I mean... yes? Different classes do different things and the power spike of these subclasses is far above the level they are expected to be behaving at...
I don't have the book, can you give us an example of one of the overly powerful subclasses and what it's stronger than? Not trying to give you a homework assignment, just curious.
Well like the Cloud Rune as an example
Not only does it give you advantage on two skills but it also doubles the value of a typical action economy being able to reverse a hit AND do damage to an enemy at the same time. And it recharges on a short rest! Stone Rune is similar, not only are the rune saves based off a primary stat(con) but this is another short rest ability that also gives you huge advantages just normally. And then master of runes! makes all of those twice as good. And they get bonus damage
telekinetic master lets you get a primary weapon attack as a bonus action (for as long as you can maintain concentration effectively) for a resource you have 2xproficiency/LR+1 times per short rest
There is more (not everything is power creeping but a lot is) but the fighters stand out the most to me
These are nice abilities for a fighter, but I'd say they aren't super overpowered. You get to cast Charm 3 times a day roughly, with about the same success (probably less since con is probably going to be less than strength) as a wizard, and re-directing damage is the same. You might be able to do it 3 times a day. Seems like a good ability to fuck with a mage. The advantage on ability checks is nice, but Charisma is a dump stat so it means you might actually be effective at it for a change, and how often is the fighter going to be stealing shit? Not very often, it's going to be VERY situationally useful.
I think you are overstating it when these are "Huge" advantages.
I'd say it's really good but it's not Echo Knight good
I mean... yes? Different classes do different things and the power spike of these subclasses is far above the level they are expected to be behaving at...
I don't have the book, can you give us an example of one of the overly powerful subclasses and what it's stronger than? Not trying to give you a homework assignment, just curious.
Well like the Cloud Rune as an example
Not only does it give you advantage on two skills but it also doubles the value of a typical action economy being able to reverse a hit AND do damage to an enemy at the same time. And it recharges on a short rest! Stone Rune is similar, not only are the rune saves based off a primary stat(con) but this is another short rest ability that also gives you huge advantages just normally. And then master of runes! makes all of those twice as good. And they get bonus damage
telekinetic master lets you get a primary weapon attack as a bonus action (for as long as you can maintain concentration effectively) for a resource you have 2xproficiency/LR+1 times per short rest
There is more (not everything is power creeping but a lot is) but the fighters stand out the most to me
These are nice abilities for a fighter, but I'd say they aren't super overpowered. You get to cast Charm 3 times a day roughly, with about the same success (probably less since con is probably going to be less than strength) as a wizard, and re-directing damage is the same. You might be able to do it 3 times a day. Seems like a good ability to fuck with a mage. The advantage on ability checks is nice, but Charisma is a dump stat so it means you might actually be effective at it for a change, and how often is the fighter going to be stealing shit? Not very often, it's going to be VERY situationally useful.
I think you are overstating it when these are "Huge" advantages.
You get 2,3,4,5 abilities which recharge on a short rest eventually being able to use them twice per short rest which means, in general, 4 times per day. And they're all extremely powerful things.
The charm ability as an example is a reaction. Once up to twice per short rest! Its a wisdom save (which isn't that great) but its based on your con, which is going to be high and is a super easy thing to increase. You're a fighter you get 4 stat ups by level 10!
EK's have to use their action to cast a spell equivalent, and the save is based on their intelligence, which is not nearly so good to increase than your con! And they get fewer spell slots for that, per day, than the Rune Knight will get per short rest...
If you... just got that... it would be pretty powerful. But you don't you also get...
Giants Might, which is a bonus action that adds a d6 of damage to your attacks(which scales upwards) that you can use a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus is... right out of the gate, stronger than raging.
And you get another reroll ability for free at 7th level, again that you can use any number of times equal to your proficiency that forces enemies to reroll attacks.
Scriveners get to replace damage types with any spell in their book and cannot ever lose their book among a bunch of other really amazingly powerful abilities like being able to cast around corners a number of times per day equal to their proficiency bonus.
I mean... yes? Different classes do different things and the power spike of these subclasses is far above the level they are expected to be behaving at...
I don't have the book, can you give us an example of one of the overly powerful subclasses and what it's stronger than? Not trying to give you a homework assignment, just curious.
Well like the Cloud Rune as an example
Not only does it give you advantage on two skills but it also doubles the value of a typical action economy being able to reverse a hit AND do damage to an enemy at the same time. And it recharges on a short rest! Stone Rune is similar, not only are the rune saves based off a primary stat(con) but this is another short rest ability that also gives you huge advantages just normally. And then master of runes! makes all of those twice as good. And they get bonus damage
telekinetic master lets you get a primary weapon attack as a bonus action (for as long as you can maintain concentration effectively) for a resource you have 2xproficiency/LR+1 times per short rest
There is more (not everything is power creeping but a lot is) but the fighters stand out the most to me
These are nice abilities for a fighter, but I'd say they aren't super overpowered. You get to cast Charm 3 times a day roughly, with about the same success (probably less since con is probably going to be less than strength) as a wizard, and re-directing damage is the same. You might be able to do it 3 times a day. Seems like a good ability to fuck with a mage. The advantage on ability checks is nice, but Charisma is a dump stat so it means you might actually be effective at it for a change, and how often is the fighter going to be stealing shit? Not very often, it's going to be VERY situationally useful.
I think you are overstating it when these are "Huge" advantages.
I'd say it's really good but it's not Echo Knight good
god fucking damn is Echo Knight strong (and fun!)
They're pretty echo knight strong( but not quite) But wildemount is also much must stronger than anything that is (for example) AL legal.
