Everybody knowing what happened isnt the same as everyone hearing testimony from terrified staffers.
Which would change absolutely nothing. The folks who would hear it (congress and voter both) have already seen video, audio, transcripts....its clear as fucking day.
What world do you live on that you think these people would be impacted by it at all?
The gop was never going to do anything to Trump, this should've been extremely clear to any Democrat involved. So the impeachment should've been used to away public opinion, to really drive the point home what happened. Bombard them with the impact of their fascism.
If this wasn't the plan all along, what was?
Either a blue eyed hope that they might really convince enough republicans, which I don't believe for a second, or just an attempt to go through the motions and return to the status quo as quickly as possible.
People keep demanding us to have faith in a party that willingly, willingly works with a cadre of neoconfederate fascists, are personal friends with them, and fails to push forward on the most basic fucking aspects of pressing a case.
Why the fuck should we be happy with the democrats? Why should we believe they’ll protect us from the efforts of the GOP to turn this country into a fascist state?
At what point are we allowed to call theatre for what it is without being told we’re being hyperbolic, without being told we’re idiots, without being told we just don’t understand parliamentary procedure? Without getting a smug sense of superiority spat in our faces as people are suffering and dying around the country from the machinations, apathy and cruelties of the GOP and the Democrats always stop short of making meaningful help?
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Shortytouching the meatIntergalactic Cool CourtRegistered Userregular
I think it's weird to look at anything democrats have accomplished recently and say "yes a functional, pragmatic evaluation of this suggests that they're doing a good job"
People in here saying the impeachment vote was the only thing that matter are missing the point hard. The vote was not what mattered, it was never even in play. It was always going to be lost, and bragging about not losing as badly as expected is laughable.
The TRIAL was the point. The evidence, the witnesses, the recounting of events. The fight was for public opinion, not for the vote (which, again, was never even in play). Republicans were never worried about Trump getting impeached, they were worried about what the path to acquittal would cost them in the public realm and in future elections.
It turns out, it costs them nothing, because Democrats lost the trial. And they lost it of their own free will. They made themselves lose it on purpose. Republicans came in with an incompetent personal-injury lawyer who wasted everyone's time playing a meaningless clip show, and the Democrats reacted by running away with their tail between their legs.
In the court of public opinion, this is a massive, definitive, unambiguous win for the GOP and vindication for Trump, and a condemnation of Democrats for wasting time with partisan impeachment games. And Democrats did it to themselves.
Anyway, I hope those 7 votes and warm feeling from being "growups who moved on to the real issue" will comfort you while you watch Trump's second inauguration in January 2025. Not hyperbole, this is how bad a loss this is for Democrats.
People keep demanding us to have faith in a party that willingly, willingly works with a cadre of neoconfederate fascists, are personal friends with them, and fails to push forward on the most basic fucking aspects of pressing a case.
The Democrats don't seem to be personally very friendly with the GOP right now. They seem actually pretty pissed off that the GOP tried to have them killed. They voted 100% in favor of impeachment in both houses and there seems to be a lot of frostiness in the dialog between them available to the public (eg AOC rebuffing Cruz on an issue they were both interested in.)
A month ago we thought there would be one, maybe 2 republican votes to convinct.
Three days ago we thought maybe 6 at most. We got 7. That's not nothing.
This kind of first down mentality is completely lost on me.
NONE OF THIS MATTERS IF THE CURRENTLY ELECTED DEMOCRATS KEEP TELLING US TO WAIT FOR JUSTICE.
When does it end? I've been voting straight Democrat for nineteen years and donating money for races for ten.
And the DNC does NOTHING! LESS THAN NOTHING.
Why should I even bother anymore?
Fuck the democratic party
Nobody is telling you wait for justice though?
We have been saying doing the right thing matters even if its futile, and impeachment was almost certainly futile.
You were never going to make a stronger case than was made with the videos and presentations, and all witnesses would do is drag it out and water down the message and give the GOP time to spin a counter narrative.
The only witness that might have mattered was Trump and more so he would perjure himself. And still the Democratic Caucus voted as a bloc across the board.
And you were always gonna get smug bad faith from the GOP at the end of this. But again sometimes doing the right thing matters.
