I can see why your DM wouldn't want to allow that. 100% chance to remove a creature from combat for the cost of one action, and not even using a spell slot.
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PiptheFairFrequently not in boats.Registered Userregular
edited December 2020
using a 6th level ability to instantly kill something/remove it from combat with no save is both wildly overpowered and against the design philosophy of and very clearly against the intent of that ability
it reads like something that is going to be FAQ'd
EDIT: like it's a clever reading of the ability, but come on
PiptheFair on
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WearingglassesOf the friendly neighborhood varietyRegistered Userregular
edited December 2020
They should errata it to allow a save, at least.
EDIT:
So how do you incorporate new class features/subclasses into your existing campaigns? Do you just let your players update their abilities like that, or are you only allowing it for new characters moving forward?
So how do you incorporate new class features/subclasses into your existing campaigns? Do you just let your players update their abilities like that, or are you only allowing it for new characters moving forward?
In my games, historically, it's been with a bit of a handwave - "Oh, yeah, of course; Bob's character could always do that *cough cough*" - and then no one ever really cares.
Like, when a new class comes out that more perfectly captures the essence of your character, I'll just let you rebuild it.
I can see why your DM wouldn't want to allow that. 100% chance to remove a creature from combat for the cost of one action, and not even using a spell slot.
It's once per day, costs a spell slot if you use it again (3rd level or higher), however it's not a 100% chance to remove a creature from combat as whatever item was animated could be slipped out of, damaged, dispelled, etc. I talked him into a compromise that we're both happy with
-A victim creature gets an immediate check to squirm free of the item as a reaction, athletics or acrobatics contested against the object's athletics. If it cannot, or it is impossible, it will be considered "Grappled" by the item
-A victim creature can grapple the item, and drag itself 15 feet back towards the ground each round until the object can escape the grapple (not supported by raw, works for us though)
-A victim creature can use any sort of teleportation to get free (supported by raw)
-Similar to previous homebrew rulings on Heat Metal "cook & book", since Heat Metal has no save against damage and plate takes 10 minutes to Doff, it is a death sentence - but we know logically that armor is not just literally one discrete object, and removing a single breastplate by say, destructively cutting the straps, is something allowed with an action if a slashing weapon is present. Doing so would cause a substantial AC reduction but, oh wells
-Creatures with Legendary Resistance can break free of the animated object by expending a legendary resistance, although we both agree this is unlikely to be necessary as the DM can just say "yeah the lich's robe is magical"
-If a piece of armor is animated, whatever AC value the DM decides is provided by that individual section of armor, if attacks miss as a result of that armor class, they hit the animated object instead and reduce its HP (EG: a knight with 18 ac has an attack roll 17 against him, the animated breastplate gets hit)
I mean he didn't want to do any sort of compromise at first but I said "fine I'll reroll as a ancestral guardian barbarian with sentinel if this ability would somehow break the game and is uniquely overpowered" and he relented... I mean he knows I wasn't serious but he saw my point
In my TOA game, where he was a player, there was one of these, and it trivialized about 50% of encounters for the party (clocking in with TWO incredibly powerful bullshit mechanics that have NO SAVE and trivialize even boss monsters with legendary resistances), in that circumstance I didn't want to compromise with the player and it just let to a bad time until I realized I was being dumb and we went over our concerns and found a happy medium (we settled on ancestral guardians being cancellable by expending a legendary resistance, and sentinel being ignorable if the creature accepts vulnerability to the attack's damage)
So you're arguing that you should get telekinesis but without a save, free once a day, castable as a third level spell after that, and also you're only level 6.
That's not something I would let fly, for what should be obvious reasons.
Is it that big of a deal? You're animating one non-magical item. And now that it's a creature, it doesn't just magically get to carry things around.
You now have an animated object. If you wanted to carry the bad guy away, it's now a grapple situation, and I would rule that a breastplate is equal to one size category down from the wearer. The bard has to use his bonus action to attack (start the grapple). Otherwise, now you have a hovering breastplate with tentacle straps to command.
If the breastplate successfully grappled, can move its grappled opponent half it's speed (15 feet).
I think it's fun, and within the rules. And using an ability at level 6 that's one per long rest to annoy, and "possibly" remove an opponent from the battle? Is it really that powerful? I would assume by level six, any major enemy you're fighting either isn't wearing armor, or the armor they're wearing is magical, making it immune to this tactic.
