Gods, I'm sad they killed Klaue cause Andy Serkis played him like such a shit heel.
I feel like Black Panther does a lot of heavy lifting for Klaue. He showed up in AoU but he was kind of a shitty merc type with no personality. But in BP he was absolutely amazing, and yeah, I wish they hadn't killed him off.
Dark Raven XLaugh hard, run fast,be kindRegistered Userregular
It's wild the Hulk's rampage in Joburg doesn't get brought up more often. It seems like it should have been a way bigger deal than it was. Like even Ross didn't mention it during the guilt trip over the Sokovia Accords.
If all it takes is a twinkle of her fingers to send hulk crazy, he was a danger to have on the field to begin with. Idk seems to me Tony had the foresight to make a suit to beat the snot out of Hulk, but not the foresight that needing it in the first place was a huge red flag.
It's wild the Hulk's rampage in Joburg doesn't get brought up more often. It seems like it should have been a way bigger deal than it was. Like even Ross didn't mention it during the guilt trip over the Sokovia Accords.
As I recall, Rogers cut him off.
It might have been next in the PowerPoint.
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First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
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OrcaAlso known as EspressosaurusWrexRegistered Userregular
Well, just finished up Wandavision. The first couple episodes did basically nothing for me, as I expected, but the later ones did manage to suck me in despite myself. I enjoyed it. Ended on a B+ note where the few episodes before were looking like solid A material, but still a pretty decent finish all things considered.
The actress playing Agnes was great. I enjoyed every moment of her on screen, especially pre-witching.
Darcy was fun, but I didn't feel like she bounced off Agent Woo the way she did Jane. He's a bit of a goofball himself which is, I think, the issue. Still fun to see them both though.
Looking forward to Falcon and Bucky. People snarking at each other and punching faces is always my jam.
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Brainiac 8Don't call me Shirley...Registered Userregular
Aw, I feel so differently. I loved Darcy and Woo together. I want a Darcy and Woo investigate weird stuff together Disney plus show.
If all it takes is a twinkle of her fingers to send hulk crazy, he was a danger to have on the field to begin with. Idk seems to me Tony had the foresight to make a suit to beat the snot out of Hulk, but not the foresight that needing it in the first place was a huge red flag.
That doesn't absolve a terror attack on a major city. If you want to blame Tony, go for it. You don't get to go on a murder spree if somebody forgets to lock their gun safe.
It's wild the Hulk's rampage in Joburg doesn't get brought up more often. It seems like it should have been a way bigger deal than it was. Like even Ross didn't mention it during the guilt trip over the Sokovia Accords.
Stark did a LOT to mitigate the potential damage. I'm not even sure if anyone died. Basically they tore up a couple buildings and streets, scared the holy hell out of the locals and demolished an under construction skyscraper that Stark payed for in full.
If all it takes is a twinkle of her fingers to send hulk crazy, he was a danger to have on the field to begin with. Idk seems to me Tony had the foresight to make a suit to beat the snot out of Hulk, but not the foresight that needing it in the first place was a huge red flag.
Dude, she didn't just twinkle her fingers, she enhanced the Hulk. Watch the scene where he calms down again, he visibly shrinks down to a less roided out Hulk.
If all it takes is a twinkle of her fingers to send hulk crazy, he was a danger to have on the field to begin with. Idk seems to me Tony had the foresight to make a suit to beat the snot out of Hulk, but not the foresight that needing it in the first place was a huge red flag.
That doesn't absolve a terror attack on a major city. If you want to blame Tony, go for it. You don't get to go on a murder spree if somebody forgets to lock their gun safe.
Did she intend for the Hulk to go on a rampage, or just for him to suffer crippling self doubt and leave the team? Not that this would absolve her entirely, but it puts her crime in different ballparks
If all it takes is a twinkle of her fingers to send hulk crazy, he was a danger to have on the field to begin with. Idk seems to me Tony had the foresight to make a suit to beat the snot out of Hulk, but not the foresight that needing it in the first place was a huge red flag.
That doesn't absolve a terror attack on a major city. If you want to blame Tony, go for it. You don't get to go on a murder spree if somebody forgets to lock their gun safe.
You don't get to use a weapon in the first place if you can't control it. Up to that point they had no reason to believe Bruce could control Hulk. Keep in mind Tony was also shown his worst fears and he didn't turn around and blow up a city.
If all it takes is a twinkle of her fingers to send hulk crazy, he was a danger to have on the field to begin with. Idk seems to me Tony had the foresight to make a suit to beat the snot out of Hulk, but not the foresight that needing it in the first place was a huge red flag.
That doesn't absolve a terror attack on a major city. If you want to blame Tony, go for it. You don't get to go on a murder spree if somebody forgets to lock their gun safe.
You don't get to use a weapon in the first place if you can't control it. Up to that point they had no reason to believe Bruce could control Hulk. Keep in mind Tony was also shown his worst fears and he didn't turn around and blow up a city.
Other than Harlem. And the Battle of New York. And the battle against Hydra in the beginning of AoE. And likely whatever activities they got up to between films.
If all it takes is a twinkle of her fingers to send hulk crazy, he was a danger to have on the field to begin with. Idk seems to me Tony had the foresight to make a suit to beat the snot out of Hulk, but not the foresight that needing it in the first place was a huge red flag.
