I said it in the last thread, but I'm going to say again that I really hope they keep the narrative inversion on the Skrulls intact for Secret Invasion, maybe with a Skrull infiltration being used to counter to a more hostile one from another race (Kree or Sovereign both come to mind as potentials). Having rogue Skrulls splinter from Talos' refugees (or worse, a completely unaffiliated group attacking Earth for "reasons") would just feel contrived, especially when there are Human-looking species out there with an interest in Earth (or, at least, specific Terrans).
Societies aren't homegenous. It would honestly shock me if every Skrull was part of Talos' refugee faction. It would honestly be more contrived if they were all peaceniks than if there were other factions with different opinions and goals.
Especially given the comic Secret Invasion was a religious war where the Skrulls believed Earth was their fabled promised land that they were owed after Galactus ate their homeworld.
I would surprise me if every Skrull is part of Talos’ faction, but it would also surprise me if every Skrull who is working on Earth wasn’t. Earth in the MCU is a complete backwater. I get the impression that was one of the reasons Mar-Vell chose to work and hide Talos’ Skrulls there. As I said, the idea of a completely unrelated faction of Skrulls suddenly taking an interest in Earth for “reasons” (including, “we just realized this planet is our promised land”) comes off as incredibly contrived, even for the MCU.
Earth killed Thanos, TWICE, and restored the half of the universe that got snapped.
They ain't a backwater anymore like they were in the 90's. Earth was literally the most important planet in the universe.
If was kind of assuming that the secret invasion would have started pre-snap, or at least pre-blip, since it was supposed to have been going on for years before it was uncovered. Hostile Skrulls invading Earth post blip almost makes less sense. At that point you are talking about infiltrating the home world of several god-tier superheroes, as well as several hundred magical space gods passing time in a Norwegian fishing village, with it happening without somehow alerting the friendly Skrulls who’ve already infiltrated Earth (can disguised Skrulls recognize each other somehow?).
Let not any one pacify his conscience by the delusion that he can do no harm if he takes no part, and forms no opinion.
Would it take years to infiltrate given they're shapeshifters? Talos nabbed a high ranking government official and was only on Earth for like a day. Hell, had Coulson not have called in at just the right time (like, if that Skrull just killed him instead of taking his identity and hoping for the best), they might have replaced Fury as well.
Also the Skrulls love those god-tier superheros, because they can study and mimmick those powers.
Skrulls can recognize each other if the script wants them to, I guess. I don't think the films have made anything about that clear as of yet.
I think the secret invasion is going to be the Kree. Jude Law shows that they can look human and the Ending of Captain Marvel talked about them wanting to return to Earth to collect "the weapon".
Well now Earth has lots of weapons and if the Kree can capture and brainwash them like they did with Carol Danvers, they got an army that is a significant power in the Galaxy. Ditto for the Asgardians, but they can't do it openly or else they will be curbstomped. So they will secretly infiltrate and take them over one by one.
The sky was full of stars, every star an exploding ship. One of ours.
Hard disagree. Loved Zemo in Civil War. He was tragic but still an awful person. On top of that his plan worked. Break up the Avengers, who failed him. He did that. On top of that, he helped solidify the accords as something the government wants to stick with, making life very difficult for heroes.
Zemo was my favorite MCU villain at the time. Keaton's Vulture is more interesting on screen, and Thanos blows them both away, but that still leaves him in the top 3. He's the villain you can't punch away.
+11
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
Zemo was my favorite MCU villain at the time. Keaton's Vulture is more interesting on screen, and Thanos blows them both away, but that still leaves him in the top 3. He's the villain you can't punch away.
It goes
Killmonger
a huge gulf
Thanos
Vulture
Zemo
Loki
Ego
Mysterio
I dunno, Red Skull?
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
Zemo was my favorite MCU villain at the time. Keaton's Vulture is more interesting on screen, and Thanos blows them both away, but that still leaves him in the top 3. He's the villain you can't punch away.
It goes
Killmonger
a huge gulf
Thanos
Vulture
Zemo
Loki
Ego
Mysterio
I dunno, Red Skull?
I forgot about Killmonger, thank you. Still Thanos on top for me, but I wouldn't argue the rest of that list.
+1
Options
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
I don't even like Black Panther as a movie but holy shit is Killmonger so fuckin good
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
Zemo was my favorite MCU villain at the time. Keaton's Vulture is more interesting on screen, and Thanos blows them both away, but that still leaves him in the top 3. He's the villain you can't punch away.
