The General [Coronavirus] Discussion Thread is WAY worse than the flu

ceresceres When the last moon is cast over the last star of morningAnd the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderator mod
ceres wrote: »
This thread is like the other discussion threads, but without the "Democrats are awesome/evil" which is extremely tiring, and enough about covid is extremely tiring.

This thread is different from the updates thread. The updates thread is for posting updates (new news) so that people who just want new information (or clarification of it) don't need to dig through posts about your uncle to get to it; this one is for discussing how we are affected as individuals, and families, and communities. Feel free to cross-post from there to continue discussions.

Oh yeah, and if you are throwing a bunch of numbers out there, or info not everyone might have, cite your sources. It helps keep confusion/misinformation to a minimum and people will like you slightly more.

And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
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  • lonelyahavalonelyahava Call me Ahava Move to New ZealandRegistered User regular
    The director general of health recommended yesterday that all households begin keeping face masks in the standard emergency bag that we're all meant to have.

    So the home crafted face mask industry is coming back again down here. There's plenty of hand sanitizer around for the moment, but no big boxes of masks like there were last week.

    I knew I should have bought one last week.

    The message coming through to is getting the government of NZ is "a second wave is a When not an If". So they're working on trying to get the country prepared for the inevitable.

    Suggesting face masks, pumping up our contact tracing app with other options, and focusing on testing.

    I'm trying to not be complacent, I'm trying to remain vigilant. But I think that when we do see the second wave, it will be less disruptive, or at least as disruptive, as the first.

    Thankfully, we have the evidence of the rest of the world to kind of jump us back into guard, so to speak.

    Tef
  • ShadowfireShadowfire Vermont, in the middle of nowhereRegistered User regular
    I am so very jealous of you for having both a competent government, and neighbors who care about keeping this virus in check.

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  • silence1186silence1186 Character shields down! As a wingmanRegistered User regular
    If New Zealand expects a second wave, with its excellent Covid response, what hope do the rest of us have?

    V wrote:
    Words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth.

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  • ceresceres When the last moon is cast over the last star of morning And the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderator mod
    I'm not sure how the school year will look for CCSD at this point. I read about their progress with setting up distance learning today. There are so many unanswered questions still, including how students will access technology and lessons in places with poor internet coverage, and how teachers will do so. There are teachers without laptops and good equipment/internet, and and the county says that if they're having trouble with access they can go to the schools and stream/record lessons from their classrooms, where the basics of what they'll need (PC, camera, mic, internet, etc.) will be set up already. With no students they can more or less safely sit in those rooms if they really need to, assuming the ones with no experience with the equipment can figure out what do with it. I think there is meant to be training on how to use what they'll need.

    The district is woefully underfunded and essentially forgoing a good bit of funding this year by not opening in person. They only have so many chromebooks and they're giving students priority, but that still leaves a lot of students without, and those who get may not have internet to get the materials or stream the classes, or childcare to stay home with at all to help them use it. Or reasonable data caps. And that's before you even get to the kids who won't be allowed to have school that way by parents for whom it's all or nothing and won't be bothered with online stuff, or have households with two or more siblings, or households that are just generally loud or unsafe. Or the kids whose parents will thank the school for the chromebooks and then take them for themselves or sell them because food is more important than school. It's... a lot, and they only have a couple weeks to figure it all out with no money.

    I'm looking into online learning options because even though I have no idea how I would homeschool again, a structured online solution that has experience with being what it is might work out a lot better than "regular school throws shit at nearest wall in case something happens" like we got at the end of last school year.

    And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
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  • MorganVMorganV Registered User regular
    If New Zealand expects a second wave, with its excellent Covid response, what hope do the rest of us have?

    There's differences between waves. I don’t think anyone really expected that they'd remain untouched indefinitely.

    What their response allows them to do, is have much more success at containment. Contact tracing of manageable numbers, district (rather than national) lockdowns, but otherwise less intrusive restrictions, and maybe even keep some areas of their society (schools, maybe sports sans crowds) operational.

    It's the embers argument. You can only stamp out embers if you've got the fire down to some hot coals. Which is NZ.

    Australia and most of Europe has it at a hearth fire and working to tamp it down. I'm currently stuck in Victoria AU, in the midst of a second (6 weeks at least) lockdown. But it's what is necessary to get it back under control.