I'd give the monster a Str or Dex save to either break or wiggle lose from the armor (whichever is better) vs the caster's save DC; but I'd probably only do that after the first round or if the movement was gonna cause damage.
Like, if you wanna yeet a dude out of combat then yeah I'm gonna give him a save. If you just wanna drag him around and introduce him to all your friends? That sounds funny I'm gonna allow it.
Again, that's all covered in a grapple check. The ability turns an object into a creature. It now follows the rules for creatures in combat.
And I'll also add in these situations, it's helpful for both the player and DM to consider the role reversal. If an NPC was using this on their character, what seems fair. Does a PC feel like their character can get removed from combat with no chance to react?
Probably not. Same holds true for a PC using this against an NPC.
This power only seems really powerful if you ignore the rules.
They just forgot to put in the usual "are not being worn or carried" clause that Animate Objects and other similar spells have, which avoids all of these thorny questions.
The "not held or used" rule is included in the description of the Shatter spell, so its exclusion here suggests that the Bard can use it on held or worn objects - along with the above caveats regarding grapple checks etc.
I think the idea of someone feeling like they got the drop on the bard, then the bard wiggling his fingers and making their sword dance out of their hand and start whacking them is very much intended here. Or set of keys walking away from a jailer's belt. Or as we have here, someone "dancing" with their own armor.
Also if a player just, like, dropped that on me out of nowhere mid session on a non-boss I'd probably be like "yeah okay fuck that guy in particular then" just because that's kinda terrifying and hilarious all at once
In my TOA game, where he was a player, there was one of these, and it trivialized about 50% of encounters for the party (clocking in with TWO incredibly powerful bullshit mechanics that have NO SAVE and trivialize even boss monsters with legendary resistances)
I also have to ask here. I'm assuming it's the polearm master + sentinel trick, plus the guardians giving disadvantage + resistance to attacks against anything else. So it could essentially lock down one monster if it tried to get with 10 feet?
So to that end, 50% of your encounters, including boss monsters were against a single enemy that couldn't do a single thing if it wasn't right next to something?
That seems really odd, unless I'm missing something.
Any GM who wanted to avoid that trick would just use monsters and nude magic users from then on
Or, if the Bard was using the trick a lot, make it part of the mythos surrounding the group, so that organisations got wind of the party who possess your armour and start investing in breakaway plate mail
Like how in MGS5 if you keep sniping bad guys they start all wearing helmets
So my campaign is set in the Underdark in a world where dragonborn are rare, and so far I've had two or three NPCs mistake him for a giant kobold.
I've decided that, in fairness, the extremely paranoid deep gnomes they're dealing with think the party dwarf and shadar-kai are duergar and drow, respectively.
In my TOA game, where he was a player, there was one of these, and it trivialized about 50% of encounters for the party (clocking in with TWO incredibly powerful bullshit mechanics that have NO SAVE and trivialize even boss monsters with legendary resistances)
I also have to ask here. I'm assuming it's the polearm master + sentinel trick, plus the guardians giving disadvantage + resistance to attacks against anything else. So it could essentially lock down one monster if it tried to get with 10 feet?
So to that end, 50% of your encounters, including boss monsters were against a single enemy that couldn't do a single thing if it wasn't right next to something?
That seems really odd, unless I'm missing something.
And couldn't Disengage to close the range, either.
So you're arguing that you should get telekinesis but without a save, free once a day, castable as a third level spell after that, and also you're only level 6.
That's not something I would let fly, for what should be obvious reasons.
Nah it's a grapple check
I think there's some knee-jerky reactions here, after talking me and my DM both agreed that since it's a creature, grapple rules apply if it wants to move the other creature, and that takes care of it. There are exceptions, like a piece of armor they can't get off, but they could either grapple the animated object or lose the item
I think this is intended behavior given that we already have grapple rules (necessary for it to actually move another creature)
I can also animate a small boat or a carriage at level 6 and fly 2 people around non concentration for an hour, it's supposed to be a really really good ability (In reality, I'm probably going to mostly use it to animate my own gloves, since I have sharpshooter, and give me advantage on my attack roll with my bonus action)
In my TOA game, where he was a player, there was one of these, and it trivialized about 50% of encounters for the party (clocking in with TWO incredibly powerful bullshit mechanics that have NO SAVE and trivialize even boss monsters with legendary resistances)
I also have to ask here. I'm assuming it's the polearm master + sentinel trick, plus the guardians giving disadvantage + resistance to attacks against anything else. So it could essentially lock down one monster if it tried to get with 10 feet?
