The General [Coronavirus] Discussion Thread is WAY worse than the flu

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  • TetraNitroCubaneTetraNitroCubane The Djinnerator At the bottom of a bottleRegistered User regular
    edited October 16
    Forget it - I don't need to be gaslit in this thread.

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  • tbloxhamtbloxham Registered User regular
    edited October 16
    tbloxham wrote: »
    Well damn.

    Gotta wonder how California is dropping the ball this hard. Though it does partly explain why our numbers keep going up and up and up, and our ICU space keeps going down and down and down...

    Do you live in a different California? Because, thats literally not happening. It could start happening tomorrow to be sure, but there's literally zero available data anywhere which indicates anything like what you are saying here.

    Hospitalizations in California are at their lowest levels since April 13th. ICU numbers the same. Where is your data coming from?

    www.covid.ca.gov

    Our test numbers are lower than they should be, but trending the right way. Positivity is still falling. Deaths are falling.

    My mother got a COVID test through Kaiser in the SF Bay Area. It took a week to get results.

    I've taken three through my workplace. They each took five days.

    My county has had rising numbers with an Reff > 1 for the past month. Our ICU has less than 5 beds available at the moment, according to the tracker.

    But hey, thanks for telling me that's not happening. Great to know.

    You didn't say, "The county where I live", you said, "California". And no, what you describe is not happening in California. You are presenting your local experience which does not reflect statewide norms as indicative of statewide norms, when it is not.

    https://covid19.ca.gov/state-dashboard/

    tbloxham on
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  • TetraNitroCubaneTetraNitroCubane The Djinnerator At the bottom of a bottleRegistered User regular
    edited October 16
    Forget it

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  • tbloxhamtbloxham Registered User regular
    dispatch.o wrote: »
    Biden being in charge wont make the people already encouraged to put others in danger just evaporate. Someone with a functional CDC and clear role as a leader could have done something 9 months ago.

    Biden will halt the decline maybe. He's not a time wizard. The people who aren't taking this seriously now and are causing problems are with us for at least a decade.

    I would say that the immensely frustrating part is that we don't need the government to do 10x better and the people to behave 10 x better. Looking at our numbers, we need people to buck up nationwide by like 20% and the government to try like, a little bit. Rt is not 2. It's between 0.8 and 1.3 depending on your state. We don't need a miracle, we just need someone to get to blooming work. We are already doing nearly a million tests a day with active federal malice towards the test program. Not just, not helping. Active malice towards it. I genuinely think Biden and a competent government might be able to work miracles here.

    "That is cool" - Abraham Lincoln
  • MrMonroeMrMonroe Registered User regular
    I also don't know what county you live in but it doesn't really reflect "the Bay Area" either. Alameda, SF, and Marin counties all appear fairly stable in terms of new cases and bed capacity for the last couple months. Obviously higher than 0 is bad but it's not like things are actively getting worse. Obviously single observations do not data make, but my wife's Kaiser-supplied test two weeks ago took <24 hours to get results back. :shrug:

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  • tbloxhamtbloxham Registered User regular
    Not coronavirus, but tangentially related.


    https://www.statnews.com/2020/10/14/first-ebola-therapy-approved-by-the-fda/

    Not coronavirus news, but, related because Regeneron is making one of the most promising antibody treatments for Coronavirus. Their monoclonal antibody for Ebola just got approved by the FDA, and halves the death rate from Ebola (~35% die, compared to next best treatment at 51% (another monoclonal antibody), or the Zaire outbreak in general at 65%).

    "That is cool" - Abraham Lincoln
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  • lonelyahavalonelyahava Call me Ahava Move to New ZealandRegistered User regular
    In New Zealand

    Last weekend we went to the pool on Saturday. We spent about two hours there all told. Hot, humid, chlorine, lots of people. Sunday rolls around and I'm not feeling so good. Headache, cough, stuffy nose, sneezing. So I just chill at home. Monday morning I get up with a huge headache, a light cough, and still stuffy.

    I called my dr's office. I got a phone consult with a nurse at 11am and then went to get a test done at 315 pm.

    I got my negative results back the next day. A text from both the national testing group as well as a text from my dr's office.

    So even here where our testing is in holding mostly, we're cautiously back to Level one lockdowns, it still took 24 hours to get results. It's going to vary everywhere.

  • Hahnsoo1Hahnsoo1 Make Ready. We Hunt.Registered User regular
    My girlfriend actually works at a Project Baseline COVID-19 testing site in the Bay Area (she floats between Palo Alto, San Jose, Redwood City, etc, depending on the week). It was taking 4-5 days to get results a couple of months ago. Right now, however, she gets tested every week and has her results in less than 48 hours. They switched testing providers to get that time down, if I recall.

    I don’t know what testing is like in other Bay Area testing locations, but I have a front line experience via my girlfriend with the Project Baseline stuff. I can ask her questions if you are curious.

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  • Fuzzy Cumulonimbus CloudFuzzy Cumulonimbus Cloud Registered User regular
    Looks like the cat is out of the bag and we are starting to agree that COVID is definitely an airborne disease.

    https://science.sciencemag.org/content/370/6514/303.2
    There is overwhelming evidence that inhalation of severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) represents a major transmission route for coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19). There is an urgent need to harmonize discussions about modes of virus transmission across disciplines to ensure the most effective control strategies and provide clear and consistent guidance to the public.

