Some time actually does pass between the end of TLJ and the start of TROS - enough for them to have established a new base (of sorts) and rebuilt the fleet (again, of sorts), for Rey to train with Leia, etc. It's one of the few not-completely-stupid parts of that movie.
Mind you, it's probably only there because a similar span elapsed between ESB and RotJ, while everyone was looking for Han, and you know JJ had to copy that too.
TLJ doesn't have any temporal shenanigans. Rey leaves HQ at the end of TFA and meets Luke. TLJ starts with that meeting and simultaneously, HQ realizes it's been spotted. The 18 hour number doesn't come into play until after the initial escape jump. We have no idea how long that jump took because hyperspace time is never given in any movie. It's long enough that Rose has had to defend the escape pods from deserters, so I'm guessing it's at least in the 4 to 8 hour range, but i wouldn't cry foul if Rian Johnson said it was a full day. Which puts Rey on Ahch-To for 22 to 48 hours, which jives with the number of nights we see her spend there. Everything we see happen is in order.
What I don't get is "The First Order reigns." Both sides just lost their capitals and the First Order is supposed to be this vague, restricted force in the outer rim. Why do they suddenly rule the galaxy moments after the end of the last movie?
+11
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NEO|PhyteThey follow the stars, bound together.Strands in a braid till the end.Registered Userregular
The resistance knew it was spotted back in TFA, Starkiller was charging up to blast them during the fighty stuff at the end.
It was that somehow, from within the derelict-horror, they had learned a way to see inside an ugly, broken thing... And take away its pain.
Warframe/Steam: NFyt
TLJ doesn't have any temporal shenanigans. Rey leaves HQ at the end of TFA and meets Luke. TLJ starts with that meeting and simultaneously, HQ realizes it's been spotted. The 18 hour number doesn't come into play until after the initial escape jump. We have no idea how long that jump took because hyperspace time is never given in any movie. It's long enough that Rose has had to defend the escape pods from deserters, so I'm guessing it's at least in the 4 to 8 hour range, but i wouldn't cry foul if Rian Johnson said it was a full day. Which puts Rey on Ahch-To for 22 to 48 hours, which jives with the number of nights we see her spend there. Everything we see happen is in order.
What I don't get is "The First Order reigns." Both sides just lost their capitals and the First Order is supposed to be this vague, restricted force in the outer rim. Why do they suddenly rule the galaxy moments after the end of the last movie?
Probably because they wiped out the entire galactic Senate and all its major planets, and in the power vacuum assumed control.
And yeah, the ending does have the Resistance almost wiped out. Just like almost the entire fighter force the rebels send after the Death Star die. Just like Neo literally dies right before the end. Because you push your heroes to the ragged edge before they pull out the win at the last minute. That's a very common structure.
...
When I was younger, I fucking loved Star Wars. I watched it about a billion times. I don't remember which editions we had (though definitely I saw the originals first), but I remember that the start of each one had an interview with George Lucas talking about making the films. I remember very little except that he said that he followed a very classic structure in the films: in the first act, you introduce the heroes, in the second, you put them in a dark situation where they're never going to get out, and in the third act, they get out. "That's drama." I don't think he was wrong! At least, about that being a major, common, classic way to do drama.
Anyway seeing this just reminds me of that. Who knows how honest he was being about that being his plan (at least once the first movie was a hit), but the rebels being crushed and almost hopeless was deliberate in Empire Strikes Back, so I don't feel like it was out of place there.
I keep seeing the supposed parallel to ESB being thrown around, but it’s really not the same. At the end of Empire, Luke has already healed from his wound and is adjusting to his mechanical hand, and they’re in space with a bunch of Rebel ships. It was a lost battle, not a lost war - and with Han being explicitly pointed out as alive, we have a basic idea of how the heroes will regroup and save the day in the finale.
TFA sets up the entire republic fleet/hierarchy/whatever getting blown up, and then TLJ compounds on it with the entire resistance reduced to maybe two dozen people. There’s no fleet to regroup with, Han is dead, Luke is dead, and it’s explicitly called out that nobody is responding to help or coming to support. “We are the spark that will blah blah” doesn’t mean shit when the entire galaxy heard you call for help and collectively shrugged. The war is over and the resistance lost, and the only spark of optimism is that broomstick kid can use the force. Which, ok, that’s nice if he’s all trained up in 15 years, but is completely irrelevant to the fight against the first order.
On its own merits TLJ is the best of the sequel trilogy, but it really leaves ROS with hardly anything to work with.
No, the end of TLJ is implying that because of Luke's actions reaching across the galaxy, all those people that weren't responding are now joining up. The fires of rebellion are spreading. The kid is symbolic ffs, he's not supposed to be a major character in the next film.
TLJ sets up an obvious direction for the next film. Rey is figuring out the new Jedi order. Poe is leading the new rebellion. Finn is a rebel hero. They are gonna kick the First Order around.
And you can glance at the leaked Treverrow script and see that people got that part. It may suck (that script sucks) but it clearly sees the pieces left for it.
How are Luke’s actions supposed to reach across the galaxy? They were observed by the first order, which certainly isn’t going to talk about them, and maybe 20 surviving resistance dudes, who nobody was willing help. Broom kid is certainly partial to the resistance for breaking up the monotony of his life, but knows zip about Luke Skywalker.
