People love taking their masks off during the exact time they need them most.
Well, it's hard to exercise and talk while wearing a mask! (sarcasm)
A lot of people seem to see masks as a totem to prove they are Good People who Care, and so it doesn't matter if they wear them round their neck or below their nose. The good intentions protect people.
People love taking their masks off during the exact time they need them most.
Well, it's hard to exercise and talk while wearing a mask!
A lot of people seem to see masks as a totem to prove they are Good People who Care, and so it doesn't matter if they wear them round their neck or below their nose. The good intentions protect people.
No really it isn't! If it is get a better mask and/or suck it up.
People love taking their masks off during the exact time they need them most.
Well, it's hard to exercise and talk while wearing a mask!
A lot of people seem to see masks as a totem to prove they are Good People who Care, and so it doesn't matter if they wear them round their neck or below their nose. The good intentions protect people.
No really it isn't! If it is get a better mask and/or suck it up.
Unfortunately the comfort of a mask is inversely proportional to its effectiveness until you get to powered respirators...
People love taking their masks off during the exact time they need them most.
Well, it's hard to exercise and talk while wearing a mask!
A lot of people seem to see masks as a totem to prove they are Good People who Care, and so it doesn't matter if they wear them round their neck or below their nose. The good intentions protect people.
No really it isn't! If it is get a better mask and/or suck it up.
Unfortunately the comfort of a mask is inversely proportional to its effectiveness until you get to powered respirators...
Nah. A lot of the cloth masks people use are really shitty. A well made one is a big jump in comfort and fit. And my N95 is more comfortable in some ways than the cloth mask because of the double straps that go behind the head and the outflow valve (which I cover with another mask atm so...mixed blessing)
People love taking their masks off during the exact time they need them most.
Well, it's hard to exercise and talk while wearing a mask!
A lot of people seem to see masks as a totem to prove they are Good People who Care, and so it doesn't matter if they wear them round their neck or below their nose. The good intentions protect people.
No really it isn't! If it is get a better mask and/or suck it up.
OK I don't think my sarcasm came across very well so I edited the post.
People love taking their masks off during the exact time they need them most.
Well, it's hard to exercise and talk while wearing a mask!
A lot of people seem to see masks as a totem to prove they are Good People who Care, and so it doesn't matter if they wear them round their neck or below their nose. The good intentions protect people.
No really it isn't! If it is get a better mask and/or suck it up.
Unfortunately the comfort of a mask is inversely proportional to its effectiveness until you get to powered respirators...
Nah. A lot of the cloth masks people use are really shitty. A well made one is a big jump in comfort and fit. And my N95 is more comfortable in some ways than the cloth mask because of the double straps that go behind the head and the outflow valve (which I cover with another mask atm so...mixed blessing)
This is definately true. A 'beaky' mask (one with a shape so that the fabric does not sit on your face) is about a million times as comfortable for long wear as a flat one. Masks made with 'specialized' wicking and drying materials are also vastly better, and masks with a tight seam which fits your face are not really more or less comfortable but are vastly more effective.
Many people are wearing masks made from heavy cloth, with poor strap placement, which are also single layer. Better than nothing, but effectively the same as taping a dish towel to your face. Scratchy, heavy, hot, retains moisture strongly and does a poor job filtering things. Compare that to one of these....
(There are cheaper ones which are vaguely the same that are like 95% as comfy, but these are the ones I use) and you will find that masks can be better, more comfortable and more reusable.
I use some simpler masks which take a replaceable 2.5 m filter in a pocket and aren't so comfortable (they still have a fitted shape, but they have thicker materials, and sit flat) when I have to go to high contamination areas because then I can just easily wash them immediately in the washing machine. I put the 2.5 m filters in dated envelopes in my garage and then don't re-use them for a month.
So basically resturants, bars, theaters and anywhere else you will be inside of for more then a half hour or need to take a mask off needs to be closed. And everywhere else inside should probably be closed.
I can see why this idea is not catching on, it would be going back to march total lockdown and need a massive funding to support people and businesses.
He's a shy overambitious dog-catcher on the wrong side of the law. She's an orphaned psychic mercenary with the power to bend men's minds. They fight crime!
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OrcaAlso known as EspressosaurusWrexRegistered Userregular
So basically resturants, bars, theaters and anywhere else you will be inside of for more then a half hour or need to take a mask off needs to be closed. And everywhere else inside should probably be closed.
I can see why this idea is not catching on, it would be going back to march total lockdown and need a massive funding to support people and businesses.
I mean, yes. Everywhere that isn't essential (e.g. grocery stores) really should not have people inside of it. There's an argument for takeout since at least that bounds the number of people in the kitchen, but indoor seating should be verboten, and outdoor seating should have about double the distance between tables that I've seen. Bars need to be closed, gyms need to be closed.
And yes, there should be massive funding to support individuals, businesses, and states during all of this.
Economic damage will continue until the pandemic ends. For every party hard idiot there's more who aren't going out and aren't spending much. Not even counting all the damage from the virus itself.
All we're really doing is taking the worst option on every axis. More infection more death worse economic outlook.
Also, it's probably time for us to rethink the "common knowledge" about safety measures. Because for the most part, our indoor safety measures.... aren't safe at all.
A spin studio that public health officials say followed all Covid-19 protocols is now reporting 61 positive cases of Covid-19, and as many as 100 staff, clients and family members may have been exposed.