Special Equipment. Arcane Grimoire +3, Large Barrier Tattoo, Poison Absorbing Tattoo. Contingency. Dimension door is cast when the Ordinator Arcanis’ hit point total is reduced to 45 hit points or less. Innate Spellcasting. The Ordinator Arcanis’ innate spellcasting ability is Intelligence (spell save DC 19, +11 to hit with spell attacks). The Ordinator Arcanis can innately cast the following spells, requiring no material components:
At will: detect thoughts, invisibility, mirror image, misty step, shield
Magic Resistance. The Ordinator Arcanis has advantage on saving throws against spells and other magical effects. Spellcasting. The Ordinator Arcanis is an 18th-level spellcaster. Their spellcasting ability is Intelligence (spell save DC 22, +14 to hit with spell attacks). The Ordinator Arcanis has the following wizard spells prepared:
Unknowable Secrets. The Ordinator Arcanis is immune to psychic damage, any effect that would sense their emotions, modify their memories, or read their thoughts, as well as divination spells and the charmed condition. This even foils wish spells and spells or effects of similar power used to affect the target’s mind or to gain information about the target. Any creature that uses an ability that would cause one of the nullified effects takes 6d6 psychic damage,
Actions Withered Hand. +14. Reach 5 ft. 5d6 + 20 force damage. If this damage reduces the target to 0 hit points, it is disintegrated. Chill Touch. +14. Range 120 ft. 4d8 necrotic damage, and the target can't regain hit points until the start of the Ordinator Arcanis’ next turn. Until then, the hand clings to the target. If the target is undead, it also has disadvantage on attack rolls against you until the end of the Ordinator Arcanis’ next turn. Steal Memory (1/Day). The Ordinator Arcanis targets one creature it can see within 60 feet of it. The target takes 6d6 psychic damage, and it must make a DC 19 Intelligence saving throw. On a successful save, the target becomes immune to the Ordinator Arcanis’ Steal Memory for 24 hours. On a failed save, the target loses all proficiencies, it can't cast spells, it can't understand language, and if its Intelligence and Charisma scores are higher than 5, they become 5. Each time the target finishes a long rest, it can repeat the saving throw, ending the effect on itself on a success. A greater restoration or remove curse spell cast on the target ends this effect early.
Reactions Poison Damage Absorption (1/day). When the Ordinator Arcanis takes poison damage, they can use their reaction to gain immunity against that instance of the damage, and they regain a number of hit points equal to half the damage they would have taken. Shield. Until the start of the Ordinator Arcanis’ next turn, they have a +5 bonus to AC, including against the triggering attack, and they take no damage from magic missile.
Hexmage-PA on
+3
Options
webguy20I spend too much time on the InternetRegistered Userregular
I mean... yes? Different classes do different things and the power spike of these subclasses is far above the level they are expected to be behaving at...
I don't have the book, can you give us an example of one of the overly powerful subclasses and what it's stronger than? Not trying to give you a homework assignment, just curious.
Well like the Cloud Rune as an example
Not only does it give you advantage on two skills but it also doubles the value of a typical action economy being able to reverse a hit AND do damage to an enemy at the same time. And it recharges on a short rest! Stone Rune is similar, not only are the rune saves based off a primary stat(con) but this is another short rest ability that also gives you huge advantages just normally. And then master of runes! makes all of those twice as good. And they get bonus damage
telekinetic master lets you get a primary weapon attack as a bonus action (for as long as you can maintain concentration effectively) for a resource you have 2xproficiency/LR+1 times per short rest
There is more (not everything is power creeping but a lot is) but the fighters stand out the most to me
These are nice abilities for a fighter, but I'd say they aren't super overpowered. You get to cast Charm 3 times a day roughly, with about the same success (probably less since con is probably going to be less than strength) as a wizard, and re-directing damage is the same. You might be able to do it 3 times a day. Seems like a good ability to fuck with a mage. The advantage on ability checks is nice, but Charisma is a dump stat so it means you might actually be effective at it for a change, and how often is the fighter going to be stealing shit? Not very often, it's going to be VERY situationally useful.
I think you are overstating it when these are "Huge" advantages.
You get 2,3,4,5 abilities which recharge on a short rest eventually being able to use them twice per short rest which means, in general, 4 times per day. And they're all extremely powerful things.
The charm ability as an example is a reaction. Once up to twice per short rest! Its a wisdom save (which isn't that great) but its based on your con, which is going to be high and is a super easy thing to increase. You're a fighter you get 4 stat ups by level 10!
EK's have to use their action to cast a spell equivalent, and the save is based on their intelligence, which is not nearly so good to increase than your con! And they get fewer spell slots for that, per day, than the Rune Knight will get per short rest...
If you... just got that... it would be pretty powerful. But you don't you also get...
Giants Might, which is a bonus action that adds a d6 of damage to your attacks(which scales upwards) that you can use a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus is... right out of the gate, stronger than raging.
And you get another reroll ability for free at 7th level, again that you can use any number of times equal to your proficiency that forces enemies to reroll attacks.
Scriveners get to replace damage types with any spell in their book and cannot ever lose their book among a bunch of other really amazingly powerful abilities like being able to cast around corners a number of times per day equal to their proficiency bonus.
So Rune knight can cast charm more than the EK, thats ALL they can cast, so more uses, but less versatility. That seems fine.
Giants strength is one attack gets the 1d6, can be used each day equal to your proficiency, so 10.5 damage on average? The barbarian has to hit 6 times to equal it with their rage damage (while raging), and the barbarian is getting rage damage a couple levels earlier too. So maybe between levels 3-4 they are comparable at best, but as Barbarian picks up extra attack at 5, then additional rage damage at level 9 they'll continue to outpace the Rune knight. The Battlemaster fighter has easily half of his maneuvers add a d8 to damage, so that kind of additional dice damage isn't new,
Runic shield at around level 10-12 (I'd have to check comparable monsters) will just become a crit cancelling ability, as enemies start being able to hit players with middling rolls due to their stat bonuses, which is fine.
Also all the abilities that double are at level 15, which is whatever, it's level 15, that's high level play anyways, go nuts, saves will be harder by then anyways.
Honestly the Rune Knight comes off as a super badass viking support fighter. Lots of great abilities to help out their allies and de-buff enemies. Honestly I really like it, you can do something cool every round or two every couple battles, depending on how your DM structures things.
Alright Question as well
Playing a Artificer that will go Armorer, I'm aiming for Iron Man. I plan to multiclass a bit, but here is where I am torn. I am going to multiclass after level 5 (2 attacks with my armor at 5). Do I dip 2 levels in Warlock for eldritch blast and invocations and be very thematically iron man? Or do I do a 2 level dip of Wizard to pick up shield, and war mage which gives me a +2 AC/+4 saves when I use my reaction, and adding Int to initiative? Though I suppose I can't really stack shield and the war mage ability, because they are both reactions. Hmmm.