Maybe that was supposed to be blindingly obvious, but I’ve seen the movie at least 3 times and didn’t pick up on it. It sets up the possibility for things to rebuild in about 20 years but that’s pretty much it.
As I said, it has Leia literally end the film with "We have everything we need to rebuild the resistance" followed by a scene showing that the story of Luke Skywalker facing an entire First Order army by himself has spread and is inspiring people to fight back, exactly as the film has been talking about the whole time.
400 of us. On 3 ships. We are the very last of the Resistance. But we are not alone. In every corner of the galaxy, people know our symbol and put their hope in it. We are the spark, that'll light the fire, that will restore the Republic. The spark is that the Resistance must survive. That is our mission. Now go back to your stations... and may the force be with us.
i'm not arguing the point of the message of the movie but this quote is kind of rough because the movie goes on to state Holdo was wrong, or at least, that's the implied message. no one shows up to help them. if people get Leia's message, they don't care or don't care enough to put their lives on the line.
Except, again, that's before the climax of the film. The climax which literally addresses this entire point and is then showing, in the final scenes of the film, to have changed that. People have been inspired by their actions. Holdo lays out the goal, the finale of the film then shows them finally succeeding at it.
Like, I am seriously baffled here that people keep looking at something that happens before the heroes turn shit around and win and saying that that's the end point of that part of the story. It's literally the part before they turn everything around, of course it looks bad then. But the point of the climax is that they then turn everything around.
The whole 'we just need to inspire people' is maybe the worst part of the whole thing. The fact that the rebellion was essentially squashed down to nothingness and the last jedi in the galaxy died is supposed to inspire people? It feels so facile and pretentious. Were they not inspired by blowing up starkiller base? By killing Snoke? It felt very anime, like they were going to succeed using the power of friendship.
+13
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
Inspiring people to join the Resistance is something that makes sense to happen ten years earlier and leading to the development of a Resistance fleet, like how Ezra and friends are running around behind the scenes in Rebels years before ANH in order to get the Rebel fleet going. If your group is at the point where they've been stomped to nothing and is just now trying to inspire people to join, putting together anything useful is years away.
Not to mention that the galactic response to the First Order seems to be "meh". You'd think people would be pretty terrified of Not Nazis 2.0 taking over again, but apparently hardly anybody gives a shit?
And yeah, the ending does have the Resistance almost wiped out. Just like almost the entire fighter force the rebels send after the Death Star die. Just like Neo literally dies right before the end. Because you push your heroes to the ragged edge before they pull out the win at the last minute. That's a very common structure.
...
When I was younger, I fucking loved Star Wars. I watched it about a billion times. I don't remember which editions we had (though definitely I saw the originals first), but I remember that the start of each one had an interview with George Lucas talking about making the films. I remember very little except that he said that he followed a very classic structure in the films: in the first act, you introduce the heroes, in the second, you put them in a dark situation where they're never going to get out, and in the third act, they get out. "That's drama." I don't think he was wrong! At least, about that being a major, common, classic way to do drama.
Anyway seeing this just reminds me of that. Who knows how honest he was being about that being his plan (at least once the first movie was a hit), but the rebels being crushed and almost hopeless was deliberate in Empire Strikes Back, so I don't feel like it was out of place there.
I keep seeing the supposed parallel to ESB being thrown around, but it’s really not the same. At the end of Empire, Luke has already healed from his wound and is adjusting to his mechanical hand, and they’re in space with a bunch of Rebel ships. It was a lost battle, not a lost war - and with Han being explicitly pointed out as alive, we have a basic idea of how the heroes will regroup and save the day in the finale.
TFA sets up the entire republic fleet/hierarchy/whatever getting blown up, and then TLJ compounds on it with the entire resistance reduced to maybe two dozen people. There’s no fleet to regroup with, Han is dead, Luke is dead, and it’s explicitly called out that nobody is responding to help or coming to support. “We are the spark that will blah blah” doesn’t mean shit when the entire galaxy heard you call for help and collectively shrugged. The war is over and the resistance lost, and the only spark of optimism is that broomstick kid can use the force. Which, ok, that’s nice if he’s all trained up in 15 years, but is completely irrelevant to the fight against the first order.
On its own merits TLJ is the best of the sequel trilogy, but it really leaves ROS with hardly anything to work with.
No, the end of TLJ is implying that because of Luke's actions reaching across the galaxy, all those people that weren't responding are now joining up. The fires of rebellion are spreading. The kid is symbolic ffs, he's not supposed to be a major character in the next film.
TLJ sets up an obvious direction for the next film. Rey is figuring out the new Jedi order. Poe is leading the new rebellion. Finn is a rebel hero. They are gonna kick the First Order around.
And you can glance at the leaked Treverrow script and see that people got that part. It may suck (that script sucks) but it clearly sees the pieces left for it.
How are Luke’s actions supposed to reach across the galaxy? They were observed by the first order, which certainly isn’t going to talk about them, and maybe 20 surviving resistance dudes, who nobody was willing help. Broom kid is certainly partial to the resistance for breaking up the monotony of his life, but knows zip about Luke Skywalker.
Maybe that was supposed to be blindingly obvious, but I’ve seen the movie at least 3 times and didn’t pick up on it. It sets up the possibility for things to rebuild in about 20 years but that’s pretty much it.