    Individuals with COVID-19, many of whom have no symptoms, release thousands of virus-laden aerosols and far fewer droplets when breathing and talking (4–6). Thus, one is far more likely to inhale aerosols than be sprayed by a droplet (7), and so the balance of attention must be shifted to protecting against airborne transmission. In addition to existing mandates of mask-wearing, social distancing, and hygiene efforts, we urge public health officials to add clear guidance about the importance of moving activities outdoors, improving indoor air using ventilation and filtration, and improving protection for high-risk workers (8).

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  • ThirithThirith Registered User regular
    I am currently really mad with my employer. We have the national mandate to fund research, we always talk about evidence-based decisionmaking, we're advocates for science, and the president of our scientific decision-making body, a leading epidemiologist, has been very vocal about how the country needs to take stricter measures because the second wave is well and truly upon us - yet our directors just issued a message on Wednesday saying that they still expect us to be at the office at least 2-3 days each week, because otherwise we risk losing all those informal social contacts. Well, I'm all in favour of those informal social contacts, but not when the numbers are developing like this, not when the government's COVID-19 taskforce very loudly and clearly urges employers to let their staff work from home as much as possible, and definitely not when our directors told us, again and again, from March to June what a fantastic job we were doing while all working from home. And we were doing a fantastic job: we organised two calls for proposals at short notice, within a fifth of the time it usually takes to do those things, we ran the evaluation and did our jobs, all from home.

    And now informal social contacts trump everything? The more I think about it, the more livid I am.

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  • southwicksouthwick Registered User regular
    Biden is going to have very different issues then Trump. Where i think Trump could have gotten some red states to follow guidelines, I think Biden is going to see heavy push back. Trump will be encouraging it to sabotage him.

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  • SniperGuySniperGuy Also known as Dohaeris Registered User regular
    edited October 16
    tbloxham wrote: »
    SniperGuy wrote: »
    tbloxham wrote: »
    SniperGuy wrote: »
    Reading about all the indoor stuff is giving me a whole lot of anxiety. I work at a school that requires masks for everyone inside the building, but classrooms aren't big enough for any sort of distancing, and how much does that even matter when you have 25 kids in a room for 50 minutes at a time? They're all wearing masks, but is that actually going to help enough? Apparently health officials have also said that if one of those kids tests positive, the only people that have to quarantine are that kid and anyone that kid has been in contact with without a mask on.

    And of course, kids have to eat, so during lunch, or fire drills, or waiting outside before school, kids are outside and standing in close groups without masks on. Adults do it too. Only have to wear a mask when you're indoors, so people go outside and have normal conversations without distancing.

    So far we've been doing pretty well. We've had some cases but supposedly they've contact traced and people got it from other places, not from the school. But it sure feels like what we're doing has just been luck so far. I'm sure the mask requirement has helped, but I'd be surprised if it'll keep us safe forever.

    Good things help, but being indoors piles a lot of weight against those good things. Advocate for mask wearing inside and out, for staggered lunchtimes and do all you can to keep windows open. If you can't, or as a bonus, try to get some standing air purifiers units for each classroom. Kids and staff all in masks will help, but you will get leakage and you need a way to clear that out. Ventilation is best, filtration if you can't.

    Also advocate for staff testing, ideally weekly if not more.

    Many classrooms don't even have windows.

    When I have to be in rooms with people, I wear a face shield and bring a fan that I sit behind me to increase air circulation and try to blow stuff away. I am lucky in that my classes are very small and I have very few, so I can properly spread them out when I do have to do it.

    We're following state guidelines, so there's not much else I can get them to do, but I'm sure staying my ass away from people as best as I can. I have my own office and a barrier set up at the door so when people need to talk to me, they do it from 15 feet away with a fan pointed at them.

    I can't exactly afford to buy a zillion N95s. I have some decent cloth masks, but should probably buy some nicer ones at some point.

    I'm really just hoping I don't get it, or I already did and was asymptomatic due to all the mask wearing, and we close down before it becomes too much of an issue, but I doubt this will happen!

    You dont need a zillion n95s. You need ~5, one per day. The whole thing about them being super hard to clean and sterilize isn't relevant for you. Your school is not a hospital. You might at some point have an infected person in the classroom, but, you shouldn't be dealing with continual massive biohazard every day. Most days, the amount of infection on your mask will be zero and just waiting out a few half lives with the mask in a warm dry place will be enough (dry so that bacteria and mold don't grow while its warm)

    Edit - also, not a fan, unless you can have it blow out a window. You want an air purifier with a HEPA filter over in the corner of the room (not near you or anyone else). You need to filter the air, not mix the air inside.

    The ones you can buy for ~$50-100 aren't hospital grade or anything, but, they are going to remove like 30% of the virus load passing through, and they can cycle the air a surprisingly large amount of times per hour.

    Do you have sources on the efficacy of any of this?

    edit: And where does one even buy an n95? Seems like they're all still reserved for medical folks and not lowly teachers like me

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  • MorganVMorganV Registered User regular
    southwick wrote: »
    Biden is going to have very different issues then Trump. Where i think Trump could have gotten some red states to follow guidelines, I think Biden is going to see heavy push back. Trump will be encouraging it to sabotage him.

