[The Expanse] not everyone needs to be a compadre

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  • LanlaornLanlaorn Registered User regular
    Aistan wrote: »
    Unstoppable villains for whom their plans never fail are exceedingly boring. Spread that out episode after episode and it becomes unpleasant and interminable.

    This show isn't fun anymore.

    This is a defeat for our heroes but it's so far from an unstoppable villain who never fails.

    Also... (vague hint of future book events)
    If they don't change it you'll get a real example of unstoppable bullshit villains later and be able to see the difference lol

    Dark Raven XSyngyneJragghenThe Deliverator
  • Ninja Snarl PNinja Snarl P My helmet is my burden. Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered User regular
    Aistan wrote: »
    Unstoppable villains for whom their plans never fail are exceedingly boring. Spread that out episode after episode and it becomes unpleasant and interminable.

    This show isn't fun anymore.

    Relates to
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    Veevee wrote: »
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    Pretty sure Amos was over the horizon but I'll check later :)

    He was!
    Ep4
    The rock strikes "40km NW of Philadelphia" which is well inland and nowhere near any major rivers, which the prison is on. Even accounting for sea level rise.
    They'recounting on most people just knowing some asteroids were dumped on earth and killed [large number] and being fine with that. They're right.

    Oh, sure. And visually, it works fine! I'm just annoyed at the relatively rare science dialogue goofyness :)
    This might sound even sillier, but if you check out the concept art for the newest episode (it's in the X-Ray overview on Amazon, view all, Bonus Content, scroll down)
    it looks like Rock #2 struck directly above the prison. Like the prison itself is the impact site. :tell_me_more:

    Looking at it, that looks more like (ep5)
    Aftershocks from and earthquake and the building collapsing on itself?

    Book info
    If my memory is right, Amos came out of the jail with Peaches and was standing on the rim of the impact crater.

    I don't think they've completely ruled this out since they didn't fully zoom out. Also, there was an earlier Inaros scene with a lot of different rocks hitting from a lot of different directions. Amos' impact isn't necessary the Philly impact
    Only three got through. He mentions it later. The rock that they screwed up and threw too near the sun was #9, one got vaped so the rest either missed were blasted off screen or are still inbound.

    He was stoppable. He got stopped!
    of 9 rocks, only 3 hit. Earth intercepted another 3 due to the combined efforts of the good guys (and the chef on UN-1) and the final 3 just straight up fuckin' missed with no intervention needed.

    Marco's crew are not omniscient, unstoppable badasses. Only a third of his attack succeeded!

    I haven't even seen the new season yet and
    Inaros was almost stopped twice before everything goes down. The first time he gets away because of painfully real political dealings with people trying to forge the Belters into something useful. The second time is because Inaros is scum who uses his son as a shield and Asher, despite all the horrible things he's seen and done for the Belters, decides he'd rather die than execute Naomi's son. And Asher still fucks with Inaros' big plan.

    Inaros in the show is damned lucky to get where he does, and he doesn't get there via unstoppable foresight. Frankly, it's far more interesting than the books where he suddenly pops up with an ultra-competent organization that can out-coordinate and out-plan the Martians, Earthers, and Belters together, and somehow has every angle cornered in every situation. The show has him properly as a charismatic leader who gets lucky, instead of the way the books have him as unstoppable space god.

    LanlaornSyngyneJragghenchrono_travellerCanadianWolverineThe DeliveratorMegaMan001Zilla360autono-wally, erotibot300
  • JragghenJragghen Registered User regular
    Lanlaorn wrote: »
    Aistan wrote: »
    Unstoppable villains for whom their plans never fail are exceedingly boring. Spread that out episode after episode and it becomes unpleasant and interminable.

    This show isn't fun anymore.

    This is a defeat for our heroes but it's so far from an unstoppable villain who never fails.

    Also... (vague hint of future book events)
    If they don't change it you'll get a real example of unstoppable bullshit villains later and be able to see the difference lol

    God that book was... Not what I needed to be reading at the time.

  • Dark Raven XDark Raven X Laugh hard, run fast, be kindRegistered User regular
    Episode 6 was easily one of the best so far, what an excellent slow, mostly quiet episode.
    Absolutely loved the Razorback defence scene, Alex declaring victory while pinned to the floor was very fun.

    Avasarala's calls to Arjun getting increasingly desperate and she's starting to crack... but she doesn't have time to be grieving cause the remaining government is her and Some Guy.

    Marco's mastermind facade is slipping a lil' and the failures are racking up. Filip keeps fucking up and Marco keeps treating him like an idiot child.

    Naomi got an in with Filip, maybe she can drive a wedge in there.

    Drummer fosho knows Naomi is on the Pella now, well done Filip.

    Amos is starting to make cruel decisions without his guiding stars. His bonding with Clarissa was beautiful, and I like that she made it onto his "I'm not going to let anything happen to you" list.

    The Roci is back in action! Also the shot of the Free Navy moving out in sync was incredible.

    About the only negative I've got here is the shot of Melba going apeshit on the guy when she uses her mods. It was... a choice... I guess. Looked real bad, I preferred the simple slow mo, brute strength interpretation of S3, but I suppose they were trying to convey how it feels from her POV?

    Oh brilliant
    chrono_travellerZilla360TheBigEasyDracomicron
  • SyngyneSyngyne Registered User regular
    Episode 6 was easily one of the best so far, what an excellent slow, mostly quiet episode.
    Absolutely loved the Razorback defence scene, Alex declaring victory while pinned to the floor was very fun.

    Avasarala's calls to Arjun getting increasingly desperate and she's starting to crack... but she doesn't have time to be grieving cause the remaining government is her and Some Guy.

    Marco's mastermind facade is slipping a lil' and the failures are racking up. Filip keeps fucking up and Marco keeps treating him like an idiot child.