I've always thought that maybe Luke wasn't just force projecting to the people on the Planet. Maybe he was broadbanding it to every force sensitive he could reach, as far as he could reach. IIRC it's broom kid who tells the story.
Inspiring people to join the Resistance is something that makes sense to happen ten years earlier and leading to the development of a Resistance fleet, like how Ezra and friends are running around behind the scenes in Rebels years before ANH in order to get the Rebel fleet going. If your group is at the point where they've been stomped to nothing and is just now trying to inspire people to join, putting together anything useful is years away.
Not to mention that the galactic response to the First Order seems to be "meh". You'd think people would be pretty terrified of Not Nazis 2.0 taking over again, but apparently hardly anybody gives a shit?
I mean, that sounds pretty realistic right now....
You know what? Nanowrimo's cancelled on account of the world is stupid.
+15
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
Inspiring people to join the Resistance is something that makes sense to happen ten years earlier and leading to the development of a Resistance fleet, like how Ezra and friends are running around behind the scenes in Rebels years before ANH in order to get the Rebel fleet going. If your group is at the point where they've been stomped to nothing and is just now trying to inspire people to join, putting together anything useful is years away.
Not to mention that the galactic response to the First Order seems to be "meh". You'd think people would be pretty terrified of Not Nazis 2.0 taking over again, but apparently hardly anybody gives a shit?
I mean, that sounds pretty realistic right now....
Except for the million reasons where that parallel doesn't apply from the US perspective, starting at the fact that the US wasn't invaded and brutalized for decades by Nazis and ending at the fact that the current issue is a lot of people wanting to be the Nazis doing the invading and brutalizing.
If Germany bizarrely went Nazi again, you can bet that the surrounding countries would be very interested in that and take major steps to protect themselves, particularly when Germany started showing off an insanely huge military.
And yeah, the ending does have the Resistance almost wiped out. Just like almost the entire fighter force the rebels send after the Death Star die. Just like Neo literally dies right before the end. Because you push your heroes to the ragged edge before they pull out the win at the last minute. That's a very common structure.
...
When I was younger, I fucking loved Star Wars. I watched it about a billion times. I don't remember which editions we had (though definitely I saw the originals first), but I remember that the start of each one had an interview with George Lucas talking about making the films. I remember very little except that he said that he followed a very classic structure in the films: in the first act, you introduce the heroes, in the second, you put them in a dark situation where they're never going to get out, and in the third act, they get out. "That's drama." I don't think he was wrong! At least, about that being a major, common, classic way to do drama.
Anyway seeing this just reminds me of that. Who knows how honest he was being about that being his plan (at least once the first movie was a hit), but the rebels being crushed and almost hopeless was deliberate in Empire Strikes Back, so I don't feel like it was out of place there.
I keep seeing the supposed parallel to ESB being thrown around, but it’s really not the same. At the end of Empire, Luke has already healed from his wound and is adjusting to his mechanical hand, and they’re in space with a bunch of Rebel ships. It was a lost battle, not a lost war - and with Han being explicitly pointed out as alive, we have a basic idea of how the heroes will regroup and save the day in the finale.
TFA sets up the entire republic fleet/hierarchy/whatever getting blown up, and then TLJ compounds on it with the entire resistance reduced to maybe two dozen people. There’s no fleet to regroup with, Han is dead, Luke is dead, and it’s explicitly called out that nobody is responding to help or coming to support. “We are the spark that will blah blah” doesn’t mean shit when the entire galaxy heard you call for help and collectively shrugged. The war is over and the resistance lost, and the only spark of optimism is that broomstick kid can use the force. Which, ok, that’s nice if he’s all trained up in 15 years, but is completely irrelevant to the fight against the first order.
On its own merits TLJ is the best of the sequel trilogy, but it really leaves ROS with hardly anything to work with.
No, the end of TLJ is implying that because of Luke's actions reaching across the galaxy, all those people that weren't responding are now joining up. The fires of rebellion are spreading. The kid is symbolic ffs, he's not supposed to be a major character in the next film.
TLJ sets up an obvious direction for the next film. Rey is figuring out the new Jedi order. Poe is leading the new rebellion. Finn is a rebel hero. They are gonna kick the First Order around.
And you can glance at the leaked Treverrow script and see that people got that part. It may suck (that script sucks) but it clearly sees the pieces left for it.
How are Luke’s actions supposed to reach across the galaxy? They were observed by the first order, which certainly isn’t going to talk about them, and maybe 20 surviving resistance dudes, who nobody was willing help. Broom kid is certainly partial to the resistance for breaking up the monotony of his life, but knows zip about Luke Skywalker.
Maybe that was supposed to be blindingly obvious, but I’ve seen the movie at least 3 times and didn’t pick up on it. It sets up the possibility for things to rebuild in about 20 years but that’s pretty much it.
As I said, it has Leia literally end the film with "We have everything we need to rebuild the resistance" followed by a scene showing that the story of Luke Skywalker facing an entire First Order army by himself has spread and is inspiring people to fight back, exactly as the film has been talking about the whole time.
400 of us. On 3 ships. We are the very last of the Resistance. But we are not alone. In every corner of the galaxy, people know our symbol and put their hope in it. We are the spark, that'll light the fire, that will restore the Republic. The spark is that the Resistance must survive. That is our mission. Now go back to your stations... and may the force be with us.
i'm not arguing the point of the message of the movie but this quote is kind of rough because the movie goes on to state Holdo was wrong, or at least, that's the implied message. no one shows up to help them. if people get Leia's message, they don't care or don't care enough to put their lives on the line.
