For real, I think it comes down to “does Lebron still have Finals God juice left in the tank” and/or how does AD respond
Though the fact that it’s a bubble finals vs the real one probably has a huge impact on both- maybe Lebron doesn’t have the same adrenaline level to power him to absurd heights and AD doesn’t have the same intensity fueling “first-Finals-nerves”...
The bench has done a phenomenal job of locking JR down. Dont see why it would stop now.
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Raijin QuickfootI'm your Huckleberry YOU'RE NO DAISYRegistered User, ClubPAregular
Lebron is Lebron. Best you can do is hope to slow him down a bit so he doesn’t win the game on his own.
AD is AD. Bam could slow him down but again, you aren’t stopping him.
If Dwight Howard plays well I have no idea who is going to stop him on the Heat roster. Olynyk? Leonard? Haslem? Not likely on any front.
Lakers bench goes long and deep.
I just can’t see Miami keeping it up.
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ButtersA glass of some milksRegistered Userregular
edited September 2020
You obviously can't shut down a superstar but if Bam can't keep AD below his playoff average of 29 pts a game then they have next to zero chance of winning.
LeBron will get his, he always does. AD getting his is the variable here.
Real talk: Doc Rivers has been riding off of that 2008 title for a long time, but it's pretty clear he's an average coach who gets constantly worked by his better peers in the playoffs. That said, a new coach isn't going to fix the glaring issues the Clippers roster has at the moment, from a lack of size inside to a lack of a true point guard.
And now the goofy hot take: Jerry West could take lessons on how to build a roster from Rob Pelinka.
Real talk: Doc Rivers has been riding off of that 2008 title for a long time, but it's pretty clear he's an average coach who gets constantly worked by his better peers in the playoffs. That said, a new coach isn't going to fix the glaring issues the Clippers roster has at the moment, from a lack of size inside to a lack of a true point guard.
And now the goofy hot take: Jerry West could take lessons on how to build a roster from Rob Pelinka.
Every free agent based super team has growing pains. It took the LeBron-Wade-Bosh Heat a year to figure it out, the KG-Allen-Pierce Celtics were taken to 7 games in the first two rounds of the playoffs, and the return Cavs didn't really gel until halfway through 2016. I also don't know how you blame Rivers for Paul George missing tons of open threes. Doc has his faults but I don't think you can put too much of their elimination on him.
I dont fully disagree with your main point, but your comparisons there are 2 teams that made the finals and another that won the title, in their first year. The cavs were leading in the finals despite losing 2 of their 3 superteammates to injury. You want to compare them to a Clips team who blew a 3-1 lead to lose in the second round to a team that barely survived the first round and subsequently lost in 5 the next round. That doesn't really work for me.
In fact, are there any recent free agent super teams that didn't make the finals and won a title later? I think the more apt comparison might be Lob City, Russ PG Melo OKC, Harden CP3 clips, or Kobe Pau Nash Dwight Lakers. Teams with impressive but not overwhelming on paper talent that never click and subsequently dissolve having won nothing.
Keep in mind, despite all the attention and hype for the clips under Doc Rivers, the Blazers havr won more playoff series and gotten deeper during that time period and no one really considers them a raging success.
Real talk: Doc Rivers has been riding off of that 2008 title for a long time, but it's pretty clear he's an average coach who gets constantly worked by his better peers in the playoffs. That said, a new coach isn't going to fix the glaring issues the Clippers roster has at the moment, from a lack of size inside to a lack of a true point guard.
And now the goofy hot take: Jerry West could take lessons on how to build a roster from Rob Pelinka.
Every free agent based super team has growing pains. It took the LeBron-Wade-Bosh Heat a year to figure it out, the KG-Allen-Pierce Celtics were taken to 7 games in the first two rounds of the playoffs, and the return Cavs didn't really gel until halfway through 2016. I also don't know how you blame Rivers for Paul George missing tons of open threes. Doc has his faults but I don't think you can put too much of their elimination on him.
Doc absolutely has his share of the blame for that collapse. For example, if he stopped playing Montrezz Harrell like everyone in the world said he should do in Game 5 and instead gave Zubac, the only Clipper able to do anything of note defensively against Jokic, more of those minutes, there's a pretty good chance the Clippers advance. Or figuring out how to stagger minutes earlier in the game to give his clearly-tired team the energy they needed late-game (as was noticeable by game 5 again).