So to that end, 50% of your encounters, including boss monsters were against a single enemy that couldn't do a single thing if it wasn't right next to something?
That seems really odd, unless I'm missing something.
the barbarian rolled well on stats so needed no ASIs and just took feats, at level 12 had pam sentinel and alert, the most important enemy in each encounter would immediately be unable to do damage to the party
there's no save for it or anything, the party just takes half damage, combined with the paladin auras... I mean I created a lot of clever encounters, or used more enemies and simply deemphazied fights like them running into one t-rex at level 6 - but I didn't want to have to rebalance every encounter in the module to make things somewhat challenging for the party, that's exhausting, hence the compromise (the barb was initially hesitant but the first critical sentinel strike + vulnerability was very well received)
It's not that they can't do "anything", but a barbarian with a dedicated healer is insanely difficult to kill, and that's the only target that really can be killed
there are a lot of encounters that were intended to be difficult that were not created with this ability in mind
In my TOA game, where he was a player, there was one of these, and it trivialized about 50% of encounters for the party (clocking in with TWO incredibly powerful bullshit mechanics that have NO SAVE and trivialize even boss monsters with legendary resistances)
I also have to ask here. I'm assuming it's the polearm master + sentinel trick, plus the guardians giving disadvantage + resistance to attacks against anything else. So it could essentially lock down one monster if it tried to get with 10 feet?
So to that end, 50% of your encounters, including boss monsters were against a single enemy that couldn't do a single thing if it wasn't right next to something?
That seems really odd, unless I'm missing something.
the barbarian rolled well on stats so needed no ASIs and just took feats, at level 12 had pam sentinel and alert, the most important enemy in each encounter would immediately be unable to do damage to the party
So the most important enemy in every single encounter had absolutely no way to deal with a threat unless they were within 5 feet of the target? In encounters built for level 12 characters?
That's the part I don't understand.
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PiptheFairFrequently not in boats.Registered Userregular
In my TOA game, where he was a player, there was one of these, and it trivialized about 50% of encounters for the party (clocking in with TWO incredibly powerful bullshit mechanics that have NO SAVE and trivialize even boss monsters with legendary resistances)
I also have to ask here. I'm assuming it's the polearm master + sentinel trick, plus the guardians giving disadvantage + resistance to attacks against anything else. So it could essentially lock down one monster if it tried to get with 10 feet?
So to that end, 50% of your encounters, including boss monsters were against a single enemy that couldn't do a single thing if it wasn't right next to something?
That seems really odd, unless I'm missing something.
the barbarian rolled well on stats so needed no ASIs and just took feats, at level 12 had pam sentinel and alert, the most important enemy in each encounter would immediately be unable to do damage to the party
So the most important enemy in every single encounter had absolutely no way to deal with a threat unless they were within 5 feet of the target? In encounters built for level 12 characters?
In my TOA game, where he was a player, there was one of these, and it trivialized about 50% of encounters for the party (clocking in with TWO incredibly powerful bullshit mechanics that have NO SAVE and trivialize even boss monsters with legendary resistances)
I also have to ask here. I'm assuming it's the polearm master + sentinel trick, plus the guardians giving disadvantage + resistance to attacks against anything else. So it could essentially lock down one monster if it tried to get with 10 feet?
So to that end, 50% of your encounters, including boss monsters were against a single enemy that couldn't do a single thing if it wasn't right next to something?
That seems really odd, unless I'm missing something.
the barbarian rolled well on stats so needed no ASIs and just took feats, at level 12 had pam sentinel and alert, the most important enemy in each encounter would immediately be unable to do damage to the party
So the most important enemy in every single encounter had absolutely no way to deal with a threat unless they were within 5 feet of the target? In encounters built for level 12 characters?
That's the part I don't understand.
also, AoOs only occur when something leaves your reach in 5e, so that creature can just waltz up to the barbarian and start doing things to them
or whatever it next to the barbarian
Polearm Master lets you make opportunity attacks when something enters your (likely 10 foot) reach so long as you're wielding a polearm. The trade off being that creatures already within your reach can move around more freely since it's 10 feet instead of 5.