That doesn't absolve a terror attack on a major city. If you want to blame Tony, go for it. You don't get to go on a murder spree if somebody forgets to lock their gun safe.
You don't get to use a weapon in the first place if you can't control it. Up to that point they had no reason to believe Bruce could control Hulk. Keep in mind Tony was also shown his worst fears and he didn't turn around and blow up a city.
Other than Harlem. And the Battle of New York. And the battle against Hydra in the beginning of AoE. And likely whatever activities they got up to between films.
You mean the same battle of NY where right before, hulk nearly turned Nat into paste? He couldn't even turn when he needed to in IW. Like Hulk wasn't flying, he was falling with style. He didn't have control until Endgame.
If all it takes is a twinkle of her fingers to send hulk crazy, he was a danger to have on the field to begin with. Idk seems to me Tony had the foresight to make a suit to beat the snot out of Hulk, but not the foresight that needing it in the first place was a huge red flag.
That doesn't absolve a terror attack on a major city. If you want to blame Tony, go for it. You don't get to go on a murder spree if somebody forgets to lock their gun safe.
You don't get to use a weapon in the first place if you can't control it. Up to that point they had no reason to believe Bruce could control Hulk. Keep in mind Tony was also shown his worst fears and he didn't turn around and blow up a city.
Other than Harlem. And the Battle of New York. And the battle against Hydra in the beginning of AoE. And likely whatever activities they got up to between films.
You mean the same battle of NY where right before, hulk nearly turned Nat into paste?
Because of the Mind Stone which nearly turned everyone against each other, not just the Hulk?
He couldn't even turn when he needed to in IW.
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So the Hulk choosing NOT to fight is an example of how he's out of control and shouldn't be brought anywhere? Also, right before that was Ragnarok, where the Hulk, you know, actually listened to his friends and did what they told him, even and up to ignoring a big monster he desperately wanted to Smash.
The Hulk not coming out when Banner needs him is a problem, yes. If the whole point of bringing him around is to be of help, and then he keeps getting brainwashed to attack them... Seems like they maybe should have thought on it a little more.
Hulk in ragnarok is still struggling with his superiority complex, and it's an excellent arc but he's not in love with being part of Banner
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AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
Matt Shakman, showrunner on WandaVision, hinted today in an interview that the “missing person” is still in the wind and might pop up in a forthcoming project. He also wouldn’t confirm or deny the future inclusion of Evan Peters in other MCU projects.
You're moving the goalposts. We were talking about the inherent danger of the Hulk, not his reliability of showing up, nor his relationship with Banner. Danger from a lack of Hulk is not danger that originates from the Hulk.
And ultimately, whether or not blame can be applied to the Avengers is immaterial to the fact that Wanda acted with intent to negatively influence the Hulk. She chose to do that. Nobody forced her into it. She made that choice, and had she not done so, the entire thing wouldn't have happened.
You're moving the goalposts. We were talking about the inherent danger of the Hulk, not his reliability of showing up, nor his relationship with Banner. Danger from a lack of Hulk is not danger that originates from the Hulk.
And ultimately, whether or not blame can be applied to the Avengers is immaterial to the fact that Wanda acted with intent to negatively influence the Hulk. She chose to do that. Nobody forced her into it. She made that choice, and had she not done so, the entire thing wouldn't have happened.
If they're in a situation where they need hulk to save lives, like maybe... A space army is attacking Wakanda, it's as dangerous if hulk can't be relied on. I'm not moving any posts, I'm saying it was pretty irresponsible to have Banner out in the field before he could get a handle on his powers, kinda like using the stone to make Ultron, etc. They were very much doing whatever they wanted.
People are just laying a whole lot at Wanda's feet while ignoring the context that lead to those events and who else had to fuck up for Hulk to even be in a position to go crazy.
Trying to get on Wanda's case for joining up with Hydra (which she didn't know was a shadow organization) when Shield itself was infiltrated by Hydra is little hilarious
We don't know anything about what Wanda thought when she was in HYDRA, it's a large gap Marvel's ignored. SHIELD being infiltrated by HYDRA is not anything like joining HYDRA, that's why HYDRA had to hide itself. It knew if people recognised its people they'd get hunted down for being terrorists. HYDRA didn't hide anything from Wanda, it's not von Strucker's cell was anything less then a terrorist cell. Von Strucker himself had to reign in the twins from killing the Avengers, they were that blood thirsty and Wanda was worse by far than Pietro. At no point have the films established Wanda was brainwashed, either, HYDRA only did as program of brainwashing super-villains in Agents of SHIELD and that was nebulously connected with the films and it kept breaking continuity further and further until Fiege cut it off completely by taking over Marvel TV. The Snap never happened n AOS, or any of the tv shows. Agent Carter is an exception since Fiege directly worked on that.
I'm actually not sure Wanda made the hulk do that, she simply showed each of them their worst fears, which then caused Hulk to go wild. To be honest it's on the Avengers themselves for taking Banner into dangerous fights if they still couldn't really control hulk very well. They basically had one method to calm him down and that's not great.