And there's a difference between "growing pains" and "never got on the same page despite having a whole year to figure it out". It's a superstar league, but it doesn't feel like Doc was ever able to get the team on the same page, especially getting the buy-in from his two stars to allow for that cohesiveness to occur. Compare that to Frank Vogel this year, who is 1) a new coach on a team that 2) is integrating a second megastar along with 3) a ton of other combustible factors to deal with (Dwight, Rondo, Javale, getting saddled with Jason "Littlefinger" Kidd as an assistant, not being management's first choice) and still got everyone to buy in to his system, and now they're the NBA Finals favorites. That's on the coaching staff, especially Doc.
But like I said, Doc was a symptom. The Clippers had a broken roster to begin with, and it ain't getting fixed easily.
Compare that to Frank Vogel this year, who is 1) a new coach on a team that 2) is integrating a second megastar along with 3) a ton of other combustible factors to deal with (Dwight, Rondo, Javale, getting saddled with Jason "Littlefinger" Kidd as an assistant, not being management's first choice) and still got everyone to buy in to his system, and now they're the NBA Finals favorites.
I didn't follow the Lakers all that much during the season before the pandemic - what happened in LA in regards to coaching and why did he get saddled with Kidd?
I dont fully disagree with your main point, but your comparisons there are 2 teams that made the finals and another that won the title, in their first year. The cavs were leading in the finals despite losing 2 of their 3 superteammates to injury. You want to compare them to a Clips team who blew a 3-1 lead to lose in the second round to a team that barely survived the first round and subsequently lost in 5 the next round. That doesn't really work for me.
In fact, are there any recent free agent super teams that didn't make the finals and won a title later? I think the more apt comparison might be Lob City, Russ PG Melo OKC, Harden CP3 clips, or Kobe Pau Nash Dwight Lakers. Teams with impressive but not overwhelming on paper talent that never click and subsequently dissolve having won nothing.
Keep in mind, despite all the attention and hype for the clips under Doc Rivers, the Blazers havr won more playoff series and gotten deeper during that time period and no one really considers them a raging success.
Maybe I'm underestimating Doc's screwups but I still think with PG disappearing from that series and the game-to-game limitations of Leonard, it's possible they lost to a better team despite the 3-1 lead. Somebody mentioned Zubac needed more minutes but he got around 30 in games 5 and 6 and they still lost those games. Jokic is really fucking good and they didn't have anyone that could guard him effectively.
Compare that to Frank Vogel this year, who is 1) a new coach on a team that 2) is integrating a second megastar along with 3) a ton of other combustible factors to deal with (Dwight, Rondo, Javale, getting saddled with Jason "Littlefinger" Kidd as an assistant, not being management's first choice) and still got everyone to buy in to his system, and now they're the NBA Finals favorites.
I didn't follow the Lakers all that much during the season before the pandemic - what happened in LA in regards to coaching and why did he get saddled with Kidd?
If I recall, taking Kidd on staff was a condition of taking the HC job
Maybe its hard for Doc to get the team to gel since his second star was seriously dating his daughter until he cheated on her by impregnation a sex worker whom he offered 1 mil dollars to abort the fetus (but, i guess they are all together and happy now, so good for them). Not trying to be too judgey, but i could see why it could be hard to be all Ubuntu after that.
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ButtersA glass of some milksRegistered Userregular
Compare that to Frank Vogel this year, who is 1) a new coach on a team that 2) is integrating a second megastar along with 3) a ton of other combustible factors to deal with (Dwight, Rondo, Javale, getting saddled with Jason "Littlefinger" Kidd as an assistant, not being management's first choice) and still got everyone to buy in to his system, and now they're the NBA Finals favorites.
I didn't follow the Lakers all that much during the season before the pandemic - what happened in LA in regards to coaching and why did he get saddled with Kidd?
If I recall, taking Kidd on staff was a condition of taking the HC job
Lakers originally offered the job to Ty Lue, who declined it. Vogel was then offered the job, but on the condition that Kidd would be an assistant coach for him, as the front office loved his interview but did not want him in the top spot yet. Considering Kidd’s history, it was essentially setting Vogel up to take the fall if literally anything went bad.