Hexmage-PA on
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PiptheFairFrequently not in boats.Registered Userregular
In my TOA game, where he was a player, there was one of these, and it trivialized about 50% of encounters for the party (clocking in with TWO incredibly powerful bullshit mechanics that have NO SAVE and trivialize even boss monsters with legendary resistances)
I also have to ask here. I'm assuming it's the polearm master + sentinel trick, plus the guardians giving disadvantage + resistance to attacks against anything else. So it could essentially lock down one monster if it tried to get with 10 feet?
So to that end, 50% of your encounters, including boss monsters were against a single enemy that couldn't do a single thing if it wasn't right next to something?
That seems really odd, unless I'm missing something.
the barbarian rolled well on stats so needed no ASIs and just took feats, at level 12 had pam sentinel and alert, the most important enemy in each encounter would immediately be unable to do damage to the party
So the most important enemy in every single encounter had absolutely no way to deal with a threat unless they were within 5 feet of the target? In encounters built for level 12 characters?
That's the part I don't understand.
also, AoOs only occur when something leaves your reach in 5e, so that creature can just waltz up to the barbarian and start doing things to them
or whatever it next to the barbarian
Polearm Master lets you make opportunity attacks when something enters your (likely 10 foot) reach so long as you're wielding a polearm. The trade off being that creatures already within your reach can move around more freely since it's 10 feet instead of 5.
yeah I just noticed, so I edited my post
that being said, dear god do not allow rolled stats
In my TOA game, where he was a player, there was one of these, and it trivialized about 50% of encounters for the party (clocking in with TWO incredibly powerful bullshit mechanics that have NO SAVE and trivialize even boss monsters with legendary resistances)
I also have to ask here. I'm assuming it's the polearm master + sentinel trick, plus the guardians giving disadvantage + resistance to attacks against anything else. So it could essentially lock down one monster if it tried to get with 10 feet?
So to that end, 50% of your encounters, including boss monsters were against a single enemy that couldn't do a single thing if it wasn't right next to something?
That seems really odd, unless I'm missing something.
the barbarian rolled well on stats so needed no ASIs and just took feats, at level 12 had pam sentinel and alert, the most important enemy in each encounter would immediately be unable to do damage to the party
So the most important enemy in every single encounter had absolutely no way to deal with a threat unless they were within 5 feet of the target? In encounters built for level 12 characters?
That's the part I don't understand.
also, AoOs only occur when something leaves your reach in 5e, so that creature can just waltz up to the barbarian and start doing things to them
or whatever it next to the barbarian
Polearm Master lets you make opportunity attacks when something enters your (likely 10 foot) reach so long as you're wielding a polearm. The trade off being that creatures already within your reach can move around more freely since it's 10 feet instead of 5.
yeah I just noticed, so I edited my post
that being said, dear god do not allow rolled stats
It took me along time to come to that conclusion, but yeah. My campaigns are all point buy from now on.
The barbarian in my ToA campaign and the barbarian player in the CoS campaigns we're playing now had rolled stats and had bonkers AC's in their 20's by mid levels. I'm playing a barbarian in our next, Frostmaiden, campaign with point buy and I can't break an AC of 15.
There are tons of other reasons, but that one right there, is why I've stopped using rolled stats and am slowly converting my other DMs in our group to go along.
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PiptheFairFrequently not in boats.Registered Userregular
like, rolled stats are 'fine' in systems like 3.5 where you're stacking so many modifiers that another one or two points don't really matter muuch
but in 5e? you get a barbarian with 3 feats at lvl12
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webguy20I spend too much time on the InternetRegistered Userregular
We do rolled stats because most of the table loves them, but ALSO we as a group don't build completely wonky builds that take advantage of super good stats.
In my TOA game, where he was a player, there was one of these, and it trivialized about 50% of encounters for the party (clocking in with TWO incredibly powerful bullshit mechanics that have NO SAVE and trivialize even boss monsters with legendary resistances)
I also have to ask here. I'm assuming it's the polearm master + sentinel trick, plus the guardians giving disadvantage + resistance to attacks against anything else. So it could essentially lock down one monster if it tried to get with 10 feet?
So to that end, 50% of your encounters, including boss monsters were against a single enemy that couldn't do a single thing if it wasn't right next to something?
That seems really odd, unless I'm missing something.
the barbarian rolled well on stats so needed no ASIs and just took feats, at level 12 had pam sentinel and alert, the most important enemy in each encounter would immediately be unable to do damage to the party
So the most important enemy in every single encounter had absolutely no way to deal with a threat unless they were within 5 feet of the target? In encounters built for level 12 characters?