Giants might is +1d6 to all attacks for a minute as a bonus action (this scales to 1d8 to 1d10(?) a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus. So 2 minutes at level 3 and 6 minutes at level 20. Which is to say “giants might lasts the entirety of a combat encounter for a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus”.
The battle master gets 6dx per short rest extra damage... at level 20. This is far beyond that at level 3. Not including the two runes that give them advantage on four skills and give powerful reaction or non-action abilities.
Playing a Artificer that will go Armorer, I'm aiming for Iron Man. I plan to multiclass a bit, but here is where I am torn. I am going to multiclass after level 5 (2 attacks with my armor at 5). Do I dip 2 levels in Warlock for eldritch blast and invocations and be very thematically iron man? Or do I do a 2 level dip of Wizard to pick up shield, and war mage which gives me a +2 AC/+4 saves when I use my reaction, and adding Int to initiative? Though I suppose I can't really stack shield and the war mage ability, because they are both reactions. Hmmm.
Are you set on the MC. Because magic init or the New eldrich feat that gives you an invocation might work instead.
If you’re going war mage for the reaction don’t get shield is my thought and repelling blast on top of EB is super iron-man
0
Options
webguy20I spend too much time on the InternetRegistered Userregular
Giants might is +1d6 to all attacks for a minute as a bonus action (this scales to 1d8 to 1d10(?) a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus. So 2 minutes at level 3 and 6 minutes at level 20. Which is to say “giants might lasts the entirety of a combat encounter for a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus”.
The battle master gets 6dx per short rest extra damage... at level 20. This is far beyond that at level 3. Not including the two runes that give them advantage on four skills and give powerful reaction or non-action abilities.
Even at a minute I don't think it's overpowered, its just straight damage. The battlemaster gets the 6dx+ability by 15, not 20, and a single target charm shouldn't be game breaking unless players only ever attack single or paired enemies, and again, the enemy has to fail the save, and subsequent saves, and the advantage on the five skills are fairly situational skills for a fighter who probably doesn't have great stats and no proficiency in those areas. I can see Deception, Intimidation and insight being useful. Animal Handling and Slight of hand will still be next to useless except in very specific circumstances.
Also above, it's one attack per turn, not all attacks, and since it specifically says turn, I would say it doesn't work on opportunity attacks either.
Really, this class just goes to show how single note the previous fighters were. It's been a joke for a while now that if you were a fighter you left the role playing to the other characters. With certain runes now you have a fighting chance of getting a good roll. Really what we are seeing is fleshed out fighters, and not the basic Champion, the underpowered EK or the stripped down Warlord.
It just feels like yelling power creep about a fighter that actually does something.
So I wound up throwing out the character I was going to run with originally for our new Rime campaign due to an overabundance of damage dealer centric classes and instead decided to run with a more or less random character using tasha's and Xanathars that spat out a really unique character:
Esmerelda Strackheln, a Gold dwarf carpenter who was more interested in having a decent career then anything exciting and wound up going further and further north due to circumstances involving run ins with criminals and also getting involved with a tiefling merchant who she fell in love with, and that ultimately it was their journey to the ten towns (about as far from civilization as you can get) that awakened her to her latent druidic abilities. Her husband rode south when things started to get bad ostensibly so he could get help while she stayed behind to ostensibly keep things going.
Also I am totes going Circle of the stars so I can wild shape into constellations.
I don't actually know if any of these fighter classes outdamage a battlemaster using all their superiority dice to make sure great weapon master actually hits, if you're short resting after every combat a GWM battlemaster puts out truly ludicrous damage
I'm glad they added some new maneuvers that can be used in non combat situations because as Webguy says, fighters are soooo one note out of combat
I don't actually know if any of these fighter classes outdamage a battlemaster using all their superiority dice to make sure great weapon master actually hits
Oh. Almost certainly. GWM isn’t even that valuable compared to regular attacking in terms of DPR. (I mean, it’s valuable but not that valuable) A single success/failure of your reaction charm will flatten the GWM advantage. The “as a reaction when an enemy hits an ally it actually hits an enemy” flattens the Battlemaster right out the gate. And you can get both
If you hit 60% of the time then a 1d12 battlemaster will move you from .6* dmg -> .75 x dmg + 10. Which is about 45 to 58.5 dmg/short rest. 6d12 is 39 dmg to 78 dmg (depending on your number of crits)
battlemaster gets the 6dx+ability by 15
Just 6dx.
I also do not understand how you can say fighters cannot role play. You get plenty of proficiencies already you’re going to be better at things the other members aren’t proficient in for the majority of the game even on their good stats
Idk Its too late to crunch the numbers but I played an archery/sharpshooter battlemaster who exclusively used precision attack on dice that seemed like they were going to miss and I did so much damage the character literally wasn't fun to play, when you do 90 damage in one round at 5th level with a nonmagical hand crossbow it's like "okay yeah... this character isn't even fun"
My first idea was to have the characters infiltrate a prison run by followers of Torog, god of suffering, rescue someone, and get out without anyone alive knowing what happened. I was all jazzed for the idea and even went ahead and made maps for it on Monday.
However...I have serious doubts this group can pull off a stealth mission. I'd probably need to spoon feed them info like "hey, you should probably pay someone you trust to cast nondetection on you guys in case anyone tries to scry on you". This is also the prison that Ordinator Arcanis guy sends people to, so maybe should wait until the party is higher level until I use this scenario.
So now instead I'm considering the party being betrayed by supposed allies and captured by duergar.
0
Options
joshgotroDeviled EggThe Land of REAL CHILIRegistered Userregular
Running the last episode of Mandalorian as a one shot tonight.
Idk Its too late to crunch the numbers but I played an archery/sharpshooter battlemaster who exclusively used precision attack on dice that seemed like they were going to miss and I did so much damage the character literally wasn't fun to play, when you do 90 damage in one round at 5th level with a nonmagical hand crossbow it's like "okay yeah... this character isn't even fun"
I know it was exaggerated for effect, but I would be curious how you got even close to that. Precision Attack doesn't add to damage, so all you're left with is two regular attacks (and this is assuming you also somehow worked your way around the crossbow's Loading property), four if you action surge.