Everybody knowing what happened isnt the same as everyone hearing testimony from terrified staffers.
Which would change absolutely nothing. The folks who would hear it (congress and voter both) have already seen video, audio, transcripts....its clear as fucking day.
What world do you live on that you think these people would be impacted by it at all?
We cant keep complaining about media narrative on this board if the game isnt even going to be played.
My point is playing the fucking media narrative game is a losing proposition at this point that will change nothing and convince no one. Reminding folks what actual government looks like and making THAT the choice? That's something different.
I think it's weird to look at anything democrats have accomplished recently and say "yes a functional, pragmatic evaluation of this suggests that they're doing a good job"
this statement is evergreen and has been for decades
Alright seriously fucks, some of you'll need to chill and take a break. I mean for fucks sake, your seriously implying that you're willing to sit out elections because the expected out come happened. That you're willing to make it easier for the GOP to fuck people over on things like immigration, labor, women's rights, voting rights, climate change, police brutality and a shit ton o other things because the democrats didn't call in witnesses against Trump. Like seriously?
1. We are absolutely not going to pass a new a John Lewis VRA or whatever because we don't have enough Democrats who would vote for it anyway.
1a. Joe Manchin is not or has ever been a fucking Democrat.
2. Now that the Democrats have shown they won't actually force anything damaging to the Republican Party (even at the risk of something damaging to their own) we will not see any kind of act on the Filibuster.
3. Absolutely no COVID relief that in any way represents what 2020 Democrats ran their campaigns on.
4. Schumer continues to cede leadership and power to McConnel at every term as to not endanger "weak Senate Democrats" for reelection as if it fucking matters if you lose 52 to 48 or 56 to 44.
The Democratic Party are a bunch of goddamn fucking cowards.
5. Republicans take both the senate and house in 2022 because Democrats didn't actually attempt to fulfill any of their 2020 promises.
A month ago we thought there would be one, maybe 2 republican votes to convinct.
Three days ago we thought maybe 6 at most. We got 7. That's not nothing.
This kind of first down mentality is completely lost on me.
NONE OF THIS MATTERS IF THE CURRENTLY ELECTED DEMOCRATS KEEP TELLING US TO WAIT FOR JUSTICE.
When does it end? I've been voting straight Democrat for nineteen years and donating money for races for ten.
And the DNC does NOTHING! LESS THAN NOTHING.
Why should I even bother anymore?
Fuck the democratic party
Nobody is telling you wait for justice though?
We have been saying doing the right thing matters even if its futile, and impeachment was almost certainly futile.
You were never going to make a stronger case than was made with the videos and presentations, and all witnesses would do is drag it out and water down the message and give the GOP time to spin a counter narrative.
The only witness that might have mattered was Trump and more so he would perjure himself. And still the Democratic Caucus voted as a bloc across the board.
And you were always gonna get smug bad faith from the GOP at the end of this. But again sometimes doing the right thing matters.
But they didn’t do the right thing.
They played at it, and then when it came to doing a fundamental aspect of the right thing in this case, went “uuuuuh... yeah, ‘bout that.... no.”
People keep demanding us to have faith in a party that willingly, willingly works with a cadre of neoconfederate fascists, are personal friends with them, and fails to push forward on the most basic fucking aspects of pressing a case.
The Democrats don't seem to be personally very friendly with the GOP right now. They seem actually pretty pissed off that the GOP tried to have them killed. They voted 100% in favor of impeachment in both houses and there seems to be a lot of frostiness in the dialog between them available to the public (eg AOC rebuffing Cruz on an issue they were both interested in.)
[waves generally at the congress thread’s endless argument about the filibuster, which is a thing precisely because enough members of the party believe they can still work with the neoconfederate fascists and value their input on legislation and hte legislative process, despite everything you just mentioned]
Everybody knowing what happened isnt the same as everyone hearing testimony from terrified staffers.
Which would change absolutely nothing. The folks who would hear it (congress and voter both) have already seen video, audio, transcripts....its clear as fucking day.
What world do you live on that you think these people would be impacted by it at all?
The gop was never going to do anything to Trump, this should've been extremely clear to any Democrat involved. So the impeachment should've been used to away public opinion, to really drive the point home what happened. Bombard them with the impact of their fascism.