Except, again, that's before the climax of the film. The climax which literally addresses this entire point and is then showing, in the final scenes of the film, to have changed that. People have been inspired by their actions. Holdo lays out the goal, the finale of the film then shows them finally succeeding at it.
Like, I am seriously baffled here that people keep looking at something that happens before the heroes turn shit around and win and saying that that's the end point of that part of the story. It's literally the part before they turn everything around, of course it looks bad then. But the point of the climax is that they then turn everything around.
Holdo says people will help, people don't help.
Leia says they have everything they need, they don't.
Luke tells Rey that the key to winning isn't the myth of Luke Skywalker destroying the Empire as a single Jedi, yet that's the story the kid is showing at the end.
Maybe you don't have to be baffled by why people think the message is pretty muddled?
The power of friendship is literally how the Rebels win in ROTJ.
The power of friendship and vicious cannibals.
Which really makes more sense than just friendship.
Point of fact, Ewoks aren't cannibals for eating humans.
True. We don't see any ewok on ewok eating. But its easier to shorthand "Willing to eat fellow sapient beings" as cannibal then to say Stormtrooparians.
The power of friendship is literally how the Rebels win in ROTJ.
The power of friendship and vicious cannibals.
Which really makes more sense than just friendship.
Point of fact, Ewoks aren't cannibals for eating humans.
True. We don't see any ewok on ewok eating. But its easier to shorthand "Willing to eat fellow sapient beings" as cannibal then to say Stormtrooparians.
the ewoks were super up front about being humanitarians and were pretty perplexed when the imperial army were excited to set up shop in the area anyway
And yeah, the ending does have the Resistance almost wiped out. Just like almost the entire fighter force the rebels send after the Death Star die. Just like Neo literally dies right before the end. Because you push your heroes to the ragged edge before they pull out the win at the last minute. That's a very common structure.
...
When I was younger, I fucking loved Star Wars. I watched it about a billion times. I don't remember which editions we had (though definitely I saw the originals first), but I remember that the start of each one had an interview with George Lucas talking about making the films. I remember very little except that he said that he followed a very classic structure in the films: in the first act, you introduce the heroes, in the second, you put them in a dark situation where they're never going to get out, and in the third act, they get out. "That's drama." I don't think he was wrong! At least, about that being a major, common, classic way to do drama.
Anyway seeing this just reminds me of that. Who knows how honest he was being about that being his plan (at least once the first movie was a hit), but the rebels being crushed and almost hopeless was deliberate in Empire Strikes Back, so I don't feel like it was out of place there.
I keep seeing the supposed parallel to ESB being thrown around, but it’s really not the same. At the end of Empire, Luke has already healed from his wound and is adjusting to his mechanical hand, and they’re in space with a bunch of Rebel ships. It was a lost battle, not a lost war - and with Han being explicitly pointed out as alive, we have a basic idea of how the heroes will regroup and save the day in the finale.
TFA sets up the entire republic fleet/hierarchy/whatever getting blown up, and then TLJ compounds on it with the entire resistance reduced to maybe two dozen people. There’s no fleet to regroup with, Han is dead, Luke is dead, and it’s explicitly called out that nobody is responding to help or coming to support. “We are the spark that will blah blah” doesn’t mean shit when the entire galaxy heard you call for help and collectively shrugged. The war is over and the resistance lost, and the only spark of optimism is that broomstick kid can use the force. Which, ok, that’s nice if he’s all trained up in 15 years, but is completely irrelevant to the fight against the first order.
On its own merits TLJ is the best of the sequel trilogy, but it really leaves ROS with hardly anything to work with.
No, the end of TLJ is implying that because of Luke's actions reaching across the galaxy, all those people that weren't responding are now joining up. The fires of rebellion are spreading. The kid is symbolic ffs, he's not supposed to be a major character in the next film.
TLJ sets up an obvious direction for the next film. Rey is figuring out the new Jedi order. Poe is leading the new rebellion. Finn is a rebel hero. They are gonna kick the First Order around.
And you can glance at the leaked Treverrow script and see that people got that part. It may suck (that script sucks) but it clearly sees the pieces left for it.
How are Luke’s actions supposed to reach across the galaxy? They were observed by the first order, which certainly isn’t going to talk about them, and maybe 20 surviving resistance dudes, who nobody was willing help. Broom kid is certainly partial to the resistance for breaking up the monotony of his life, but knows zip about Luke Skywalker.
Maybe that was supposed to be blindingly obvious, but I’ve seen the movie at least 3 times and didn’t pick up on it. It sets up the possibility for things to rebuild in about 20 years but that’s pretty much it.
As I said, it has Leia literally end the film with "We have everything we need to rebuild the resistance" followed by a scene showing that the story of Luke Skywalker facing an entire First Order army by himself has spread and is inspiring people to fight back, exactly as the film has been talking about the whole time.
400 of us. On 3 ships. We are the very last of the Resistance. But we are not alone. In every corner of the galaxy, people know our symbol and put their hope in it. We are the spark, that'll light the fire, that will restore the Republic. The spark is that the Resistance must survive. That is our mission. Now go back to your stations... and may the force be with us.
i'm not arguing the point of the message of the movie but this quote is kind of rough because the movie goes on to state Holdo was wrong, or at least, that's the implied message. no one shows up to help them. if people get Leia's message, they don't care or don't care enough to put their lives on the line.