Idk Its too late to crunch the numbers but I played an archery/sharpshooter battlemaster who exclusively used precision attack on dice that seemed like they were going to miss and I did so much damage the character literally wasn't fun to play, when you do 90 damage in one round at 5th level with a nonmagical hand crossbow it's like "okay yeah... this character isn't even fun"
I know it was exaggerated for effect, but I would be curious how you got even close to that. Precision Attack doesn't add to damage, so all you're left with is two regular attacks (and this is assuming you also somehow worked your way around the crossbow's Loading property), four if you action surge.
Crossbow expert gives you a 5th attack with a hand crossbow and you ignore the loading property
If you've got a +4 in dex your base damage with a sharp shooter hit is 15 damage, 5 of those is 75 damage. Max is 20 damage per hit with a max of 100 damage across 5 hits. You use precision shot to make sure the -5 to hit doesn't stop you from hitting all 5
Hm, I'm going to need that broken down a bit. A 5th level fighter would only have a single extra attack, so that's 3 shots at most, right? And I'm assuming all of them are made with the hand crossbow, because all the other ranged weapons are 2 handed, so you couldn't get the 3rd attack off, but in that case, how is 1d6+4 converting into 15 damage?
Hm, I'm going to need that broken down a bit. A 5th level fighter would only have a single extra attack, so that's 3 shots at most, right? And I'm assuming all of them are made with the hand crossbow, because all the other ranged weapons are 2 handed, so you couldn't get the 3rd attack off, but in that case, how is 1d6+4 converting into 15 damage?
Sharp shooter is -5 to hit +10 to damage so the min damage for a hit is 10+4+1=15, max damage is 10+4+6=20
Crossbow expert removes the loading property and allows the third bonus action attack because the hand crossbow itself is a one handed weapon you're making your attacks with. The 4th and 5th attacks come from the action surge attack action.
Hm, I'm going to need that broken down a bit. A 5th level fighter would only have a single extra attack, so that's 3 shots at most, right? And I'm assuming all of them are made with the hand crossbow, because all the other ranged weapons are 2 handed, so you couldn't get the 3rd attack off, but in that case, how is 1d6+4 converting into 15 damage?
A human fighter at fifth level could do it since it requires 2 feats. You get crossbow expert which removes loading and gives you the bonus attack as well as removing range considerations. Then you get sharpshooter which lets you take a -5 to hit for +10 to damage. This would go to a net +1 before superiority dice with a +4 dex bonus. Still that is 64 base damage plus whatever you roll which averages to 78 in that round. I can't think of a creature you would throw at a typical 5th level party that would be much of a threat (if it was even alive) after that much damage thrown at it. Reasonably sustainable too if you are ok with more misses when you run out of superiority dice, and only lose 1 attack on subsequent rounds.
Hm, I'm going to need that broken down a bit. A 5th level fighter would only have a single extra attack, so that's 3 shots at most, right? And I'm assuming all of them are made with the hand crossbow, because all the other ranged weapons are 2 handed, so you couldn't get the 3rd attack off, but in that case, how is 1d6+4 converting into 15 damage?
Sharp shooter is -5 to hit +10 to damage so the min damage for a hit is 10+4+1=15, max damage is 10+4+6=20
Crossbow expert removes the loading property and allows the third bonus action attack because the hand crossbow itself is a one handed weapon you're making your attacks with. The 4th and 5th attacks come from the action surge attack action.
Maybe I am missing something but how do you get two attacks out of the action surge? You still only get one bonus action for the round if I am reading action surge correctly.
Hm, I'm going to need that broken down a bit. A 5th level fighter would only have a single extra attack, so that's 3 shots at most, right? And I'm assuming all of them are made with the hand crossbow, because all the other ranged weapons are 2 handed, so you couldn't get the 3rd attack off, but in that case, how is 1d6+4 converting into 15 damage?
Sharp shooter is -5 to hit +10 to damage so the min damage for a hit is 10+4+1=15, max damage is 10+4+6=20
Crossbow expert removes the loading property and allows the third bonus action attack because the hand crossbow itself is a one handed weapon you're making your attacks with. The 4th and 5th attacks come from the action surge attack action.
Maybe I am missing something but how do you get two attacks out of the action surge? You still only get one bonus action for the round if I am reading action surge correctly.
Nah you get a full additional action so a full 2 attacks with the attack action.
0
Options
WearingglassesOf the friendly neighborhood varietyRegistered Userregular
Hm, I'm going to need that broken down a bit. A 5th level fighter would only have a single extra attack, so that's 3 shots at most, right? And I'm assuming all of them are made with the hand crossbow, because all the other ranged weapons are 2 handed, so you couldn't get the 3rd attack off, but in that case, how is 1d6+4 converting into 15 damage?
Sharp shooter is -5 to hit +10 to damage so the min damage for a hit is 10+4+1=15, max damage is 10+4+6=20
Crossbow expert removes the loading property and allows the third bonus action attack because the hand crossbow itself is a one handed weapon you're making your attacks with. The 4th and 5th attacks come from the action surge attack action.
Maybe I am missing something but how do you get two attacks out of the action surge? You still only get one bonus action for the round if I am reading action surge correctly.
You get one more Action, which you use to make an Attack action, where you get to attack twice since you're at fifth level.
Hm, I'm going to need that broken down a bit. A 5th level fighter would only have a single extra attack, so that's 3 shots at most, right? And I'm assuming all of them are made with the hand crossbow, because all the other ranged weapons are 2 handed, so you couldn't get the 3rd attack off, but in that case, how is 1d6+4 converting into 15 damage?
Sharp shooter is -5 to hit +10 to damage so the min damage for a hit is 10+4+1=15, max damage is 10+4+6=20
Crossbow expert removes the loading property and allows the third bonus action attack because the hand crossbow itself is a one handed weapon you're making your attacks with. The 4th and 5th attacks come from the action surge attack action.
Maybe I am missing something but how do you get two attacks out of the action surge? You still only get one bonus action for the round if I am reading action surge correctly.
Action surge lets you take another attack action, which at level 5 is two attacks.