Public health officials are very concerned about the number of cases and the size of the outbreak, especially because the city is not currently a hotspot and the facility was not ignoring health protocols, they said in a statement to CNN.
"They have also supported public health services in our investigation by sharing the messaging with all their members," said Richardson.
There are currently 44 confirmed positive primary cases associated with SPINCO and 17 confirmed secondary cases. Exposure was linked to several classes held from September 28 to October 4.
City officials say SPINCO was operating at 50% capacity, with a 6-foot radius around each bike, and that this might raise questions about the safety of gyms and fitness studios during the pandemic.
I think a lot of us knew this, but the idea that "six feet" means a damn thing while you're indoors for an extended period is still prevalent and dangerous.
Even though the gym adhered to a 6' separation between each bike, 44 individuals were infected. We know SARS-CoV-2 stays airborne, builds up indoors, and travels long distances on aerosols. It's time to update guidance accordingly.
Dr. Ali Nouri is a molecular biologist and president of the Federation of American Scientists.
Any "safety plan" that mentions disinfecting surfaces or deep cleaning is not safe. The big things that matter are distancing+masks (for short-term interactions) and ventilation+filtration (for long-term situations). If you're at the point where hand sanitizer would help, it's way too late.
I think this is untrue, it seems to be the case that infections with this virus go something like....
Most common -> A sorta hybrid mode of airborne infection where the particles aren't big globs of spit going on projectile paths, but they also aren't just floating around in the air forever
Less common -> Classic trajectory big globs of spit infection (coughs and sneezes and shouting in your face)
Even Less common -> Measles like, "Float in the air for three hours after you left a room and infect someone who comes in"
Even Even Less common -> Touch a dirty surface and then touch your face
So surface cleaning is still beneficial. Its just that your priorities go...
1) Outside, please be outside. Helps with everything other than #2.
2) Be distant. This helps with everything other than #4
3) Wear masks. This probably helps with everything other than #4, but might not do much against #3.
4) If you are inside, Ventilation and lots of it. Abhor the closed window!. Helps with #1 and #3
5) Proper cleaning. Helps with #4
Also, the whole world is facing a pandemic of bacteria and virus infested surfaces in general. Standards of cleaning are shitty. So regular cleaning is a good idea vs all those other diseases.
The big problem is that businesses do not want to inconvenience their customers, and definitely won't shut down voluntarily for the safety of the community. So a bunch of businesses basically say "Come on in! We sanitize every day, so it's safe to do so", while hosting synchronized sneezing competitions. Proper cleaning is nice, but the companies advertising that are using it as advertising, not as part of a comprehensive plan to keep their customers safe. They are using the presence of disinfection to encourage people to do risky and unnecessary things, and that's a problem.
Also, it's probably time for us to rethink the "common knowledge" about safety measures. Because for the most part, our indoor safety measures.... aren't safe at all.
A spin studio that public health officials say followed all Covid-19 protocols is now reporting 61 positive cases of Covid-19, and as many as 100 staff, clients and family members may have been exposed.
Public health officials are very concerned about the number of cases and the size of the outbreak, especially because the city is not currently a hotspot and the facility was not ignoring health protocols, they said in a statement to CNN.
"They have also supported public health services in our investigation by sharing the messaging with all their members," said Richardson.
There are currently 44 confirmed positive primary cases associated with SPINCO and 17 confirmed secondary cases. Exposure was linked to several classes held from September 28 to October 4.
City officials say SPINCO was operating at 50% capacity, with a 6-foot radius around each bike, and that this might raise questions about the safety of gyms and fitness studios during the pandemic.
I think a lot of us knew this, but the idea that "six feet" means a damn thing while you're indoors for an extended period is still prevalent and dangerous.
Even though the gym adhered to a 6' separation between each bike, 44 individuals were infected. We know SARS-CoV-2 stays airborne, builds up indoors, and travels long distances on aerosols. It's time to update guidance accordingly.
Dr. Ali Nouri is a molecular biologist and president of the Federation of American Scientists.
Any "safety plan" that mentions disinfecting surfaces or deep cleaning is not safe. The big things that matter are distancing+masks (for short-term interactions) and ventilation+filtration (for long-term situations). If you're at the point where hand sanitizer would help, it's way too late.
I think this is untrue, it seems to be the case that infections with this virus go something like....
Most common -> A sorta hybrid mode of airborne infection where the particles aren't big globs of spit going on projectile paths, but they also aren't just floating around in the air forever
Less common -> Classic trajectory big globs of spit infection (coughs and sneezes and shouting in your face)
Even Less common -> Measles like, "Float in the air for three hours after you left a room and infect someone who comes in"
Even Even Less common -> Touch a dirty surface and then touch your face
So surface cleaning is still beneficial. Its just that your priorities go...
1) Outside, please be outside. Helps with everything other than #2.
2) Be distant. This helps with everything other than #4
3) Wear masks. This probably helps with everything other than #4, but might not do much against #3.
4) If you are inside, Ventilation and lots of it. Abhor the closed window!. Helps with #1 and #3
5) Proper cleaning. Helps with #4
Also, the whole world is facing a pandemic of bacteria and virus infested surfaces in general. Standards of cleaning are shitty. So regular cleaning is a good idea vs all those other diseases.
The big problem is that businesses do not want to inconvenience their customers, and definitely won't shut down voluntarily for the safety of the community. So a bunch of businesses basically say "Come on in! We sanitize every day, so it's safe to do so", while hosting synchronized sneezing competitions. Proper cleaning is nice, but the companies advertising that are using it as advertising, not as part of a comprehensive plan to keep their customers safe. They are using the presence of disinfection to encourage people to do risky and unnecessary things, and that's a problem.