If this wasn't the plan all along, what was?
Either a blue eyed hope that they might really convince enough republicans, which I don't believe for a second, or just an attempt to go through the motions and return to the status quo as quickly as possible.
It was either deliberate, or criminally stupid.
Neither reading is good
I'm imagining the idea was to produce a quick, compelling case, vote quickly and have most people be like "oh dang, Trump totally should have been convicted", but move on as soon as possible to avoid people associating them with a lost vote.
Could be something else though, there are a lot of individual people who may have had very different concerns in the Senate, and I'm betting any one of them could veto basically any plan of action.
I would genuinely, non-confrontationally like to know what the Democrats felt their goal going into this trial was, and whether they feel like they accomplished it. Because I would say that presently it does not feel like there was one, and this was primarily procedural.
Fuck all these people. They are not worth your time. They do not deserve your money.
I didn’t think my heart could sink any deeper but yep, that did it. That did it.
These fucking selfish ghouls. Invested with the power of the state on behalf of citizens around the country, and they need to get home for a date night.
Alright seriously fucks, some of you'll need to chill and take a break. I mean for fucks sake, your seriously implying that you're willing to sit out elections because the expected out come happened. That you're willing to make it easier for the GOP to fuck people over on things like immigration, labor, women's rights, voting rights, climate change, police brutality and a shit ton o other things because the democrats didn't call in witnesses against Trump. Like seriously?
The Democrat party in its current form will not be able to stop the fascists. It needs to fundamentally change, or be replaced.
As a comparison, it feels like they're appeasing, but unlike the brits before ww2, they're not doing anything to prepare to fight the fascists. They're just clinging to procedure while the country is burned down under them.
People in here saying the impeachment vote was the only thing that matter are missing the point hard. The vote was not what mattered, it was never even in play. It was always going to be lost, and bragging about not losing as badly as expected is laughable.
The TRIAL was the point. The evidence, the witnesses, the recounting of events. The fight was for public opinion, not for the vote (which, again, was never even in play). Republicans were never worried about Trump getting impeached, they were worried about what the path to acquittal would cost them in the public realm and in future elections.
It turns out, it costs them nothing, because Democrats lost the trial. And they lost it of their own free will. They made themselves lose it on purpose. Republicans came in with an incompetent personal-injury lawyer who wasted everyone's time playing a meaningless clip show, and the Democrats reacted by running away with their tail between their legs.
In the court of public opinion, this is a massive, definitive, unambiguous win for the GOP and vindication for Trump, and a condemnation of Democrats for wasting time with partisan impeachment games. And Democrats did it to themselves.
Anyway, I hope those 7 votes and warm feeling from being "growups who moved on to the real issue" will comfort you while you watch Trump's second inauguration in January 2025. Not hyperbole, this is how bad a loss this is for Democrats.
This, this right here.
This is why we lose. All the damn time.
Because one side can take a breath, make a calculation, and take the most effective step to accomplish their (shitty, fucked up) goal in unison. Doubt it? Look at judicial appointments Obama v Trump.
Meanwhile, our side says and thinks things like this and engages in a circular firing squad 24/7.
You folks are doing exactly what they hope you'll do. Stop focusing on the cheeto that you can't do anything to anyway, and start focusing on WINNING THE ARGUMENT. Which you do by governing effectively and solving the five billion problems the last administration caused.
People in here saying the impeachment vote was the only thing that matter are missing the point hard. The vote was not what mattered, it was never even in play. It was always going to be lost, and bragging about not losing as badly as expected is laughable.
The TRIAL was the point. The evidence, the witnesses, the recounting of events. The fight was for public opinion, not for the vote (which, again, was never even in play). Republicans were never worried about Trump getting impeached, they were worried about what the path to acquittal would cost them in the public realm and in future elections.
It turns out, it costs them nothing, because Democrats lost the trial. And they lost it of their own free will. They made themselves lose it on purpose. Republicans came in with an incompetent personal-injury lawyer who wasted everyone's time playing a meaningless clip show, and the Democrats reacted by running away with their tail between their legs.