Ah, second feat, that's what I was missing (I never roll humans). I guess assuming that when your average roll hits AC14 it's not too unreasonable that you'd only miss once per turn (as you can only apply superiority dice to one attack).
Ah, second feat, that's what I was missing (I never roll humans). I guess assuming that when your average roll hits AC14 it's not too unreasonable that you'd only miss once per turn (as you can only apply superiority dice to one attack).
You can apply superiority dice to every attack in a turn, you can only add one superiority die to each attack
Quick Question: I know the Enlarge option from Enlarge/Reduce doesn't stack, but what if a duergar that used its Enlarge racial ability were affected by the Enlarge option from the Enlarge/Reduce spell? Would it be able to achieve Huge size then, since the source of the effects is different?
I'm considering having the 6th-level party go three on one against a duergar Warlord NPC who starts the battle Medium but increases to Large, and finally to Huge. I need to devise ways to help the PCs not be totally curb-stomped, such as by adding terrain that is to their favor (or maybe even having a rival duergar sabotage their enemy in some way). The duergar would have to take an action to increase size each time, so that at least would give them a little opportunity to deal damage while avoiding it themselves.
The party composition is a bard/cleric, sorcerer, and monk. I may decide that one or two allied martial NPCs also join their side in the battle for some reason.
Give the druegar some temp HP as a result of his transformation. Then make him go large on like round 2 and then huge when he gets bloodied. Make his transformation take up an action (this gives the players a full action in the round to heal/etc.) or legendary action if it’s that type of monster. And is some way generally slow their action economy.
In general you’re not going to have much of an issue not having a single monster kill your party. It’s super easy to mess with their action economy to make them less effective but more fun. Usually you’re going to have to upscale single enemies to make them effective.
An example. Have them pick up the fighter and throw them. Less damage than a normal attack but moves them far enough away it takes two rounds to get into melee. This is generally less powerful than just attacking because it only removes 1/4 of the action economy for the enemies for one round and downing an enemy is usually better but it puts the wizard between the fighter and the enemy which feels threatening. And it forces your players to consider the terrain.
Edit: a single druegar warlord is CR 6, if your party of three Players are level 6 this isn’t even a medium encounter for them.
Ah, second feat, that's what I was missing (I never roll humans). I guess assuming that when your average roll hits AC14 it's not too unreasonable that you'd only miss once per turn (as you can only apply superiority dice to one attack).
You can apply superiority dice to every attack in a turn, you can only add one superiority die to each attack
Oooh. I really, really hate that "attack action" and "attack" are two different concepts in the book, it makes parsing stuff correctly feel like I'm doing legal homework.
Idk Its too late to crunch the numbers but I played an archery/sharpshooter battlemaster who exclusively used precision attack on dice that seemed like they were going to miss and I did so much damage the character literally wasn't fun to play, when you do 90 damage in one round at 5th level with a nonmagical hand crossbow it's like "okay yeah... this character isn't even fun"
I know it was exaggerated for effect, but I would be curious how you got even close to that. Precision Attack doesn't add to damage, so all you're left with is two regular attacks (and this is assuming you also somehow worked your way around the crossbow's Loading property), four if you action surge.
yeah the maximum damage on that character (with archery, bless, and precision attack you have a fairly good hit chance with sharpshooter!)
5d6(avg 17.5)+15(16dex)+50(ss)= average 82.5 points of damage if all 5 hit (yeah, that's a big if, one of the advantages is that you don't have to waste a precision dice on a lost cause)
bonus: you can use a damaging maneuver on your high rolls for extra nova
this depends heavily on what you're fighting whether you'd even try this
HV: crossbow expert->level 4 ss-> level 6 + 2 dex
The thing is, it's so much damage, if you land 2 of your 3 hits, you're averaging 33 damage at level 5, 35 at level 6, add in +crossbow bolts and a magical crossbow and you can get into stupid land
This is why I have always tries to ignore the -5/+10 feats. It just makes combat kind of lame.
It would be kind of interesting to play a character who could do something like that, and play them as this really brash "you call this a fight?" type personality that just sort of toys with their enemies for fun but the moment you actually hurt/threaten them they just drop a nuke.
The type of character where your victory condition is getting them to have to actually use their most powerful attack. To make them feel like they have to actually try
in my games I've replaced GWM and SS with "Power Attack" and "Sharpshooter Attack" - they -Prof and add +2xProf damage. They're actually better at lower levels because you miss less, and they deal good damage still
Edit: a single druegar warlord is CR 6, if your party of three Players are level 6 this isn’t even a medium encounter for them.
Oh, no, I don't mean the Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes one. I mean the CR 12 Warlord from Volo's Guide to Monsters with duergar racial abilities tacked on.
If they lose they won't be killed, but enslaved and have to find a way to escape. However, the duergar's new wife wants him to die and her in-laws to be disgraced so that she can lead a coup against her father-in-law, so she'll try to find a way to shift things in the party's favor.
I've already rolled for poisons, psionic effects, and even a succubus' draining kiss she could use to weaken him, but it's hard to make a duergar fail a save.
EDIT: I recall the 4E Dark Sun book having obstacles, traps, and exploitable terrain for arena battles. Maybe I can mine that for inspiration.
So Rune knight can cast charm more than the EK, thats ALL they can cast, so more uses, but less versatility. That seems fine.
Wanted to go back to this because its not "all they can cast" and the manner in which they cast it is important.
They get two runes at level 3, scaling up to 5 runes. This gives them 2-5 short rest abilities. They can get the ability to be resistant to bludgeoning/piercing/slashing damage for a minute 1-2 times per short rest... the rune also gives them permanent resistance to poison damage... Not "non-magical" but any. They can get the ability to restrain creatures (str save) on a hit, no action which also does 2d6 dmg/round on top of this while they're not saved. Again 1-2 times per short rest. The ability that gives them the reaction incapacitation ability also gives them 120 ft of darkvision. The same rune that gives you the ability to not be surprised also lets you use your reaction to grant any action within 60 feet advantage or disadvantage for a minute.
Most of these are absurd in and of themselves. Let alone getting all of them and more abilities on top of this!
0
Options
webguy20I spend too much time on the InternetRegistered Userregular
So Rune knight can cast charm more than the EK, thats ALL they can cast, so more uses, but less versatility. That seems fine.