    Yep. The idea that things will go easier under Biden is wishful thinking. Because Republican Governors and legislatures are absolutely going to be intransigent, and double down on the death cult, purely out of spite. Too many of them don't give a shit about their constituency, they care about sticking it to the "libs", and if the President is a Democrat, they're going to go to the wall.

    Their only play is to make shit so godawful, that people blame both sides, and turn on the sitting President.

    I mean, what are they going to do? Run on their record? Their policies? They don't have any of either of note. They're a party bereft of ideas, with only fear and hate as their platform, and hoping apathy gives them the remainder.

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  • tbloxhamtbloxham Registered User regular
    SniperGuy wrote: »
    tbloxham wrote: »
    SniperGuy wrote: »
    tbloxham wrote: »
    SniperGuy wrote: »
    Reading about all the indoor stuff is giving me a whole lot of anxiety. I work at a school that requires masks for everyone inside the building, but classrooms aren't big enough for any sort of distancing, and how much does that even matter when you have 25 kids in a room for 50 minutes at a time? They're all wearing masks, but is that actually going to help enough? Apparently health officials have also said that if one of those kids tests positive, the only people that have to quarantine are that kid and anyone that kid has been in contact with without a mask on.

    And of course, kids have to eat, so during lunch, or fire drills, or waiting outside before school, kids are outside and standing in close groups without masks on. Adults do it too. Only have to wear a mask when you're indoors, so people go outside and have normal conversations without distancing.

    So far we've been doing pretty well. We've had some cases but supposedly they've contact traced and people got it from other places, not from the school. But it sure feels like what we're doing has just been luck so far. I'm sure the mask requirement has helped, but I'd be surprised if it'll keep us safe forever.

    Good things help, but being indoors piles a lot of weight against those good things. Advocate for mask wearing inside and out, for staggered lunchtimes and do all you can to keep windows open. If you can't, or as a bonus, try to get some standing air purifiers units for each classroom. Kids and staff all in masks will help, but you will get leakage and you need a way to clear that out. Ventilation is best, filtration if you can't.

    Also advocate for staff testing, ideally weekly if not more.

    Many classrooms don't even have windows.

    When I have to be in rooms with people, I wear a face shield and bring a fan that I sit behind me to increase air circulation and try to blow stuff away. I am lucky in that my classes are very small and I have very few, so I can properly spread them out when I do have to do it.

    We're following state guidelines, so there's not much else I can get them to do, but I'm sure staying my ass away from people as best as I can. I have my own office and a barrier set up at the door so when people need to talk to me, they do it from 15 feet away with a fan pointed at them.

    I can't exactly afford to buy a zillion N95s. I have some decent cloth masks, but should probably buy some nicer ones at some point.

    I'm really just hoping I don't get it, or I already did and was asymptomatic due to all the mask wearing, and we close down before it becomes too much of an issue, but I doubt this will happen!

    You dont need a zillion n95s. You need ~5, one per day. The whole thing about them being super hard to clean and sterilize isn't relevant for you. Your school is not a hospital. You might at some point have an infected person in the classroom, but, you shouldn't be dealing with continual massive biohazard every day. Most days, the amount of infection on your mask will be zero and just waiting out a few half lives with the mask in a warm dry place will be enough (dry so that bacteria and mold don't grow while its warm)

    Edit - also, not a fan, unless you can have it blow out a window. You want an air purifier with a HEPA filter over in the corner of the room (not near you or anyone else). You need to filter the air, not mix the air inside.

    The ones you can buy for ~$50-100 aren't hospital grade or anything, but, they are going to remove like 30% of the virus load passing through, and they can cycle the air a surprisingly large amount of times per hour.

    Do you have sources on the efficacy of any of this?

    edit: And where does one even buy an n95? Seems like they're all still reserved for medical folks and not lowly teachers like me

    Buy KN95s

    https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/1791500O/comparison-ffp2-kn95-n95-filtering-facepiece-respirator-classes-tb.pdf

    https://www.amazon.com/COAST-KN95-Face-Individually-Packaged/dp/B08F2XXNCZ

    They probably aren’t quite as good as an N95, but, that’s for a properly fitted N95. With any truly high quality mask the overwhelming weakness in your usage strategy will be poor fit and poor ‘compliance’ by you (ie, taking it off to scratch or having it slip on your face)


    Air cleaners almost certainly work, espescially against aerosolized virus in closed spaces

    https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2020/09/04/908896132/coronavirus-faq-is-it-a-good-idea-to-buy-an-air-cleaner-for-my-home

    On the cleaning masks front, unfortunately I don’t have a link, but, the strategy I’d advise is...

    Buy 5 boxes, Monday to Friday
    Put some dessicant packets in them
    When you get home, put your mask in the days box and close it
    If, by next week, you haven’t heard anything about transmission in the school related to that day, get out the days mask and off you go!
    For additional precautions, you can bake the mask in your oven at 160F for an hour

    https://www.jem-journal.com/article/S0736-4679(20)30369-3/pdf

    The above is a bit of an old source, from back in April, but it details a few good tested methods for mask cleaning. And, of course your level of viral contamination on your mask (even with a sick student) will be vastly below that of a healthcare worker.