She was itching to unleash the Hulk to cause massive destruction, which is her default state as a super-villain in the movie. Pietro's the impulsive jerk, she's the one who'll kill you without blinking twice. She's not dumb, she knew what was doing. Except they were able to control the Hulk, Wanda broke that hold deliberately to cause chaos and destruction - that's why she fit in with HYDRA and Ultron so well. This was scuttled in the third act when the writers remembered she was supposed to be an Avenger so now they must give her the flimsiest excuse to turn on Ultron and forgive everything she did if she fought with the Avengers because she's useful. All that she did was implied to be wiped clean, she gets to live her life peacefully without showing any remorse, unlike Widow or Bucky, admit to people what she was wrong or do what she had to to fix the lives she ruined. Which includes killing soldiers via Hulk. It was a method which worked, Wanda just did to him what Ultron tried to do with nuclear bombs.
Wanda at the beginning of Ultron is still feeling all the resentment towards Stark and the western world that's really justified. Stark weapons are still everywhere and ruined her country for decades, and likely others as well. Stark does get a taste of what he's caused in Civil War, but Wanda is a different status than The Avengers, so for her doing those things is leveling the playing field.
The twins resentment to Stark made no sense. No terrorist is so since minded to focus their anger on a manufacturer of a weapon over the local or broader politics which put that weapon into play. Politics which she done some protests in, but we never hear her thoughts on politics in the region or the geopolitics with America. What side of the civil war was she on? Who sent the missile? Did the missile hit the right target? Did Tony have anything to do with selling this weapons? We don't know and if she does have opinions on the why isn't spoken to them with the Avengers or Vision? Was she tricked by HYDRA to hate Stark? What did they say to her? What did she know about HYDRA? Loads of juicy material for Marvel to milk but they are uninterested in touching. They're barely able to get a super-villain to condemn her for working with HYDRA, for her "friends" doing it. Cap will defend her to the death, but Wanda hasn't shown the slightest interest in emotionally being vulnerable to him like Widow did, despite being on the team for years with him. Stark is notorious for getting yelled at by people through any movie with him in it, and he changes - Wanda doesn't do this. She is violent with people who do this with her, in fact. Except Vision, then she'll gaslight and manipulate him. What are Wanda's feeling for HYDRA after Age of Ultron? I'd like to know.
Wanda has been an Avenger for years, she is the Avengers. No status should allow her to commit crimes, including destroying a man's identity in WV. Certainly not to commit murder for terrorist groups like HYDRA and Ultron. Since being a target for her is as ambiguous as being on a super-hero team with no connect to Stark Industries like the Avengers, once Wanda was finished with the Avengers it's likely people like Happy and Pepper would be next and anyone working at the company. Tat's where she was headed before Ultron switched to destroying humanity and she was fully on board.
Obviously the character has evolved since then as well, imo done a lot more good than bad.
She's backslid in WV and now is ominously learning from the Darkhold. The only time she's paid for her crimes was in Civil War, which was made to look cartoonishly wrong for doing so and then immediately broke out by Cap himself. What's frustrating with MCU Wanda is that she could be more of a hero but Marvel just drops the ball and doesn't truly let her change, she still follows the same paths as her Age of Ultron self. They really shouldn't have made her so evil in Age of Ultron, because keeping her character just begs the question why should the Avengers keep her around if she's this much of a threat? And now she's levelled up.
Right? Some characters aren't even written consistently within the same book series or under the same writers. Two different writers can have completely different ideas about what makes a character great.
Wanda's not Taskmaster with continuity flubs in the comics. She acts nothing like MCU Wanda. 616 Wanda is the heart of the Avengers, rivalling Janet van Dyne in her connections to other members. She's open with her feelings, she reaches out when she's distraught, she goes to therapy, and she has numerous deep connections to numerous Avengers and even does this to new Avengers when she's in distress - like when she was upset about Vision to T'Challa despite the fact he's still new to the group and didn't know Vision that well in West Coast Avengers. Her close relationship with Hawkeye is legendary in the comics. This characterisation continued even in runs by controversial creators like Byrne and Bendis. What run in 616 is anything like MCU Wanda?
That's a lot of words to say you wish it was a certain way, when plenty of people like MCU Wanda as presented. I don't know how you can attached to a character's specific traits in the comics when they'll behave wildly different between comic runs. Some of the most successful and seminal works have them acting completely out of character. Expecting a show or movie with limited runtime and massive casts to hit all the nuance of 50+ years of comic history is a bit much.
That's a lot of words to say you wish it was a certain way, when plenty of people like MCU Wanda as presented.
Nothing to do with wishes, and this isn't about how you "like" the character. This is about how the character acts and the environment around then reacts to them. What have I said that was false? Wanda was a villain when she worked with Ultron and HYDRA, this shouldn't be a controversial statement. She's also the villain in WV.
I don't know how you can attached to a character's specific traits in the comics when they'll behave wildly different between comic runs. Some of the most successful and seminal works have them acting completely out of character.
True, but what comics does this apply to Wanda in? If you know 616 comics where Wanda acts like this now's the time to name them. Characters definitely have consistent traits over the years, the may be occasional creators who are exceptions but status quo is king.