    Naomi got an in with Filip, maybe she can drive a wedge in there.

    Drummer fosho knows Naomi is on the Pella now, well done Filip.

    Amos is starting to make cruel decisions without his guiding stars. His bonding with Clarissa was beautiful, and I like that she made it onto his "I'm not going to let anything happen to you" list.

    The Roci is back in action! Also the shot of the Free Navy moving out in sync was incredible.

    About the only negative I've got here is the shot of Melba going apeshit on the guy when she uses her mods. It was... a choice... I guess. Looked real bad, I preferred the simple slow mo, brute strength interpretation of S3, but I suppose they were trying to convey how it feels from her POV?

    Ep 6
    Yeah, was not a fan of Peachslap. It looked like they didn’t have time to do fight choreography or something.

    5gsowHm.png
    Zilla360
  • Phoenix-DPhoenix-D Registered User regular
    Slow was not what I was hoping for with only 5 episodes left! (we watch on Friday)

  • TofystedethTofystedeth veni, veneri, vamoosi Registered User regular
    Did anyone else notice in ep 2, I think
    When Amos was first walking around Baltimore the vendor calling out that he was selling crab goulash?

    steam_sig.png
    Dark Raven XZilla360autono-wally, erotibot300
  • TheBigEasyTheBigEasy Registered User regular
    Episode 6 was easily one of the best so far, what an excellent slow, mostly quiet episode.
    Absolutely loved the Razorback defence scene, Alex declaring victory while pinned to the floor was very fun.

    Avasarala's calls to Arjun getting increasingly desperate and she's starting to crack... but she doesn't have time to be grieving cause the remaining government is her and Some Guy.

    Marco's mastermind facade is slipping a lil' and the failures are racking up. Filip keeps fucking up and Marco keeps treating him like an idiot child.

    Naomi got an in with Filip, maybe she can drive a wedge in there.

    Drummer fosho knows Naomi is on the Pella now, well done Filip.

    Amos is starting to make cruel decisions without his guiding stars. His bonding with Clarissa was beautiful, and I like that she made it onto his "I'm not going to let anything happen to you" list.

    The Roci is back in action! Also the shot of the Free Navy moving out in sync was incredible.

    About the only negative I've got here is the shot of Melba going apeshit on the guy when she uses her mods. It was... a choice... I guess. Looked real bad, I preferred the simple slow mo, brute strength interpretation of S3, but I suppose they were trying to convey how it feels from her POV?

    This was another excellent episode, and god, I love the worldbuilding in this show sooo much.

  • BlazeFireBlazeFire Registered User regular
    Amos body.... Daaaamn

    Atlas in ChainsTofystedethZilla360
  • autono-wally, erotibot300autono-wally, erotibot300 love machine Registered User regular
    Having read all the books so far, the show continues improving on them and changing most of the stuff I thought was stupid in the books!

    Current Book/Show spoilers
    -inaros in the books was wayyyyyyyy too invincible. I mean, the future laconians gave him a lot of hardware and knew they'd fuck off, so it kinda made sense that he had a lot of ships, but it was way, way too unbelievable that he did it all without anyone noticing. Even if Avasarala isn't SecGen, she's not the one watching Mars, there's whole organisations full of people on earth for that. And Fred Johnson and Drummer and Ashford, who have A LOT of friends and clout among the belters, don't get a single warning from anyone? Not one? Super unbelievable.
    A smaller operation that gradually takes over after its "success" of attacking earth makes way more sense.

    -the attack on earth makes way more sense that way if any reconciliation with anyone is ever planned. Because honestly, if earth was really basically destroyed as biosphere, the belt would be ended in retaliation, because the worlds of the expanse obviously lived after the MAD doctrine. A smaller attack like this leaves room for reason, but also works for the massive devastation the story wants to present. They already mentioned in the show that earth's biosphere is strained beyond the breaking point, and if it breaks, many more people will die from that in the future.

    -laconia. I'm still not full warmed up to it. Like... I get that the spirit of Mars was conquering the harsh conditions of Mars, and that some want to continue that.
    But then they just happen to basically run into an alien superweaons cache, manage to understand it, and overpower everyone, in the blink of an eye, after the whole show has been like "yo using this shit is dangerous as fuck!"?

    I hope the show improves on that as well.

    kFJhXwE.jpgkFJhXwE.jpg
  • autono-wally, erotibot300autono-wally, erotibot300 love machine Registered User regular
    edited January 8
    BlazeFire wrote: »
    Amos body.... Daaaamn

    Amos continues to be one of the best characters in the show. I mean he was amazing in the books I've read so far, but Wes Chatham really just.. acts him perfectly.

    There's many great actors in this show though. Shohreh Aghdashloo is just always an absolute delight to watch (and listen to!), Cara Gee and David Strathairn are phenomenal, too.

    And many others. Casting in this show is just absolute top notch and is up there with game of thrones casting imho.

    autono-wally, erotibot300 on
    kFJhXwE.jpgkFJhXwE.jpg
    honovereSteelhawkBrovid HasselsmofColanutGONG-00finnithTofystedethLindRiusDiplominatorAegisZilla360The DeliveratorPhoenix-D
  • Brovid HasselsmofBrovid Hasselsmof [Growling historic on the fury road] Registered User regular
    edited January 8
    Ep 6
    Seeing Avasarala starting to buckle was heartbreaking. As soon as that guy invited her to the meeting I said out loud "God yes put her back in charge", and then she started crying and shaking and I felt bad. Agdashloo is so good.