Absolutely. Surface cleaning is like, layer 10 of a comprehensive safety plan if you are doing it properly. If we were trying to prevent deaths from Drunk Driving, then surface cleaning is the equivalent of saying, "We got the local rugby team to no longer be sponsored by Vodka and instead be sponsored by Pizza Hut, the streets are safe again!", it's not a BAD idea, and it will help, but tis absolutely impossible to imagine its enough by itself.
In a "maybe we shouldn't have..." news Nick Saban and one of his assistants has tested positive for Covid.
Man it's almost like its a communicable disease and having people playing a contact sport is a bad idea if you aren't going into a bubble like the NBA did.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
In a "maybe we shouldn't have..." news Nick Saban and one of his assistants has tested positive for Covid.
Man it's almost like its a communicable disease and having people playing a contact sport is a bad idea if you aren't going into a bubble like the NBA did.
I think we should shout out to the women's professional soccer league, who were amongst the first to do the sports bubble format, before any of the major men's leagues.
And, for those of you in the USA that aren't sure just how badly you've been failed, just look at the deaths per million population or cases per million columns on worldometers.
I mean, both of your North American neighbours are handling this better, if the numbers are right.
People love taking their masks off during the exact time they need them most.
Well, it's hard to exercise and talk while wearing a mask!
A lot of people seem to see masks as a totem to prove they are Good People who Care, and so it doesn't matter if they wear them round their neck or below their nose. The good intentions protect people.
No really it isn't! If it is get a better mask and/or suck it up.
It is much more uncomfortable to exercise with a mask. I deal with it
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
One of the things that really irritates me about this (I mean, there are many, but it's big now), is my dad had a MASSIVE stroke thursday night. He then took on a big case of pneumonia (that looks like he will probably not survive and is not Covid). We are LUCKY that we are allowed any visitors at all, but the hospital he is at allows us 1 visitor in any given day, so my brother's and I have been rotating through. I have the most flexible work so I've been in a hospital room damn near every other day for 8-12 hours a day masked up.
I say this not for sympathy about my dad... I say this for two reasons:
1) It sucks wearing a mask, but suck it up.
2) If people reliably followed #1 and other measures, my whole family might be able to visit my dad freely (or any other numbers of families with similar problems).
Surface cleaning is easy and cheap to implement, and also very visible. Perfect theatre.
The theater of it is actually good in this incidence though if you messaged it right. Seeing people take things seriously makes others take it seriously. Companies should be saying, "Look how careful we are being with all this cleaning and disinfection. This stuff is dangerous! We're doing tonnes of other things behind the scenes, you should be careful too!"
In a "maybe we shouldn't have..." news Nick Saban and one of his assistants has tested positive for Covid.
Man it's almost like its a communicable disease and having people playing a contact sport is a bad idea if you aren't going into a bubble like the NBA did.
I think we should shout out to the women's professional soccer league, who were amongst the first to do the sports bubble format, before any of the major men's leagues.
And, for those of you in the USA that aren't sure just how badly you've been failed, just look at the deaths per million population or cases per million columns on worldometers.
I mean, both of your North American neighbours are handling this better, if the numbers are right.
Eh, I think you're probably better off looking at Canada. Mexico has a test positivity rate of above 30% they aren't identifying every case or death! Also. Mexico has 85k deaths in a population of 120 million vs the USA with 210k deaths in a population of 330 million. We are approximately equally rubbish.
Yeah at this point surface cleaning may have some marginal impact but is mostly theater. Masks and airflow are the factors, nobody is catching COVID because someone sneezed near their pizza.
It's fair people went hard towards cleaning and gloves back in March / April when we didnt know and it has non-zero impact but it doesn't make a big difference as far as anything I've seen.
And for the record, when I say didnt know in March / April that is wholly on the feet of Trump and various letter agencies that should have told us.
I get there was a shortage of masks for healthcare workers they didn't want to exacerbate but pretending masks didn't matter and 'wash hands / no touch face is all you can do' was negligent disservice to the public.
And for the record, when I say didnt know in March / April that is wholly on the feet of Trump and various letter agencies that should have told us.
I get there was a shortage of masks for healthcare workers they didn't want to exacerbate but pretending masks didn't matter and 'wash hands / no touch face is all you can do' was negligent disservice to the public.
They knew better then.
I would say that fomite transmission vs weird aorta droplets sorta airborne transmission this disease has was a genuine weakness of academic study throughout the west. Agencies in Asia knew that masks worked at a population level, but failed at an individual level (ie, wear a cloth mask and care for a sick person you get sick, but you get sick on day 15 rather than day 5) and advised them based on that. Western agencies were the opposite. The masks failed in the "prevent infection in a home while caring for a sick flu patient" trial, so they failed, but they neglected that they would be enormously effective if a whole society used them.
And for the record, when I say didnt know in March / April that is wholly on the feet of Trump and various letter agencies that should have told us.
I get there was a shortage of masks for healthcare workers they didn't want to exacerbate but pretending masks didn't matter and 'wash hands / no touch face is all you can do' was negligent disservice to the public.
They knew better then.