I wish I could somehow filter out anytime someone starts trying to discuss Lebron vs MJ.
Have you ever watched the Clayton Crowley "Making the Case" videos? They are a very good take on this kind of thing, where he just makes the best possible case he can for every player he thinks is worth the argument (I think he chooses 8). It's not really comparitive, just why someone could consider each player the greatest of all time. It mostly uses narrative and context, much more than "RINGZZZ duh" and comparison.
Compare that to Frank Vogel this year, who is 1) a new coach on a team that 2) is integrating a second megastar along with 3) a ton of other combustible factors to deal with (Dwight, Rondo, Javale, getting saddled with Jason "Littlefinger" Kidd as an assistant, not being management's first choice) and still got everyone to buy in to his system, and now they're the NBA Finals favorites.
I didn't follow the Lakers all that much during the season before the pandemic - what happened in LA in regards to coaching and why did he get saddled with Kidd?
If I recall, taking Kidd on staff was a condition of taking the HC job
Lakers originally offered the job to Ty Lue, who declined it. Vogel was then offered the job, but on the condition that Kidd would be an assistant coach for him, as the front office loved his interview but did not want him in the top spot yet. Considering Kidd’s history, it was essentially setting Vogel up to take the fall if literally anything went bad.
I believe at least one other candidate declined as well and Vogel was at best their 3rd choice. He is/was a bit underrated from his stint with the Pacers. Larry Bird thought Vogel was holding them back offensively but I think history has proved if anything that their rosters overachieved with him as coach.
Lebron is the greatest player of all time but I am still picking MJ number one overall if I’ve got the pick as a gm in a make believe all-time draft.
I'd be kind of interested in seeing what shenanigans an All-Timer draft would produce. Even skipping the superstars, the rounds where people start reaching to grab their personal favorites/homers or desperately try to fill holes in the roster would be entertaining
MJ, Worthy, Vince... Duncan if he was somehow still on the board, Muggsy if not because I gotta
I hope they do this again, because 1) this was a few month's before the 2011 playoffs so I the homer in me thinks he would go higher now, and 2) Chuck first picking Allen fucking Iverson is the funniest shit ever.
I hope they do this again, because 1) this was a few month's before the 2011 playoffs so I the homer in me thinks he would go higher now, and 2) Chuck first picking Allen fucking Iverson is the funniest shit ever.
As much as I appreciated the “Luc Longley Express” this was terrible
As a Heat fan, Lakers in 6. I think AD in the paint wrecks Miami any time they attempt a zone. Bam can only do so much.
Yeah, I mean. If there is anyone to bust up the middle of that zone, it would Lebron and AD.
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ButtersA glass of some milksRegistered Userregular
I'm not really X-and-Os level in basketball but I'm inclined to believe the zone would be less effective against players that regularly command double teams like LeBron
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Edit: holy shit terrible totp
For real, I think it comes down to “does Lebron still have Finals God juice left in the tank” and/or how does AD respond
Though the fact that it’s a bubble finals vs the real one probably has a huge impact on both- maybe Lebron doesn’t have the same adrenaline level to power him to absurd heights and AD doesn’t have the same intensity fueling “first-Finals-nerves”...
Also who will guard JR
Lebron is Lebron. Best you can do is hope to slow him down a bit so he doesn’t win the game on his own.
AD is AD. Bam could slow him down but again, you aren’t stopping him.
If Dwight Howard plays well I have no idea who is going to stop him on the Heat roster. Olynyk? Leonard? Haslem? Not likely on any front.
Lakers bench goes long and deep.
I just can’t see Miami keeping it up.
LeBron will get his, he always does. AD getting his is the variable here.
heat in three
3DS: 2981-5304-3227
And now the goofy hot take: Jerry West could take lessons on how to build a roster from Rob Pelinka.
3DS: 2981-5304-3227
Every free agent based super team has growing pains. It took the LeBron-Wade-Bosh Heat a year to figure it out, the KG-Allen-Pierce Celtics were taken to 7 games in the first two rounds of the playoffs, and the return Cavs didn't really gel until halfway through 2016. I also don't know how you blame Rivers for Paul George missing tons of open threes. Doc has his faults but I don't think you can put too much of their elimination on him.