    Brovid Hasselsmof on
    autono-wally, erotibot300chrono_travellerDark Raven XDracomicronTofystedethTransporterSteelhawkRiusCimmeriiZilla360The DeliveratorVisskar
  • RiusRius Registered User regular
    edited January 8
    Current book spoilers (in response to autono-wally)
    Laconia doesn't just "stumble" into an alien ship/weapon cache; Duarte had access to and was paying close attention to survey data from the newly opened ring gates. He noticed the Laconia system had the protomolecule equivalent of orbital shipyards, complete with a partially built starship within one of them. And the superweapon acts much the same as the OG protomolecule did when it dissembled the science ship in book two or whatever. He brought the last active PM sample and a very smart and morally vacant scientist with him to unlock the secrets of the PM.

    Shieet, it wasn't in the blink of an eye, either. There's a gigantic time skip.

    it helps to read the books, not just skim them =P

    Rius on
  • autono-wally, erotibot300autono-wally, erotibot300 love machine Registered User regular
    edited January 8
    Rius wrote: »
    Current book spoilers (in response to autono-wally)
    Laconia doesn't just "stumble" into an alien ship/weapon cache; Duarte had access to and was paying close attention to survey data from the newly opened ring gates. He noticed the Laconia system had the protomolecule equivalent of orbital shipyards, complete with a partially built starship within one of them. And the superweapon acts much the same as the OG protomolecule did when it dissembled the science ship in book two or whatever. He brought the last active PM sample and a very smart and morally vacant scientist with him to unlock the secrets of the PM.

    Shieet, it wasn't in the blink of an eye, either. There's a gigantic time skip.

    it helps to read the books, not just skim them =P
    the time skip is in universe, not for the reader.

    and still - how is "the protomolecule equivalent of orbital shipyards, complete with a partially built starship within one of them" "doesn't just stumble"?

    it felt wayy to lucky. it took me out of the suspense of disbelief for a while, for sure.

    I did read the books, it feels a bit insulting to imply I just skimmed them, instead of arguing my point

    autono-wally, erotibot300 on
    kFJhXwE.jpgkFJhXwE.jpg
  • TofystedethTofystedeth veni, veneri, vamoosi Registered User regular
    Rius wrote: »
    Current book spoilers (in response to autono-wally)
    Laconia doesn't just "stumble" into an alien ship/weapon cache; Duarte had access to and was paying close attention to survey data from the newly opened ring gates. He noticed the Laconia system had the protomolecule equivalent of orbital shipyards, complete with a partially built starship within one of them. And the superweapon acts much the same as the OG protomolecule did when it dissembled the science ship in book two or whatever. He brought the last active PM sample and a very smart and morally vacant scientist with him to unlock the secrets of the PM.

    Shieet, it wasn't in the blink of an eye, either. There's a gigantic time skip.

    it helps to read the books, not just skim them =P
    the time skip is in universe, not for the reader.

    and still - how is "the protomolecule equivalent of orbital shipyards, complete with a partially built starship within one of them" "doesn't just stumble"?

    it felt wayy to lucky. it took me out of the suspense of disbelief for a while, for sure.

    I did read the books, it feels a bit insulting to imply I just skimmed them, instead of arguing my point
    They were saying he didn't just stumble on those facilities. They gained access to 1300+ systems, the remains of an advanced civilization that abruptly ended, and a man in a position of power and access used that to explicitly monitor scouting reports to look for exactly such a thing.

    steam_sig.png
    Dark Raven XThe Deliverator
  • RiusRius Registered User regular
    Rius wrote: »
    Current book spoilers (in response to autono-wally)
    Laconia doesn't just "stumble" into an alien ship/weapon cache; Duarte had access to and was paying close attention to survey data from the newly opened ring gates. He noticed the Laconia system had the protomolecule equivalent of orbital shipyards, complete with a partially built starship within one of them. And the superweapon acts much the same as the OG protomolecule did when it dissembled the science ship in book two or whatever. He brought the last active PM sample and a very smart and morally vacant scientist with him to unlock the secrets of the PM.

    Shieet, it wasn't in the blink of an eye, either. There's a gigantic time skip.

    it helps to read the books, not just skim them =P
    the time skip is in universe, not for the reader.

    and still - how is "the protomolecule equivalent of orbital shipyards, complete with a partially built starship within one of them" "doesn't just stumble"?

    it felt wayy to lucky. it took me out of the suspense of disbelief for a while, for sure.

    I did read the books, it feels a bit insulting to imply I just skimmed them, instead of arguing my point
    No, they did not "just stumble" across the PM shipyards. There were over 1300 systems opened up when the ring gates all opened; at least one of them was going to be where the PM builders actually built things, and that system was going to be surveyed eventually. This is not hard to believe. The closest real world scenario matching what happened to the PM aliens is Pompeii, a city suddenly buried under volcanic ash where excavations have shown preserved half-set dinner tables and shit, half-eaten meals. The alien race that took out the PM aliens did so in a way that swiftly and totally incapacitated them; of course there's gonna be all sorts of half-built stuff lying around.

  • autono-wally, erotibot300autono-wally, erotibot300 love machine Registered User regular
    Rius wrote: »
    Rius wrote: »
    Current book spoilers (in response to autono-wally)
    Laconia doesn't just "stumble" into an alien ship/weapon cache; Duarte had access to and was paying close attention to survey data from the newly opened ring gates. He noticed the Laconia system had the protomolecule equivalent of orbital shipyards, complete with a partially built starship within one of them. And the superweapon acts much the same as the OG protomolecule did when it dissembled the science ship in book two or whatever. He brought the last active PM sample and a very smart and morally vacant scientist with him to unlock the secrets of the PM.

    Shieet, it wasn't in the blink of an eye, either. There's a gigantic time skip.

    it helps to read the books, not just skim them =P
    the time skip is in universe, not for the reader.

    and still - how is "the protomolecule equivalent of orbital shipyards, complete with a partially built starship within one of them" "doesn't just stumble"?

    it felt wayy to lucky. it took me out of the suspense of disbelief for a while, for sure.