In the court of public opinion, this is a massive, definitive, unambiguous win for the GOP and vindication for Trump, and a condemnation of Democrats for wasting time with partisan impeachment games. And Democrats did it to themselves.
Anyway, I hope those 7 votes and warm feeling from being "growups who moved on to the real issue" will comfort you while you watch Trump's second inauguration in January 2025. Not hyperbole, this is how bad a loss this is for Democrats.
This, this right here.
This is why we lose. All the damn time.
Because one side can take a breath, make a calculation, and take the most effective step to accomplish their (shitty, fucked up) goal in unison. Doubt it? Look at judicial appointments Obama v Trump.
Meanwhile, our side says and thinks things like this and engages in a circular firing squad 24/7.
You folks are doing exactly what they hope you'll do. Stop focusing on the cheeto that you can't do anything to anyway, and start focusing on WINNING THE ARGUMENT. Which you do by governing effectively and solving the five billion problems the last administration caused.
this trial was not a demonstration of effective governing
Everybody knowing what happened isnt the same as everyone hearing testimony from terrified staffers.
Which would change absolutely nothing. The folks who would hear it (congress and voter both) have already seen video, audio, transcripts....its clear as fucking day.
What world do you live on that you think these people would be impacted by it at all?
The gop was never going to do anything to Trump, this should've been extremely clear to any Democrat involved. So the impeachment should've been used to away public opinion, to really drive the point home what happened. Bombard them with the impact of their fascism.
If this wasn't the plan all along, what was?
Either a blue eyed hope that they might really convince enough republicans, which I don't believe for a second, or just an attempt to go through the motions and return to the status quo as quickly as possible.
It was either deliberate, or criminally stupid.
Neither reading is good
I'm imagining the idea was to produce a quick, compelling case, vote quickly and have most people be like "oh dang, Trump totally should have been convicted", but move on as soon as possible to avoid people associating them with a lost vote.
Could be something else though, there are a lot of individual people who may have had very different concerns in the Senate, and I'm betting any one of them could veto basically any plan of action.
Well I would also like to know what the plan here was, because it was either bad or didn't exist
People in here saying the impeachment vote was the only thing that matter are missing the point hard. The vote was not what mattered, it was never even in play. It was always going to be lost, and bragging about not losing as badly as expected is laughable.
The TRIAL was the point. The evidence, the witnesses, the recounting of events. The fight was for public opinion, not for the vote (which, again, was never even in play). Republicans were never worried about Trump getting impeached, they were worried about what the path to acquittal would cost them in the public realm and in future elections.
It turns out, it costs them nothing, because Democrats lost the trial. And they lost it of their own free will. They made themselves lose it on purpose. Republicans came in with an incompetent personal-injury lawyer who wasted everyone's time playing a meaningless clip show, and the Democrats reacted by running away with their tail between their legs.
In the court of public opinion, this is a massive, definitive, unambiguous win for the GOP and vindication for Trump, and a condemnation of Democrats for wasting time with partisan impeachment games. And Democrats did it to themselves.
Anyway, I hope those 7 votes and warm feeling from being "growups who moved on to the real issue" will comfort you while you watch Trump's second inauguration in January 2025. Not hyperbole, this is how bad a loss this is for Democrats.
This, this right here.
This is why we lose. All the damn time.
Because one side can take a breath, make a calculation, and take the most effective step to accomplish their (shitty, fucked up) goal in unison. Doubt it? Look at judicial appointments Obama v Trump.
Meanwhile, our side says and thinks things like this and engages in a circular firing squad 24/7.
You folks are doing exactly what they hope you'll do. Stop focusing on the cheeto that you can't do anything to anyway, and start focusing on WINNING THE ARGUMENT. Which you do by governing effectively and solving the five billion problems the last administration caused.
More than two problems can be attacked at the same time!
This impeachment was almost certainly a product of public pressure. I don't think they had a plan or a goal going into it because there was no ideology behind it on the congressional level. This also explains why they cut it short. When you feel forced into doing something that you don't really want to do, you just want it to be over with, once you think that the barest of obligations have been satisfied.
But that doesn't mean that there was nothing to be gained from doing so, and it is in that respect that I believe they failed.
Everybody knowing what happened isnt the same as everyone hearing testimony from terrified staffers.