Except, again, that's before the climax of the film. The climax which literally addresses this entire point and is then showing, in the final scenes of the film, to have changed that. People have been inspired by their actions. Holdo lays out the goal, the finale of the film then shows them finally succeeding at it.
Like, I am seriously baffled here that people keep looking at something that happens before the heroes turn shit around and win and saying that that's the end point of that part of the story. It's literally the part before they turn everything around, of course it looks bad then. But the point of the climax is that they then turn everything around.
Holdo says people will help, people don't help.
Leia says they have everything they need, they don't.
Luke tells Rey that the key to winning isn't the myth of Luke Skywalker destroying the Empire as a single Jedi, yet that's the story the kid is showing at the end.
Maybe you don't have to be baffled by why people think the message is pretty muddled?
No, it's baffling. Your post is a perfect example of this since you are literally mixing up the timeline of the movie in order to get cute and make this work.
-> Holdo brings up the theme that they have to survive so they can bring hope to the galaxy and begin the rebellion
-> then they get their asses kicked over and over again for much of the movie
-> then they ask for help and no one comes, this is their lowest point
-> then right as Leia is about to give up, Luke shows up
-> Luke saves the day and becomes a symbol of the ability to resist the First Order and allows the last of the Resistance to escape
-> Leia says they have everything they need after all of this happens because now they've survived and the legend of Luke Skywalker facing an entire army and winning has inspired people across the galaxy
Yeah, I'm sure this makes a lot less sense if you don't put the events in order but that's true of every story. And also incredibly disingenuous as an argument.
Also, when Luke says "X can't be done" and then later in the movie, after he's gone through his character arc, he then does X, that's a callback. It's a setup and payoff. A very common storytelling device that I'm very incredulous that people have not seen before.
EDIT:
Like, seriously, this is literally like an argument saying "The Matrix doesn't make any sense. Neo tells Trinity he's not The One! And then suddenly he's The One?". Come on.
To further hammer home the callback nature of Luke facing down the whole First Order with his laser sword, Rey has to prove her Jedi abilities by lifting rocks. She specifically acknowledges her situation to make it easier for the viewer to connect the dots with Luke.
TLJ is in that realm of ambitious mediocrity with the right sort of ideas and flaws that a given viewer can easily break into 'this is shit' or 'this is incredible' or 'this is mediocre' without it being all that shocking to me.
My disappointment with the movie catalyzed into hatred pretty much purely through discussions on this forum. Like it's a personal failing to not care for the movie or recognize RJ's genius filmmaking. Twitter picked it as a culture war battleground so now if you don't like it you're a lesser person, as proven because the chuds don't like it either. And so I dug deep into it, thinking maybe I would learn to like it, and instead came out thinking less of the movie the more I dug.
Even then, it might even be the best of the trilogy (TFA is competent, but the way it set the stage is at fault for everything else). But I'd rather watch the other two.
Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
The frustrating thing about TLJ is that its ideas are grand enough to be really enticing all on their own, and it has a handful of really amazing scenes with everything else being just good enough to come across the the majority of people. But then it has glaring weaknesses like the entire Canto Bight subplot or its handling of Luke's turn on Kylo, which when coupled with things that may or may not tweak particular people, such as the weak choreography for the throne room fight and the "Luke drinks milk like a small child" scene, can totally turn people off from the entire thing.
I found it to be largely enjoyable but flawed in a lot of ways, and I held my breath during Holdo's sacrifice. I have friends who absolutely love the film as a whole, and I know people who either agree with me or have even worse opinions. Based on my entirely anecdotal evidence, most people seem to really like TLJ and either thought TROS was boring or an active dumpster fire. But in none of those cases do I think that any of these people are coming from some kind of fundamental misunderstanding of the film itself or that they are inherently sexist/racist/dumb/whatever.
Film as a medium is meant to communicate ideas (unless you are making a film entirely for yourself, a bucket in which I'm pretty sure these films do not fall within). While people do bear some responsibility for being receptive to and paying attention to the film, simply dismissing someone's negative reaction out-of-hand based on misremembering details or poor recollection misses the larger issue that they didn't like the film. Emotions and intuition precede rationalizations. If the film intended to convey a particular theme or idea, or intended to be resonant in some way, and it failed to do any of those things, then I'd argue the primary fault (but not all of it) lies with the film itself rather than the audience it is attempting to reach.
We have these same discussions about films like Fight Club or, the more recent asinine fiasco, Cuties (where the issue lies more with the dumbest fucking marketing on the planet and people willing to have opinions about shit they didn't actually watch and then make themselves feel good on the internet by yelling about it, rather than the film itself).
At the end of the day people won't remember what you said or did, they will remember how you made them feel. Maybe people can't accurately rationalize or analyze or describe what it is about a film that turned them off. But the core point is that it did turn them off in some way.
P.S. - JJ Abrams is a hack.
+8
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joshgotroDeviled EggThe Land of REAL CHILIRegistered Userregular
And yeah, the ending does have the Resistance almost wiped out. Just like almost the entire fighter force the rebels send after the Death Star die. Just like Neo literally dies right before the end. Because you push your heroes to the ragged edge before they pull out the win at the last minute. That's a very common structure.