    I did read the books, it feels a bit insulting to imply I just skimmed them, instead of arguing my point
    No, they did not "just stumble" across the PM shipyards. There were over 1300 systems opened up when the ring gates all opened; at least one of them was going to be where the PM builders actually built things, and that system was going to be surveyed eventually. This is not hard to believe. The closest real world scenario matching what happened to the PM aliens is Pompeii, a city suddenly buried under volcanic ash where excavations have shown preserved half-set dinner tables and shit, half-eaten meals. The alien race that took out the PM aliens did so in a way that swiftly and totally incapacitated them; of course there's gonna be all sorts of half-built stuff lying around.

    That all just sounds like post fact justification to me
    much like inaros, it came out of nowhere, and felt like a "enemy" created by an author, not an organic thing.

    Which grated me more in the expanse, because the rest of the stuff happens relatively naturally

    It's just personal preference though probably.

    kFJhXwE.jpgkFJhXwE.jpg
  • mrondeaumrondeau Montréal, CanadaRegistered User regular
    Rius wrote: »
    Rius wrote: »
    Current book spoilers (in response to autono-wally)
    Laconia doesn't just "stumble" into an alien ship/weapon cache; Duarte had access to and was paying close attention to survey data from the newly opened ring gates. He noticed the Laconia system had the protomolecule equivalent of orbital shipyards, complete with a partially built starship within one of them. And the superweapon acts much the same as the OG protomolecule did when it dissembled the science ship in book two or whatever. He brought the last active PM sample and a very smart and morally vacant scientist with him to unlock the secrets of the PM.

    Shieet, it wasn't in the blink of an eye, either. There's a gigantic time skip.

    it helps to read the books, not just skim them =P
    the time skip is in universe, not for the reader.

    and still - how is "the protomolecule equivalent of orbital shipyards, complete with a partially built starship within one of them" "doesn't just stumble"?

    it felt wayy to lucky. it took me out of the suspense of disbelief for a while, for sure.

    I did read the books, it feels a bit insulting to imply I just skimmed them, instead of arguing my point
    No, they did not "just stumble" across the PM shipyards. There were over 1300 systems opened up when the ring gates all opened; at least one of them was going to be where the PM builders actually built things, and that system was going to be surveyed eventually. This is not hard to believe. The closest real world scenario matching what happened to the PM aliens is Pompeii, a city suddenly buried under volcanic ash where excavations have shown preserved half-set dinner tables and shit, half-eaten meals. The alien race that took out the PM aliens did so in a way that swiftly and totally incapacitated them; of course there's gonna be all sorts of half-built stuff lying around.

    That all just sounds like post fact justification to me
    much like inaros, it came out of nowhere, and felt like a "enemy" created by an author, not an organic thing.

    Which grated me more in the expanse, because the rest of the stuff happens relatively naturally

    It's just personal preference though probably.
    Laconia is supposed to be a pure OCP, and OCPs are only possible with if the authors force them. If they are seen coming, they are not OCPs.

    Whether or not having an OCP there is another question. Personally, it fails under willing suspension of disbelief, in part because of the immediate deconstruction of the whole project and "hard men making hard decisions".

  • autono-wally, erotibot300autono-wally, erotibot300 love machine Registered User regular
    mrondeau wrote: »
    Rius wrote: »
    Rius wrote: »
    Current book spoilers (in response to autono-wally)
    Laconia doesn't just "stumble" into an alien ship/weapon cache; Duarte had access to and was paying close attention to survey data from the newly opened ring gates. He noticed the Laconia system had the protomolecule equivalent of orbital shipyards, complete with a partially built starship within one of them. And the superweapon acts much the same as the OG protomolecule did when it dissembled the science ship in book two or whatever. He brought the last active PM sample and a very smart and morally vacant scientist with him to unlock the secrets of the PM.

    Shieet, it wasn't in the blink of an eye, either. There's a gigantic time skip.

    it helps to read the books, not just skim them =P
    the time skip is in universe, not for the reader.

    and still - how is "the protomolecule equivalent of orbital shipyards, complete with a partially built starship within one of them" "doesn't just stumble"?

    it felt wayy to lucky. it took me out of the suspense of disbelief for a while, for sure.

    I did read the books, it feels a bit insulting to imply I just skimmed them, instead of arguing my point
    No, they did not "just stumble" across the PM shipyards. There were over 1300 systems opened up when the ring gates all opened; at least one of them was going to be where the PM builders actually built things, and that system was going to be surveyed eventually. This is not hard to believe. The closest real world scenario matching what happened to the PM aliens is Pompeii, a city suddenly buried under volcanic ash where excavations have shown preserved half-set dinner tables and shit, half-eaten meals. The alien race that took out the PM aliens did so in a way that swiftly and totally incapacitated them; of course there's gonna be all sorts of half-built stuff lying around.

    That all just sounds like post fact justification to me
    much like inaros, it came out of nowhere, and felt like a "enemy" created by an author, not an organic thing.

    Which grated me more in the expanse, because the rest of the stuff happens relatively naturally

    It's just personal preference though probably.
    Laconia is supposed to be a pure OCP, and OCPs are only possible with if the authors force them. If they are seen coming, they are not OCPs.