That's the part I don't understand.
I mean it should be obvious, but if say, the party is fighting a Lich and the barbarian throws a rock at the lich, the lich's spells now do half damage to the entire party, except the barbarian, who is a barbarian
If the party is fighting a dragon, the barbarian just needs to poke the dragon and it's effectively removed from the fight as a threat - it can't get away, it gets sentinel'd, so now its breath is restricted AND even if it does breath, it does half damage (and a quarter to probably half the party from saves, a whopping 1/8 damage if they have resistance to the elemental type as well)
with bardic inspiration the miss chance was really low
it ended up being perfectly satisfactory for the barbarian to sentinel a dragon and both take away one legendary resistance AND deal double damage to it, instead of making it do half damage to all creatures and lose the ability to move
Barb had sentinel at level 4 and just sentinel + the class ability where "you touch enemy and their abilities barely work on anyone else" - yeah that effectively gimps any boss in the book. 5e's boss fights are already so easy a competent party can sleep through them, so such incredible powerful no-save mechanics make returning them even more of a chore. The party would riot if I threw an enemy at them that threw a javelin at the wizard and now his fireballs do half damage with no counterplay or save, and what happened when they do that to the DM is that printed combat encounters just become trivial
so the compromise was made because it was burning me out as a DM to have to engineer everything around one player's kit, out of 7 players, unless they wanted to faceroll every encounter (they did not)
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PiptheFairFrequently not in boats.Registered Userregular
dragon breath isn't an attack and neither are many spells, so guardian doesn't work on it
Starting when you choose this path at 3rd level, spectral warriors appear when you enter your rage. While you're raging, the first creature you hit with an attack on your turn becomes the target of the warriors, which hinder its attacks. Until the start of your next turn, that target has disadvantage on any attack roll that isn't against you, and when the target hits a creature other than you with an attack, that creature has resistance to the damage dealt by the attack. The effect on the target ends early if your rage ends.
Lightning Breath (Recharge 5–6).
The dragon exhales lightning in a 90-foot line that is 5 feet wide. Each creature in that line must make a DC 19 Dexterity saving throw, taking 66 (12d10) lightning damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.
dragon breath isn't an attack and neither are many spells, so guardian doesn't work on it
Starting when you choose this path at 3rd level, spectral warriors appear when you enter your rage. While you're raging, the first creature you hit with an attack on your turn becomes the target of the warriors, which hinder its attacks. Until the start of your next turn, that target has disadvantage on any attack roll that isn't against you, and when the target hits a creature other than you with an attack, that creature has resistance to the damage dealt by the attack. The effect on the target ends early if your rage ends.
Lightning Breath (Recharge 5–6).
The dragon exhales lightning in a 90-foot line that is 5 feet wide. Each creature in that line must make a DC 19 Dexterity saving throw, taking 66 (12d10) lightning damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.
no attack roll, and not labelled as an attack
also, resistances don't stack
I'm looking at her digital character sheet and it... does not say that...
fucking hell did she just fucking lie about what her character could do and count on me not pulling out xanathars but just relying on her (DIGITALLY CREATED SO IT SHOULD BE WORD FOR WORD) character sheet
okay I am getting mad now because the character sheet say "and when the target deals damage to a creature other than you, that damage is reduced by half."
Edit: I didn't actually watch her roll stats either, she sent me a screenshot from an online dice roller...which until just now ... fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff
>:(
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PiptheFairFrequently not in boats.Registered Userregular
dragon breath isn't an attack and neither are many spells, so guardian doesn't work on it
Starting when you choose this path at 3rd level, spectral warriors appear when you enter your rage. While you're raging, the first creature you hit with an attack on your turn becomes the target of the warriors, which hinder its attacks. Until the start of your next turn, that target has disadvantage on any attack roll that isn't against you, and when the target hits a creature other than you with an attack, that creature has resistance to the damage dealt by the attack. The effect on the target ends early if your rage ends.
Lightning Breath (Recharge 5–6).
The dragon exhales lightning in a 90-foot line that is 5 feet wide. Each creature in that line must make a DC 19 Dexterity saving throw, taking 66 (12d10) lightning damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.
no attack roll, and not labelled as an attack
also, resistances don't stack
I'm looking at her digital character sheet and it... does not say that...
fucking hell did she just fucking lie about what her character could do and count on me not pulling out xanathars but just relying on her (DIGITALLY CREATED SO IT SHOULD BE WORD FOR WORD) character sheet
okay I am getting mad now because the character sheet say "and when the target deals damage to a creature other than you, that damage is reduced by half."