Which would change absolutely nothing. The folks who would hear it (congress and voter both) have already seen video, audio, transcripts....its clear as fucking day.
What world do you live on that you think these people would be impacted by it at all?
We cant keep complaining about media narrative on this board if the game isnt even going to be played.
My point is playing the fucking media narrative game is a losing proposition at this point that will change nothing and convince no one. Reminding folks what actual government looks like and making THAT the choice? That's something different.
Also I can guarantee you that when the GOP does something that some of the GOP don't like they yell just as angrily on message boards like this. There is not some great GOP hivemind that never argues on the internet compared to our "circular firing squad". That's a myth of perception because you don't visit places where conservatives talk to each other.
People in here saying the impeachment vote was the only thing that matter are missing the point hard. The vote was not what mattered, it was never even in play. It was always going to be lost, and bragging about not losing as badly as expected is laughable.
The TRIAL was the point. The evidence, the witnesses, the recounting of events. The fight was for public opinion, not for the vote (which, again, was never even in play). Republicans were never worried about Trump getting impeached, they were worried about what the path to acquittal would cost them in the public realm and in future elections.
It turns out, it costs them nothing, because Democrats lost the trial. And they lost it of their own free will. They made themselves lose it on purpose. Republicans came in with an incompetent personal-injury lawyer who wasted everyone's time playing a meaningless clip show, and the Democrats reacted by running away with their tail between their legs.
In the court of public opinion, this is a massive, definitive, unambiguous win for the GOP and vindication for Trump, and a condemnation of Democrats for wasting time with partisan impeachment games. And Democrats did it to themselves.
Anyway, I hope those 7 votes and warm feeling from being "growups who moved on to the real issue" will comfort you while you watch Trump's second inauguration in January 2025. Not hyperbole, this is how bad a loss this is for Democrats.
This, this right here.
This is why we lose. All the damn time.
Because one side can take a breath, make a calculation, and take the most effective step to accomplish their (shitty, fucked up) goal in unison. Doubt it? Look at judicial appointments Obama v Trump.
Meanwhile, our side says and thinks things like this and engages in a circular firing squad 24/7.
You folks are doing exactly what they hope you'll do. Stop focusing on the cheeto that you can't do anything to anyway, and start focusing on WINNING THE ARGUMENT. Which you do by governing effectively and solving the five billion problems the last administration caused.
More than two problems can be attacked at the same time!
Literally no, the Senate business can't continue if they spend 8 hours a day for six months questioning witnesses.
Also I can guarantee you that when the GOP does something that some of the GOP don't like they yell just as angrily on message boards like this. There is not some great GOP hivemind that never argues on the internet compared to our "circular firing squad". That's a myth of perception because you don't visit places where conservatives talk to each other.
They have quite clearly got a split between Trumpers and non-Trumpers right now. Problem is, of course, the Trumpers are the larger faction.
What good will fixing it do if they can just do it all again (and more legally emboldened) next time?
They have to win elections to be able to. Again, which argument works better in 2022?
"Hey, remember COVID? Remember infrastructure? Remember minimum wage? They didn't fix that shit, we did. Now go vote."
"Hey, remember how we spent three weeks talking to witnesses about that thing EVERY SINGLE ONE OF YOU made up your minds on before we even started? Two years ago? That was fun."
Everybody knowing what happened isnt the same as everyone hearing testimony from terrified staffers.
Which would change absolutely nothing. The folks who would hear it (congress and voter both) have already seen video, audio, transcripts....its clear as fucking day.
What world do you live on that you think these people would be impacted by it at all?
We cant keep complaining about media narrative on this board if the game isnt even going to be played.
My point is playing the fucking media narrative game is a losing proposition at this point that will change nothing and convince no one. Reminding folks what actual government looks like and making THAT the choice? That's something different.
What good will fixing it do if they can just do it all again (and more legally emboldened) next time?
They have to win elections to be able to. Again, which argument works better in 2022?
"Hey, remember COVID? Remember infrastructure? Remember minimum wage? They didn't fix that shit, we did. Now go vote."
"Hey, remember how we spent three weeks talking to witnesses about that thing EVERY SINGLE ONE OF YOU made up your minds on before we even started? Two years ago? That was fun."