    The US is a conflagration, with the President and several Governors trying to put it out with gasoline. So... good luck there.

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  • lonelyahavalonelyahava Call me Ahava Move to New ZealandRegistered User regular
    If New Zealand expects a second wave, with its excellent Covid response, what hope do the rest of us have?

    We'd be foolish not to. There's no vaccine yet, the rest of the world is still on fire, and our border security is only so good.

    We've had ten people escape from managed isolation. They were in public for anything from 30 minutes to almost three hours.

    We had one person break into an isolation area, but they were only there for fifteen minutes at midi and didn't interact with anybody.

    It only takes one of those cases to cause infection. Luckily, they're have been none. Even the guy that later tested positive after going to a food store in central city Auckland.

    We've been very lucky in that regard.

    But it takes just one, and since we are rightfully not going to just lock people up in prisons as isolation methods, they're is always the chance of that one getting out and into the community.

    We would be foolish to not expect another wave.

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  • daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    I swear they should threaten to have anyone who breaks isolation to spend the remainder of their quarantine on Whakaari. There's cats that have better self-control than some of these people when it comes to where they can and cannot go.

    Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
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  • ToxTox I kill threads Punch DimensionRegistered User regular
    If New Zealand expects a second wave, with its excellent Covid response, what hope do the rest of us have?

    Expecting the worst is, like, a key ingredient in how NZ has fared as well as it has, I'm sure.

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  • SteevLSteevL What can I do for you? Registered User regular
    I am pretty sure I saw my first Trump mask at my library this week. Library patrons are limited to 30 minutes inside the building and masks are required. This guy is a semi-regular and until the other day he was always wearing a bandanna face covering. Yesterday I saw him as he was leaving, and while I didn't get a perfect view of his mask, I saw the letters "MP" on the right side using the same font the Trump campaign uses.

    I also overheard one patron ask my supervisor if the employees all had to wear masks inside all the time, and when she said yes, he started going on about how that's bad for you to do that for so long, you're breathing in your own carbon dioxide, then he slid into anti-vaccination speak. I overheard the words "forced vaccinations" and "Bill Gates" and quickly found something to do in another part of the library because I didn't want to hear anything else from him.

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  • SniperGuySniperGuy Also known as Dohaeris Registered User regular
    So, just to confirm for my own sanity, just being outside doesn't mean you can forgo the whole mask and six feet thing, right? I keep seeing big gatherings of people outside without masks and sitting at picnic tables next to each other and it makes me shudder.

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  • DocshiftyDocshifty Registered User regular
    Outside, masks, and distance are all different steps to take in the goal of keeping yourself safe.

    A lot of people treat them like different options, which is a big problem.

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  • MorganVMorganV Registered User regular
    SniperGuy wrote: »
    So, just to confirm for my own sanity, just being outside doesn't mean you can forgo the whole mask and six feet thing, right? I keep seeing big gatherings of people outside without masks and sitting at picnic tables next to each other and it makes me shudder.

    You are correct.

    Should be 6' and masks regardless, if you can do so.

    That's part of the problem with the shitty coverage. People thinking that because one aspect (in this case, being inside) is more dangerous, you can ignore other shit.

    Optimally, it should be 6'+, masks, sanitized, outside, for short durations for most (but STILL not completely) safe. Each thing missed increases the chances of contagion.

    It's like the old joke about a supersized fast food meal. Making the soda a diet, doesn't make it a healthy meal. Just makes it a little less unhealthy. Is still garbage.

    That's what any in-person interaction now is, a garbage fast food meal. Should be minimized where possible, and the least crappy options taken.

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  • NobeardNobeard North Carolina: Failed StateRegistered User regular
    SniperGuy wrote: »
    So, just to confirm for my own sanity, just being outside doesn't mean you can forgo the whole mask and six feet thing, right? I keep seeing big gatherings of people outside without masks and sitting at picnic tables next to each other and it makes me shudder.

    That is my understanding, but really it depends on what kind of activity you are doing. Sitting close at a picnic table for lunch is much more risky than just going for a walk. A breeze makes things even less risky because wind disperses exhaled air. A major component for transmission is the quantity and concentration of breathing air recently exhaled by others. That's what makes an enclosed room with no airflow so dangerous. Exhaled air quickly reaches dangerous saturation levels. I'd still wear a mask outdoors because you may need to go indoors for some reason.

    Anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on something.

    I'm not saying we are going to have an autocratic dystopia, but things keep happening that look like they come from an autocratic dystopia.
  • ViskodViskod Registered User regular
    If New Zealand expects a second wave, with its excellent Covid response, what hope do the rest of us have?

    I imagine the US is just going to continue riding its first wave all the way through the release of actual vaccines.

    Artereis wrote: »
    It's not your fault, Viskod. 1 out of every 10 people just happens to be a monster.
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  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    Viskod wrote: »
    If New Zealand expects a second wave, with its excellent Covid response, what hope do the rest of us have?

    I imagine the US is just going to continue riding its first wave all the way through the release of actual vaccines.

    That really feels like what kind of resolution you use. I feel like you're going to see regional splits with various increases and decreases. Of course almost no where can effectively maintain a border in the US so nowhere is going to get to NZ level "COVID free".

    thatassemblyguy
  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    Viskod wrote: »
    If New Zealand expects a second wave, with its excellent Covid response, what hope do the rest of us have?

    I imagine the US is just going to continue riding its first wave all the way through the release of actual vaccines.

    I expect our first wave will never end but keep traveling.

    MosatiElldrenGennenalyse Rueben
  • daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    Sturgis is happening this weekend, so that's certainly not going to help anything.

    Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
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  • MorganVMorganV Registered User regular
    edited August 7
    Viskod wrote: »
    If New Zealand expects a second wave, with its excellent Covid response, what hope do the rest of us have?

    I imagine the US is just going to continue riding its first wave all the way through the release of actual vaccines.

    I think that's the plan, outside some basic CDC theatre, and the occasional "Oh shit, triage time!". But actually trying to reduce it to a managed threat, let alone eradicated? Off the table. Especially with the number of "mah ryts" wankers that the US has cultivated.

    And while I think Trump is too dimwitted to come up with it himself, I think at least one shitheel* has floated the idea that if they can get a vaccine before November, it's in the President's political interests if the virus is still severe.

    After all, you can't claim to be saving a thousand people a day due to your stewardship of a vaccine, if a thousand people a day aren't dying. Don't get credit if people are already saving themselves.

    * I see you, Stephen Miller. I don't want to, but I see you.

    EDIT: I'm not saying they're wanting to make shit worse. Just saying that they're fine with not expending political capital to make things better, as the payoff if they succeed works just as well, and their inability to see anything but success is endemic.

    MorganV on
  • MosatiMosati Registered User regular
    daveNYC wrote: »
    Sturgis is happening this weekend, so that's certainly not going to help anything.

    A quarter million people from all over the country in one tiny town sure does seem like a bad idea.

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  • KoopahTroopahKoopahTroopah The koopas, the troopas. Philadelphia, PARegistered User regular
    Just wanted to thank @ceres and mods for keeping the discussion thread separate from the updates thread and vice versa. I appreciate the moderation work you all do, as usual.

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  • MarathonMarathon Registered User regular
    Mosati wrote: »
    daveNYC wrote: »
    Sturgis is happening this weekend, so that's certainly not going to help anything.

    A quarter million people from all over the country in one tiny town sure does seem like a bad idea.

    A quarter million of people statistically more likely to not wear masks in the first place, drinking heavily, and partying.

    What could go wrong?

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  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    https://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/20200807/health-directors-told-to-keep-quiet-as-fla-leaders-pressed-to-reopen-classrooms
    As Gov. Ron DeSantis pushed this summer for schools to reopen, state leaders told school boards they would need Health Department approval if they wanted to keep classrooms closed.

    Then they instructed health directors not to give it.

    Following a directive from DeSantis' administration, county health directors across Florida refused to give school boards advice about one of the most wrenching public health decisions in modern history: whether to reopen schools in a worsening pandemic, a Gannett USA TODAY NETWORK review found.

    In county after county the health directors' refrain to school leaders was the same: Their role was to provide information, not recommendations.
    Forcing open schools while pretending not to is amazingly bad, especially when it will definitely lead to a surge

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  • TetraNitroCubaneTetraNitroCubane The Djinnerator At the bottom of a bottleRegistered User regular
    edited August 7
    Our county's chief health officer is a raving buffoon.