I dunno if it was errata'd, but current text says an attack
Ancestral Protectors only effect attacks and attack rolls. That dragon's breath weapon would be unaffected, any of that lich's spells that relay on saving throws would be unaffected. Also, for any attack rolls against the not-barbarian they are considered to have resistance - should they already have resistance it doesn't stack. You were running that feature in a more powerful manner than intended.
Also, for my own games I usually give my bosses some sort of legendary action that allows movement without drawing OAs.
yeah I see that on D&D beyond, so either her PDF (generated, ostensibly, from D&Dbeyond) character sheet was edited to cheat, or it was errata'd
she's not playing in any game I run anymore but I'm fuckin boiling over here and now that I'm a much more experienced DM I am turning my head so far sideways at 2 natural 17s on her stat rolls that it's about to twist all the way off
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PiptheFairFrequently not in boats.Registered Userregular
2 nat 17s on stats is not unusual honestly, which is one of the big problems with rolling stats
but yeah, always have players roll everything in front of you
dragon breath isn't an attack and neither are many spells, so guardian doesn't work on it
Starting when you choose this path at 3rd level, spectral warriors appear when you enter your rage. While you're raging, the first creature you hit with an attack on your turn becomes the target of the warriors, which hinder its attacks. Until the start of your next turn, that target has disadvantage on any attack roll that isn't against you, and when the target hits a creature other than you with an attack, that creature has resistance to the damage dealt by the attack. The effect on the target ends early if your rage ends.
Lightning Breath (Recharge 5–6).
The dragon exhales lightning in a 90-foot line that is 5 feet wide. Each creature in that line must make a DC 19 Dexterity saving throw, taking 66 (12d10) lightning damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.
no attack roll, and not labelled as an attack
also, resistances don't stack
I'm looking at her digital character sheet and it... does not say that...
fucking hell did she just fucking lie about what her character could do and count on me not pulling out xanathars but just relying on her (DIGITALLY CREATED SO IT SHOULD BE WORD FOR WORD) character sheet
okay I am getting mad now because the character sheet say "and when the target deals damage to a creature other than you, that damage is reduced by half."
I dunno if it was errata'd, but current text says an attack
Yeah, the wording is the same in my physical Xanathar's, which is first printing.
Posts
it reads like something that is going to be FAQ'd
EDIT: like it's a clever reading of the ability, but come on
EDIT:
So how do you incorporate new class features/subclasses into your existing campaigns? Do you just let your players update their abilities like that, or are you only allowing it for new characters moving forward?
In my games, historically, it's been with a bit of a handwave - "Oh, yeah, of course; Bob's character could always do that *cough cough*" - and then no one ever really cares.
Like, when a new class comes out that more perfectly captures the essence of your character, I'll just let you rebuild it.
Steam: Elvenshae // PSN: Elvenshae // WotC: Elvenshae
Wilds of Aladrion: [https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/comment/43159014/#Comment_43159014]Ellandryn[/url]
It's once per day, costs a spell slot if you use it again (3rd level or higher), however it's not a 100% chance to remove a creature from combat as whatever item was animated could be slipped out of, damaged, dispelled, etc. I talked him into a compromise that we're both happy with
-A victim creature gets an immediate check to squirm free of the item as a reaction, athletics or acrobatics contested against the object's athletics. If it cannot, or it is impossible, it will be considered "Grappled" by the item
-A victim creature can grapple the item, and drag itself 15 feet back towards the ground each round until the object can escape the grapple (not supported by raw, works for us though)
-A victim creature can use any sort of teleportation to get free (supported by raw)
-Similar to previous homebrew rulings on Heat Metal "cook & book", since Heat Metal has no save against damage and plate takes 10 minutes to Doff, it is a death sentence - but we know logically that armor is not just literally one discrete object, and removing a single breastplate by say, destructively cutting the straps, is something allowed with an action if a slashing weapon is present. Doing so would cause a substantial AC reduction but, oh wells
-Creatures with Legendary Resistance can break free of the animated object by expending a legendary resistance, although we both agree this is unlikely to be necessary as the DM can just say "yeah the lich's robe is magical"
-If a piece of armor is animated, whatever AC value the DM decides is provided by that individual section of armor, if attacks miss as a result of that armor class, they hit the animated object instead and reduce its HP (EG: a knight with 18 ac has an attack roll 17 against him, the animated breastplate gets hit)
I mean he didn't want to do any sort of compromise at first but I said "fine I'll reroll as a ancestral guardian barbarian with sentinel if this ability would somehow break the game and is uniquely overpowered" and he relented... I mean he knows I wasn't serious but he saw my point
In my TOA game, where he was a player, there was one of these, and it trivialized about 50% of encounters for the party (clocking in with TWO incredibly powerful bullshit mechanics that have NO SAVE and trivialize even boss monsters with legendary resistances), in that circumstance I didn't want to compromise with the player and it just let to a bad time until I realized I was being dumb and we went over our concerns and found a happy medium (we settled on ancestral guardians being cancellable by expending a legendary resistance, and sentinel being ignorable if the creature accepts vulnerability to the attack's damage)
That's not something I would let fly, for what should be obvious reasons.