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  • PhillisherePhillishere Registered User regular
    SniperGuy wrote: »
    tbloxham wrote: »
    SniperGuy wrote: »
    tbloxham wrote: »
    SniperGuy wrote: »
    Reading about all the indoor stuff is giving me a whole lot of anxiety. I work at a school that requires masks for everyone inside the building, but classrooms aren't big enough for any sort of distancing, and how much does that even matter when you have 25 kids in a room for 50 minutes at a time? They're all wearing masks, but is that actually going to help enough? Apparently health officials have also said that if one of those kids tests positive, the only people that have to quarantine are that kid and anyone that kid has been in contact with without a mask on.

    And of course, kids have to eat, so during lunch, or fire drills, or waiting outside before school, kids are outside and standing in close groups without masks on. Adults do it too. Only have to wear a mask when you're indoors, so people go outside and have normal conversations without distancing.

    So far we've been doing pretty well. We've had some cases but supposedly they've contact traced and people got it from other places, not from the school. But it sure feels like what we're doing has just been luck so far. I'm sure the mask requirement has helped, but I'd be surprised if it'll keep us safe forever.

    Good things help, but being indoors piles a lot of weight against those good things. Advocate for mask wearing inside and out, for staggered lunchtimes and do all you can to keep windows open. If you can't, or as a bonus, try to get some standing air purifiers units for each classroom. Kids and staff all in masks will help, but you will get leakage and you need a way to clear that out. Ventilation is best, filtration if you can't.

    Also advocate for staff testing, ideally weekly if not more.

    Many classrooms don't even have windows.

    When I have to be in rooms with people, I wear a face shield and bring a fan that I sit behind me to increase air circulation and try to blow stuff away. I am lucky in that my classes are very small and I have very few, so I can properly spread them out when I do have to do it.

    We're following state guidelines, so there's not much else I can get them to do, but I'm sure staying my ass away from people as best as I can. I have my own office and a barrier set up at the door so when people need to talk to me, they do it from 15 feet away with a fan pointed at them.

    I can't exactly afford to buy a zillion N95s. I have some decent cloth masks, but should probably buy some nicer ones at some point.

    I'm really just hoping I don't get it, or I already did and was asymptomatic due to all the mask wearing, and we close down before it becomes too much of an issue, but I doubt this will happen!

    You dont need a zillion n95s. You need ~5, one per day. The whole thing about them being super hard to clean and sterilize isn't relevant for you. Your school is not a hospital. You might at some point have an infected person in the classroom, but, you shouldn't be dealing with continual massive biohazard every day. Most days, the amount of infection on your mask will be zero and just waiting out a few half lives with the mask in a warm dry place will be enough (dry so that bacteria and mold don't grow while its warm)

    Edit - also, not a fan, unless you can have it blow out a window. You want an air purifier with a HEPA filter over in the corner of the room (not near you or anyone else). You need to filter the air, not mix the air inside.

    The ones you can buy for ~$50-100 aren't hospital grade or anything, but, they are going to remove like 30% of the virus load passing through, and they can cycle the air a surprisingly large amount of times per hour.

    Do you have sources on the efficacy of any of this?

    edit: And where does one even buy an n95? Seems like they're all still reserved for medical folks and not lowly teachers like me

    I got one from here last month:

    https://envomask.com/

    dispatch.o
  • OrcaOrca Registered User regular
    Looks like the cat is out of the bag and we are starting to agree that COVID is definitely an airborne disease.

    https://science.sciencemag.org/content/370/6514/303.2
    There is overwhelming evidence that inhalation of severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) represents a major transmission route for coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19). There is an urgent need to harmonize discussions about modes of virus transmission across disciplines to ensure the most effective control strategies and provide clear and consistent guidance to the public.

    Individuals with COVID-19, many of whom have no symptoms, release thousands of virus-laden aerosols and far fewer droplets when breathing and talking (4–6). Thus, one is far more likely to inhale aerosols than be sprayed by a droplet (7), and so the balance of attention must be shifted to protecting against airborne transmission. In addition to existing mandates of mask-wearing, social distancing, and hygiene efforts, we urge public health officials to add clear guidance about the importance of moving activities outdoors, improving indoor air using ventilation and filtration, and improving protection for high-risk workers (8).

    Well that's about 6 months too late.

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  • TastyfishTastyfish Registered User regular
    Thirith wrote: »
    I am currently really mad with my employer. We have the national mandate to fund research, we always talk about evidence-based decisionmaking, we're advocates for science, and the president of our scientific decision-making body, a leading epidemiologist, has been very vocal about how the country needs to take stricter measures because the second wave is well and truly upon us - yet our directors just issued a message on Wednesday saying that they still expect us to be at the office at least 2-3 days each week, because otherwise we risk losing all those informal social contacts. Well, I'm all in favour of those informal social contacts, but not when the numbers are developing like this, not when the government's COVID-19 taskforce very loudly and clearly urges employers to let their staff work from home as much as possible, and definitely not when our directors told us, again and again, from March to June what a fantastic job we were doing while all working from home. And we were doing a fantastic job: we organised two calls for proposals at short notice, within a fifth of the time it usually takes to do those things, we ran the evaluation and did our jobs, all from home.

    And now informal social contacts trump everything? The more I think about it, the more livid I am.

    At our work we have scheduled one 15min chat a week with someone else picked randomly out of the 80-something people who work here. It's gone down pretty well so far, and might be worth a suggestion as a way of maintaining some social connection whilst still working from home.