Wanted to go back to this because its not "all they can cast" and the manner in which they cast it is important.
They get two runes at level 3, scaling up to 5 runes. This gives them 2-5 short rest abilities. They can get the ability to be resistant to bludgeoning/piercing/slashing damage for a minute 1-2 times per short rest... the rune also gives them permanent resistance to poison damage... Not "non-magical" but any. They can get the ability to restrain creatures (str save) on a hit, no action which also does 2d6 dmg/round on top of this while they're not saved. Again 1-2 times per short rest. The ability that gives them the reaction incapacitation ability also gives them 120 ft of darkvision. The same rune that gives you the ability to not be surprised also lets you use your reaction to grant any action within 60 feet advantage or disadvantage for a minute.
Most of these are absurd in and of themselves. Let alone getting all of them and more abilities on top of this!
Sure but they are sucking up your reaction/bonus action economy. For example the advantage ability requires your reaction to grant it to an ally, AND you have to decide which ally, which means you can't use your charm ability, or opportunity attacks, so that doesn't work well if you are trying to use sentinel too. You have to pick and choose when you want to fire them off. Bonus action stuff will interfere with second wind and polearm master stuff if you are trying to go with one of those builds. Finally they get the 2nd use of their runes at level 15, which is high level play and something we've all complained is unbalanced across the board, and a place most campaigns never get to. I'm not worried about that stuff.
Again, I'd still state that "absurb" is a hyperbolic statement.
Lvl 3 feature: You're good at everything with a short rest. This is just bad power creep design. Interesting roleplay kind of requires that there are things you're good at and things you're not good at. And while Rogues tend to be a bit better at more things and very good at a few things... this just negates that weakness and lets them be good at whatever they need to be for that situation.
Wails from the grave has effectively no limit because A) proficiency bonus times/day is a lot. And also because you can use your reaction to make another token to give you an extra use when any creature dies. Now ok there are a lot of things to use trinkets on. But they're not a terribly limited resource. You're going to get a lot of them over the course of an adventuring day.
Not every sub-class has these issues. The Soul Knife is actually reasonable except maybe for the 2x +1/sr proficiency hours of invisibility per day and Homing strikes only using a charge if it turns a miss into a hit is a bit... interesting... but the base psychic blades is actually a bit underpowered (two shortswords is 1d6 each rather than d6/d4) aside from not necessarily taking up your hands(which is not usually a huge issue)
0
Options
webguy20I spend too much time on the InternetRegistered Userregular
Lvl 3 feature: You're good at everything with a short rest. This is just bad power creep design. Interesting roleplay kind of requires that there are things you're good at and things you're not good at. And while Rogues tend to be a bit better at more things and very good at a few things... this just negates that weakness and lets them be good at whatever they need to be for that situation.
Wails from the grave has effectively no limit because A) proficiency bonus times/day is a lot. And also because you can use your reaction to make another token to give you an extra use when any creature dies. Now ok there are a lot of things to use trinkets on. But they're not a terribly limited resource. You're going to get a lot of them over the course of an adventuring day.
Not every sub-class has these issues. The Soul Knife is actually reasonable except maybe for the 2x +1/sr proficiency hours of invisibility per day and Homing strikes only using a charge if it turns a miss into a hit is a bit... interesting... but the base psychic blades is actually a bit underpowered (two shortswords is 1d6 each rather than d6/d4) aside from not necessarily taking up your hands(which is not usually a huge issue)
Bolded. You are good at something, per short rest, and you are already going to be really good at the things that you are going to be using all the time anyways just by being a rogue, so I imagine this will be very situational. "oh we are going to be doing a lot of talking this session? I'll make sure I can do at least a persuasion check decently". I think this will really come in handy in being able to give players the help action. You can be a jack of all trades helper. Never better than anyone else, but always able to lend a hand.
Phantom ability seems pretty reasonable, it's a floating skill proficiency that doesn't even get expertise.
Wails from the grave is 2 to 3 times per day until you get to trinkets and you don't get trinkets til 9th level and using the reaction to gain a trinket instead of holding on to your reaction so you can uncanny dodge is a calculated risk for rogues.
Posts
I'd say it's really good but it's not Echo Knight good
god fucking damn is Echo Knight strong (and fun!)
You get 2,3,4,5 abilities which recharge on a short rest eventually being able to use them twice per short rest which means, in general, 4 times per day. And they're all extremely powerful things.
The charm ability as an example is a reaction. Once up to twice per short rest! Its a wisdom save (which isn't that great) but its based on your con, which is going to be high and is a super easy thing to increase. You're a fighter you get 4 stat ups by level 10!
EK's have to use their action to cast a spell equivalent, and the save is based on their intelligence, which is not nearly so good to increase than your con! And they get fewer spell slots for that, per day, than the Rune Knight will get per short rest...
If you... just got that... it would be pretty powerful. But you don't you also get...
Giants Might, which is a bonus action that adds a d6 of damage to your attacks(which scales upwards) that you can use a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus is... right out of the gate, stronger than raging.
And you get another reroll ability for free at 7th level, again that you can use any number of times equal to your proficiency that forces enemies to reroll attacks.
Scriveners get to replace damage types with any spell in their book and cannot ever lose their book among a bunch of other really amazingly powerful abilities like being able to cast around corners a number of times per day equal to their proficiency bonus.
They're pretty echo knight strong( but not quite) But wildemount is also much must stronger than anything that is (for example) AL legal.
So Rune knight can cast charm more than the EK, thats ALL they can cast, so more uses, but less versatility. That seems fine.
Giants strength is one attack gets the 1d6, can be used each day equal to your proficiency, so 10.5 damage on average? The barbarian has to hit 6 times to equal it with their rage damage (while raging), and the barbarian is getting rage damage a couple levels earlier too. So maybe between levels 3-4 they are comparable at best, but as Barbarian picks up extra attack at 5, then additional rage damage at level 9 they'll continue to outpace the Rune knight. The Battlemaster fighter has easily half of his maneuvers add a d8 to damage, so that kind of additional dice damage isn't new,
Runic shield at around level 10-12 (I'd have to check comparable monsters) will just become a crit cancelling ability, as enemies start being able to hit players with middling rolls due to their stat bonuses, which is fine.