You now have an animated object. If you wanted to carry the bad guy away, it's now a grapple situation, and I would rule that a breastplate is equal to one size category down from the wearer. The bard has to use his bonus action to attack (start the grapple). Otherwise, now you have a hovering breastplate with tentacle straps to command.
If the breastplate successfully grappled, can move its grappled opponent half it's speed (15 feet).
I think it's fun, and within the rules. And using an ability at level 6 that's one per long rest to annoy, and "possibly" remove an opponent from the battle? Is it really that powerful? I would assume by level six, any major enemy you're fighting either isn't wearing armor, or the armor they're wearing is magical, making it immune to this tactic.
C'mon DM, let your bard have a little fun.
Like, if you wanna yeet a dude out of combat then yeah I'm gonna give him a save. If you just wanna drag him around and introduce him to all your friends? That sounds funny I'm gonna allow it.
And I'll also add in these situations, it's helpful for both the player and DM to consider the role reversal. If an NPC was using this on their character, what seems fair. Does a PC feel like their character can get removed from combat with no chance to react?
Probably not. Same holds true for a PC using this against an NPC.
This power only seems really powerful if you ignore the rules.
Iconic Natural language!
I think the idea of someone feeling like they got the drop on the bard, then the bard wiggling his fingers and making their sword dance out of their hand and start whacking them is very much intended here. Or set of keys walking away from a jailer's belt. Or as we have here, someone "dancing" with their own armor.
I also have to ask here. I'm assuming it's the polearm master + sentinel trick, plus the guardians giving disadvantage + resistance to attacks against anything else. So it could essentially lock down one monster if it tried to get with 10 feet?
So to that end, 50% of your encounters, including boss monsters were against a single enemy that couldn't do a single thing if it wasn't right next to something?
That seems really odd, unless I'm missing something.
Or, if the Bard was using the trick a lot, make it part of the mythos surrounding the group, so that organisations got wind of the party who possess your armour and start investing in breakaway plate mail
Like how in MGS5 if you keep sniping bad guys they start all wearing helmets
I've decided that, in fairness, the extremely paranoid deep gnomes they're dealing with think the party dwarf and shadar-kai are duergar and drow, respectively.
And couldn't Disengage to close the range, either.
Nah it's a grapple check
I think there's some knee-jerky reactions here, after talking me and my DM both agreed that since it's a creature, grapple rules apply if it wants to move the other creature, and that takes care of it. There are exceptions, like a piece of armor they can't get off, but they could either grapple the animated object or lose the item
I think this is intended behavior given that we already have grapple rules (necessary for it to actually move another creature)
I can also animate a small boat or a carriage at level 6 and fly 2 people around non concentration for an hour, it's supposed to be a really really good ability (In reality, I'm probably going to mostly use it to animate my own gloves, since I have sharpshooter, and give me advantage on my attack roll with my bonus action)
the barbarian rolled well on stats so needed no ASIs and just took feats, at level 12 had pam sentinel and alert, the most important enemy in each encounter would immediately be unable to do damage to the party
there's no save for it or anything, the party just takes half damage, combined with the paladin auras... I mean I created a lot of clever encounters, or used more enemies and simply deemphazied fights like them running into one t-rex at level 6 - but I didn't want to have to rebalance every encounter in the module to make things somewhat challenging for the party, that's exhausting, hence the compromise (the barb was initially hesitant but the first critical sentinel strike + vulnerability was very well received)
It's not that they can't do "anything", but a barbarian with a dedicated healer is insanely difficult to kill, and that's the only target that really can be killed
there are a lot of encounters that were intended to be difficult that were not created with this ability in mind
So the most important enemy in every single encounter had absolutely no way to deal with a threat unless they were within 5 feet of the target? In encounters built for level 12 characters?