Expecting a show or movie with limited runtime and massive casts to hit all the nuance of 50+ years of comic history is a bit much.
Nothing I've said would be impossible by any stretch in the movies and definitely not in a tv show like WV. Nobody's forcing the WV show runner that they must have her be a monster or that they can't explain her origins and motivations more clearly. They do this, they just don't go far enough. I'm not expecting them to do everything like the comics, just have her be recognisable and not someone who the Avengers should keep a eye on before they have put her down because she's too dangerous to live. Post WV she's now moving towards Marvel's Godzilla.
The bomb that killed her parents and trapped her and Pietro for days having "STARK" on it , might have helped with her whole hate for Stark thing..
Yeah, that part rings true to me. Especially the fact that Stark is such a huge presence in the world after.
I mean, imagine little Wanda and little Pietro seeing that face and name on the news all the time. That's gonna lead to some feelings.
Also bear in mind that they would only be young teens (12 or 13) when Tony Stark came out as Iron Man, the unstoppable killing machine. They watched the world rejoice and extol the guy they blamed for their parents’ death.
The bomb that killed her parents and trapped her and Pietro for days having "STARK" on it , might have helped with her whole hate for Stark thing..
Yeah, that part rings true to me. Especially the fact that Stark is such a huge presence in the world after.
I mean, imagine little Wanda and little Pietro seeing that face and name on the news all the time. That's gonna lead to some feelings.
Also bear in mind that they would only be young teens (12 or 13) when Tony Stark came out as Iron Man, the unstoppable killing machine. They watched the world rejoice and extol the guy they blamed for their parents’ death.
Except their feelings about the war wouldn't end with Stark, terrorists learn about what state their country is in and picks sides, they have some curiosity about how they lives got to that situation. They don't just blame a symbol on a weapon and stop thinking. And why wouldn't the be invested in find out exactly who launched that missile? They're not stupid enough to think Stark did that as adults, they understand the concepts of wars. Stark would be further down the list than the person who launched that missile and how does that led to them wanting to murder anyone who nows Stark which isn't at the company? And why wouldn't they blame the company who made it, instead it's just Stark.
FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
And if they had gone after Stark, instead of joining a terrorist cell (that they or may not have known was Nazis), and then an omnicidal robot that also hated Stark but also coincidentally everything else, She may have had a point to stand on.
You're moving the goalposts. We were talking about the inherent danger of the Hulk, not his reliability of showing up, nor his relationship with Banner. Danger from a lack of Hulk is not danger that originates from the Hulk.
And ultimately, whether or not blame can be applied to the Avengers is immaterial to the fact that Wanda acted with intent to negatively influence the Hulk. She chose to do that. Nobody forced her into it. She made that choice, and had she not done so, the entire thing wouldn't have happened.
If they're in a situation where they need hulk to save lives, like maybe... A space army is attacking Wakanda, it's as dangerous if hulk can't be relied on. I'm not moving any posts, I'm saying it was pretty irresponsible to have Banner out in the field before he could get a handle on his powers, kinda like using the stone to make Ultron, etc. They were very much doing whatever they wanted.
We're talking about whether the Hulk is a danger to others, not whether or not the Hulk is a reliable means of guarding against external threats.
Banner not being able to Hulk out has absolutely NOTHING to do with whether or not it was irresponsible to have him waiting in the wings in South Africa, which is what the argument we're having is about. We're talking about Wanda's actions here. Banner not being able to Hulk out would have stymied Wanda, not helped her.
People are just laying a whole lot at Wanda's feet while ignoring the context that lead to those events and who else had to fuck up for Hulk to even be in a position to go crazy.
She was the one who unleashed the Hulk. Not Tony, not Banner, not Ultron, not Pietro. It was Wanda. That was an action she chose to take that endangered an entire city and likely would have lead to a lot of death had Tony not stepped up to defend them. There's no mitigation with that act, Wanda took the biggest action she could and damn the consequences. You are bending over backwards to excuse Wanda of culpability, for some reason I can't fathom.
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RingoHe/Hima distinct lack of substanceRegistered Userregular
The bomb that killed her parents and trapped her and Pietro for days having "STARK" on it , might have helped with her whole hate for Stark thing..
Yeah, that part rings true to me. Especially the fact that Stark is such a huge presence in the world after.
I mean, imagine little Wanda and little Pietro seeing that face and name on the news all the time. That's gonna lead to some feelings.
Also bear in mind that they would only be young teens (12 or 13) when Tony Stark came out as Iron Man, the unstoppable killing machine. They watched the world rejoice and extol the guy they blamed for their parents’ death.
Except their feelings about the war wouldn't end with Stark, terrorists learn about what state their country is in and picks sides, they have some curiosity about how they lives got to that situation. They don't just blame a symbol on a weapon and stop thinking. And why wouldn't the be invested in find out exactly who launched that missile? They're not stupid enough to think Stark did that as adults, they understand the concepts of wars. Stark would be further down the list than the person who launched that missile and how does that led to them wanting to murder anyone who nows Stark which isn't at the company? And why wouldn't they blame the company who made it, instead it's just Stark.