    Whether or not having an OCP there is another question. Personally, it fails under willing suspension of disbelief, in part because of the immediate deconstruction of the whole project and "hard men making hard decisions".
    The point being is that it's a comical OCP, in that it's basically a real life villain superweapon- it felt too out of sync with the rest of the story to me.

    kFJhXwE.jpgkFJhXwE.jpg
  • mrondeaumrondeau Montréal, CanadaRegistered User regular
    mrondeau wrote: »
    Rius wrote: »
    Rius wrote: »
    Current book spoilers (in response to autono-wally)
    Laconia doesn't just "stumble" into an alien ship/weapon cache; Duarte had access to and was paying close attention to survey data from the newly opened ring gates. He noticed the Laconia system had the protomolecule equivalent of orbital shipyards, complete with a partially built starship within one of them. And the superweapon acts much the same as the OG protomolecule did when it dissembled the science ship in book two or whatever. He brought the last active PM sample and a very smart and morally vacant scientist with him to unlock the secrets of the PM.

    Shieet, it wasn't in the blink of an eye, either. There's a gigantic time skip.

    it helps to read the books, not just skim them =P
    the time skip is in universe, not for the reader.

    and still - how is "the protomolecule equivalent of orbital shipyards, complete with a partially built starship within one of them" "doesn't just stumble"?

    it felt wayy to lucky. it took me out of the suspense of disbelief for a while, for sure.

    I did read the books, it feels a bit insulting to imply I just skimmed them, instead of arguing my point
    No, they did not "just stumble" across the PM shipyards. There were over 1300 systems opened up when the ring gates all opened; at least one of them was going to be where the PM builders actually built things, and that system was going to be surveyed eventually. This is not hard to believe. The closest real world scenario matching what happened to the PM aliens is Pompeii, a city suddenly buried under volcanic ash where excavations have shown preserved half-set dinner tables and shit, half-eaten meals. The alien race that took out the PM aliens did so in a way that swiftly and totally incapacitated them; of course there's gonna be all sorts of half-built stuff lying around.

    That all just sounds like post fact justification to me
    much like inaros, it came out of nowhere, and felt like a "enemy" created by an author, not an organic thing.

    Which grated me more in the expanse, because the rest of the stuff happens relatively naturally

    It's just personal preference though probably.
    Laconia is supposed to be a pure OCP, and OCPs are only possible with if the authors force them. If they are seen coming, they are not OCPs.

    Whether or not having an OCP there is another question. Personally, it fails under willing suspension of disbelief, in part because of the immediate deconstruction of the whole project and "hard men making hard decisions".
    The point being is that it's a comical OCP, in that it's basically a real life villain superweapon- it felt too out of sync with the rest of the story to me.


    That how that works, yes. Can't really have one without the other.
    I'm actually curious to see how the show will handle that. I'm expecting that this whole angle will be cut.

  • autono-wally, erotibot300autono-wally, erotibot300 love machine Registered User regular
    mrondeau wrote: »
    mrondeau wrote: »
    Rius wrote: »
    Rius wrote: »
    Current book spoilers (in response to autono-wally)
    Laconia doesn't just "stumble" into an alien ship/weapon cache; Duarte had access to and was paying close attention to survey data from the newly opened ring gates. He noticed the Laconia system had the protomolecule equivalent of orbital shipyards, complete with a partially built starship within one of them. And the superweapon acts much the same as the OG protomolecule did when it dissembled the science ship in book two or whatever. He brought the last active PM sample and a very smart and morally vacant scientist with him to unlock the secrets of the PM.

    Shieet, it wasn't in the blink of an eye, either. There's a gigantic time skip.

    it helps to read the books, not just skim them =P
    the time skip is in universe, not for the reader.

    and still - how is "the protomolecule equivalent of orbital shipyards, complete with a partially built starship within one of them" "doesn't just stumble"?

    it felt wayy to lucky. it took me out of the suspense of disbelief for a while, for sure.

    I did read the books, it feels a bit insulting to imply I just skimmed them, instead of arguing my point
    No, they did not "just stumble" across the PM shipyards. There were over 1300 systems opened up when the ring gates all opened; at least one of them was going to be where the PM builders actually built things, and that system was going to be surveyed eventually. This is not hard to believe. The closest real world scenario matching what happened to the PM aliens is Pompeii, a city suddenly buried under volcanic ash where excavations have shown preserved half-set dinner tables and shit, half-eaten meals. The alien race that took out the PM aliens did so in a way that swiftly and totally incapacitated them; of course there's gonna be all sorts of half-built stuff lying around.

    That all just sounds like post fact justification to me
    much like inaros, it came out of nowhere, and felt like a "enemy" created by an author, not an organic thing.

    Which grated me more in the expanse, because the rest of the stuff happens relatively naturally

    It's just personal preference though probably.
    Laconia is supposed to be a pure OCP, and OCPs are only possible with if the authors force them. If they are seen coming, they are not OCPs.

    Whether or not having an OCP there is another question. Personally, it fails under willing suspension of disbelief, in part because of the immediate deconstruction of the whole project and "hard men making hard decisions".
    The point being is that it's a comical OCP, in that it's basically a real life villain superweapon- it felt too out of sync with the rest of the story to me.


    That how that works, yes. Can't really have one without the other.
    I'm actually curious to see how the show will handle that. I'm expecting that this whole angle will be cut.

    you can totally
    do OCP without them being comical superweapons. the whole protomatter thing was basically that!

    kFJhXwE.jpgkFJhXwE.jpg
    Lanlaorn
  • mrondeaumrondeau Montréal, CanadaRegistered User regular
    mrondeau wrote: »
    mrondeau wrote: »
    Rius wrote: »
    Rius wrote: »
    Current book spoilers (in response to autono-wally)
    Laconia doesn't just "stumble" into an alien ship/weapon cache; Duarte had access to and was paying close attention to survey data from the newly opened ring gates. He noticed the Laconia system had the protomolecule equivalent of orbital shipyards, complete with a partially built starship within one of them. And the superweapon acts much the same as the OG protomolecule did when it dissembled the science ship in book two or whatever. He brought the last active PM sample and a very smart and morally vacant scientist with him to unlock the secrets of the PM.