    Here's an excerpt from his most recent statement:
    I wish to apologize to all the businesses that were closed this week. I am not supportive of these actions and, for our county, I believe they are misdirected and will cause more harm than good. This action is a bit like looking for your lost keys under a streetlight even though you lost them miles away. If you have read my previous statements, you know I put great import on balance. We have to minimize spread while not destroying everything else in the process.

    Gosh, we were seeing over 100 cases per day, have over 6,000 active cases, and over 120 deaths. But sure, leaving things open was fine and we have to go for balance.

    I'm sorry to be snippy, but this asshole is clearly trying to pander to the "BUT THE ECONOMY!!!" segment of idiots, and it just makes my heart sink when I think my health and safety are his responsibility.

    TetraNitroCubane on
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  • zagdrobzagdrob Registered User regular
    Marathon wrote: »
    Mosati wrote: »
    daveNYC wrote: »
    Sturgis is happening this weekend, so that's certainly not going to help anything.

    A quarter million people from all over the country in one tiny town sure does seem like a bad idea.

    A quarter million of people statistically more likely to not wear masks in the first place, drinking heavily, and partying.

    What could go wrong?

    For the shit lining of this cloud, the timing also works out for them to get home and pass this to their families right about the time their kids / grandkids start school.

    America is basically putting on a master class in how to not handle a pandemic. Despite some heroic but likely doomed efforts by individual states / municipalities. All the disruption and pain since March all pissed away.

    Monkey Ball WarriorMosatiGnome-InterruptusDac
  • SeñorAmorSeñorAmor !!! Registered User regular
    Our school board voted to reopen schools for elementary students (which includes my kids) 5 days a week, with class size and other restrictions. Middle and high school students are in school every other day and e-learning at home when not in school.

    Half of me is glad that my kids are going back to school. Both my wife and I work full time and not having to find childcare is a godsend. The other half fears putting my kids at risk of catching COVID and also realizes that schools aren't supposed to be day cares. I feel horrible for these poor teachers who are usually overworked and almost certainly underpaid.

    I feel like I'm wrong no matter what I do.

    MarathonHahnsoo1DoctorArchmaraji
  • MorganVMorganV Registered User regular
    Couscous wrote: »
    https://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/20200807/health-directors-told-to-keep-quiet-as-fla-leaders-pressed-to-reopen-classrooms
    As Gov. Ron DeSantis pushed this summer for schools to reopen, state leaders told school boards they would need Health Department approval if they wanted to keep classrooms closed.

    Then they instructed health directors not to give it.

    Following a directive from DeSantis' administration, county health directors across Florida refused to give school boards advice about one of the most wrenching public health decisions in modern history: whether to reopen schools in a worsening pandemic, a Gannett USA TODAY NETWORK review found.

    In county after county the health directors' refrain to school leaders was the same: Their role was to provide information, not recommendations.
    Forcing open schools while pretending not to is amazingly bad, especially when it will definitely lead to a surge

    Really looks like DeSantis is jealous of Kemp's disapproval rating.

    In a world where political action had political consequence, this would be a career ender.

    But now, who the fuck knows?

    Ticaldfjam
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    SeñorAmor wrote: »
    Our school board voted to reopen schools for elementary students (which includes my kids) 5 days a week, with class size and other restrictions. Middle and high school students are in school every other day and e-learning at home when not in school.

    Half of me is glad that my kids are going back to school. Both my wife and I work full time and not having to find childcare is a godsend. The other half fears putting my kids at risk of catching COVID and also realizes that schools aren't supposed to be day cares. I feel horrible for these poor teachers who are usually overworked and almost certainly underpaid.

    I feel like I'm wrong no matter what I do.

    Yep, we've fucked things up gloriously and there are only least terrible solutions, not good ones. I finally learn what we're doing on Monday, though it seems like the board has a majority for all virtual right now.

    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
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  • Metzger MeisterMetzger Meister Registered User regular
    My dad is a school bus driver up here in Washington and it looks like in person learning won't be resuming so we're all sorta trying to figure out what our financial situation is gonna look like. Better than front pages full of little tiny coffins I reckon.

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  • KetarKetar Come on upstairs we're having a partyRegistered User regular
    Some folks may remember that I posted a while back about how my wife was treating a large number of members of a single family for COVID in her ICU, all because they'd decided to get together for Easter. Yesterday while she was at home after work she got a text message that had her in tears for a bit: a picture sent by a cardiologist she works with of one of those family members standing with him for an outpatient appointment (sent with the patient's approval, of course).