Also I can guarantee you that when the GOP does something that some of the GOP don't like they yell just as angrily on message boards like this. There is not some great GOP hivemind that never argues on the internet compared to our "circular firing squad". That's a myth of perception because you don't visit places where conservatives talk to each other.
I mean, you have people that knew damn well the mob would have murdered them if it had reached their position and those fuckers still voted to acquit. Knowing full well that Trump called in that mob to murder them. Like this isn't as complex an issue as some people believe. I'd say people's position on the whole matter was mostly settled within a week of the riot. Either you're convinced that Trump's actions were acceptable or you believed that he committed a crime. We all also knew the GOP was very likely to let the fucker off because "party over country" and apparently their damn miserable lives. Anyone tuned in and hell many of the not tuned in, likely realized this was going to be a show. I'd prefer they had called in the witnesses, but they didn't and honestly, the witnesses weren't going to change anything. There wasn't going to be a new bit of testimony that made someone change their mind or be that last bit to get them over the hump into the convict the fucker camp.
It's also worth noting, that this was going to be something that ate up time. Time that could be used to get other business down that would yield actually returns. Calling in witnesses wasn't going to do anything about the economy or unfuck everything Trump did. Also a fair chunk of the stuff the witnesses, at least the relevant ones, would have to say will end up in actual court records anyways.
People seem to be missing what a big deal it is that the vote was 57 to 43. That isn't nothing. It denies the GOP the option of screaming about it being a partisan hit job because even seven republican felt that Trump's behavior was out of line.
Alright seriously fucks, some of you'll need to chill and take a break. I mean for fucks sake, your seriously implying that you're willing to sit out elections because the expected out come happened. That you're willing to make it easier for the GOP to fuck people over on things like immigration, labor, women's rights, voting rights, climate change, police brutality and a shit ton o other things because the democrats didn't call in witnesses against Trump. Like seriously?
The Democrat party in its current form will not be able to stop the fascists. It needs to fundamentally change, or be replaced.
As a comparison, it feels like they're appeasing, but unlike the brits before ww2, they're not doing anything to prepare to fight the fascists. They're just clinging to procedure while the country is burned down under them.
Don't worry, those norms and traditions will surely keep the country held together!
People in here saying the impeachment vote was the only thing that matter are missing the point hard. The vote was not what mattered, it was never even in play. It was always going to be lost, and bragging about not losing as badly as expected is laughable.
The TRIAL was the point. The evidence, the witnesses, the recounting of events. The fight was for public opinion, not for the vote (which, again, was never even in play). Republicans were never worried about Trump getting impeached, they were worried about what the path to acquittal would cost them in the public realm and in future elections.
It turns out, it costs them nothing, because Democrats lost the trial. And they lost it of their own free will. They made themselves lose it on purpose. Republicans came in with an incompetent personal-injury lawyer who wasted everyone's time playing a meaningless clip show, and the Democrats reacted by running away with their tail between their legs.
In the court of public opinion, this is a massive, definitive, unambiguous win for the GOP and vindication for Trump, and a condemnation of Democrats for wasting time with partisan impeachment games. And Democrats did it to themselves.
Anyway, I hope those 7 votes and warm feeling from being "growups who moved on to the real issue" will comfort you while you watch Trump's second inauguration in January 2025. Not hyperbole, this is how bad a loss this is for Democrats.
This, this right here.
This is why we lose. All the damn time.
Because one side can take a breath, make a calculation, and take the most effective step to accomplish their (shitty, fucked up) goal in unison. Doubt it? Look at judicial appointments Obama v Trump.
Meanwhile, our side says and thinks things like this and engages in a circular firing squad 24/7.
You folks are doing exactly what they hope you'll do. Stop focusing on the cheeto that you can't do anything to anyway, and start focusing on WINNING THE ARGUMENT. Which you do by governing effectively and solving the five billion problems the last administration caused.
At some point “you just didn’t have enough faith!” Stops being meaningful
What good will fixing it do if they can just do it all again (and more legally emboldened) next time?
They have to win elections to be able to. Again, which argument works better in 2022?