    Shieet, it wasn't in the blink of an eye, either. There's a gigantic time skip.

    it helps to read the books, not just skim them =P
    the time skip is in universe, not for the reader.

    and still - how is "the protomolecule equivalent of orbital shipyards, complete with a partially built starship within one of them" "doesn't just stumble"?

    it felt wayy to lucky. it took me out of the suspense of disbelief for a while, for sure.

    I did read the books, it feels a bit insulting to imply I just skimmed them, instead of arguing my point
    No, they did not "just stumble" across the PM shipyards. There were over 1300 systems opened up when the ring gates all opened; at least one of them was going to be where the PM builders actually built things, and that system was going to be surveyed eventually. This is not hard to believe. The closest real world scenario matching what happened to the PM aliens is Pompeii, a city suddenly buried under volcanic ash where excavations have shown preserved half-set dinner tables and shit, half-eaten meals. The alien race that took out the PM aliens did so in a way that swiftly and totally incapacitated them; of course there's gonna be all sorts of half-built stuff lying around.

    That all just sounds like post fact justification to me
    much like inaros, it came out of nowhere, and felt like a "enemy" created by an author, not an organic thing.

    Which grated me more in the expanse, because the rest of the stuff happens relatively naturally

    It's just personal preference though probably.
    Laconia is supposed to be a pure OCP, and OCPs are only possible with if the authors force them. If they are seen coming, they are not OCPs.

    Whether or not having an OCP there is another question. Personally, it fails under willing suspension of disbelief, in part because of the immediate deconstruction of the whole project and "hard men making hard decisions".
    The point being is that it's a comical OCP, in that it's basically a real life villain superweapon- it felt too out of sync with the rest of the story to me.


    That how that works, yes. Can't really have one without the other.
    I'm actually curious to see how the show will handle that. I'm expecting that this whole angle will be cut.

    you can totally
    do OCP without them being comical superweapons. the whole protomatter thing was basically that!
    The protomolecule is a comical superweapon. In fact, it's a whole clown-tank of ridiculous superweapons.
    Like Laconia, it's jarring and forcibly inserted into the setting. That's the point!

    The only difference is that it's inserted over about 2 books, while Laconia is inserted over 1 book and a bunch of novella.

  • autono-wally, erotibot300autono-wally, erotibot300 love machine Registered User regular
    mrondeau wrote: »
    mrondeau wrote: »
    mrondeau wrote: »
    Rius wrote: »
    Rius wrote: »
    Current book spoilers (in response to autono-wally)
    Laconia doesn't just "stumble" into an alien ship/weapon cache; Duarte had access to and was paying close attention to survey data from the newly opened ring gates. He noticed the Laconia system had the protomolecule equivalent of orbital shipyards, complete with a partially built starship within one of them. And the superweapon acts much the same as the OG protomolecule did when it dissembled the science ship in book two or whatever. He brought the last active PM sample and a very smart and morally vacant scientist with him to unlock the secrets of the PM.

    Shieet, it wasn't in the blink of an eye, either. There's a gigantic time skip.

    it helps to read the books, not just skim them =P
    the time skip is in universe, not for the reader.

    and still - how is "the protomolecule equivalent of orbital shipyards, complete with a partially built starship within one of them" "doesn't just stumble"?

    it felt wayy to lucky. it took me out of the suspense of disbelief for a while, for sure.

    I did read the books, it feels a bit insulting to imply I just skimmed them, instead of arguing my point
    No, they did not "just stumble" across the PM shipyards. There were over 1300 systems opened up when the ring gates all opened; at least one of them was going to be where the PM builders actually built things, and that system was going to be surveyed eventually. This is not hard to believe. The closest real world scenario matching what happened to the PM aliens is Pompeii, a city suddenly buried under volcanic ash where excavations have shown preserved half-set dinner tables and shit, half-eaten meals. The alien race that took out the PM aliens did so in a way that swiftly and totally incapacitated them; of course there's gonna be all sorts of half-built stuff lying around.

    That all just sounds like post fact justification to me
    much like inaros, it came out of nowhere, and felt like a "enemy" created by an author, not an organic thing.

    Which grated me more in the expanse, because the rest of the stuff happens relatively naturally

    It's just personal preference though probably.
    Laconia is supposed to be a pure OCP, and OCPs are only possible with if the authors force them. If they are seen coming, they are not OCPs.

    Whether or not having an OCP there is another question. Personally, it fails under willing suspension of disbelief, in part because of the immediate deconstruction of the whole project and "hard men making hard decisions".
    The point being is that it's a comical OCP, in that it's basically a real life villain superweapon- it felt too out of sync with the rest of the story to me.


    That how that works, yes. Can't really have one without the other.
    I'm actually curious to see how the show will handle that. I'm expecting that this whole angle will be cut.

    you can totally
    do OCP without them being comical superweapons. the whole protomatter thing was basically that!
    The protomolecule is a comical superweapon. In fact, it's a whole clown-tank of ridiculous superweapons.
    Like Laconia, it's jarring and forcibly inserted into the setting. That's the point!

    The only difference is that it's inserted over about 2 books, while Laconia is inserted over 1 book and a bunch of novella.
    the protomolecule was dangerous, and outside context for everyone

    laconia was "oh here's a timewarp. we found a nazi alien superweapon, and are now invincible

    it just felt bullshit to me.

    it could've been done way better if the laconian stuff was way more instable than it was in the books.

    would a) make it more sensible, story wise, and would b) make beating them possible without contrievance.

    kFJhXwE.jpgkFJhXwE.jpg
    Lanlaorn
  • RiusRius Registered User regular
    edited January 8
    So when the protomolecule disassembles a science ship right down to individual bolts, it's not comical because it's aliens. But when humans (over a period of 30 years) examine that technology and build a weapon that replicates the effects (which we already "know" are possible), suddenly it's a comical superweapon? What?