In fact, are there any recent free agent super teams that didn't make the finals and won a title later? I think the more apt comparison might be Lob City, Russ PG Melo OKC, Harden CP3 clips, or Kobe Pau Nash Dwight Lakers. Teams with impressive but not overwhelming on paper talent that never click and subsequently dissolve having won nothing.
Keep in mind, despite all the attention and hype for the clips under Doc Rivers, the Blazers havr won more playoff series and gotten deeper during that time period and no one really considers them a raging success.
Doc absolutely has his share of the blame for that collapse. For example, if he stopped playing Montrezz Harrell like everyone in the world said he should do in Game 5 and instead gave Zubac, the only Clipper able to do anything of note defensively against Jokic, more of those minutes, there's a pretty good chance the Clippers advance. Or figuring out how to stagger minutes earlier in the game to give his clearly-tired team the energy they needed late-game (as was noticeable by game 5 again).
And there's a difference between "growing pains" and "never got on the same page despite having a whole year to figure it out". It's a superstar league, but it doesn't feel like Doc was ever able to get the team on the same page, especially getting the buy-in from his two stars to allow for that cohesiveness to occur. Compare that to Frank Vogel this year, who is 1) a new coach on a team that 2) is integrating a second megastar along with 3) a ton of other combustible factors to deal with (Dwight, Rondo, Javale, getting saddled with Jason "Littlefinger" Kidd as an assistant, not being management's first choice) and still got everyone to buy in to his system, and now they're the NBA Finals favorites. That's on the coaching staff, especially Doc.
But like I said, Doc was a symptom. The Clippers had a broken roster to begin with, and it ain't getting fixed easily.
3DS: 2981-5304-3227
I didn't follow the Lakers all that much during the season before the pandemic - what happened in LA in regards to coaching and why did he get saddled with Kidd?
Maybe I'm underestimating Doc's screwups but I still think with PG disappearing from that series and the game-to-game limitations of Leonard, it's possible they lost to a better team despite the 3-1 lead. Somebody mentioned Zubac needed more minutes but he got around 30 in games 5 and 6 and they still lost those games. Jokic is really fucking good and they didn't have anyone that could guard him effectively.
If I recall, taking Kidd on staff was a condition of taking the HC job
{Twitter, Everybody's doing it. }{Writing and Story Blog}
He gave up being franchise president in 2017. He was supposedly consulted on trades after that but he didn't give away all those picks himself.
Lakers originally offered the job to Ty Lue, who declined it. Vogel was then offered the job, but on the condition that Kidd would be an assistant coach for him, as the front office loved his interview but did not want him in the top spot yet. Considering Kidd’s history, it was essentially setting Vogel up to take the fall if literally anything went bad.
3DS: 2981-5304-3227
Have you ever watched the Clayton Crowley "Making the Case" videos? They are a very good take on this kind of thing, where he just makes the best possible case he can for every player he thinks is worth the argument (I think he chooses 8). It's not really comparitive, just why someone could consider each player the greatest of all time. It mostly uses narrative and context, much more than "RINGZZZ duh" and comparison.
I believe at least one other candidate declined as well and Vogel was at best their 3rd choice. He is/was a bit underrated from his stint with the Pacers. Larry Bird thought Vogel was holding them back offensively but I think history has proved if anything that their rosters overachieved with him as coach.
Because obviously kobe is the greatest, right?!
Just cause it bother Raijin, it’s easier to build around Lebron
I'd be kind of interested in seeing what shenanigans an All-Timer draft would produce. Even skipping the superstars, the rounds where people start reaching to grab their personal favorites/homers or desperately try to fill holes in the roster would be entertaining
MJ, Worthy, Vince... Duncan if he was somehow still on the board, Muggsy if not because I gotta
I hope they do this again, because 1) this was a few month's before the 2011 playoffs so I the homer in me thinks he would go higher now, and 2) Chuck first picking Allen fucking Iverson is the funniest shit ever.
As much as I appreciated the “Luc Longley Express” this was terrible
Yeah, I mean. If there is anyone to bust up the middle of that zone, it would Lebron and AD.
That was such a Lakers quarter. Start out playing like absolute shit, only to wake up and end the quarter with a lead.
3DS: 2981-5304-3227