I would say that fomite transmission vs weird aorta droplets sorta airborne transmission this disease has was a genuine weakness of academic study throughout the west. Agencies in Asia knew that masks worked at a population level, but failed at an individual level (ie, wear a cloth mask and care for a sick person you get sick, but you get sick on day 15 rather than day 5) and advised them based on that. Western agencies were the opposite. The masks failed in the "prevent infection in a home while caring for a sick flu patient" trial, so they failed, but they neglected that they would be enormously effective if a whole society used them.
Yes and again a full failing of Trump and associated appointees. The evidence was there from basically January 1 without any special intelligence that at a population level masks work and help.
The CDC should have had the country masked up and 6' apart by Valentines day, and we would be appalled at our 10k deaths and 200k cases to date.
The only thing preventing that was Trump directly and indirectly.
And for the record, when I say didnt know in March / April that is wholly on the feet of Trump and various letter agencies that should have told us.
I get there was a shortage of masks for healthcare workers they didn't want to exacerbate but pretending masks didn't matter and 'wash hands / no touch face is all you can do' was negligent disservice to the public.
They knew better then.
I would say that fomite transmission vs weird aorta droplets sorta airborne transmission this disease has was a genuine weakness of academic study throughout the west. Agencies in Asia knew that masks worked at a population level, but failed at an individual level (ie, wear a cloth mask and care for a sick person you get sick, but you get sick on day 15 rather than day 5) and advised them based on that. Western agencies were the opposite. The masks failed in the "prevent infection in a home while caring for a sick flu patient" trial, so they failed, but they neglected that they would be enormously effective if a whole society used them.
Yes and again a full failing of Trump and associated appointees. The evidence was there from basically January 1 without any special intelligence that at a population level masks work and help.
The CDC should have had the country masked up and 6' apart by Valentines day, and we would be appalled at our 10k deaths and 200k cases to date.
The only thing preventing that was Trump directly and indirectly.
My point is that this (CDC doesn't think masks help much) was a genuine failing of western medical thinking internationally. The studies that they quoted to say "masks don't work" actually showed they did work.
The cdc would have acted sooner without Trump, but, "The CDC and counterpart agencies throughout Europe has a weird reticence to recommend masks" is one of the few things you can't lay at his feet. Skilled people had genuinely fallen into a logical fallacy which led to them misinterpreting data and believing masks, other than carefully used N95s and surgical masks in controlled situations, didn't work.
You can see the failing continuing for months, with the endless concern about mask sterilization and face touching and so on, when all the studies showed they worked and kept working even with a scrubbing.
Surface cleaning is easy and cheap to implement, and also very visible. Perfect theatre.
The theater of it is actually good in this incidence though if you messaged it right. Seeing people take things seriously makes others take it seriously. Companies should be saying, "Look how careful we are being with all this cleaning and disinfection. This stuff is dangerous! We're doing tonnes of other things behind the scenes, you should be careful too!"
In a "maybe we shouldn't have..." news Nick Saban and one of his assistants has tested positive for Covid.
Man it's almost like its a communicable disease and having people playing a contact sport is a bad idea if you aren't going into a bubble like the NBA did.
I think we should shout out to the women's professional soccer league, who were amongst the first to do the sports bubble format, before any of the major men's leagues.
And, for those of you in the USA that aren't sure just how badly you've been failed, just look at the deaths per million population or cases per million columns on worldometers.
I mean, both of your North American neighbours are handling this better, if the numbers are right.
Eh, I think you're probably better off looking at Canada. Mexico has a test positivity rate of above 30% they aren't identifying every case or death! Also. Mexico has 85k deaths in a population of 120 million vs the USA with 210k deaths in a population of 330 million. We are approximately equally rubbish.
Bold = Canada & Mexico. Certainly, Mexico isn't doing as well as Canada, but here in Canada we have the advantages of lesser population density and possibly a better health care system than Mexico. I'm largely ignorant of Mexican health care so it wouldn't be appropriate to make a judgement though.
Cloth masks *don't* work in the context that was being used. That is they don't significantly hinder disease transmission to the wearer. They're a little better than we thought at the time but still better than nothing. For the CDC etc all that and keeping a supply of the functional stuff for health care workers was that. The other direction wasn't considered.
Bit of a blind spot, yes. OTOH Trump could have just used the Defense Production Act to ramp production of N95s up and *everyone* could have one..
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TetraNitroCubaneThe DjinneratorAt the bottom of a bottleRegistered Userregular
Cloth masks *don't* work in the context that was being used. That is they don't significantly hinder disease transmission to the wearer. They're a little better than we thought at the time but still better than nothing. For the CDC etc all that and keeping a supply of the functional stuff for health care workers was that. The other direction wasn't considered.
Bit of a blind spot, yes. OTOH Trump could have just used the Defense Production Act to ramp production of N95s up and *everyone* could have one..
No, you've fallen back into the logical fallacy. The studies showed that everyone caring for the sick patients, whether they wore cloth masks or not, became infected during the course of providing care. However, the studies showed that people in cloth masks took about 2x as long before they were infected. Meaning that on a 'per exposure day' scale, the poorly used cloth masks worked fine, its just that caring for a flu patient generated too many exposure days. In addition, we've subsequently learned that masks seem more effective against Covid than they are against flu.
Cloth masks protect you AND those around you. The protection for those around you is more important, but no question they protect you too.
One of the things that really irritates me about this (I mean, there are many, but it's big now), is my dad had a MASSIVE stroke thursday night. He then took on a big case of pneumonia (that looks like he will probably not survive and is not Covid). We are LUCKY that we are allowed any visitors at all, but the hospital he is at allows us 1 visitor in any given day, so my brother's and I have been rotating through. I have the most flexible work so I've been in a hospital room damn near every other day for 8-12 hours a day masked up.