It goes
Killmonger
a huge gulf
Thanos
Vulture
Zemo
Loki
Ego
Mysterio
I dunno, Red Skull?
There's like 5-6 posts between this and what I'm quoting, and that still might not be enough of a gap to mention Whiplash
Would it take years to infiltrate given they're shapeshifters? Talos nabbed a high ranking government official and was only on Earth for like a day. Hell, had Coulson not have called in at just the right time (like, if that Skrull just killed him instead of taking his identity and hoping for the best), they might have replaced Fury as well.
Talos nabbed a high-ranking government official and was discovered shortly thereafter because they can only copy recent memories. Also, studying Earth's supers for their powers isn't a reason to invade; they'd have to create the Super Skrull with the right powers before they could reliably sim a super. At that point you are still left with the question of why they then need to conquer Earth.
Zemo was my favorite MCU villain at the time. Keaton's Vulture is more interesting on screen, and Thanos blows them both away, but that still leaves him in the top 3. He's the villain you can't punch away.
It goes
Killmonger
a huge gulf
Thanos
Vulture
Zemo
Loki
Ego
Mysterio
I dunno, Red Skull?
There's like 5-6 posts between this and what I'm quoting, and that still might not be enough of a gap to mention Whiplash
"Tvoy zlodey - govno."
"What?"
"Villain shit."
Let not any one pacify his conscience by the delusion that he can do no harm if he takes no part, and forms no opinion.
- John Stuart Mill
0
Options
Zavianuniversal peace sounds better than forever warRegistered Userregular
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
Zemo was my favorite MCU villain at the time. Keaton's Vulture is more interesting on screen, and Thanos blows them both away, but that still leaves him in the top 3. He's the villain you can't punch away.
It goes
Killmonger
a huge gulf
Thanos
Vulture
Zemo
Loki
Ego
Mysterio
I dunno, Red Skull?
There's like 5-6 posts between this and what I'm quoting, and that still might not be enough of a gap to mention Whiplash
The ideal post would be at the end of the thread.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
Wanda Vision was a brilliant show, despite not sticking the landing but that was expected. Disney+ needs to get another season, unless Scarlet Witch will be headlining her own movies now. There's so much to explore with this character after the tv show. Vision was perfect, finally got his due in the MCU.
Wanda herself, still a complicated character who Marvel still refuses to call out for her crimes, and people still coddle her when they shouldn't be - like Monica. Why does this lady trust Wanda so much? Attacked more then once trying to calm Wanda down, with violence, when she was doing the right thing reaching out and she should be vastly more skeptical of Wanda unless the Avengers covered up her activities with Ultron and HYDRA. It's one thing to think Wanda isn't evil and is the solution, it's quite another to give Wanda a pat on the head and let her fly off without incident as if justice is served.
The narrative absolves Wanda all too much in the show, when she's the Big Bad. Many people told her what she was doing was wrong, like Vision, Monica, and the townspeople and she pushed back far too many times to know what she was doing was ruining peoples lives. Wanda's lack of ignorance of the situation was a plot point by ep 3 when she threw Monica out and covered her disappearance from Vision and it was very up front with Wanda controlling everything with ep 6 which she was voluntarily controlling Vision for a story idea and "Pietro" taking to her openly about the implications of the Hex as though the two were super-villains. She never denied what he said, despite knowing how wrong it sounded. But she did continue to cover everything up to Vision, forcing him to investigate on his own and learn what horrors lurked on the outskirts of town for people who weren't in storylines. I don't know why Marvel is insistent on letting Wanda rack up horrific unforgivable crimes when they also do so much to make her more relatable than in the movies where she'll put Avengers in the hospital if they're on the wrong team with no remorse ad won't say a word about her actions in Lagos. It'd be one thing had the Hex not had actual people living in the town but they were very real Marvel citizens with their own lives.
Tony Stark isn't who Wand should be compared to, or Black Widow (her horrible decisions and remorse defined her character), it's Zemo. The only difference between her and Zemo is that Zemo didn't team up with the Avengers against a bigger enemy. Had Ultron not wanted to destroy humanity she'd still be on his team murdering Avengers and looking the other way while Ultron murdered people. She only left HYDRA because they were losers, not on ideological grounds. Tony got yelled at by people who disagreed with his actions from his first movie, which made him sober up and learn from his mistakes - he never attacked them for doing this or hid from the Avengers when people did this to him.