The twins didn't go after anyone. The Avengers attacked them, Wanda decided to mind whammy Stark because fuck that guy, and then they peaced out. It wasn't until Ultron approached them that they were doing anything and it was again the Avengers attacking them in South Africa. It's definitely on the twins for what Hulk did in joburg (and that is a huge black mark on them), but they then proceed to flip on Ultron immediately after figuring out what he was up to.
Nobody in the MCU should like Stark, the twins aren't even all that special in that regard - but the twins didn't go after Stark at all. That was all Tony chasing down Ultron
I simply read the scene different than you. She wanted to fuck with hulk for sure but level a city? You're extrapolating a lot from a finger waggle. Again had tony not placed Banner in harm's way (after already seeing him get brainwashed once) it may have been avoided, but he then used a machine to beat hulk into submission. In the movie, it's an excuse for them to bust out Hulkbuster armor.
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RingoHe/Hima distinct lack of substanceRegistered Userregular
I simply read the scene different than you. She wanted to fuck with hulk for sure but level a city? You're extrapolating a lot from a finger waggle. Again had tony not placed Banner in harm's way (after already seeing him get brainwashed once) it may have been avoided, but he then used a machine to beat hulk into submission. In the movie, it's an excuse for them to bust out Hulkbuster armor.
What else would you mind control Banner and force him to Hulk out for?
"I want the big one." Wanda wanted to fuck with the Hulk. She deliberately set off that bomb. That's all the Hulk is and that's what she did.
I simply read the scene different than you. She wanted to fuck with hulk for sure but level a city? You're extrapolating a lot from a finger waggle. Again had tony not placed Banner in harm's way (after already seeing him get brainwashed once) it may have been avoided, but he then used a machine to beat hulk into submission. In the movie, it's an excuse for them to bust out Hulkbuster armor.
What else would you mind control Banner and force him to Hulk out for?
"I want the big one." Wanda wanted to fuck with the Hulk. She deliberately set off that bomb. That's all the Hulk is and that's what she did.
She didn't mind control him. She showed him his greatest fear. Hulk wasn't ready for that, and went crazy. Like I said, tony got wanda-zapped and didn't turn into a weapons grade disaster. She knew hulk's punchy punchy power was no match for her mental powers. Again, you guys simply read it differently than me, and that's ok.
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
edited March 2021
From what we actually saw in the movie, she far more likely meant for Hulk to go after the Avengers while they were distracted and disorganized. Wanda and Pietro had a beef with the Avengers, generically targeting the human race is specifically what split the twins from Ultron. Setting up a whole city for destruction is definitely more a Stark thing.
I mean, if I was going after the Avengers and I could pick any one of them to try and kill the others without hesitation and has the power to do it, I'd pick the Hulk too. None of the Avengers have done more than fight Hulk to a standstill, and Stark built a massive custom anti-Hulk suit and still wasn't able to beat Hulk, just soak up his attention until the mind whammy started to fade.
I simply read the scene different than you. She wanted to fuck with hulk for sure but level a city? You're extrapolating a lot from a finger waggle. Again had tony not placed Banner in harm's way (after already seeing him get brainwashed once) it may have been avoided, but he then used a machine to beat hulk into submission. In the movie, it's an excuse for them to bust out Hulkbuster armor.
You have to ignore a lot of context for South Africa to be a innocent "whoopsie" from Wanda.
Firstly, she says she wants "the big one" She isn't gunning for Banner, she's gunning for the Hulk. There's zero reason to want Banner to Hulk out unless she wants him to wreck stuff. Seriously, the idea that she just wanted the Hulk to stumble around in a fugue state is completely ridiculous.
Secondly, she at no point indicates that the Hulk's rampage was not her intention, proffers an alternate take on how things were supposed to go, or even offers anything resembling remorse or regret for putting all of those people in harm's way, which you'd think she would if it was unintentional.
And again, whether not blame can be ascribed to the Avengers is ultimately irrelevant, it was still Wanda who made the decision in the end. Her choices and actions. The Avengers didn't mindrape the Hulk, that was Wanda.
Also if you want to talk about the metatextual reasons for things existing in the film, Wanda is a villain at that part of the movie, doing villainous things. She's not some imp causing mischief. She's out to ruin and destroy the Avengers. That's her role in the story at that point.
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RingoHe/Hima distinct lack of substanceRegistered Userregular
I simply read the scene different than you. She wanted to fuck with hulk for sure but level a city? You're extrapolating a lot from a finger waggle. Again had tony not placed Banner in harm's way (after already seeing him get brainwashed once) it may have been avoided, but he then used a machine to beat hulk into submission. In the movie, it's an excuse for them to bust out Hulkbuster armor.
What else would you mind control Banner and force him to Hulk out for?
"I want the big one." Wanda wanted to fuck with the Hulk. She deliberately set off that bomb. That's all the Hulk is and that's what she did.
She didn't mind control him. She showed him his greatest fear. Hulk wasn't ready for that, and went crazy. Like I said, tony got wanda-zapped and didn't turn into a weapons grade disaster. She knew hulk's punchy punchy power was no match for her mental powers. Again, you guys simply read it differently than me, and that's ok.
IMO she purposefully attacks and mentally destabilizes Banner at the very least, when Banner is not part of the conflict. At that point Banner/Hulk are no longer responsible for their actions and it's Wanda who is liable for what happens.