I say this not for sympathy about my dad... I say this for two reasons:
1) It sucks wearing a mask, but suck it up.
2) If people reliably followed #1 and other measures, my whole family might be able to visit my dad freely (or any other numbers of families with similar problems).
God I hate people so much right now.
Sorry (not sorry), double fuck people right now. Hospital told me tonight we no longer can have ANY visitors due to covid cases rising and him being on system blowing air. I might actually punch an anti-Covid/masks/shutdown person.
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
Taking a vaccine would mean admitting there was a problem.
This is it right here
Vaccination against COVID is like mask use to folks in Trumpland
Holy fuck I just realized that if/when we get a good vaccine all these dipshits aren’t goi g to take it and all the people who can’t get vaccinated will still be at risk
This.
We will never be fully rid of Corona.
No, if the vaccine is very effective (or if a very effective second+ gen vaccine comes out), then it would be possible to eradicate it. Not easy, or cheap, but possible. You get the numbers down enough that contact tracing works, and you trace and isolate. Eventually nobody is contagious and the virus is extinct.
Obviously we could have done this back in April and saved hundreds of thousands of lives. But from where we are now it will take a polio-level decade long project. But it is at least feasible.
How does the high asymptomatic carriers for Covid fit into this plan?
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
And for the record, when I say didnt know in March / April that is wholly on the feet of Trump and various letter agencies that should have told us.
I get there was a shortage of masks for healthcare workers they didn't want to exacerbate but pretending masks didn't matter and 'wash hands / no touch face is all you can do' was negligent disservice to the public.
They knew better then.
I would say that fomite transmission vs weird aorta droplets sorta airborne transmission this disease has was a genuine weakness of academic study throughout the west. Agencies in Asia knew that masks worked at a population level, but failed at an individual level (ie, wear a cloth mask and care for a sick person you get sick, but you get sick on day 15 rather than day 5) and advised them based on that. Western agencies were the opposite. The masks failed in the "prevent infection in a home while caring for a sick flu patient" trial, so they failed, but they neglected that they would be enormously effective if a whole society used them.
Yes and again a full failing of Trump and associated appointees. The evidence was there from basically January 1 without any special intelligence that at a population level masks work and help.
The CDC should have had the country masked up and 6' apart by Valentines day, and we would be appalled at our 10k deaths and 200k cases to date.
The only thing preventing that was Trump directly and indirectly.
My point is that this (CDC doesn't think masks help much) was a genuine failing of western medical thinking internationally. The studies that they quoted to say "masks don't work" actually showed they did work.
The cdc would have acted sooner without Trump, but, "The CDC and counterpart agencies throughout Europe has a weird reticence to recommend masks" is one of the few things you can't lay at his feet. Skilled people had genuinely fallen into a logical fallacy which led to them misinterpreting data and believing masks, other than carefully used N95s and surgical masks in controlled situations, didn't work.
You can see the failing continuing for months, with the endless concern about mask sterilization and face touching and so on, when all the studies showed they worked and kept working even with a scrubbing.
The US post office was ready to send everyone a basic mask in Feb but that was shut down by Trump not wanting to make Covid a big deal. I think the reticence in advocating masks by western countries was also partly tied up a bit in wanting to secure the higher grade ones for hospitals, and not wanting to compete with people/companies trying to get them for private sales.
+20
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
And for the record, when I say didnt know in March / April that is wholly on the feet of Trump and various letter agencies that should have told us.
I get there was a shortage of masks for healthcare workers they didn't want to exacerbate but pretending masks didn't matter and 'wash hands / no touch face is all you can do' was negligent disservice to the public.
They knew better then.
I would say that fomite transmission vs weird aorta droplets sorta airborne transmission this disease has was a genuine weakness of academic study throughout the west. Agencies in Asia knew that masks worked at a population level, but failed at an individual level (ie, wear a cloth mask and care for a sick person you get sick, but you get sick on day 15 rather than day 5) and advised them based on that. Western agencies were the opposite. The masks failed in the "prevent infection in a home while caring for a sick flu patient" trial, so they failed, but they neglected that they would be enormously effective if a whole society used them.
Yes and again a full failing of Trump and associated appointees. The evidence was there from basically January 1 without any special intelligence that at a population level masks work and help.
The CDC should have had the country masked up and 6' apart by Valentines day, and we would be appalled at our 10k deaths and 200k cases to date.
The only thing preventing that was Trump directly and indirectly.
My point is that this (CDC doesn't think masks help much) was a genuine failing of western medical thinking internationally. The studies that they quoted to say "masks don't work" actually showed they did work.
The cdc would have acted sooner without Trump, but, "The CDC and counterpart agencies throughout Europe has a weird reticence to recommend masks" is one of the few things you can't lay at his feet. Skilled people had genuinely fallen into a logical fallacy which led to them misinterpreting data and believing masks, other than carefully used N95s and surgical masks in controlled situations, didn't work.
You can see the failing continuing for months, with the endless concern about mask sterilization and face touching and so on, when all the studies showed they worked and kept working even with a scrubbing.
The US post office was ready to send everyone a basic mask in Feb but that was shut down by Trump not wanting to make Covid a big deal. I think the reticence in advocating masks by western countries was also partly tied up a bit in wanting to secure the higher grade ones for hospitals, and not wanting to compete with people/companies trying to get them for private sales.