  • Fuzzy Cumulonimbus CloudFuzzy Cumulonimbus Cloud Registered User regular
    Orca wrote: »
    Looks like the cat is out of the bag and we are starting to agree that COVID is definitely an airborne disease.

    https://science.sciencemag.org/content/370/6514/303.2
    There is overwhelming evidence that inhalation of severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) represents a major transmission route for coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19). There is an urgent need to harmonize discussions about modes of virus transmission across disciplines to ensure the most effective control strategies and provide clear and consistent guidance to the public.

    Individuals with COVID-19, many of whom have no symptoms, release thousands of virus-laden aerosols and far fewer droplets when breathing and talking (4–6). Thus, one is far more likely to inhale aerosols than be sprayed by a droplet (7), and so the balance of attention must be shifted to protecting against airborne transmission. In addition to existing mandates of mask-wearing, social distancing, and hygiene efforts, we urge public health officials to add clear guidance about the importance of moving activities outdoors, improving indoor air using ventilation and filtration, and improving protection for high-risk workers (8).

    Well that's about 6 months too late.
    Sorry that understanding a novel virus isn't as fast as you wanted. ):

    no no no no noo no no no no no
  • VishNubVishNub Registered User regular
    edited October 16
    it’s good to know but it doesn’t really change best practice meaningfully.

    “Outside, masks, ventilation”, has always been my understanding at least of the recommendations. The only thing that has changed is a deemphasis on surfaces as a mode of transmission.

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  • ThirithThirith Registered User regular
    Tastyfish wrote: »
    Thirith wrote: »
    I am currently really mad with my employer. We have the national mandate to fund research, we always talk about evidence-based decisionmaking, we're advocates for science, and the president of our scientific decision-making body, a leading epidemiologist, has been very vocal about how the country needs to take stricter measures because the second wave is well and truly upon us - yet our directors just issued a message on Wednesday saying that they still expect us to be at the office at least 2-3 days each week, because otherwise we risk losing all those informal social contacts. Well, I'm all in favour of those informal social contacts, but not when the numbers are developing like this, not when the government's COVID-19 taskforce very loudly and clearly urges employers to let their staff work from home as much as possible, and definitely not when our directors told us, again and again, from March to June what a fantastic job we were doing while all working from home. And we were doing a fantastic job: we organised two calls for proposals at short notice, within a fifth of the time it usually takes to do those things, we ran the evaluation and did our jobs, all from home.

    And now informal social contacts trump everything? The more I think about it, the more livid I am.

    At our work we have scheduled one 15min chat a week with someone else picked randomly out of the 80-something people who work here. It's gone down pretty well so far, and might be worth a suggestion as a way of maintaining some social connection whilst still working from home.
    Honestly, I think the whole "informal social contacts" thing that we were told is a smokescreen. I'm pretty certain that the main issue is a lack of trust and a fear of losing control. When they're asked about more detail on their decision, they clam up completely. It's depressing: at the beginning of the pandemic, they reacted fast and proactively, but then things changed completely in summer, and now I pretty much think they're full of shit.

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  • kaidkaid Registered User regular
    southwick wrote: »
    Biden is going to have very different issues then Trump. Where i think Trump could have gotten some red states to follow guidelines, I think Biden is going to see heavy push back. Trump will be encouraging it to sabotage him.

    This is my big fear even if biden wins the MURRICA forces are already so mobilized that a lot of states are still not going to do sensible things because Trump made it political to do so. Just look at wisconsin in the middle of our worst bout of this and the GOP still is throwing a fit over doing the least amount of effort to try to mitigate this.

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  • Redcoat-13Redcoat-13 Registered User regular
    I came pretty close to losing my temper in a serious way.

    I'm walking back to my office (I work for a council in the UK) and I spot a guy who is running up to people and talking to them. When I say people, I actually mean, young female students. It is pretty obvious that none of them want anything to do with them, because they either sped up, tried to distance themselves, or cross the road.

    He eventually clocked me walking behind and so he approached me, at which point he proceeded to tell me that nobody died of Covid. All those people who have died? They were going to die anyway. All those people in homes? Yup, they had health issues anyway. All those people were on ventilators anyway.

    "But why were they on ventilators?" I asked. "How can you explain the excess deaths?" I queried. "What is your source for all of this you are telling me" so that I could be better educated.

    He couldn't answer any of that. It's bosses (I pressed and asked what bosses but he said I was just a yes man) that are telling the authorities to mark all deaths as Covid related. I get all my information from the BBC apparently!

    I almost completely lost it when he said "they were going to die anyway" and I've been fortunate to not to lose anyone to Covid yet.

    I guess the happy ending is that he asked me to stop talking to him. Must have been all those questions!

    I'm still wound up about it even now.

    PSN Fleety2009
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  • CelestialBadgerCelestialBadger Registered User regular
    Sounds like one of Great Britain’s finest loonies. I can see why the women hustled to get away from him.

    JaysonFour
  • MorganVMorganV Registered User regular
    Redcoat-13 wrote: »
    I came pretty close to losing my temper in a serious way.

    I'm walking back to my office (I work for a council in the UK) and I spot a guy who is running up to people and talking to them. When I say people, I actually mean, young female students. It is pretty obvious that none of them want anything to do with them, because they either sped up, tried to distance themselves, or cross the road.

    He eventually clocked me walking behind and so he approached me, at which point he proceeded to tell me that nobody died of Covid. All those people who have died? They were going to die anyway. All those people in homes? Yup, they had health issues anyway. All those people were on ventilators anyway.