Just to make sure I'm not crazy, I'm watching AoU right now. Immediately after the initial big team up to fight Strucker, they send Nat to calm Hulk because she's the only one who can. That's a full blown member of the Avengers, who can only come back to his sense by having a specific person talk them down.
Also, Tony gets out of his suit for literally no reason which allows him to get surprised by Wanda. Also also, Wanda sees exactly what Tony sees and is honestly horrified.
Cap even makes a joke about the similarities between his origin and the twins. "who would let a german scientist experiment on them to protect their country?"
The twins are intentionally written to make you question who is in the right, and it turns out the Avengers and Tony aren't always right. Tony specifically does not consult the team about making Ultron, he just does it. The twins don't exist without Tony, full stop. Trying to remove him from the equation is removing context.
Just to make sure I'm not crazy, I'm watching AoU right now. Immediately after the initial big team up to fight Strucker, they send Nat to calm Hulk because she's the only one who can. That's a full blown member of the Avengers, who can only come back to his sense by having a specific person talk them down.
You don't know that.
Thor, in the very least, also knew about the "Sun's getting low" method. It's entirely possible the Hulk just responds to Nat the best so she's first up. By that point in the movie the entire team, aside from Hawkeye, was down, and Clint was busy taking of his teammates. So Stark had to go with plan B.
Also, Tony gets out of his suit for literally no reason which allows him to get surprised by Wanda. Also also, Wanda sees exactly what Tony sees and is honestly horrified.
Cap even makes a joke about the similarities between his origin and the twins. "who would let a german scientist experiment on them to protect their country?"
The twins are intentionally written to make you question who is in the right, and it turns out the Avengers and Tony aren't always right. Tony specifically does not consult the team about making Ultron, he just does it. The twins don't exist without Tony, full stop. Trying to remove him from the equation is removing context.
Tony Stark did not mind control Wanda, she is still responsible for her actions and deeds.
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I know it's like the one bad thing she's ever done.
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If she didn't want her share of the atrocity she never should have made him mad?
I feel like Black Panther does a lot of heavy lifting for Klaue. He showed up in AoU but he was kind of a shitty merc type with no personality. But in BP he was absolutely amazing, and yeah, I wish they hadn't killed him off.
As I recall, Rogers cut him off.
It might have been next in the PowerPoint.
The actress playing Agnes was great. I enjoyed every moment of her on screen, especially pre-witching.
Darcy was fun, but I didn't feel like she bounced off Agent Woo the way she did Jane. He's a bit of a goofball himself which is, I think, the issue. Still fun to see them both though.
Looking forward to Falcon and Bucky. People snarking at each other and punching faces is always my jam.
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That doesn't absolve a terror attack on a major city. If you want to blame Tony, go for it. You don't get to go on a murder spree if somebody forgets to lock their gun safe.
Stark did a LOT to mitigate the potential damage. I'm not even sure if anyone died. Basically they tore up a couple buildings and streets, scared the holy hell out of the locals and demolished an under construction skyscraper that Stark payed for in full.
Dude, she didn't just twinkle her fingers, she enhanced the Hulk. Watch the scene where he calms down again, he visibly shrinks down to a less roided out Hulk.
Did she intend for the Hulk to go on a rampage, or just for him to suffer crippling self doubt and leave the team? Not that this would absolve her entirely, but it puts her crime in different ballparks
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You don't get to use a weapon in the first place if you can't control it. Up to that point they had no reason to believe Bruce could control Hulk. Keep in mind Tony was also shown his worst fears and he didn't turn around and blow up a city.
Other than Harlem. And the Battle of New York. And the battle against Hydra in the beginning of AoE. And likely whatever activities they got up to between films.
You mean the same battle of NY where right before, hulk nearly turned Nat into paste? He couldn't even turn when he needed to in IW. Like Hulk wasn't flying, he was falling with style. He didn't have control until Endgame.
Because of the Mind Stone which nearly turned everyone against each other, not just the Hulk?
?
So the Hulk choosing NOT to fight is an example of how he's out of control and shouldn't be brought anywhere? Also, right before that was Ragnarok, where the Hulk, you know, actually listened to his friends and did what they told him, even and up to ignoring a big monster he desperately wanted to Smash.
Hulk in ragnarok is still struggling with his superiority complex, and it's an excellent arc but he's not in love with being part of Banner
And ultimately, whether or not blame can be applied to the Avengers is immaterial to the fact that Wanda acted with intent to negatively influence the Hulk. She chose to do that. Nobody forced her into it. She made that choice, and had she not done so, the entire thing wouldn't have happened.
If they're in a situation where they need hulk to save lives, like maybe... A space army is attacking Wakanda, it's as dangerous if hulk can't be relied on. I'm not moving any posts, I'm saying it was pretty irresponsible to have Banner out in the field before he could get a handle on his powers, kinda like using the stone to make Ultron, etc. They were very much doing whatever they wanted.
People are just laying a whole lot at Wanda's feet while ignoring the context that lead to those events and who else had to fuck up for Hulk to even be in a position to go crazy.