    That man was older (60s or 70s) and spent literal months in the ICU. Only one other family member got out as well. Others, from as young as in their 20s, all passed away.

    It was a very bittersweet moment for her looking at that picture. The patient was clearly grateful to be there, but thinking about the devastation that family went through really got to her again.

    Hahnsoo1Ticaldfjam
  • PellaeonPellaeon Registered User regular
    Ketar wrote: »
    Some folks may remember that I posted a while back about how my wife was treating a large number of members of a single family for COVID in her ICU, all because they'd decided to get together for Easter. Yesterday while she was at home after work she got a text message that had her in tears for a bit: a picture sent by a cardiologist she works with of one of those family members standing with him for an outpatient appointment (sent with the patient's approval, of course).

    That man was older (60s or 70s) and spent literal months in the ICU. Only one other family member got out as well. Others, from as young as in their 20s, all passed away.

    It was a very bittersweet moment for her looking at that picture. The patient was clearly grateful to be there, but thinking about the devastation that family went through really got to her again.

    Fucking hell, hearts out to her, you, and everyone.

    Just...Christ

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  • TetraNitroCubaneTetraNitroCubane The Djinnerator At the bottom of a bottleRegistered User regular
    A seven year old died of COVID in Georgia recently. Apparently two six year olds also died this week.
    A seven-year-old boy from Georgia with no underlying health conditions became the youngest person in the state to die from coronavirus, a day after president Donald Trump said children are “almost immune from the disease”.

    The Georgia Department of Public Health announced on Thursday that the seven-year-old from Savannah, Georgia, had died after suffering a seizure in response to the virus, but did not release the date of the unnamed child’s death.

    In a statement to Fox5 in Atlanta, Dr Lawton Davis, director of the Coastal Health Department, said that “every Covid-19 death we report is tragic, but to lose someone so young is especially heart-breaking.”

    He added: “We know that older individuals and those with underlying conditions are at higher risk of complications, but this is a disease everyone should take seriously.”

    A six-year-old girl from Tennessee and a six-year-old boy from Nebraska also died from coronavirus this week. The previous youngest person to die in Georgia from Covid-19 was a 17-year-old, according to Fox News.

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  • JragghenJragghen Registered User regular
    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/travel/news/article.cfm?c_id=7&objectid=12354666
    Covid 19 coronavirus: US Government issues New Zealand travel warning due to its '23 active cases'

    This article is not satire.

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  • KoopahTroopahKoopahTroopah The koopas, the troopas. Philadelphia, PARegistered User regular
    Jragghen wrote: »
    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/travel/news/article.cfm?c_id=7&objectid=12354666
    Covid 19 coronavirus: US Government issues New Zealand travel warning due to its '23 active cases'

    This article is not satire.

    ...

    "We're not sick, YOU'RE SICK!"

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  • HenroidHenroid Seize the Memes Registered User regular
    I'm not too concerned about that until it gets taken to a press conference or campaign trail. Then it will become pretty plain propaganda.

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  • MarekMarek Registered User regular
    Between that report above about the young person's death in Georgia (and others) and my wife's school district just making the decision today to give the parents the choice between remote and partial week hybrid, I have never been more terrified in all my life.

    Terrified for my wife (kindergarten teacher). For her students. For the support staff of the (very aged) building. For all the families that extend from all the students and staff.

    I mean some of the classrooms have windows, but then some of those that do have windows open onto hallways and lobbies instead of outside (seriously?)

    As much as the above comes from being terrified, there is an equal amount of anger. This was avoidable (not totally, but VASTLY more mitigated). Period. There are so many failures at all levels, whether unintentional or malicious, that to put it in modern terms, 'I can't even'. I saw such a deep shade of red when I read the report of the student being punitively suspended for taking that hallway picture (was that also in Georgia?). And others being threatened if they turned whistleblower? Argh, just argh...

    The wishful me would hope that the vast majority in our district would pick remote, but I can identify the reality of working parents making hard decisions. Again, the anger comes back because parents should not have had to make such a grim fucking decision. There should be societal/governmental nets in place to deal with such a serious health threat. Which is still unknown in terms of long term effects because this is novel.