    "But why were they on ventilators?" I asked. "How can you explain the excess deaths?" I queried. "What is your source for all of this you are telling me" so that I could be better educated.

    He couldn't answer any of that. It's bosses (I pressed and asked what bosses but he said I was just a yes man) that are telling the authorities to mark all deaths as Covid related. I get all my information from the BBC apparently!

    I almost completely lost it when he said "they were going to die anyway" and I've been fortunate to not to lose anyone to Covid yet.

    I guess the happy ending is that he asked me to stop talking to him. Must have been all those questions!

    I'm still wound up about it even now.

    Had similar arguments. Granted, not quite so dense an opponent.

    Easiest response is the same as I use for most conspiracy theorists. What's in it for them, the people on the ground, doing this? Not the puppetmasters at the top, clearly they want "the power", and no argument will convince the theorist otherwise. I'm talking about the thousands, if not tens/hundreds of thousands of people that need to be actively complicit in this. All of the doctors, nurses, coroners and funeral directors. It's not like they're not already overworked (and often underpaid for that work). Why are they all participants in this grand design?

    I've used it for flat earth*, moon landing, and 9/11 arguments, as well as Covid. You want to sell me on a conspiracy? It needs to require no more than a few dozen people being actively complicit. Else, you're just wasting my time. Granted, I've yet to persuade any of them, because the mindset of a conspiracy theorist sees absence of proof as proof, but you do see that little glimmer in their eyes as they try and string the arguments against, fail, and resort to some lame response.

    * Easily the most stupid fucking conspiracy theory I've ever dealt with in real life.

    ForarGnome-Interruptus
  • ShivahnShivahn Unaware of her barrel shifter privilege Western coastal temptressRegistered User regular
    VishNub wrote: »
    it’s good to know but it doesn’t really change best practice meaningfully.

    “Outside, masks, ventilation”, has always been my understanding at least of the recommendations. The only thing that has changed is a deemphasis on surfaces as a mode of transmission.

    Public Health Canada still lists surfaces as one of the most common modes of infection, which is very >: (

    Gnome-InterruptusCello
  • HenroidHenroid Wear your damn plague masks! Registered User regular
    JUST ANNOUNCED: We have finalized a partnership with CVSHealth and Walgreens to deliver the Coronavirus vaccine, when approved, directly to nursing homes—at no cost to seniors!
    Anyway see you guys in a year or two when health problems from the rushed vaccine come about and admin officials decline to take responsibility and push all liability onto CVS and Walgreens. Who, by the way, absolutely deserve it because they're partnering with the actual devil.

    Nobody likes me but that's okay. I'm used to it.
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  • HenroidHenroid Wear your damn plague masks! Registered User regular
    tbloxham wrote: »
    tbloxham wrote: »
    Well damn.

    Gotta wonder how California is dropping the ball this hard. Though it does partly explain why our numbers keep going up and up and up, and our ICU space keeps going down and down and down...

    Do you live in a different California? Because, thats literally not happening. It could start happening tomorrow to be sure, but there's literally zero available data anywhere which indicates anything like what you are saying here.

    Hospitalizations in California are at their lowest levels since April 13th. ICU numbers the same. Where is your data coming from?

    www.covid.ca.gov

    Our test numbers are lower than they should be, but trending the right way. Positivity is still falling. Deaths are falling.

    My mother got a COVID test through Kaiser in the SF Bay Area. It took a week to get results.

    I've taken three through my workplace. They each took five days.

    My county has had rising numbers with an Reff > 1 for the past month. Our ICU has less than 5 beds available at the moment, according to the tracker.

    But hey, thanks for telling me that's not happening. Great to know.

    You didn't say, "The county where I live", you said, "California". And no, what you describe is not happening in California. You are presenting your local experience which does not reflect statewide norms as indicative of statewide norms, when it is not.

    https://covid19.ca.gov/state-dashboard/
    MrMonroe wrote: »
    I also don't know what county you live in but it doesn't really reflect "the Bay Area" either. Alameda, SF, and Marin counties all appear fairly stable in terms of new cases and bed capacity for the last couple months. Obviously higher than 0 is bad but it's not like things are actively getting worse. Obviously single observations do not data make, but my wife's Kaiser-supplied test two weeks ago took <24 hours to get results back. :shrug:

    Hey guys, when people are having bad personal experiences with something like a pandemic, the last thing they want to hear is, "Well actually that's good because throughout the whole state," etc.

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  • JaysonFourJaysonFour Classy Monster Kitteh Registered User regular
    A.K.A. "Hey, guess what? Grandma and Grandpa get to be the beta testers to whatever shit we slap an 'approved' sticker on! Hope you weren't too attached!"

    steam_sig.png
    TicaldfjamCommander ZoomHahnsoo1SleepMrVyngaardElvenshaenever die
  • TaramoorTaramoor Storyteller Registered User regular
    tbloxham wrote: »
    Gilgaron wrote: »
    Mayabird wrote: »
    Not posting this in updates because it's a different coronavirus, but a different strain that jumped from bats into Chinese pigs in 2016 can also replicate in human cells. Swine acute diarrhea syndrome coronavirus (SADS-CoV) hasn't jumped to humans (yet...) but pigs to humans are a very common vector for a lot of diseases already. This one we have warning about that it could jump to humans, but now I wonder how many more of these viruses are already circulating in factory-farmed livestock, just waiting for the right mutation.