We don't know anything about what Wanda thought when she was in HYDRA, it's a large gap Marvel's ignored. SHIELD being infiltrated by HYDRA is not anything like joining HYDRA, that's why HYDRA had to hide itself. It knew if people recognised its people they'd get hunted down for being terrorists. HYDRA didn't hide anything from Wanda, it's not von Strucker's cell was anything less then a terrorist cell. Von Strucker himself had to reign in the twins from killing the Avengers, they were that blood thirsty and Wanda was worse by far than Pietro. At no point have the films established Wanda was brainwashed, either, HYDRA only did as program of brainwashing super-villains in Agents of SHIELD and that was nebulously connected with the films and it kept breaking continuity further and further until Fiege cut it off completely by taking over Marvel TV. The Snap never happened n AOS, or any of the tv shows. Agent Carter is an exception since Fiege directly worked on that.
She was itching to unleash the Hulk to cause massive destruction, which is her default state as a super-villain in the movie. Pietro's the impulsive jerk, she's the one who'll kill you without blinking twice. She's not dumb, she knew what was doing. Except they were able to control the Hulk, Wanda broke that hold deliberately to cause chaos and destruction - that's why she fit in with HYDRA and Ultron so well. This was scuttled in the third act when the writers remembered she was supposed to be an Avenger so now they must give her the flimsiest excuse to turn on Ultron and forgive everything she did if she fought with the Avengers because she's useful. All that she did was implied to be wiped clean, she gets to live her life peacefully without showing any remorse, unlike Widow or Bucky, admit to people what she was wrong or do what she had to to fix the lives she ruined. Which includes killing soldiers via Hulk. It was a method which worked, Wanda just did to him what Ultron tried to do with nuclear bombs.
The twins resentment to Stark made no sense. No terrorist is so since minded to focus their anger on a manufacturer of a weapon over the local or broader politics which put that weapon into play. Politics which she done some protests in, but we never hear her thoughts on politics in the region or the geopolitics with America. What side of the civil war was she on? Who sent the missile? Did the missile hit the right target? Did Tony have anything to do with selling this weapons? We don't know and if she does have opinions on the why isn't spoken to them with the Avengers or Vision? Was she tricked by HYDRA to hate Stark? What did they say to her? What did she know about HYDRA? Loads of juicy material for Marvel to milk but they are uninterested in touching. They're barely able to get a super-villain to condemn her for working with HYDRA, for her "friends" doing it. Cap will defend her to the death, but Wanda hasn't shown the slightest interest in emotionally being vulnerable to him like Widow did, despite being on the team for years with him. Stark is notorious for getting yelled at by people through any movie with him in it, and he changes - Wanda doesn't do this. She is violent with people who do this with her, in fact. Except Vision, then she'll gaslight and manipulate him. What are Wanda's feeling for HYDRA after Age of Ultron? I'd like to know.
Wanda has been an Avenger for years, she is the Avengers. No status should allow her to commit crimes, including destroying a man's identity in WV. Certainly not to commit murder for terrorist groups like HYDRA and Ultron. Since being a target for her is as ambiguous as being on a super-hero team with no connect to Stark Industries like the Avengers, once Wanda was finished with the Avengers it's likely people like Happy and Pepper would be next and anyone working at the company. Tat's where she was headed before Ultron switched to destroying humanity and she was fully on board.
She's backslid in WV and now is ominously learning from the Darkhold. The only time she's paid for her crimes was in Civil War, which was made to look cartoonishly wrong for doing so and then immediately broke out by Cap himself. What's frustrating with MCU Wanda is that she could be more of a hero but Marvel just drops the ball and doesn't truly let her change, she still follows the same paths as her Age of Ultron self. They really shouldn't have made her so evil in Age of Ultron, because keeping her character just begs the question why should the Avengers keep her around if she's this much of a threat? And now she's levelled up.
Wanda's not Taskmaster with continuity flubs in the comics. She acts nothing like MCU Wanda. 616 Wanda is the heart of the Avengers, rivalling Janet van Dyne in her connections to other members. She's open with her feelings, she reaches out when she's distraught, she goes to therapy, and she has numerous deep connections to numerous Avengers and even does this to new Avengers when she's in distress - like when she was upset about Vision to T'Challa despite the fact he's still new to the group and didn't know Vision that well in West Coast Avengers. Her close relationship with Hawkeye is legendary in the comics. This characterisation continued even in runs by controversial creators like Byrne and Bendis. What run in 616 is anything like MCU Wanda?
Nothing to do with wishes, and this isn't about how you "like" the character. This is about how the character acts and the environment around then reacts to them. What have I said that was false? Wanda was a villain when she worked with Ultron and HYDRA, this shouldn't be a controversial statement. She's also the villain in WV.
True, but what comics does this apply to Wanda in? If you know 616 comics where Wanda acts like this now's the time to name them. Characters definitely have consistent traits over the years, the may be occasional creators who are exceptions but status quo is king.
Nothing I've said would be impossible by any stretch in the movies and definitely not in a tv show like WV. Nobody's forcing the WV show runner that they must have her be a monster or that they can't explain her origins and motivations more clearly. They do this, they just don't go far enough. I'm not expecting them to do everything like the comics, just have her be recognisable and not someone who the Avengers should keep a eye on before they have put her down because she's too dangerous to live. Post WV she's now moving towards Marvel's Godzilla.