Contrast this scene with what Wanda did in WV when people told her what she was doing was wrong in the Hex. Imagine had this woman done this to Wanda in Civil War, how would she react?
MCU Zemo is just Zemo in name only, there's no traits of his comic roots you can see in Civil War. You could've made him any random schlub and the story would've been the same (And in fact might have been slightly better!) Learning he's in Falcon and Winter Soldier has lowered my expectations significantly for that show unless they do some major legwork to actually make him worth giving the name. He wasn't a bad villain, mind, he was just a shit awful Zemo. I can accept I'm in the minority of this opinion cause I know it's niche as hell.
Agreed though that Killmonger is the best MCU villain and it's not even close. Thanos is meme tier for me at this point, but gimme more Spidey Villains like Vulture and Mysterio. Or like Klaue. Gods, I'm sad they killed Klaue cause Andy Serkis played him like such a shit heel.
"Go down, kick ass, and set yourselves up as gods, that's our Prime Directive!"
Hail Hydra
+4
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ChaosHatHop, hop, hop, HA!Trick of the lightRegistered Userregular
I think that's one of the refreshing things about the MCU, it's willing to take what works and be inspired by the comics but also willing to totally remix it when it would better suit the character, overarching narrative, the actor, etc. To me that's also what makes it feel more comics-y. Half the fun of alternate universes is seeing the alternate paths and the wild deviations from what could have been and then where it's also similar.
It's like saying the Peter Parker in Spider-Gwen is a bad Peter Parker. Yes, but that's also what makes it stand out and be it's own thing! Having to be the same thing would make it worse on a variety of levels.
+3
Options
Zavianuniversal peace sounds better than forever warRegistered Userregular
alternate versions of characters are a time honored Marvel comics trope so I have no problem with MCU Zemo. In fact he's probably one of my fav MCU villains and I want to see him headline an MCU Thunderbolts movie/series
One neat thing they could have done is retconned in that Wanda saved Monica’s mom at some point between the movies, and that’s why she sees her as a hero. Even with her mom now passed on, we can say her heroism extended her time with her, and was therefore with it. It’d balance all Wanda’s other decisions a little bit.
0
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Zavianuniversal peace sounds better than forever warRegistered Userregular
I think they could have spent a little bit more time with Monica's own grief to show why she has empathy for Wanda, it makes sense but there wasn't really a scene that went into that aspect of Monica/Wanda
MCU Zemo is just Zemo in name only, there's no traits of his comic roots you can see in Civil War. You could've made him any random schlub and the story would've been the same (And in fact might have been slightly better!) Learning he's in Falcon and Winter Soldier has lowered my expectations significantly for that show unless they do some major legwork to actually make him worth giving the name. He wasn't a bad villain, mind, he was just a shit awful Zemo. I can accept I'm in the minority of this opinion cause I know it's niche as hell.
Agreed though that Killmonger is the best MCU villain and it's not even close. Thanos is meme tier for me at this point, but gimme more Spidey Villains like Vulture and Mysterio. Or like Klaue. Gods, I'm sad they killed Klaue cause Andy Serkis played him like such a shit heel.
The comics version of Zemo is the Red Skull in a mask, at least the original version. The Current one has a bit of the movie version in that he wants revenge of Cap for killing his father, but even he is a nazi.
The movie version of Zemo has a better background in that he was a bad guy, but still not one you could dismiss like a Nazi or Hydra Agent. He wants to end the Avengers because he sees super-powered beings as treat. He wants to expose them for the flawed humans they are. That their powers haven't made them wiser, just more powerfull.
In this way he is the perfect foil for a superhero universe, because there is nothing with having superpowers that makes you a better person. The ability to fly, to shrink, to punch really hard or kill with a thought does not make you an intrinsically better person, it just makes you somebody that can fly, etc...
The sky was full of stars, every star an exploding ship. One of ours.
+4
Options
Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
I feel like most of the criticisms I see in this thread regarding characters basically boil down to "they aren't the same as the comics" or "they aren't the same as I imagined them to be".
Zemo is a fantastic villain, especially in comparison to the vast majority of other MCU villains we see.
I feel like most of the criticisms I see in this thread regarding characters basically boil down to "they aren't the same as the comics" or "they aren't the same as I imagined them to be".