Which could have been mitigated, but Trump wanted to use the DPA for grift.
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daveNYCWhy universe hate Waspinator?Registered Userregular
And for the record, when I say didnt know in March / April that is wholly on the feet of Trump and various letter agencies that should have told us.
I get there was a shortage of masks for healthcare workers they didn't want to exacerbate but pretending masks didn't matter and 'wash hands / no touch face is all you can do' was negligent disservice to the public.
They knew better then.
I would say that fomite transmission vs weird aorta droplets sorta airborne transmission this disease has was a genuine weakness of academic study throughout the west. Agencies in Asia knew that masks worked at a population level, but failed at an individual level (ie, wear a cloth mask and care for a sick person you get sick, but you get sick on day 15 rather than day 5) and advised them based on that. Western agencies were the opposite. The masks failed in the "prevent infection in a home while caring for a sick flu patient" trial, so they failed, but they neglected that they would be enormously effective if a whole society used them.
Yes and again a full failing of Trump and associated appointees. The evidence was there from basically January 1 without any special intelligence that at a population level masks work and help.
The CDC should have had the country masked up and 6' apart by Valentines day, and we would be appalled at our 10k deaths and 200k cases to date.
The only thing preventing that was Trump directly and indirectly.
My point is that this (CDC doesn't think masks help much) was a genuine failing of western medical thinking internationally. The studies that they quoted to say "masks don't work" actually showed they did work.
The cdc would have acted sooner without Trump, but, "The CDC and counterpart agencies throughout Europe has a weird reticence to recommend masks" is one of the few things you can't lay at his feet. Skilled people had genuinely fallen into a logical fallacy which led to them misinterpreting data and believing masks, other than carefully used N95s and surgical masks in controlled situations, didn't work.
You can see the failing continuing for months, with the endless concern about mask sterilization and face touching and so on, when all the studies showed they worked and kept working even with a scrubbing.
The US post office was ready to send everyone a basic mask in Feb but that was shut down by Trump not wanting to make Covid a big deal. I think the reticence in advocating masks by western countries was also partly tied up a bit in wanting to secure the higher grade ones for hospitals, and not wanting to compete with people/companies trying to get them for private sales.
Could be. Initially when people were talking about masks it did seem like they were only considering medical kit, if not the N95 stuff. I still think that a big part of the problem was that western countries got it into their heads that this thing spread by touch, and then they stuck with it long past the point when airborne spread was obviously a thing.
Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
People love taking their masks off during the exact time they need them most.
Well, it's hard to exercise and talk while wearing a mask!
A lot of people seem to see masks as a totem to prove they are Good People who Care, and so it doesn't matter if they wear them round their neck or below their nose. The good intentions protect people.
No really it isn't! If it is get a better mask and/or suck it up.
It is much more uncomfortable to exercise with a mask. I deal with it
That's more what I was getting at, a mask or respirator with smaller effective pore size is more effortful to breath through. I've known people that had to scrub a test chamber in a full face and it is exhausting.
Taking a vaccine would mean admitting there was a problem.
This is it right here
Vaccination against COVID is like mask use to folks in Trumpland
Holy fuck I just realized that if/when we get a good vaccine all these dipshits aren’t goi g to take it and all the people who can’t get vaccinated will still be at risk
This.
We will never be fully rid of Corona.
No, if the vaccine is very effective (or if a very effective second+ gen vaccine comes out), then it would be possible to eradicate it. Not easy, or cheap, but possible. You get the numbers down enough that contact tracing works, and you trace and isolate. Eventually nobody is contagious and the virus is extinct.
Obviously we could have done this back in April and saved hundreds of thousands of lives. But from where we are now it will take a polio-level decade long project. But it is at least feasible.
How does the high asymptomatic carriers for Covid fit into this plan?
Easily? He's imagining a world with a highly effective vaccine. If you maintain high levels of contact tracing and testing you can drive the virus out community by community, nation by nation.
Contact tracing is hard now because each person might infect 2 others and then 2 others and noone is vaccinated so everyone is a concern. If you have a vaccine which is highly effective then you can just ask someone "have you been vaccinated?" And if their medical records say yes then you dont need to worry about them any more.
Its how we managed to eliminate measles in some nations for many years, which is vastly more infectious. And smallpox, which is similarly infectious.
Reading about all the indoor stuff is giving me a whole lot of anxiety. I work at a school that requires masks for everyone inside the building, but classrooms aren't big enough for any sort of distancing, and how much does that even matter when you have 25 kids in a room for 50 minutes at a time? They're all wearing masks, but is that actually going to help enough? Apparently health officials have also said that if one of those kids tests positive, the only people that have to quarantine are that kid and anyone that kid has been in contact with without a mask on.
And of course, kids have to eat, so during lunch, or fire drills, or waiting outside before school, kids are outside and standing in close groups without masks on. Adults do it too. Only have to wear a mask when you're indoors, so people go outside and have normal conversations without distancing.
So far we've been doing pretty well. We've had some cases but supposedly they've contact traced and people got it from other places, not from the school. But it sure feels like what we're doing has just been luck so far. I'm sure the mask requirement has helped, but I'd be surprised if it'll keep us safe forever.
Reading about all the indoor stuff is giving me a whole lot of anxiety. I work at a school that requires masks for everyone inside the building, but classrooms aren't big enough for any sort of distancing, and how much does that even matter when you have 25 kids in a room for 50 minutes at a time? They're all wearing masks, but is that actually going to help enough? Apparently health officials have also said that if one of those kids tests positive, the only people that have to quarantine are that kid and anyone that kid has been in contact with without a mask on.
