Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
I don't think / hope she isn't Madame Hydra in this. I'd prefer she's the new Nick Fury going forward.
We don't need a new Nick Fury, but we do need a new hydra, and honestly her being an annoying to close to your face don't call me I'll call you babe, nazi is perfect.
Yeah, we still have a Nick Fury.
Nick Fury.
Munkus Beaver on
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
In Age of Ultron, when they realized Wakanda was involved, Steve and Tony instantly know Vibranium is involved, so Howard's vibranium find had to be in Wakanda.
Not at all. At that point in time, it was known in the underworld that Klau stole a pile of vibranium from Wakanda (though the thinking is that it was all of Wakanda's vibranium). SHIELD would know, so Rogers would know. Stark would also certainly know or at least have that info in his databases, which is how Ultron would a) know what vibranium even is (it's totally unknown in the MCU world outside Wakanda and a handful of other people), b) what it can do (from Howard and/or Tony experimenting with the shield), and c) know who to find to get it.
Howard's own sample that produced the shield could've easily come from another long-lost Wakandan artifact like the one stolen in Black Panther. It would be pretty impossible that a society as successful as Wakanda wouldn't have let at least a handful of vibranium items get lost over thousands of years and all it would take is any of hundreds of thousands of greedy European explorers to find one over hundreds of years of pillaging the continent, swipe it, and sell it off to a museum or private collector with a murky or unknown history. Then it would just wait for Howard to come along, see the weapon made of the strange metal, and drop a fortune buying it up to research it. Zero reason he had to know it came from Wakanda.
You could make strong arguments for both the shield as government property and as Steve's property.
However, that issue was mooted* by Sam giving up the shield at the beginning—whichever theory you follow, Sam donated the shield to the Smithsonian and it thereby became (or was returned as) government property.
I went into this a few weeks back, but donating something to the Smithsonian doesn't make it some kind of general use "government property," it makes it the property of the Smithsonian Institution, and there would be serious ramifications if the regents or secretary gave a donated object to a third party.
Let not any one pacify his conscience by the delusion that he can do no harm if he takes no part, and forms no opinion.
- John Stuart Mill
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Dark Raven XLaugh hard, run fast,be kindRegistered Userregular
I figure Wakanda repaired the shield after Thanos broke it and gave it Cap. Doesn't answer the question of who legally owns it now, but Sam was the legal owner after Steve gave it to him at the end if Endgame.
It's a new shield Steve picked up somewhere along his Infinity Stone return trip. Subtly different design (more lines n' divots) so his original is presumably still floating around too, in pieces or repaired.
Does somewhat beg the question why no one seems to question it's authenticity. Like they're putting it in a museum, but it won't match historical photos of the thing.
Oh brilliant
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
You could make strong arguments for both the shield as government property and as Steve's property.
However, that issue was mooted* by Sam giving up the shield at the beginning—whichever theory you follow, Sam donated the shield to the Smithsonian and it thereby became (or was returned as) government property.
I went into this a few weeks back, but donating something to the Smithsonian doesn't make it some kind of general use "government property," it makes it the property of the Smithsonian Institution, and there would be serious ramifications if the regents or secretary gave a donated object to a third party.
Eh, Senator Asshole probably set that up and just went "hey, help us trick this guy out of the shield and we'll slip you a million extra dollars in funding". Then it would just be a matter of setting up the nebulous paperwork such that the Smithsonian agrees the US government is the permanent owner and the shield is on loan indefinitely, then the government just snaps up the shield after Sam is out of the area.
It’s been a while since I’ve seen First Avenger, but doesn’t Howard say that that lump of vibranium he turned into a shield was originally a gift from Wakanda to FDR?
In Age of Ultron, when they realized Wakanda was involved, Steve and Tony instantly know Vibranium is involved, so Howard's vibranium find had to be in Wakanda.
Not at all. At that point in time, it was known in the underworld that Klau stole a pile of vibranium from Wakanda (though the thinking is that it was all of Wakanda's vibranium). SHIELD would know, so Rogers would know. Stark would also certainly know or at least have that info in his databases, which is how Ultron would a) know what vibranium even is (it's totally unknown in the MCU world outside Wakanda and a handful of other people), b) what it can do (from Howard and/or Tony experimenting with the shield), and c) know who to find to get it.
Except they specifically say "I thought your father got the last of it." and not "Wasn't it rumored Klau stole a bunch of vibranium."
Wakanda may not have let people know that was their Vibranium until the Ultron incident happened.
It’s been a while since I’ve seen First Avenger, but doesn’t Howard say that that lump of vibranium he turned into a shield was originally a gift from Wakanda to FDR?
He answers to the effect of "That's the rarest metal on earth. That's all we've got.". Pre Black Panther and anything regarding Klau, I just kind of assumed vibranium could be found anywhere on the planet, just in absolute miniscule amounts, and the shield is literally all the vibranium they've been able to find ever. Post Black Panther, I suppose the argument is there that the vibranium meteor in Wakanda could be the only source of vibranium, so any amount must have come from there at some point.
"The sausage of Green Earth explodes with flavor like the cannon of culinary delight."
It’s been a while since I’ve seen First Avenger, but doesn’t Howard say that that lump of vibranium he turned into a shield was originally a gift from Wakanda to FDR?
The dialogue about "supremacist" no other adjective may be the worst writing on the show just behind madame hydra's introduction
It's inconsistent with a number of things imo.
Knowing what we do about Zemo you'd assume he's talking about how since Karli has the serum in her he thinks that her goal is make as many super soldiers as she can. Except even though she felt like they needed more in order to pursue her actual goals I don't think Zemo was right so imo his "supremacist" theory continues to be bullshit.