    The most dramatic swine-human diseases tend to be from reassortment, like with flu. So you'd have, say, a pig with SADS, a handler with SARS2 and they mix up in either host, and you get a brand new virus. Keeping an eye out for this sort of thing is why pulling scientific surveillance and cooperation from China is a mistake.

    Great, you made me imagine a virus that wrecks the circulatory system while uncontrollably shitting oneself.

    Because that’s the image I needed in 2020.

    We already have that virus, it's called Ebola.

    The odd thing about Viruses is that it's very hard to be infinitely nasty. You add more symptoms and ways to get sick, then people notice and you can't infect them so easily.

    This is why it's important to not add coughing as a symptom until you've reached at least a 40-50% infection rate, because then Madagascar won’t be able to lock down.
    Henroid wrote: »
    JUST ANNOUNCED: We have finalized a partnership with CVSHealth and Walgreens to deliver the Coronavirus vaccine, when approved, directly to nursing homes—at no cost to seniors!
    Anyway see you guys in a year or two when health problems from the rushed vaccine come about and admin officials decline to take responsibility and push all liability onto CVS and Walgreens. Who, by the way, absolutely deserve it because they're partnering with the actual devil.

    50/50 CVS and Walgreens didn’t know this was happening before he announced it.

    nUzGRMY.gif
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  • HenroidHenroid Wear your damn plague masks! Registered User regular
    JaysonFour wrote: »
    A.K.A. "Hey, guess what? Grandma and Grandpa get to be the beta testers to whatever shit we slap an 'approved' sticker on! Hope you weren't too attached!"
    Remember when quarantine started the Republicans were all, "look we're just going to have to sacrifice our elderly for the sake of the economy"? People refused to do so, so now the administration is doing it for them.

    Nobody likes me but that's okay. I'm used to it.
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  • StarZapperStarZapper Vermont, Bizzaro world.Registered User regular
    Taramoor wrote: »
    tbloxham wrote: »
    Gilgaron wrote: »
    Mayabird wrote: »
    Not posting this in updates because it's a different coronavirus, but a different strain that jumped from bats into Chinese pigs in 2016 can also replicate in human cells. Swine acute diarrhea syndrome coronavirus (SADS-CoV) hasn't jumped to humans (yet...) but pigs to humans are a very common vector for a lot of diseases already. This one we have warning about that it could jump to humans, but now I wonder how many more of these viruses are already circulating in factory-farmed livestock, just waiting for the right mutation.

    The most dramatic swine-human diseases tend to be from reassortment, like with flu. So you'd have, say, a pig with SADS, a handler with SARS2 and they mix up in either host, and you get a brand new virus. Keeping an eye out for this sort of thing is why pulling scientific surveillance and cooperation from China is a mistake.

    Great, you made me imagine a virus that wrecks the circulatory system while uncontrollably shitting oneself.

    Because that’s the image I needed in 2020.

    We already have that virus, it's called Ebola.

    The odd thing about Viruses is that it's very hard to be infinitely nasty. You add more symptoms and ways to get sick, then people notice and you can't infect them so easily.

    This is why it's important to not add coughing as a symptom until you've reached at least a 40-50% infection rate, because then Madagascar won’t be able to lock down.
    Henroid wrote: »
    JUST ANNOUNCED: We have finalized a partnership with CVSHealth and Walgreens to deliver the Coronavirus vaccine, when approved, directly to nursing homes—at no cost to seniors!
    Anyway see you guys in a year or two when health problems from the rushed vaccine come about and admin officials decline to take responsibility and push all liability onto CVS and Walgreens. Who, by the way, absolutely deserve it because they're partnering with the actual devil.

    50/50 CVS and Walgreens didn’t know this was happening before he announced it.

    10/10 There are already seniors probably walking through the doors unmasked, going "here I am, give me the vaccine!" and getting angry when told there isn't one yet.

    FencingsaxAbsoluteZeroJaysonFourCommander ZoompainfulPleasanceHahnsoo1shryke
  • HenroidHenroid Wear your damn plague masks! Registered User regular
    Taramoor wrote: »
    Henroid wrote: »
    JUST ANNOUNCED: We have finalized a partnership with CVSHealth and Walgreens to deliver the Coronavirus vaccine, when approved, directly to nursing homes—at no cost to seniors!
    Anyway see you guys in a year or two when health problems from the rushed vaccine come about and admin officials decline to take responsibility and push all liability onto CVS and Walgreens. Who, by the way, absolutely deserve it because they're partnering with the actual devil.

    50/50 CVS and Walgreens didn’t know this was happening before he announced it.
    Oh god I didn't consider this might be a possibility. I'll buy you an on-sale Steam game if it turns out to be the case for either of them.

    Nobody likes me but that's okay. I'm used to it.
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  • notyanotya Registered User regular
    Ah CVS, the place I got my first coronavirus test and got the results in a speedy 9 days. Great.

  • tbloxhamtbloxham Registered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    JUST ANNOUNCED: We have finalized a partnership with CVSHealth and Walgreens to deliver the Coronavirus vaccine, when approved, directly to nursing homes—at no cost to seniors!
    Anyway see you guys in a year or two when health problems from the rushed vaccine come about and admin officials decline to take responsibility and push all liability onto CVS and Walgreens. Who, by the way, absolutely deserve it because they're partnering with the actual devil.