And of course, kids have to eat, so during lunch, or fire drills, or waiting outside before school, kids are outside and standing in close groups without masks on. Adults do it too. Only have to wear a mask when you're indoors, so people go outside and have normal conversations without distancing.
So far we've been doing pretty well. We've had some cases but supposedly they've contact traced and people got it from other places, not from the school. But it sure feels like what we're doing has just been luck so far. I'm sure the mask requirement has helped, but I'd be surprised if it'll keep us safe forever.
Good things help, but being indoors piles a lot of weight against those good things. Advocate for mask wearing inside and out, for staggered lunchtimes and do all you can to keep windows open. If you can't, or as a bonus, try to get some standing air purifiers units for each classroom. Kids and staff all in masks will help, but you will get leakage and you need a way to clear that out. Ventilation is best, filtration if you can't.
Also advocate for staff testing, ideally weekly if not more.
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Well, it's hard to exercise and talk while wearing a mask! (sarcasm)
A lot of people seem to see masks as a totem to prove they are Good People who Care, and so it doesn't matter if they wear them round their neck or below their nose. The good intentions protect people.
No really it isn't! If it is get a better mask and/or suck it up.
Unfortunately the comfort of a mask is inversely proportional to its effectiveness until you get to powered respirators...
Nah. A lot of the cloth masks people use are really shitty. A well made one is a big jump in comfort and fit. And my N95 is more comfortable in some ways than the cloth mask because of the double straps that go behind the head and the outflow valve (which I cover with another mask atm so...mixed blessing)
OK I don't think my sarcasm came across very well so I edited the post.
Ha, my small child did this the first time she wore a mask. She completely forgets she's wearing it now.
This is definately true. A 'beaky' mask (one with a shape so that the fabric does not sit on your face) is about a million times as comfortable for long wear as a flat one. Masks made with 'specialized' wicking and drying materials are also vastly better, and masks with a tight seam which fits your face are not really more or less comfortable but are vastly more effective.
Many people are wearing masks made from heavy cloth, with poor strap placement, which are also single layer. Better than nothing, but effectively the same as taping a dish towel to your face. Scratchy, heavy, hot, retains moisture strongly and does a poor job filtering things. Compare that to one of these....
https://www.happymasks.com/
(There are cheaper ones which are vaguely the same that are like 95% as comfy, but these are the ones I use) and you will find that masks can be better, more comfortable and more reusable.
I use some simpler masks which take a replaceable 2.5 m filter in a pocket and aren't so comfortable (they still have a fitted shape, but they have thicker materials, and sit flat) when I have to go to high contamination areas because then I can just easily wash them immediately in the washing machine. I put the 2.5 m filters in dated envelopes in my garage and then don't re-use them for a month.
I can see why this idea is not catching on, it would be going back to march total lockdown and need a massive funding to support people and businesses.
I mean, yes. Everywhere that isn't essential (e.g. grocery stores) really should not have people inside of it. There's an argument for takeout since at least that bounds the number of people in the kitchen, but indoor seating should be verboten, and outdoor seating should have about double the distance between tables that I've seen. Bars need to be closed, gyms need to be closed.
And yes, there should be massive funding to support individuals, businesses, and states during all of this.
All we're really doing is taking the worst option on every axis. More infection more death worse economic outlook.
The big problem is that businesses do not want to inconvenience their customers, and definitely won't shut down voluntarily for the safety of the community. So a bunch of businesses basically say "Come on in! We sanitize every day, so it's safe to do so", while hosting synchronized sneezing competitions. Proper cleaning is nice, but the companies advertising that are using it as advertising, not as part of a comprehensive plan to keep their customers safe. They are using the presence of disinfection to encourage people to do risky and unnecessary things, and that's a problem.
Absolutely. Surface cleaning is like, layer 10 of a comprehensive safety plan if you are doing it properly. If we were trying to prevent deaths from Drunk Driving, then surface cleaning is the equivalent of saying, "We got the local rugby team to no longer be sponsored by Vodka and instead be sponsored by Pizza Hut, the streets are safe again!", it's not a BAD idea, and it will help, but tis absolutely impossible to imagine its enough by itself.
Who should be used to that by now?
Man it's almost like its a communicable disease and having people playing a contact sport is a bad idea if you aren't going into a bubble like the NBA did.
pleasepaypreacher.net
I think we should shout out to the women's professional soccer league, who were amongst the first to do the sports bubble format, before any of the major men's leagues.
And, for those of you in the USA that aren't sure just how badly you've been failed, just look at the deaths per million population or cases per million columns on worldometers.
I mean, both of your North American neighbours are handling this better, if the numbers are right.
It is much more uncomfortable to exercise with a mask. I deal with it
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
I say this not for sympathy about my dad... I say this for two reasons:
1) It sucks wearing a mask, but suck it up.
2) If people reliably followed #1 and other measures, my whole family might be able to visit my dad freely (or any other numbers of families with similar problems).
God I hate people so much right now.
The theater of it is actually good in this incidence though if you messaged it right. Seeing people take things seriously makes others take it seriously. Companies should be saying, "Look how careful we are being with all this cleaning and disinfection. This stuff is dangerous! We're doing tonnes of other things behind the scenes, you should be careful too!"