That's the part I don't understand.
Polearm Master lets you make opportunity attacks when something enters your (likely 10 foot) reach so long as you're wielding a polearm. The trade off being that creatures already within your reach can move around more freely since it's 10 feet instead of 5.
yeah I just noticed, so I edited my post
that being said, dear god do not allow rolled stats
It took me along time to come to that conclusion, but yeah. My campaigns are all point buy from now on.
The barbarian in my ToA campaign and the barbarian player in the CoS campaigns we're playing now had rolled stats and had bonkers AC's in their 20's by mid levels. I'm playing a barbarian in our next, Frostmaiden, campaign with point buy and I can't break an AC of 15.
There are tons of other reasons, but that one right there, is why I've stopped using rolled stats and am slowly converting my other DMs in our group to go along.
but in 5e? you get a barbarian with 3 feats at lvl12
Origin ID: Discgolfer27
Untappd ID: Discgolfer1981
These two in particular:
Beauregard
Monk 13
STR 10, DEX 16, CON 16, INT 19, WIS 18, CHA 12
Jester
Cleric 13
STR 16, DEX 18, CON 16, INT 12, WIS 20, CHA 12
Source
They roll stats as per the rules, and from what I remember, Matt allows a reroll if your total points are under the standard array.
I mean it should be obvious, but if say, the party is fighting a Lich and the barbarian throws a rock at the lich, the lich's spells now do half damage to the entire party, except the barbarian, who is a barbarian
If the party is fighting a dragon, the barbarian just needs to poke the dragon and it's effectively removed from the fight as a threat - it can't get away, it gets sentinel'd, so now its breath is restricted AND even if it does breath, it does half damage (and a quarter to probably half the party from saves, a whopping 1/8 damage if they have resistance to the elemental type as well)
with bardic inspiration the miss chance was really low
it ended up being perfectly satisfactory for the barbarian to sentinel a dragon and both take away one legendary resistance AND deal double damage to it, instead of making it do half damage to all creatures and lose the ability to move
Barb had sentinel at level 4 and just sentinel + the class ability where "you touch enemy and their abilities barely work on anyone else" - yeah that effectively gimps any boss in the book. 5e's boss fights are already so easy a competent party can sleep through them, so such incredible powerful no-save mechanics make returning them even more of a chore. The party would riot if I threw an enemy at them that threw a javelin at the wizard and now his fireballs do half damage with no counterplay or save, and what happened when they do that to the DM is that printed combat encounters just become trivial
so the compromise was made because it was burning me out as a DM to have to engineer everything around one player's kit, out of 7 players, unless they wanted to faceroll every encounter (they did not)
no attack roll, and not labelled as an attack
also, resistances don't stack
I'm looking at her digital character sheet and it... does not say that...
fucking hell did she just fucking lie about what her character could do and count on me not pulling out xanathars but just relying on her (DIGITALLY CREATED SO IT SHOULD BE WORD FOR WORD) character sheet
okay I am getting mad now because the character sheet say "and when the target deals damage to a creature other than you, that damage is reduced by half."
Edit: I didn't actually watch her roll stats either, she sent me a screenshot from an online dice roller...which until just now ... fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff
>:(
I dunno if it was errata'd, but current text says an attack
Ancestral Protectors only effect attacks and attack rolls. That dragon's breath weapon would be unaffected, any of that lich's spells that relay on saving throws would be unaffected. Also, for any attack rolls against the not-barbarian they are considered to have resistance - should they already have resistance it doesn't stack. You were running that feature in a more powerful manner than intended.
Also, for my own games I usually give my bosses some sort of legendary action that allows movement without drawing OAs.
she's not playing in any game I run anymore but I'm fuckin boiling over here and now that I'm a much more experienced DM I am turning my head so far sideways at 2 natural 17s on her stat rolls that it's about to twist all the way off
but yeah, always have players roll everything in front of you
Yeah, the wording is the same in my physical Xanathar's, which is first printing.