    This is an announcement of a routine already existing vaccine delivery program. It's just a negotiated extension of the flu vaccine program for seniors which already exists through both those companies. Its the literal definition of a null story. Vaccines are already fully covered by Medicare and Medicaid etc. So there's nothing new here.

    "That is cool" - Abraham Lincoln
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  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    Seriously we have Medicare that covers vaccines

    Phoenix-DHahnsoo1
  • TaramoorTaramoor Storyteller Registered User regular
    MorganV wrote: »
    southwick wrote: »
    Biden is going to have very different issues then Trump. Where i think Trump could have gotten some red states to follow guidelines, I think Biden is going to see heavy push back. Trump will be encouraging it to sabotage him.

    Yep. The idea that things will go easier under Biden is wishful thinking. Because Republican Governors and legislatures are absolutely going to be intransigent, and double down on the death cult, purely out of spite. Too many of them don't give a shit about their constituency, they care about sticking it to the "libs", and if the President is a Democrat, they're going to go to the wall.

    Their only play is to make shit so godawful, that people blame both sides, and turn on the sitting President.

    I mean, what are they going to do? Run on their record? Their policies? They don't have any of either of note. They're a party bereft of ideas, with only fear and hate as their platform, and hoping apathy gives them the remainder.

    Unless they start hosting indoor sneezing and spitting on each other competitions they can’t do a whole lot worse than they already are, but just having government assistance and acknowledgement of the problem will go a long way toward helping those states that are actually trying.

    Having a DOJ that isn’t working solely to protect the President’s business interests will also help.

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  • HenroidHenroid Wear your damn plague masks! Registered User regular
    tbloxham wrote: »
    Henroid wrote: »
    JUST ANNOUNCED: We have finalized a partnership with CVSHealth and Walgreens to deliver the Coronavirus vaccine, when approved, directly to nursing homes—at no cost to seniors!
    Anyway see you guys in a year or two when health problems from the rushed vaccine come about and admin officials decline to take responsibility and push all liability onto CVS and Walgreens. Who, by the way, absolutely deserve it because they're partnering with the actual devil.

    This is an announcement of a routine already existing vaccine delivery program. It's just a negotiated extension of the flu vaccine program for seniors which already exists through both those companies. Its the literal definition of a null story. Vaccines are already fully covered by Medicare and Medicaid etc. So there's nothing new here.
    Next you're going to tell me it's something the Obama administration setup and Trump is taking credit for it.

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  • JeanJean Papa bear Gatineau, QuébecRegistered User regular
    I'm rather annoyed at my mother in law right now.

    She's not a straight up denier, she's not anti mask or anything like that but she do think COVID is overblown. Always looking for loopholes to not follow the rules. Our arguments are getting worse now than we're in a red zone and thus no visitor allowed.

    She doesn't want to accept than no visit means no visit. I'm not putting my familly at risk to please you, woman. (to be fair to my MIL, she's in Ontario where the rules concerning private gatherings are less severe than in Québec, where I am located.)

    Sucks than sticking up to my principles is deteroriating my relationship with my MIL. So long as it doesn't affect my marriage, i'm alright with paying that price tough.

    My wife is kinda in the middle in all of this.. she understand than I want to protect our familly from COVID but she do want to see her mother as well.

    "You won't destroy us, You won't destroy our democracy. We are a small but proud nation. No one can bomb us to silence. No one can scare us from being Norway. This evening and tonight, we'll take care of each other. That's what we do best when attacked'' - Jens Stoltenberg
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  • Phoenix-DPhoenix-D Registered User regular
    https://kutv.com/news/coronavirus/hospital-icu-now-over-capacity-in-unsustainable-coronavirus-spike
    SALT LAKE CITY (AP) — One of Utah's largest hospitals had no beds left Friday in its regular intensive-care unit as the governor declared the state's weekslong spike in coronavirus cases unsustainable.

    The chief medical officer at University of Utah says the hospital had to set up extra ICU beds staffed by doctors and nurses working overtime to care for its critical patients this week as the unit hit 104% capacity.

    It's almost like starting restrictions only as the exponential spike is stabbing you is a BAD IDEA. Who knew?

    PreacherHahnsoo1FencingsaxJragghenIncenjucarMorganVautono-wally, erotibot300Milltynic
  • I ZimbraI Zimbra Colorful Extrovert Registered User regular
    One arrested in threat to kidnap and kill Wichita mayor over COVID-19 mask mandate
    A Wichita man has been arrested on suspicion of threatening to kidnap and kill Wichita Mayor Brandon Whipple over frustrations with city’s mask ordinance, the mayor said Friday afternoon.

    Meredith Dowty, 59, was booked into Sedgwick County Jail at 6:05 p.m., Friday, booking reports show. Police confirmed he is the suspect and said he could face a charge of criminal threat.

    Whipple said he had been read a series of text messages received by another city official that asked about Whipple’s address and contained a detailed threat against his life.

    The apparent motive was the suspect’s opposition to “masks and tyranny,” Whipple said.

    “He said he was going to kidnap me and slash my throat and he needed my address because I needed to see the hangman — me and everyone who, something about tyranny,” Whipple said.

    My hometown continues to show its ass

    shrykeNetscape
This discussion has been closed.