"Hey, remember COVID? Remember infrastructure? Remember minimum wage? They didn't fix that shit, we did. Now go vote."
"Hey, remember how we spent three weeks talking to witnesses about that thing EVERY SINGLE ONE OF YOU made up your minds on before we even started? Two years ago? That was fun."
The assumption that there was ever a Sophie’s choice scenario is not based in reality.
Also I can guarantee you that when the GOP does something that some of the GOP don't like they yell just as angrily on message boards like this. There is not some great GOP hivemind that never argues on the internet compared to our "circular firing squad". That's a myth of perception because you don't visit places where conservatives talk to each other.
This is very possibly true.
Its not "possibly true", a mob tried to murder Pence for not over turning the election.
Posts
The gop was never going to do anything to Trump, this should've been extremely clear to any Democrat involved. So the impeachment should've been used to away public opinion, to really drive the point home what happened. Bombard them with the impact of their fascism.
If this wasn't the plan all along, what was?
Either a blue eyed hope that they might really convince enough republicans, which I don't believe for a second, or just an attempt to go through the motions and return to the status quo as quickly as possible.
It was either deliberate, or criminally stupid.
Neither reading is good
Why the fuck should we be happy with the democrats? Why should we believe they’ll protect us from the efforts of the GOP to turn this country into a fascist state?
At what point are we allowed to call theatre for what it is without being told we’re being hyperbolic, without being told we’re idiots, without being told we just don’t understand parliamentary procedure? Without getting a smug sense of superiority spat in our faces as people are suffering and dying around the country from the machinations, apathy and cruelties of the GOP and the Democrats always stop short of making meaningful help?
Vox reporter
"People want to go home for Valentine's Day".
Fuck all these people. They are not worth your time. They do not deserve your money.
The TRIAL was the point. The evidence, the witnesses, the recounting of events. The fight was for public opinion, not for the vote (which, again, was never even in play). Republicans were never worried about Trump getting impeached, they were worried about what the path to acquittal would cost them in the public realm and in future elections.
It turns out, it costs them nothing, because Democrats lost the trial. And they lost it of their own free will. They made themselves lose it on purpose. Republicans came in with an incompetent personal-injury lawyer who wasted everyone's time playing a meaningless clip show, and the Democrats reacted by running away with their tail between their legs.
In the court of public opinion, this is a massive, definitive, unambiguous win for the GOP and vindication for Trump, and a condemnation of Democrats for wasting time with partisan impeachment games. And Democrats did it to themselves.
Anyway, I hope those 7 votes and warm feeling from being "growups who moved on to the real issue" will comfort you while you watch Trump's second inauguration in January 2025. Not hyperbole, this is how bad a loss this is for Democrats.
The Democrats don't seem to be personally very friendly with the GOP right now. They seem actually pretty pissed off that the GOP tried to have them killed. They voted 100% in favor of impeachment in both houses and there seems to be a lot of frostiness in the dialog between them available to the public (eg AOC rebuffing Cruz on an issue they were both interested in.)
Nobody is telling you wait for justice though?
We have been saying doing the right thing matters even if its futile, and impeachment was almost certainly futile.
You were never going to make a stronger case than was made with the videos and presentations, and all witnesses would do is drag it out and water down the message and give the GOP time to spin a counter narrative.
The only witness that might have mattered was Trump and more so he would perjure himself. And still the Democratic Caucus voted as a bloc across the board.
And you were always gonna get smug bad faith from the GOP at the end of this. But again sometimes doing the right thing matters.
Pragmatism like prepping to take depositions, a fundamental practice in American legal practice?
this statement is evergreen and has been for decades
1. We are absolutely not going to pass a new a John Lewis VRA or whatever because we don't have enough Democrats who would vote for it anyway.
1a. Joe Manchin is not or has ever been a fucking Democrat.
2. Now that the Democrats have shown they won't actually force anything damaging to the Republican Party (even at the risk of something damaging to their own) we will not see any kind of act on the Filibuster.
3. Absolutely no COVID relief that in any way represents what 2020 Democrats ran their campaigns on.
4. Schumer continues to cede leadership and power to McConnel at every term as to not endanger "weak Senate Democrats" for reelection as if it fucking matters if you lose 52 to 48 or 56 to 44.