Wanda's goes beyond that, she's the complete opposite from the comics to the point where it hurts her character. What's irritating is that Marvel still refuses to do anything with that, thats why she hasn't fulfilled her potential as a character or hero. Unlike, say, Black Widow. She too, is not the same as the comics but she had a full character arc while doing the character arc of villain to hero. For all the good WV did to her as a character they still brushed off being a Super Nazi, but it was refreshing to have another super-villain question her decision to do that which they should have expanded further. Instead of leaving it at one or two sentences, and focusing entirely on HYDRA giving her powers.
Zemo is a fantastic villain, especially in comparison to the vast majority of other MCU villains we see.
Sure.
0
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Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
Trying to get on Wanda's case for joining up with Hydra (which she didn't know was a shadow organization) when Shield itself was infiltrated by Hydra is little hilarious
Trying to get on Wanda's case for joining up with Hydra (which she didn't know was a shadow organization) when Shield itself was infiltrated by Hydra is little hilarious
This hasn't been confirmed either way.
She joined up with a killbot to try and kill Stark and the Avengers and set the Hulk upon an unsuspecting city, so she apparently was willing to tolerate quite a bit of villainy to get what she wanted. She may have been perfectly willing to put up with some or all of Hydra's worst elements.
Trying to get on Wanda's case for joining up with Hydra (which she didn't know was a shadow organization) when Shield itself was infiltrated by Hydra is little hilarious
This hasn't been confirmed either way.
She joined up with a killbot to try and kill Stark and the Avengers and set the Hulk upon an unsuspecting city, so she apparently was willing to tolerate quite a bit of villainy to get what she wanted. She may have been perfectly willing to put up with some or all of Hydra's worst elements.
I'm actually not sure Wanda made the hulk do that, she simply showed each of them their worst fears, which then caused Hulk to go wild. To be honest it's on the Avengers themselves for taking Banner into dangerous fights if they still couldn't really control hulk very well. They basically had one method to calm him down and that's not great.
Wanda at the beginning of Ultron is still feeling all the resentment towards Stark and the western world that's really justified. Stark weapons are still everywhere and ruined her country for decades, and likely others as well. Stark does get a taste of what he's caused in Civil War, but Wanda is a different status than The Avengers, so for her doing those things is leveling the playing field.
Obviously the character has evolved since then as well, imo done a lot more good than bad.
If you're going to ignore the established character make a new one.
I mean, some of the most iconic MCU characters are pretty much new takes on the character. Guardians of the Galaxy, Thanos, Iron Man himself is more RDJ than comics tony.
Trying to get on Wanda's case for joining up with Hydra (which she didn't know was a shadow organization) when Shield itself was infiltrated by Hydra is little hilarious
This hasn't been confirmed either way.
She joined up with a killbot to try and kill Stark and the Avengers and set the Hulk upon an unsuspecting city, so she apparently was willing to tolerate quite a bit of villainy to get what she wanted. She may have been perfectly willing to put up with some or all of Hydra's worst elements.
I'm actually not sure Wanda made the hulk do that, she simply showed each of them their worst fears, which then caused Hulk to go wild. To be honest it's on the Avengers themselves for taking Banner into dangerous fights if they still couldn't really control hulk very well. They basically had one method to calm him down and that's not great.
Wanda at the beginning of Ultron is still feeling all the resentment towards Stark and the western world that's really justified. Stark weapons are still everywhere and ruined her country for decades, and likely others as well. Stark does get a taste of what he's caused in Civil War, but Wanda is a different status than The Avengers, so for her doing those things is leveling the playing field.
Obviously the character has evolved since then as well, imo done a lot more good than bad.
If you go by the post-credits scene from Winter Soldier where Pietro and Wanda are first introduced, they both look messed up and are stuck in cells, so y'know. I'm sure they weren't spared from mindfuckery and torture when they initially joined up and got their powers. I really don't think either of them were fully in their right minds at the beginning of Ultron.
If you're going to ignore the established character make a new one.
Which established character? Some of these characters have decades' worth of history, much of which is contradictory.
Right? Some characters aren't even written consistently within the same book series or under the same writers. Two different writers can have completely different ideas about what makes a character great.
Local H Jay on
0
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
If you're going to ignore the established character make a new one.
Which established character? Some of these characters have decades' worth of history, much of which is contradictory.
Right? Some characters aren't even written consistently within the same book series or under the same writers. Two different writers can have completely different ideas about what makes a character great.
*gestures at Taskmaster*
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
0
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
If you're going to ignore the established character make a new one.