Like, hiring a ther
Eh, I think you're probably better off looking at Canada. Mexico has a test positivity rate of above 30% they aren't identifying every case or death! Also. Mexico has 85k deaths in a population of 120 million vs the USA with 210k deaths in a population of 330 million. We are approximately equally rubbish.
It's fair people went hard towards cleaning and gloves back in March / April when we didnt know and it has non-zero impact but it doesn't make a big difference as far as anything I've seen.
I get there was a shortage of masks for healthcare workers they didn't want to exacerbate but pretending masks didn't matter and 'wash hands / no touch face is all you can do' was negligent disservice to the public.
They knew better then.
I would say that fomite transmission vs weird aorta droplets sorta airborne transmission this disease has was a genuine weakness of academic study throughout the west. Agencies in Asia knew that masks worked at a population level, but failed at an individual level (ie, wear a cloth mask and care for a sick person you get sick, but you get sick on day 15 rather than day 5) and advised them based on that. Western agencies were the opposite. The masks failed in the "prevent infection in a home while caring for a sick flu patient" trial, so they failed, but they neglected that they would be enormously effective if a whole society used them.
Yes and again a full failing of Trump and associated appointees. The evidence was there from basically January 1 without any special intelligence that at a population level masks work and help.
The CDC should have had the country masked up and 6' apart by Valentines day, and we would be appalled at our 10k deaths and 200k cases to date.
The only thing preventing that was Trump directly and indirectly.
My point is that this (CDC doesn't think masks help much) was a genuine failing of western medical thinking internationally. The studies that they quoted to say "masks don't work" actually showed they did work.
The cdc would have acted sooner without Trump, but, "The CDC and counterpart agencies throughout Europe has a weird reticence to recommend masks" is one of the few things you can't lay at his feet. Skilled people had genuinely fallen into a logical fallacy which led to them misinterpreting data and believing masks, other than carefully used N95s and surgical masks in controlled situations, didn't work.
You can see the failing continuing for months, with the endless concern about mask sterilization and face touching and so on, when all the studies showed they worked and kept working even with a scrubbing.
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Bold = Canada & Mexico. Certainly, Mexico isn't doing as well as Canada, but here in Canada we have the advantages of lesser population density and possibly a better health care system than Mexico. I'm largely ignorant of Mexican health care so it wouldn't be appropriate to make a judgement though.
Bit of a blind spot, yes. OTOH Trump could have just used the Defense Production Act to ramp production of N95s up and *everyone* could have one..
Reuters is a major news outlet
Okay so, nothing particularly new here, but....
Honestly those simulation graphics are kinda hilarious.
No, you've fallen back into the logical fallacy. The studies showed that everyone caring for the sick patients, whether they wore cloth masks or not, became infected during the course of providing care. However, the studies showed that people in cloth masks took about 2x as long before they were infected. Meaning that on a 'per exposure day' scale, the poorly used cloth masks worked fine, its just that caring for a flu patient generated too many exposure days. In addition, we've subsequently learned that masks seem more effective against Covid than they are against flu.
Cloth masks protect you AND those around you. The protection for those around you is more important, but no question they protect you too.
Sorry (not sorry), double fuck people right now. Hospital told me tonight we no longer can have ANY visitors due to covid cases rising and him being on system blowing air. I might actually punch an anti-Covid/masks/shutdown person.
How does the high asymptomatic carriers for Covid fit into this plan?
The US post office was ready to send everyone a basic mask in Feb but that was shut down by Trump not wanting to make Covid a big deal. I think the reticence in advocating masks by western countries was also partly tied up a bit in wanting to secure the higher grade ones for hospitals, and not wanting to compete with people/companies trying to get them for private sales.
Which could have been mitigated, but Trump wanted to use the DPA for grift.
Could be. Initially when people were talking about masks it did seem like they were only considering medical kit, if not the N95 stuff. I still think that a big part of the problem was that western countries got it into their heads that this thing spread by touch, and then they stuck with it long past the point when airborne spread was obviously a thing.
That's more what I was getting at, a mask or respirator with smaller effective pore size is more effortful to breath through. I've known people that had to scrub a test chamber in a full face and it is exhausting.
Easily? He's imagining a world with a highly effective vaccine. If you maintain high levels of contact tracing and testing you can drive the virus out community by community, nation by nation.
Contact tracing is hard now because each person might infect 2 others and then 2 others and noone is vaccinated so everyone is a concern. If you have a vaccine which is highly effective then you can just ask someone "have you been vaccinated?" And if their medical records say yes then you dont need to worry about them any more.
Its how we managed to eliminate measles in some nations for many years, which is vastly more infectious. And smallpox, which is similarly infectious.
And of course, kids have to eat, so during lunch, or fire drills, or waiting outside before school, kids are outside and standing in close groups without masks on. Adults do it too. Only have to wear a mask when you're indoors, so people go outside and have normal conversations without distancing.
So far we've been doing pretty well. We've had some cases but supposedly they've contact traced and people got it from other places, not from the school. But it sure feels like what we're doing has just been luck so far. I'm sure the mask requirement has helped, but I'd be surprised if it'll keep us safe forever.
Good things help, but being indoors piles a lot of weight against those good things. Advocate for mask wearing inside and out, for staggered lunchtimes and do all you can to keep windows open. If you can't, or as a bonus, try to get some standing air purifiers units for each classroom. Kids and staff all in masks will help, but you will get leakage and you need a way to clear that out. Ventilation is best, filtration if you can't.
Also advocate for staff testing, ideally weekly if not more.