...
When I was younger, I fucking loved Star Wars. I watched it about a billion times. I don't remember which editions we had (though definitely I saw the originals first), but I remember that the start of each one had an interview with George Lucas talking about making the films. I remember very little except that he said that he followed a very classic structure in the films: in the first act, you introduce the heroes, in the second, you put them in a dark situation where they're never going to get out, and in the third act, they get out. "That's drama." I don't think he was wrong! At least, about that being a major, common, classic way to do drama.
Anyway seeing this just reminds me of that. Who knows how honest he was being about that being his plan (at least once the first movie was a hit), but the rebels being crushed and almost hopeless was deliberate in Empire Strikes Back, so I don't feel like it was out of place there.
I keep seeing the supposed parallel to ESB being thrown around, but it’s really not the same. At the end of Empire, Luke has already healed from his wound and is adjusting to his mechanical hand, and they’re in space with a bunch of Rebel ships. It was a lost battle, not a lost war - and with Han being explicitly pointed out as alive, we have a basic idea of how the heroes will regroup and save the day in the finale.
TFA sets up the entire republic fleet/hierarchy/whatever getting blown up, and then TLJ compounds on it with the entire resistance reduced to maybe two dozen people. There’s no fleet to regroup with, Han is dead, Luke is dead, and it’s explicitly called out that nobody is responding to help or coming to support. “We are the spark that will blah blah” doesn’t mean shit when the entire galaxy heard you call for help and collectively shrugged. The war is over and the resistance lost, and the only spark of optimism is that broomstick kid can use the force. Which, ok, that’s nice if he’s all trained up in 15 years, but is completely irrelevant to the fight against the first order.
On its own merits TLJ is the best of the sequel trilogy, but it really leaves ROS with hardly anything to work with.
No, the end of TLJ is implying that because of Luke's actions reaching across the galaxy, all those people that weren't responding are now joining up. The fires of rebellion are spreading. The kid is symbolic ffs, he's not supposed to be a major character in the next film.
TLJ sets up an obvious direction for the next film. Rey is figuring out the new Jedi order. Poe is leading the new rebellion. Finn is a rebel hero. They are gonna kick the First Order around.
And you can glance at the leaked Treverrow script and see that people got that part. It may suck (that script sucks) but it clearly sees the pieces left for it.
How are Luke’s actions supposed to reach across the galaxy? They were observed by the first order, which certainly isn’t going to talk about them, and maybe 20 surviving resistance dudes, who nobody was willing help. Broom kid is certainly partial to the resistance for breaking up the monotony of his life, but knows zip about Luke Skywalker.
Maybe that was supposed to be blindingly obvious, but I’ve seen the movie at least 3 times and didn’t pick up on it. It sets up the possibility for things to rebuild in about 20 years but that’s pretty much it.
As I said, it has Leia literally end the film with "We have everything we need to rebuild the resistance" followed by a scene showing that the story of Luke Skywalker facing an entire First Order army by himself has spread and is inspiring people to fight back, exactly as the film has been talking about the whole time.
400 of us. On 3 ships. We are the very last of the Resistance. But we are not alone. In every corner of the galaxy, people know our symbol and put their hope in it. We are the spark, that'll light the fire, that will restore the Republic. The spark is that the Resistance must survive. That is our mission. Now go back to your stations... and may the force be with us.
i'm not arguing the point of the message of the movie but this quote is kind of rough because the movie goes on to state Holdo was wrong, or at least, that's the implied message. no one shows up to help them. if people get Leia's message, they don't care or don't care enough to put their lives on the line.
Except, again, that's before the climax of the film. The climax which literally addresses this entire point and is then showing, in the final scenes of the film, to have changed that. People have been inspired by their actions. Holdo lays out the goal, the finale of the film then shows them finally succeeding at it.
Like, I am seriously baffled here that people keep looking at something that happens before the heroes turn shit around and win and saying that that's the end point of that part of the story. It's literally the part before they turn everything around, of course it looks bad then. But the point of the climax is that they then turn everything around.
Holdo says people will help, people don't help.
Leia says they have everything they need, they don't.
Luke tells Rey that the key to winning isn't the myth of Luke Skywalker destroying the Empire as a single Jedi, yet that's the story the kid is showing at the end.
Maybe you don't have to be baffled by why people think the message is pretty muddled?
No. Holdo said the Resistance gives the people hope. And that hope would eventually build into a revolution that would restore the republic. She never made a claim that galaxy will immediately rise up and come to their aid. She only said that if they successfully escape they can continue to build the revolution.
Leia is repeating the exact same thing Holdo did. They have everything the need because the Resistance has survived and the galaxy has hope to build that revolution.
Luke didn't say anything about myth. He said [essentially] "what can one man do against an army?" And he was correct that the answer to that question is nothing. But what Luke needed to relearn, with a little kick in the ass from Yoda, is a Jedi, with the Force as his ally, could. That is what can stop an army without even lifting a finger as Luke does. That is the story the kid retells that is inspiring the galaxy. A story of a Resistance desperately fighting against tyranny and of a Jedi using the Force to do the impossible. Not the story of a man with a laser sword beating up endless waves of mooks.
Just remember that half the people you meet are below average intelligence.