Which established character? Some of these characters have decades' worth of history, much of which is contradictory.
Right? Some characters aren't even written consistently within the same book series or under the same writers. Two different writers can have completely different ideas about what makes a character great.
*gestures at Taskmaster*
Gets so obnoxious when Taskmaster is basically godlike, but I quite like when he's operating as an amoral merc with some actual limitations, both physical and in his contracts.
Posts
If was kind of assuming that the secret invasion would have started pre-snap, or at least pre-blip, since it was supposed to have been going on for years before it was uncovered. Hostile Skrulls invading Earth post blip almost makes less sense. At that point you are talking about infiltrating the home world of several god-tier superheroes, as well as several hundred magical space gods passing time in a Norwegian fishing village, with it happening without somehow alerting the friendly Skrulls who’ve already infiltrated Earth (can disguised Skrulls recognize each other somehow?).
- John Stuart Mill
Also the Skrulls love those god-tier superheros, because they can study and mimmick those powers.
Skrulls can recognize each other if the script wants them to, I guess. I don't think the films have made anything about that clear as of yet.
Well now Earth has lots of weapons and if the Kree can capture and brainwash them like they did with Carol Danvers, they got an army that is a significant power in the Galaxy. Ditto for the Asgardians, but they can't do it openly or else they will be curbstomped. So they will secretly infiltrate and take them over one by one.
MCU Zemo was awesome! His plan succeeded for the most part. He's very creepy! Big fan, looking forward to more shenanigans.
Hard disagree. Loved Zemo in Civil War. He was tragic but still an awful person. On top of that his plan worked. Break up the Avengers, who failed him. He did that. On top of that, he helped solidify the accords as something the government wants to stick with, making life very difficult for heroes.
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It goes
Killmonger
a huge gulf
Thanos
Vulture
Zemo
Loki
Ego
Mysterio
I dunno, Red Skull?
I forgot about Killmonger, thank you. Still Thanos on top for me, but I wouldn't argue the rest of that list.
There's like 5-6 posts between this and what I'm quoting, and that still might not be enough of a gap to mention Whiplash
Talos nabbed a high-ranking government official and was discovered shortly thereafter because they can only copy recent memories. Also, studying Earth's supers for their powers isn't a reason to invade; they'd have to create the Super Skrull with the right powers before they could reliably sim a super. At that point you are still left with the question of why they then need to conquer Earth.
"Tvoy zlodey - govno."
"What?"
"Villain shit."
- John Stuart Mill
The ideal post would be at the end of the thread.
Really fascinating look at how they made the show. The stuff about how they did the 50s era episode especially was great.
Wanda herself, still a complicated character who Marvel still refuses to call out for her crimes, and people still coddle her when they shouldn't be - like Monica. Why does this lady trust Wanda so much? Attacked more then once trying to calm Wanda down, with violence, when she was doing the right thing reaching out and she should be vastly more skeptical of Wanda unless the Avengers covered up her activities with Ultron and HYDRA. It's one thing to think Wanda isn't evil and is the solution, it's quite another to give Wanda a pat on the head and let her fly off without incident as if justice is served.
The narrative absolves Wanda all too much in the show, when she's the Big Bad. Many people told her what she was doing was wrong, like Vision, Monica, and the townspeople and she pushed back far too many times to know what she was doing was ruining peoples lives. Wanda's lack of ignorance of the situation was a plot point by ep 3 when she threw Monica out and covered her disappearance from Vision and it was very up front with Wanda controlling everything with ep 6 which she was voluntarily controlling Vision for a story idea and "Pietro" taking to her openly about the implications of the Hex as though the two were super-villains. She never denied what he said, despite knowing how wrong it sounded. But she did continue to cover everything up to Vision, forcing him to investigate on his own and learn what horrors lurked on the outskirts of town for people who weren't in storylines. I don't know why Marvel is insistent on letting Wanda rack up horrific unforgivable crimes when they also do so much to make her more relatable than in the movies where she'll put Avengers in the hospital if they're on the wrong team with no remorse ad won't say a word about her actions in Lagos. It'd be one thing had the Hex not had actual people living in the town but they were very real Marvel citizens with their own lives.