    How do you think people living in the mid-40s thought about nuclear weapons? Those gosh darn Americans with their comical superweapons. One bomb that can wipe out an entire city? That's totally unrealistic.

    Rius on
  • autono-wally, erotibot300autono-wally, erotibot300 love machine Registered User regular
    Rius wrote: »
    So when the protomolecule disassembles a science ship right down to individual bolts, it's not comical because it's aliens. But when humans (over a period of 30 years) examine that technology and build a weapon that replicates the effects (which we already "know" are possible), suddenly it's a comical superweapon? What?

    How do you think people living in the mid-40s thought about nuclear weapons? Those gosh darn Americans with their comical superweapons. One bomb that can wipe out an entire city? That's totally unrealistic.
    no, it's not comical, because it's a proper outside context problem, it drivers conflict, story, and characters.

    comical is when that outside context proble is only outside context for a part of the people, and these people basically needed that OCP to be where it is and be WHAT it is to ever survive.

    It feels like a constructed story for a book, not a real thing

    And nuclear weapons were not ocp. Every participant in WW2 had physicists who suspected something like that was possible, and general physical knowledge was not far off.

    Laconia is like a caveman finding a modern weapons production facility and then a few decades later they're suddenly able to fly around in stealth bombers.

    the risk/jankiness of the laconian stuff was way, way to low.

    kFJhXwE.jpgkFJhXwE.jpg
  • RiusRius Registered User regular
    I dunno man, it keeps coming back to "man who hates a thing continues to engage with multiple versions of said thing" for me

  • autono-wally, erotibot300autono-wally, erotibot300 love machine Registered User regular
    edited January 8
    Rius wrote: »
    I dunno man, it keeps coming back to "man who hates a thing continues to engage with multiple versions of said thing" for me
    Having read all the books so far, the show continues improving on them and changing most of the stuff I thought was stupid in the books!

    I liked the books. The show still improved on them. And the authors planned to do that, and are following my thinking, so far.

    My point was that I hope they continue along those lines.

    Edit: There's VERY few books I've read which didn't have some things I found stupid. I still like them if everything isn't perfect, because, what is?

    autono-wally, erotibot300 on
    kFJhXwE.jpgkFJhXwE.jpg
  • LanlaornLanlaorn Registered User regular
    Autono-wally is correct, that storyline in the books felt like
    Battlefield Earth the movie, where hunter-gatherer bros with no concept of technology learn to fly harrier jets after an afternoon in a simulator.

    The ringbuilder's technology is so far beyond us that we'd still be trying to build the tools that hopefully allow us to build the tools that can then begin to study how their stuff works.

    Even having a fully automated orbital shipyard gift wrapped for you, imagine letting some ancient egyptians into a car factory. How long do they spend even trying to understand what they're looking at, let alone blindly attempting to translate the language on the computers - better hope there's a Rosetta Stone lying around somewhere! They don't even have a concept of electricity beyond lightning! The alien tools are just so wildly advanced that we don't even have basic theories for how they'd work, it's really jarring.

    And the Laconians didn't just figure out how to turn this machinery on to produce another generic alien ship it had in its production queue, if another ringbuilding SCV came out then ok sure, they made their own custom ships specifically tailored to human occupancy!

    The best way to make this believable is to have Duarte figure out a way to become a Miller-esque ghost in the protomolecule network by letting himself become assimilated, it's a crazy gamble that speaks to his fanaticism, and having him reign as a disembodied AI would work well for his delusions of God-Emperor status vs. the Laconians magically creating an immortal, telepathic transhuman ubermensch. And then ok sure, the Laconians have some understanding of protomolecule technology because they have a man on the inside who can read the manuals.

    autono-wally, erotibot300triconZilla360
  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. 5386-8443-8937Registered User regular
    Holden is so much more Lawful Dumb in the books

    wq09t4opzrlc.jpg
    VishNubautono-wally, erotibot300chrono_travellerMonwynThe Deliverator
  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    metaghost wrote: »

    Full Season, future show speculation for non-readers:
    So what's the angle here for Mars? The Martian officer seed to think he was furthering Martian interests by helping the belters, but
    I'm not seeing how 'roiding Earth translates to revitalizing Martian development?

    Are they just seeking to overthrow the UN in order expand through the ring without constraint; leaving Mars itself behind? That comports with a certain definition of "the dream of Mars," or: a world for themselves, even if not specifically Mars.

    My non-reader thoughts:
    I wasn't sure Mars had an angle — rather that the season wanted to hammer home how Martian identity & unity had been thoroughly eroded in the aftermath of the ring, such that collusion with Belter operatives was less about furthering Martian ambitions and more about Martian society (as expressed in technology and certain people) being subsumed into the greater interstellar humanity with little regard for how that would benefit their society or anyone else's. I think the Officer's perspective on "furthering Martian interests" was largely one of delusions to obscure selfish motivations, or a sort of revolutionary gamble to try and "reveal" to the Martian populace the "truth" of their circumstances and get them motivated to move beyond their dream of a terraformed Mars.

    Non Reader thoguths
    BlazeFire wrote: »
    Amos body.... Daaaamn

    Amos continues to be one of the best characters in the show. I mean he was amazing in the books I've read so far, but Wes Chatham really just.. acts him perfectly.

    There's many great actors in this show though. Shohreh Aghdashloo is just always an absolute delight to watch (and listen to!), Cara Gee and David Strathairn are phenomenal, too.

    And many others. Casting in this show is just absolute top notch and is up there with game of thrones casting imho.

    No that they're on Amazon they can swear properly!