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
It had some fun little pieces to it, but the Throne room fight was messy overall and is carried a good portion of the way on it's visuals (Which is something you can say for a lot of TLJ in my opinion)
the best ST lightsaber fight was, ironically, in TROS, when Kylo and Rey were dueling with the translocation power. Shows a good struggle, has cool visuals, and isn't muddied by excess fighters left with nothing to do.
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Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
Thinking about it some more the throne room fight is reminiscent of older wuxia films where people stood around in fancy stances and made threatening gestures before going into these moves where nobody actually aimed at their opponent. The only thing missing was people screaming out the names of their techniques as they were doing them or having long monologues in-between sequences.
It may well be that someone's opinion of the quality of those scenes are dependent upon whether they an appreciate that aesthetic for what it is, rather than expecting something a little more modern in its execution. I think it I saw that fight in a different context I would've enjoyed it more for what it is.
Throne Room was way better for me the first time, and it has some silliness on closer watch, but, how to put it.
I don't really hold it much against a fight scene that shifting your eyes where it doesn't want them makes it fall apart, as long as it keeps your eyes from doing that the first time through?
The ST in general is short on lightsaber fights imo. Like, I don't need the silly excess of the PT. Especially Ep 2 and 3. But a few more would have been nice. Both TFA and TLJ have like 1. Maybe 2.
We need some more laser swords people. That's why we're here!
Thinking about it some more the throne room fight is reminiscent of older wuxia films where people stood around in fancy stances and made threatening gestures before going into these moves where nobody actually aimed at their opponent. The only thing missing was people screaming out the names of their techniques as they were doing them or having long monologues in-between sequences.
It may well be that someone's opinion of the quality of those scenes are dependent upon whether they an appreciate that aesthetic for what it is, rather than expecting something a little more modern in its execution. I think it I saw that fight in a different context I would've enjoyed it more for what it is.
I don't know, that doesn't really sound like it describes the fight to me. It seemed very in line with the style JJ came out with for TFA, which was a really nice synthesis of the OT and the PT imo. A lot more fluid and showy then the fights from ESB or ROTJ but without the over-the-top silliness of the later PT stuff.
I liked the Throne Room fight right up until I watched a 'Stuntman Reacts' and saw them point out all the bad choreography, missed timing, and just stupid stuff going on in that fight. Like at one point one of the guys near Rey just throws himself backwards for no reason.
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Mind you, it's probably only there because a similar span elapsed between ESB and RotJ, while everyone was looking for Han, and you know JJ had to copy that too.
What I don't get is "The First Order reigns." Both sides just lost their capitals and the First Order is supposed to be this vague, restricted force in the outer rim. Why do they suddenly rule the galaxy moments after the end of the last movie?
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Probably because they wiped out the entire galactic Senate and all its major planets, and in the power vacuum assumed control.
As I said, it has Leia literally end the film with "We have everything we need to rebuild the resistance" followed by a scene showing that the story of Luke Skywalker facing an entire First Order army by himself has spread and is inspiring people to fight back, exactly as the film has been talking about the whole time.
Except, again, that's before the climax of the film. The climax which literally addresses this entire point and is then showing, in the final scenes of the film, to have changed that. People have been inspired by their actions. Holdo lays out the goal, the finale of the film then shows them finally succeeding at it.
Like, I am seriously baffled here that people keep looking at something that happens before the heroes turn shit around and win and saying that that's the end point of that part of the story. It's literally the part before they turn everything around, of course it looks bad then. But the point of the climax is that they then turn everything around.
Good point, I forgot about that. That locks everything into place pretty firmly.
Not to mention that the galactic response to the First Order seems to be "meh". You'd think people would be pretty terrified of Not Nazis 2.0 taking over again, but apparently hardly anybody gives a shit?
The power of friendship and vicious cannibals.
Which really makes more sense than just friendship.
I've always thought that maybe Luke wasn't just force projecting to the people on the Planet. Maybe he was broadbanding it to every force sensitive he could reach, as far as he could reach. IIRC it's broom kid who tells the story.
Honestly if the show Hannibal taught us nothing, it should teach us that.
Yes but it actually shows them making friends and building relationships. In the sequel trilogy it's just wishing on a star, with no basis in reality.
I mean, that sounds pretty realistic right now....
Except for the million reasons where that parallel doesn't apply from the US perspective, starting at the fact that the US wasn't invaded and brutalized for decades by Nazis and ending at the fact that the current issue is a lot of people wanting to be the Nazis doing the invading and brutalizing.
If Germany bizarrely went Nazi again, you can bet that the surrounding countries would be very interested in that and take major steps to protect themselves, particularly when Germany started showing off an insanely huge military.
Holdo says people will help, people don't help.
Leia says they have everything they need, they don't.
Luke tells Rey that the key to winning isn't the myth of Luke Skywalker destroying the Empire as a single Jedi, yet that's the story the kid is showing at the end.
Maybe you don't have to be baffled by why people think the message is pretty muddled?
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Point of fact, Ewoks aren't cannibals for eating humans.
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True. We don't see any ewok on ewok eating. But its easier to shorthand "Willing to eat fellow sapient beings" as cannibal then to say Stormtrooparians.
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the ewoks were super up front about being humanitarians and were pretty perplexed when the imperial army were excited to set up shop in the area anyway
No, it's baffling. Your post is a perfect example of this since you are literally mixing up the timeline of the movie in order to get cute and make this work.