The Democratic Party are a bunch of goddamn fucking cowards.
5. Republicans take both the senate and house in 2022 because Democrats didn't actually attempt to fulfill any of their 2020 promises.
6. 2024 Trump is elected president.
But they didn’t do the right thing.
They played at it, and then when it came to doing a fundamental aspect of the right thing in this case, went “uuuuuh... yeah, ‘bout that.... no.”
This fucking party. My fucking party.
[waves generally at the congress thread’s endless argument about the filibuster, which is a thing precisely because enough members of the party believe they can still work with the neoconfederate fascists and value their input on legislation and hte legislative process, despite everything you just mentioned]
I'm imagining the idea was to produce a quick, compelling case, vote quickly and have most people be like "oh dang, Trump totally should have been convicted", but move on as soon as possible to avoid people associating them with a lost vote.
Could be something else though, there are a lot of individual people who may have had very different concerns in the Senate, and I'm betting any one of them could veto basically any plan of action.
The Valentines Day thing doesn't get me as much as 'calling witnesses may cost us Republican and Democratic votes'
exsqueeze me?
I didn’t think my heart could sink any deeper but yep, that did it. That did it.
These fucking selfish ghouls. Invested with the power of the state on behalf of citizens around the country, and they need to get home for a date night.
EDIT: “and maybe even some democrats”
THE EVER LOVING FUCKING SHIT?!
The Democrat party in its current form will not be able to stop the fascists. It needs to fundamentally change, or be replaced.
As a comparison, it feels like they're appeasing, but unlike the brits before ww2, they're not doing anything to prepare to fight the fascists. They're just clinging to procedure while the country is burned down under them.
This, this right here.
This is why we lose. All the damn time.
Because one side can take a breath, make a calculation, and take the most effective step to accomplish their (shitty, fucked up) goal in unison. Doubt it? Look at judicial appointments Obama v Trump.
Meanwhile, our side says and thinks things like this and engages in a circular firing squad 24/7.
You folks are doing exactly what they hope you'll do. Stop focusing on the cheeto that you can't do anything to anyway, and start focusing on WINNING THE ARGUMENT. Which you do by governing effectively and solving the five billion problems the last administration caused.
this trial was not a demonstration of effective governing
Well I would also like to know what the plan here was, because it was either bad or didn't exist
More than two problems can be attacked at the same time!
But that doesn't mean that there was nothing to be gained from doing so, and it is in that respect that I believe they failed.
We've been told this shit for Thirty Fucking Years!
Literally no, the Senate business can't continue if they spend 8 hours a day for six months questioning witnesses.
They have quite clearly got a split between Trumpers and non-Trumpers right now. Problem is, of course, the Trumpers are the larger faction.
They have to win elections to be able to. Again, which argument works better in 2022?
"Hey, remember COVID? Remember infrastructure? Remember minimum wage? They didn't fix that shit, we did. Now go vote."
"Hey, remember how we spent three weeks talking to witnesses about that thing EVERY SINGLE ONE OF YOU made up your minds on before we even started? Two years ago? That was fun."
And people keep voting in the fascists!
Surrender isn't the answer, some shit is just hard and is a constant endless battle!
This, sadly.
We still got 2 more Reps than I thought we would, and Cassidy is a nice pickup, but ffs Dems.
Also fuck you, Mitch.
Its funny because they havent done either yet
This is very possibly true.
It's also worth noting, that this was going to be something that ate up time. Time that could be used to get other business down that would yield actually returns. Calling in witnesses wasn't going to do anything about the economy or unfuck everything Trump did. Also a fair chunk of the stuff the witnesses, at least the relevant ones, would have to say will end up in actual court records anyways.
People seem to be missing what a big deal it is that the vote was 57 to 43. That isn't nothing. It denies the GOP the option of screaming about it being a partisan hit job because even seven republican felt that Trump's behavior was out of line.
Don't worry, those norms and traditions will surely keep the country held together!
At some point “you just didn’t have enough faith!” Stops being meaningful
The assumption that there was ever a Sophie’s choice scenario is not based in reality.
Its not "possibly true", a mob tried to murder Pence for not over turning the election.