Tony Stark isn't who Wand should be compared to, or Black Widow (her horrible decisions and remorse defined her character), it's Zemo. The only difference between her and Zemo is that Zemo didn't team up with the Avengers against a bigger enemy. Had Ultron not wanted to destroy humanity she'd still be on his team murdering Avengers and looking the other way while Ultron murdered people. She only left HYDRA because they were losers, not on ideological grounds. Tony got yelled at by people who disagreed with his actions from his first movie, which made him sober up and learn from his mistakes - he never attacked them for doing this or hid from the Avengers when people did this to him.
Contrast this scene with what Wanda did in WV when people told her what she was doing was wrong in the Hex. Imagine had this woman done this to Wanda in Civil War, how would she react?
Agreed though that Killmonger is the best MCU villain and it's not even close. Thanos is meme tier for me at this point, but gimme more Spidey Villains like Vulture and Mysterio. Or like Klaue. Gods, I'm sad they killed Klaue cause Andy Serkis played him like such a shit heel.
It's like saying the Peter Parker in Spider-Gwen is a bad Peter Parker. Yes, but that's also what makes it stand out and be it's own thing! Having to be the same thing would make it worse on a variety of levels.
One neat thing they could have done is retconned in that Wanda saved Monica’s mom at some point between the movies, and that’s why she sees her as a hero. Even with her mom now passed on, we can say her heroism extended her time with her, and was therefore with it. It’d balance all Wanda’s other decisions a little bit.
The comics version of Zemo is the Red Skull in a mask, at least the original version. The Current one has a bit of the movie version in that he wants revenge of Cap for killing his father, but even he is a nazi.
The movie version of Zemo has a better background in that he was a bad guy, but still not one you could dismiss like a Nazi or Hydra Agent. He wants to end the Avengers because he sees super-powered beings as treat. He wants to expose them for the flawed humans they are. That their powers haven't made them wiser, just more powerfull.
In this way he is the perfect foil for a superhero universe, because there is nothing with having superpowers that makes you a better person. The ability to fly, to shrink, to punch really hard or kill with a thought does not make you an intrinsically better person, it just makes you somebody that can fly, etc...
Zemo is a fantastic villain, especially in comparison to the vast majority of other MCU villains we see.
Wanda's goes beyond that, she's the complete opposite from the comics to the point where it hurts her character. What's irritating is that Marvel still refuses to do anything with that, thats why she hasn't fulfilled her potential as a character or hero. Unlike, say, Black Widow. She too, is not the same as the comics but she had a full character arc while doing the character arc of villain to hero. For all the good WV did to her as a character they still brushed off being a Super Nazi, but it was refreshing to have another super-villain question her decision to do that which they should have expanded further. Instead of leaving it at one or two sentences, and focusing entirely on HYDRA giving her powers.
Sure.
This hasn't been confirmed either way.
She joined up with a killbot to try and kill Stark and the Avengers and set the Hulk upon an unsuspecting city, so she apparently was willing to tolerate quite a bit of villainy to get what she wanted. She may have been perfectly willing to put up with some or all of Hydra's worst elements.
I'm actually not sure Wanda made the hulk do that, she simply showed each of them their worst fears, which then caused Hulk to go wild. To be honest it's on the Avengers themselves for taking Banner into dangerous fights if they still couldn't really control hulk very well. They basically had one method to calm him down and that's not great.
Wanda at the beginning of Ultron is still feeling all the resentment towards Stark and the western world that's really justified. Stark weapons are still everywhere and ruined her country for decades, and likely others as well. Stark does get a taste of what he's caused in Civil War, but Wanda is a different status than The Avengers, so for her doing those things is leveling the playing field.
Obviously the character has evolved since then as well, imo done a lot more good than bad.
I mean, some of the most iconic MCU characters are pretty much new takes on the character. Guardians of the Galaxy, Thanos, Iron Man himself is more RDJ than comics tony.
If you go by the post-credits scene from Winter Soldier where Pietro and Wanda are first introduced, they both look messed up and are stuck in cells, so y'know. I'm sure they weren't spared from mindfuckery and torture when they initially joined up and got their powers. I really don't think either of them were fully in their right minds at the beginning of Ultron.
Do... Re... Mi... So... Fa.... Do... Re.... Do...
Forget it...
Which established character? Some of these characters have decades' worth of history, much of which is contradictory.
Right? Some characters aren't even written consistently within the same book series or under the same writers. Two different writers can have completely different ideas about what makes a character great.
*gestures at Taskmaster*
Gets so obnoxious when Taskmaster is basically godlike, but I quite like when he's operating as an amoral merc with some actual limitations, both physical and in his contracts.