  • MegaMan001MegaMan001 CRNA Rochester, MNRegistered User regular
    Book Thoughts
    The whole Laconian thing felt half baked at best. I thought it was somewhat lame? But, I also thought if you considered the pre time skip as the Expanse and post time skip as like...maybe a Star Trek movie it was fine.

    Show Thoughts
    The show continues to smooth out, fix, or just delete the parts of the books I had issues with and somehow simultaneously increasing the presence of parts I really liked. I would compare it to Game of Thrones seasons 2-4?

    Basically, the books are good, but th show benefits by one, having a writers room and two, being filmed so much later than the book release so the showrunners can hone in on what the original authors wanted and fix some missteps.

    Or in the case of Drummer and Cara Gee just surrender themselves to the absolutely magical moment when perfect casting meets perfect character and seeing where it takes them.

    I am in the business of saving lives.
    mrondeauMonwynautono-wally, erotibot300Dark Raven XJragghen
  • Brovid HasselsmofBrovid Hasselsmof [Growling historic on the fury road] Registered User regular
    edited January 9
    Drummer is great. I keep forgetting she isn't in the books. The person/s who invented her deserve a medal.

    Show Ashford also was 1000% better than book Ashford.

    I miss Dawes because I loved him too. I don't know if he'll ever show up again but I hope he does. Kinda weird that he's just disappeared when he was such a big Belt guy, but maybe it's just Jared Harris couldn't do it any more?

    Brovid Hasselsmof on
    honovereJragghenDecatusZilla360
  • Dark Raven XDark Raven X Laugh hard, run fast, be kindRegistered User regular
    edited January 9
    Drummer is in the books! Just as much smaller character. She first appears in Book 5. S5E1
    in pretty much the role Bull has in the show. It's funny, they had Drummer absorb Bull's role in S3, now it's finally time for Drummer's debut, they bring Bull in for it. :p

    As for Dawes - he just doesn't have much of a role to play in S3 or S4, and Jared Harris has blown up a lil' bit in the meantime. Only place he would fit is as tiny lil' video cameos or as replacing another main character, I think? I do hope he gets at least one episode in S6 though.

    Dark Raven X on
    Oh brilliant
    chrono_travellerJragghen
  • Brovid HasselsmofBrovid Hasselsmof [Growling historic on the fury road] Registered User regular
    edited January 9
    Actually I don't think I understood that properly

    Brovid Hasselsmof on
  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    I also gotta say I'm always impressed with their version of Belter language and accents. Its consistent but varied enough to be interesting.

    Nice touch this season Naomi has definitely slipped back into the accent more.

    SteelhawkDark Raven XJragghenCanadianWolverineZilla360
  • TofystedethTofystedeth veni, veneri, vamoosi Registered User regular
    Drummer is in the books! Just as much smaller character. She first appears in Book 5. S5E1
    in pretty much the role Bull has in the show. It's funny, they had Drummer absorb Bull's role in S3, now it's finally time for Drummer's debut, they bring Bull in for it. :p

    As for Dawes - he just doesn't have much of a role to play in S3 or S4, and Jared Harris has blown up a lil' bit in the meantime. Only place he would fit is as tiny lil' video cameos or as replacing another main character, I think? I do hope he gets at least one episode in S6 though.
    Drummer seems to also be positioned to move into Michio Pa's role from the books, though she does have a Michio in her crew.

    steam_sig.png
    Dark Raven XJragghenDracomicronThe Deliverator
  • MegaMan001MegaMan001 CRNA Rochester, MNRegistered User regular
    I also gotta say I'm always impressed with their version of Belter language and accents. Its consistent but varied enough to be interesting.

    Nice touch this season Naomi has definitely slipped back into the accent more.

    Naomi code switching is just so goddamn cooooooooool

    I am in the business of saving lives.
    DevoutlyApatheticFeloniousmozDark Raven XGONG-00DracomicronThe DeliveratorTransporterZilla360
  • JragghenJragghen Registered User regular
    Drummer is in the books! Just as much smaller character. She first appears in Book 5. S5E1
    in pretty much the role Bull has in the show. It's funny, they had Drummer absorb Bull's role in S3, now it's finally time for Drummer's debut, they bring Bull in for it. :p

    As for Dawes - he just doesn't have much of a role to play in S3 or S4, and Jared Harris has blown up a lil' bit in the meantime. Only place he would fit is as tiny lil' video cameos or as replacing another main character, I think? I do hope he gets at least one episode in S6 though.
    Drummer seems to also be positioned to move into Michio Pa's role from the books, though she does have a Michio in her crew.

    Yeah, since...S3? That's basically where I assumed she'd end up.

    Serious book spoilers
    the scene with Holden praising her when she thinks he's talking about himself is going to be SO GOOD

    Dark Raven X
  • JragghenJragghen Registered User regular
    Also Cara Gee is an amazing actress. Drummer is like a completely different person.

    autono-wally, erotibot300DracomicronTofystedethCanadianWolverineMegaMan001Zilla360scherbchen
  • chrono_travellerchrono_traveller Registered User regular
    edited January 10
    MegaMan001 wrote: »
    I also gotta say I'm always impressed with their version of Belter language and accents. Its consistent but varied enough to be interesting.

    Nice touch this season Naomi has definitely slipped back into the accent more.

    Naomi code switching is just so goddamn cooooooooool

    There was a great interview with Tipper on the Expanse podcast back in season 2(or 3?) about how Tipper really drew on a lot of her own life with respect to the accents. She talked about coming from a poorer area of Britain that can be identified by her native accent, and how she learned to switch out of that when going into formal or professional events, and that she would just naturally slip back into that accent when with her family and close friends. It was a very insightful episode.

    chrono_traveller on
    The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it. ~ Terry Pratchett
    Dark Raven Xautono-wally, erotibot300VishNubCanadianWolverineZilla360
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