Which time? Up to you I guess
I mean, imagine little Wanda and little Pietro seeing that face and name on the news all the time. That's gonna lead to some feelings.
Also bear in mind that they would only be young teens (12 or 13) when Tony Stark came out as Iron Man, the unstoppable killing machine. They watched the world rejoice and extol the guy they blamed for their parents’ death.
Except their feelings about the war wouldn't end with Stark, terrorists learn about what state their country is in and picks sides, they have some curiosity about how they lives got to that situation. They don't just blame a symbol on a weapon and stop thinking. And why wouldn't the be invested in find out exactly who launched that missile? They're not stupid enough to think Stark did that as adults, they understand the concepts of wars. Stark would be further down the list than the person who launched that missile and how does that led to them wanting to murder anyone who nows Stark which isn't at the company? And why wouldn't they blame the company who made it, instead it's just Stark.
It's not that kind of movie, kid
We're talking about whether the Hulk is a danger to others, not whether or not the Hulk is a reliable means of guarding against external threats.
Banner not being able to Hulk out has absolutely NOTHING to do with whether or not it was irresponsible to have him waiting in the wings in South Africa, which is what the argument we're having is about. We're talking about Wanda's actions here. Banner not being able to Hulk out would have stymied Wanda, not helped her.
She was the one who unleashed the Hulk. Not Tony, not Banner, not Ultron, not Pietro. It was Wanda. That was an action she chose to take that endangered an entire city and likely would have lead to a lot of death had Tony not stepped up to defend them. There's no mitigation with that act, Wanda took the biggest action she could and damn the consequences. You are bending over backwards to excuse Wanda of culpability, for some reason I can't fathom.
The twins didn't go after anyone. The Avengers attacked them, Wanda decided to mind whammy Stark because fuck that guy, and then they peaced out. It wasn't until Ultron approached them that they were doing anything and it was again the Avengers attacking them in South Africa. It's definitely on the twins for what Hulk did in joburg (and that is a huge black mark on them), but they then proceed to flip on Ultron immediately after figuring out what he was up to.
Nobody in the MCU should like Stark, the twins aren't even all that special in that regard - but the twins didn't go after Stark at all. That was all Tony chasing down Ultron
What else would you mind control Banner and force him to Hulk out for?
"I want the big one." Wanda wanted to fuck with the Hulk. She deliberately set off that bomb. That's all the Hulk is and that's what she did.
She didn't mind control him. She showed him his greatest fear. Hulk wasn't ready for that, and went crazy. Like I said, tony got wanda-zapped and didn't turn into a weapons grade disaster. She knew hulk's punchy punchy power was no match for her mental powers. Again, you guys simply read it differently than me, and that's ok.
I mean, if I was going after the Avengers and I could pick any one of them to try and kill the others without hesitation and has the power to do it, I'd pick the Hulk too. None of the Avengers have done more than fight Hulk to a standstill, and Stark built a massive custom anti-Hulk suit and still wasn't able to beat Hulk, just soak up his attention until the mind whammy started to fade.
You have to ignore a lot of context for South Africa to be a innocent "whoopsie" from Wanda.
Firstly, she says she wants "the big one" She isn't gunning for Banner, she's gunning for the Hulk. There's zero reason to want Banner to Hulk out unless she wants him to wreck stuff. Seriously, the idea that she just wanted the Hulk to stumble around in a fugue state is completely ridiculous.
Secondly, she at no point indicates that the Hulk's rampage was not her intention, proffers an alternate take on how things were supposed to go, or even offers anything resembling remorse or regret for putting all of those people in harm's way, which you'd think she would if it was unintentional.
And again, whether not blame can be ascribed to the Avengers is ultimately irrelevant, it was still Wanda who made the decision in the end. Her choices and actions. The Avengers didn't mindrape the Hulk, that was Wanda.
Also if you want to talk about the metatextual reasons for things existing in the film, Wanda is a villain at that part of the movie, doing villainous things. She's not some imp causing mischief. She's out to ruin and destroy the Avengers. That's her role in the story at that point.
IMO she purposefully attacks and mentally destabilizes Banner at the very least, when Banner is not part of the conflict. At that point Banner/Hulk are no longer responsible for their actions and it's Wanda who is liable for what happens.
Also, Tony gets out of his suit for literally no reason which allows him to get surprised by Wanda. Also also, Wanda sees exactly what Tony sees and is honestly horrified.
Cap even makes a joke about the similarities between his origin and the twins. "who would let a german scientist experiment on them to protect their country?"
The twins are intentionally written to make you question who is in the right, and it turns out the Avengers and Tony aren't always right. Tony specifically does not consult the team about making Ultron, he just does it. The twins don't exist without Tony, full stop. Trying to remove him from the equation is removing context.
You don't know that.
Thor, in the very least, also knew about the "Sun's getting low" method. It's entirely possible the Hulk just responds to Nat the best so she's first up. By that point in the movie the entire team, aside from Hawkeye, was down, and Clint was busy taking of his teammates. So Stark had to go with plan B.
Tony Stark did not mind control Wanda, she is still responsible for her actions and deeds.