Also all the abilities that double are at level 15, which is whatever, it's level 15, that's high level play anyways, go nuts, saves will be harder by then anyways.
Honestly the Rune Knight comes off as a super badass viking support fighter. Lots of great abilities to help out their allies and de-buff enemies. Honestly I really like it, you can do something cool every round or two every couple battles, depending on how your DM structures things.
Alright Question as well
Playing a Artificer that will go Armorer, I'm aiming for Iron Man. I plan to multiclass a bit, but here is where I am torn. I am going to multiclass after level 5 (2 attacks with my armor at 5). Do I dip 2 levels in Warlock for eldritch blast and invocations and be very thematically iron man? Or do I do a 2 level dip of Wizard to pick up shield, and war mage which gives me a +2 AC/+4 saves when I use my reaction, and adding Int to initiative? Though I suppose I can't really stack shield and the war mage ability, because they are both reactions. Hmmm.
Origin ID: Discgolfer27
Untappd ID: Discgolfer1981
The battle master gets 6dx per short rest extra damage... at level 20. This is far beyond that at level 3. Not including the two runes that give them advantage on four skills and give powerful reaction or non-action abilities.
Are you set on the MC. Because magic init or the New eldrich feat that gives you an invocation might work instead.
If you’re going war mage for the reaction don’t get shield is my thought and repelling blast on top of EB is super iron-man
Even at a minute I don't think it's overpowered, its just straight damage. The battlemaster gets the 6dx+ability by 15, not 20, and a single target charm shouldn't be game breaking unless players only ever attack single or paired enemies, and again, the enemy has to fail the save, and subsequent saves, and the advantage on the five skills are fairly situational skills for a fighter who probably doesn't have great stats and no proficiency in those areas. I can see Deception, Intimidation and insight being useful. Animal Handling and Slight of hand will still be next to useless except in very specific circumstances.
Also above, it's one attack per turn, not all attacks, and since it specifically says turn, I would say it doesn't work on opportunity attacks either.
Really, this class just goes to show how single note the previous fighters were. It's been a joke for a while now that if you were a fighter you left the role playing to the other characters. With certain runes now you have a fighting chance of getting a good roll. Really what we are seeing is fleshed out fighters, and not the basic Champion, the underpowered EK or the stripped down Warlord.
It just feels like yelling power creep about a fighter that actually does something.
Origin ID: Discgolfer27
Untappd ID: Discgolfer1981
Esmerelda Strackheln, a Gold dwarf carpenter who was more interested in having a decent career then anything exciting and wound up going further and further north due to circumstances involving run ins with criminals and also getting involved with a tiefling merchant who she fell in love with, and that ultimately it was their journey to the ten towns (about as far from civilization as you can get) that awakened her to her latent druidic abilities. Her husband rode south when things started to get bad ostensibly so he could get help while she stayed behind to ostensibly keep things going.
Also I am totes going Circle of the stars so I can wild shape into constellations.
I'm glad they added some new maneuvers that can be used in non combat situations because as Webguy says, fighters are soooo one note out of combat
Oh. Almost certainly. GWM isn’t even that valuable compared to regular attacking in terms of DPR. (I mean, it’s valuable but not that valuable) A single success/failure of your reaction charm will flatten the GWM advantage. The “as a reaction when an enemy hits an ally it actually hits an enemy” flattens the Battlemaster right out the gate. And you can get both
If you hit 60% of the time then a 1d12 battlemaster will move you from .6* dmg -> .75 x dmg + 10. Which is about 45 to 58.5 dmg/short rest. 6d12 is 39 dmg to 78 dmg (depending on your number of crits)
Just 6dx.
I also do not understand how you can say fighters cannot role play. You get plenty of proficiencies already you’re going to be better at things the other members aren’t proficient in for the majority of the game even on their good stats
My first idea was to have the characters infiltrate a prison run by followers of Torog, god of suffering, rescue someone, and get out without anyone alive knowing what happened. I was all jazzed for the idea and even went ahead and made maps for it on Monday.
However...I have serious doubts this group can pull off a stealth mission. I'd probably need to spoon feed them info like "hey, you should probably pay someone you trust to cast nondetection on you guys in case anyone tries to scry on you". This is also the prison that Ordinator Arcanis guy sends people to, so maybe should wait until the party is higher level until I use this scenario.
So now instead I'm considering the party being betrayed by supposed allies and captured by duergar.
Infiltrate flying weapon cache. Steal it. Profit.
Crossbow expert gives you a 5th attack with a hand crossbow and you ignore the loading property
If you've got a +4 in dex your base damage with a sharp shooter hit is 15 damage, 5 of those is 75 damage. Max is 20 damage per hit with a max of 100 damage across 5 hits. You use precision shot to make sure the -5 to hit doesn't stop you from hitting all 5
Sharp shooter is -5 to hit +10 to damage so the min damage for a hit is 10+4+1=15, max damage is 10+4+6=20
Crossbow expert removes the loading property and allows the third bonus action attack because the hand crossbow itself is a one handed weapon you're making your attacks with. The 4th and 5th attacks come from the action surge attack action.
A human fighter at fifth level could do it since it requires 2 feats. You get crossbow expert which removes loading and gives you the bonus attack as well as removing range considerations. Then you get sharpshooter which lets you take a -5 to hit for +10 to damage. This would go to a net +1 before superiority dice with a +4 dex bonus. Still that is 64 base damage plus whatever you roll which averages to 78 in that round. I can't think of a creature you would throw at a typical 5th level party that would be much of a threat (if it was even alive) after that much damage thrown at it. Reasonably sustainable too if you are ok with more misses when you run out of superiority dice, and only lose 1 attack on subsequent rounds.
Edit: Whoops, sharpshooter is +10.
Maybe I am missing something but how do you get two attacks out of the action surge? You still only get one bonus action for the round if I am reading action surge correctly.
Nah you get a full additional action so a full 2 attacks with the attack action.
You get one more Action, which you use to make an Attack action, where you get to attack twice since you're at fifth level.
Action surge lets you take another attack action, which at level 5 is two attacks.