-> Holdo brings up the theme that they have to survive so they can bring hope to the galaxy and begin the rebellion
-> then they get their asses kicked over and over again for much of the movie
-> then they ask for help and no one comes, this is their lowest point
-> then right as Leia is about to give up, Luke shows up
-> Luke saves the day and becomes a symbol of the ability to resist the First Order and allows the last of the Resistance to escape
-> Leia says they have everything they need after all of this happens because now they've survived and the legend of Luke Skywalker facing an entire army and winning has inspired people across the galaxy
Yeah, I'm sure this makes a lot less sense if you don't put the events in order but that's true of every story. And also incredibly disingenuous as an argument.
Also, when Luke says "X can't be done" and then later in the movie, after he's gone through his character arc, he then does X, that's a callback. It's a setup and payoff. A very common storytelling device that I'm very incredulous that people have not seen before.
EDIT:
Like, seriously, this is literally like an argument saying "The Matrix doesn't make any sense. Neo tells Trinity he's not The One! And then suddenly he's The One?". Come on.
pewpew
My disappointment with the movie catalyzed into hatred pretty much purely through discussions on this forum. Like it's a personal failing to not care for the movie or recognize RJ's genius filmmaking. Twitter picked it as a culture war battleground so now if you don't like it you're a lesser person, as proven because the chuds don't like it either. And so I dug deep into it, thinking maybe I would learn to like it, and instead came out thinking less of the movie the more I dug.
Even then, it might even be the best of the trilogy (TFA is competent, but the way it set the stage is at fault for everything else). But I'd rather watch the other two.
It’s like that time we all watched Rashomon.
I found it to be largely enjoyable but flawed in a lot of ways, and I held my breath during Holdo's sacrifice. I have friends who absolutely love the film as a whole, and I know people who either agree with me or have even worse opinions. Based on my entirely anecdotal evidence, most people seem to really like TLJ and either thought TROS was boring or an active dumpster fire. But in none of those cases do I think that any of these people are coming from some kind of fundamental misunderstanding of the film itself or that they are inherently sexist/racist/dumb/whatever.
Film as a medium is meant to communicate ideas (unless you are making a film entirely for yourself, a bucket in which I'm pretty sure these films do not fall within). While people do bear some responsibility for being receptive to and paying attention to the film, simply dismissing someone's negative reaction out-of-hand based on misremembering details or poor recollection misses the larger issue that they didn't like the film. Emotions and intuition precede rationalizations. If the film intended to convey a particular theme or idea, or intended to be resonant in some way, and it failed to do any of those things, then I'd argue the primary fault (but not all of it) lies with the film itself rather than the audience it is attempting to reach.
We have these same discussions about films like Fight Club or, the more recent asinine fiasco, Cuties (where the issue lies more with the dumbest fucking marketing on the planet and people willing to have opinions about shit they didn't actually watch and then make themselves feel good on the internet by yelling about it, rather than the film itself).
At the end of the day people won't remember what you said or did, they will remember how you made them feel. Maybe people can't accurately rationalize or analyze or describe what it is about a film that turned them off. But the core point is that it did turn them off in some way.
P.S. - JJ Abrams is a hack.
Best fight scene in all nine movies!
You have bad opinions and should feel bad.
jk jk u do u fam internet fist bump
No. Holdo said the Resistance gives the people hope. And that hope would eventually build into a revolution that would restore the republic. She never made a claim that galaxy will immediately rise up and come to their aid. She only said that if they successfully escape they can continue to build the revolution.
Leia is repeating the exact same thing Holdo did. They have everything the need because the Resistance has survived and the galaxy has hope to build that revolution.
Luke didn't say anything about myth. He said [essentially] "what can one man do against an army?" And he was correct that the answer to that question is nothing. But what Luke needed to relearn, with a little kick in the ass from Yoda, is a Jedi, with the Force as his ally, could. That is what can stop an army without even lifting a finger as Luke does. That is the story the kid retells that is inspiring the galaxy. A story of a Resistance desperately fighting against tyranny and of a Jedi using the Force to do the impossible. Not the story of a man with a laser sword beating up endless waves of mooks.
Yeah, I don't see us reconciling opinions.
the best ST lightsaber fight was, ironically, in TROS, when Kylo and Rey were dueling with the translocation power. Shows a good struggle, has cool visuals, and isn't muddied by excess fighters left with nothing to do.
It may well be that someone's opinion of the quality of those scenes are dependent upon whether they an appreciate that aesthetic for what it is, rather than expecting something a little more modern in its execution. I think it I saw that fight in a different context I would've enjoyed it more for what it is.
I don't really hold it much against a fight scene that shifting your eyes where it doesn't want them makes it fall apart, as long as it keeps your eyes from doing that the first time through?
Empire
Jedi
TLJ—Luke v Kylo
TFA
TLJ—Throne Room
TPM
TROS*
Star Wars
AOTC
ROTS
*Having only seen TROS once, I don’t feel qualified to rank it, but I think I’d put it there.
We need some more laser swords people. That's why we're here!
I don't know, that doesn't really sound like it describes the fight to me. It seemed very in line with the style JJ came out with for TFA, which was a really nice synthesis of the OT and the PT imo. A lot more fluid and showy then the fights from ESB or ROTJ but without the over-the-top silliness of the later PT stuff.
Now I can't unsee it.