    All that we are left with is what can we do personally to mitigate. And it shouldn't be left to people to face that alone and unsupported.

    XBL: Jason Marek
    MosatiNightslyrGreen
  • DocshiftyDocshifty Registered User regular
    Here you can register for e-learning or in school.

    In school registration requires you to physically go to the school inside and register.

    This is gonna fucking explode around mid September

  • AntoshkaAntoshka Miauen Oil Change LazarusRegistered User regular
    Jragghen wrote: »
    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/travel/news/article.cfm?c_id=7&objectid=12354666
    Covid 19 coronavirus: US Government issues New Zealand travel warning due to its '23 active cases'

    This article is not satire.

    I'd agree it's not satire, but I'd argue the premise of the headline is garbage. Reading the article, it show that the US has a 4 category system, consisting of :

    Level 1: Exercise Normal Precautions.
    Level 2: Exercise Increased Caution.
    Level 3: Reconsider Travel.
    Level 4: Do Not Travel.

    Under that system, I'd argue nowhere in the world should be level 1, and it does make perfect sense for NZ to be classified as level 2. In this case, it seems more like our paper of record is fishing for clicks, rather than doing anything particularly useful.

    n57PM0C.jpg
    Forarphysi_marcstopgaprahkeesh2000
  • LucedesLucedes keeps happening for some reason Registered User regular
    my guess here is that literally all countries on earth are at least at level 2 "exercise caution" on the US travel advisory right now.

    checking it, and yes, that seems to be the case.
    there's a level 2 "exercise caution" warning about Antarctica. ?!
    the only places at level 1 are Macau (?) and Taiwan (??).

    while NZ should probably rightfully be at a 1, it's a cherry-picked data point to create an article title.

    AntoshkathatassemblyguyHahnsoo1Nightslyr
  • zagdrobzagdrob Registered User regular
    Lucedes wrote: »
    my guess here is that literally all countries on earth are at least at level 2 "exercise caution" on the US travel advisory right now.

    checking it, and yes, that seems to be the case.
    there's a level 2 "exercise caution" warning about Antarctica. ?!
    the only places at level 1 are Macau (?) and Taiwan (??).

    while NZ should probably rightfully be at a 1, it's a cherry-picked data point to create an article title.

    In a reasonable world if our government weren't full of selfish assholes, NZ and Iceland (the only two places that are basically clean I think?) would be a 3/4 in a sense that us Americans have too many cases and should seriously consider not going there because the chances of spreading to those places is way too high.

    Even if you're taking maximum precautions, there are vanishingly few reasons important enough for someone to go from an infected hot spot like the US, travel in a plane for 20+ hours, and risk infecting other passengers or people at the destination. I can't think of many reasons other than a NZ citizen / permanent resident being repatriated.

    thatassemblyguyLucedes
  • AntoshkaAntoshka Miauen Oil Change LazarusRegistered User regular
    zagdrob wrote: »
    Lucedes wrote: »
    my guess here is that literally all countries on earth are at least at level 2 "exercise caution" on the US travel advisory right now.

    checking it, and yes, that seems to be the case.
    there's a level 2 "exercise caution" warning about Antarctica. ?!
    the only places at level 1 are Macau (?) and Taiwan (??).

    while NZ should probably rightfully be at a 1, it's a cherry-picked data point to create an article title.

    In a reasonable world if our government weren't full of selfish assholes, NZ and Iceland (the only two places that are basically clean I think?) would be a 3/4 in a sense that us Americans have too many cases and should seriously consider not going there because the chances of spreading to those places is way too high.

    Even if you're taking maximum precautions, there are vanishingly few reasons important enough for someone to go from an infected hot spot like the US, travel in a plane for 20+ hours, and risk infecting other passengers or people at the destination. I can't think of many reasons other than a NZ citizen / permanent resident being repatriated.

    Oh, yes, the US take on this is currently irrelevant for the purposes of travel to NZ - if you are not a permanent resident, or NZ citizen, you're not going to be allowed into the country, regardless - it just irritates me that the Herald is fishing for clicks on this - particularly given the number of editorials they ran calling for measures put in place to control the virus to be loosened, and their ongoing advocacy to basically allow sufficiently rich people to get in (admittedly, this is also shared by at least one former PM).

    n57PM0C.jpg
    lonelyahavaLucedestynicMortious
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