Origin ID: Discgolfer27
Untappd ID: Discgolfer1981
You can apply superiority dice to every attack in a turn, you can only add one superiority die to each attack
I'm considering having the 6th-level party go three on one against a duergar Warlord NPC who starts the battle Medium but increases to Large, and finally to Huge. I need to devise ways to help the PCs not be totally curb-stomped, such as by adding terrain that is to their favor (or maybe even having a rival duergar sabotage their enemy in some way). The duergar would have to take an action to increase size each time, so that at least would give them a little opportunity to deal damage while avoiding it themselves.
The party composition is a bard/cleric, sorcerer, and monk. I may decide that one or two allied martial NPCs also join their side in the battle for some reason.
In general you’re not going to have much of an issue not having a single monster kill your party. It’s super easy to mess with their action economy to make them less effective but more fun. Usually you’re going to have to upscale single enemies to make them effective.
An example. Have them pick up the fighter and throw them. Less damage than a normal attack but moves them far enough away it takes two rounds to get into melee. This is generally less powerful than just attacking because it only removes 1/4 of the action economy for the enemies for one round and downing an enemy is usually better but it puts the wizard between the fighter and the enemy which feels threatening. And it forces your players to consider the terrain.
Edit: a single druegar warlord is CR 6, if your party of three Players are level 6 this isn’t even a medium encounter for them.
yeah the maximum damage on that character (with archery, bless, and precision attack you have a fairly good hit chance with sharpshooter!)
5d6(avg 17.5)+15(16dex)+50(ss)= average 82.5 points of damage if all 5 hit (yeah, that's a big if, one of the advantages is that you don't have to waste a precision dice on a lost cause)
bonus: you can use a damaging maneuver on your high rolls for extra nova
this depends heavily on what you're fighting whether you'd even try this
HV: crossbow expert->level 4 ss-> level 6 + 2 dex
The thing is, it's so much damage, if you land 2 of your 3 hits, you're averaging 33 damage at level 5, 35 at level 6, add in +crossbow bolts and a magical crossbow and you can get into stupid land
it's so one note, however
It would be kind of interesting to play a character who could do something like that, and play them as this really brash "you call this a fight?" type personality that just sort of toys with their enemies for fun but the moment you actually hurt/threaten them they just drop a nuke.
The type of character where your victory condition is getting them to have to actually use their most powerful attack. To make them feel like they have to actually try
also not limited to great weapons
Oh, no, I don't mean the Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes one. I mean the CR 12 Warlord from Volo's Guide to Monsters with duergar racial abilities tacked on.
If they lose they won't be killed, but enslaved and have to find a way to escape. However, the duergar's new wife wants him to die and her in-laws to be disgraced so that she can lead a coup against her father-in-law, so she'll try to find a way to shift things in the party's favor.
I've already rolled for poisons, psionic effects, and even a succubus' draining kiss she could use to weaken him, but it's hard to make a duergar fail a save.
EDIT: I recall the 4E Dark Sun book having obstacles, traps, and exploitable terrain for arena battles. Maybe I can mine that for inspiration.
2d8(bow)+6(mod+1bow)+12d8(eldritch smite)+10d10(banishing smite)+10(sharpshooter)
Wanted to go back to this because its not "all they can cast" and the manner in which they cast it is important.
They get two runes at level 3, scaling up to 5 runes. This gives them 2-5 short rest abilities. They can get the ability to be resistant to bludgeoning/piercing/slashing damage for a minute 1-2 times per short rest... the rune also gives them permanent resistance to poison damage... Not "non-magical" but any. They can get the ability to restrain creatures (str save) on a hit, no action which also does 2d6 dmg/round on top of this while they're not saved. Again 1-2 times per short rest. The ability that gives them the reaction incapacitation ability also gives them 120 ft of darkvision. The same rune that gives you the ability to not be surprised also lets you use your reaction to grant any action within 60 feet advantage or disadvantage for a minute.
Most of these are absurd in and of themselves. Let alone getting all of them and more abilities on top of this!
Sure but they are sucking up your reaction/bonus action economy. For example the advantage ability requires your reaction to grant it to an ally, AND you have to decide which ally, which means you can't use your charm ability, or opportunity attacks, so that doesn't work well if you are trying to use sentinel too. You have to pick and choose when you want to fire them off. Bonus action stuff will interfere with second wind and polearm master stuff if you are trying to go with one of those builds. Finally they get the 2nd use of their runes at level 15, which is high level play and something we've all complained is unbalanced across the board, and a place most campaigns never get to. I'm not worried about that stuff.
Again, I'd still state that "absurb" is a hyperbolic statement.
Origin ID: Discgolfer27
Untappd ID: Discgolfer1981
Lvl 3 feature: You're good at everything with a short rest. This is just bad power creep design. Interesting roleplay kind of requires that there are things you're good at and things you're not good at. And while Rogues tend to be a bit better at more things and very good at a few things... this just negates that weakness and lets them be good at whatever they need to be for that situation.
Wails from the grave has effectively no limit because A) proficiency bonus times/day is a lot. And also because you can use your reaction to make another token to give you an extra use when any creature dies. Now ok there are a lot of things to use trinkets on. But they're not a terribly limited resource. You're going to get a lot of them over the course of an adventuring day.
Not every sub-class has these issues. The Soul Knife is actually reasonable except maybe for the 2x +1/sr proficiency hours of invisibility per day and Homing strikes only using a charge if it turns a miss into a hit is a bit... interesting... but the base psychic blades is actually a bit underpowered (two shortswords is 1d6 each rather than d6/d4) aside from not necessarily taking up your hands(which is not usually a huge issue)
Bolded. You are good at something, per short rest, and you are already going to be really good at the things that you are going to be using all the time anyways just by being a rogue, so I imagine this will be very situational. "oh we are going to be doing a lot of talking this session? I'll make sure I can do at least a persuasion check decently". I think this will really come in handy in being able to give players the help action. You can be a jack of all trades helper. Never better than anyone else, but always able to lend a hand.
Origin ID: Discgolfer27
Untappd ID: Discgolfer1981
Wails from the grave is 2 to 3 times per day until you get to trinkets and you don't get trinkets til 9th level and using the reaction to gain a trinket instead of holding on to your reaction so you can uncanny dodge is a calculated risk for rogues.