That isn't to say that Karli is justified in her actions. She's clearly gone over the edge. But from everything we've seen she isn't interested is supremacy. She interested in saying "Fuck you" to the idea that everyone who got displaced after the un-snap just has to deal.
I think she's wrong, and additionally she's a monster that has crossed multiple lines, but I don't think supremacy is a part of her ideology in any way shape or form.
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-Loki-Don't pee in my mouth and tell me it's raining.Registered Userregular
Steve's shield was intact when he stepped on the platform to return the stones. It was never destroyed, only severely damaged, so I guess Wakanda repaired it as a thank you.
Since it hasn't come up on the show at all, I think it's safe to assume that it's the OG shield, just reforged/upgraded.
The dialogue about "supremacist" no other adjective may be the worst writing on the show just behind madame hydra's introduction
It's inconsistent with a number of things imo.
Knowing what we do about Zemo you'd assume he's talking about how since Karli has the serum in her he thinks that her goal is make as many super soldiers as she can. Except even though she felt like they needed more in order to pursue her actual goals I don't think Zemo was right so imo his "supremacist" theory continues to be bullshit.
That isn't to say that Karli is justified in her actions. She's clearly gone over the edge. But from everything we've seen she isn't interested is supremacy. She interested in saying "Fuck you" to the idea that everyone who got displaced after the un-snap just has to deal.
I think she's wrong, and additionally she's a monster that has crossed multiple lines, but I don't think supremacy is a part of her ideology in any way shape or form.
I think Zemo's point is that she intends to achieve her goals by using super powers to subjugate regular people. He thinks that simply being a super inherently makes you at least partly a supremacist.
I think so much of this show is fascinating when looking at the reality of the world. Karli keeps saying they don't have another path. Sam tries to tell her there is, but then we see that clearly the "refugees" are going to get screwed over no matter what. The leader thinks that they don't even need to vote its such a foregone conclusion.
Also someone in this thread was talking about Walker's "privilege", but I just don't see it. I felt like the show went out of its way to show that from a military perspective this guy had done everything ever asked of him, and it kind of made sense he would be chosen as the next captain America.
I think so much of this show is fascinating when looking at the reality of the world. Karli keeps saying they don't have another path. Sam tries to tell her there is, but then we see that clearly the "refugees" are going to get screwed over no matter what. The leader thinks that they don't even need to vote its such a foregone conclusion.
Also someone in this thread was talking about Walker's "privilege", but I just don't see it. I felt like the show went out of its way to show that from a military perspective this guy had done everything ever asked of him, and it kind of made sense he would be chosen as the next captain America.
If you're having trouble seeing John's privilege, ask yourself two questions;
1) Why didn't they pick Lemar? The show notes that Lemar had been with Walker since the beginning and accomplished the exact same things.
2) If the government was so keen on having a new Cap, why not just convince Sam to do it? For all of Walker's accomplishments, he isn't the one who helped save the world twice.
I think so much of this show is fascinating when looking at the reality of the world. Karli keeps saying they don't have another path. Sam tries to tell her there is, but then we see that clearly the "refugees" are going to get screwed over no matter what. The leader thinks that they don't even need to vote its such a foregone conclusion.
Also someone in this thread was talking about Walker's "privilege", but I just don't see it. I felt like the show went out of its way to show that from a military perspective this guy had done everything ever asked of him, and it kind of made sense he would be chosen as the next captain America.
If you're having trouble seeing John's privilege, ask yourself two questions;
1) Why didn't they pick Lemar? The show notes that Lemar had been with Walker since the beginning and accomplished the exact same things.
2) If the government was so keen on having a new Cap, why not just convince Sam to do it? For all of Walker's accomplishments, he isn't the one who helped save the world twice.
If we are talking white/racial privilege then yes, I totally see that. The show is definitely making the point that they never would have chose a black person to take over the mantle.
I don’t care how they are handling Walker’s mental health.
I wouldn’t normally complain about that aspect in a Marvel flick, but the show brought it up more than once as a plot point, so I think it’s a fair complaint to bring up. Bucky’s mental health has come up more than once, same with Sam being a counselor for former military. Hell, Bucky’s counselor personally knows Walker and yet his mental health never comes up even after Hoskins is killed.
I’m not asking the writers to do a deep dive on Soldier mental health or anything and I know it’s a highly complicated subject, but only bringing it up for the protagonists and not the antagonist feels like a misstep IMO.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
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BethrynUnhappiness is MandatoryRegistered Userregular
If this were a Jessica Jones et al style 13 episode deal, I could see us getting deeper dives on Walker's health and backstory, Karli's progression from angry idealist to supremacist ("You put words into my mouth" after "they're just one more roadblock" had me laughing out loud in its tonal whiplash), what on earth is going on with Sharon, and probably a good deal more time with Zemo.
As it is, everything that isn't about Sam (& Bucky to a lesser extent) is pretty broad strokes.
...and of course, as always, Kill Hitler.
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Doctor DetroitNot a doctorTree townRegistered Userregular
Just checked Endgame...
Original shield: no pattern on the star.
Cap does NOT have a shield when he leaves to return the stones.
Shield given to Sam by Old Man Steve: same one we’ve been seeing these last 5 episodes.
Maybe that's part of what Elaine was referring to about "its a bit of a gray area" about the shield being owned by the government, since the shield isn't even the original shield? If she's some kind of super spy, then maybe she knows something of its backstory?
The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it. ~ Terry Pratchett
You could make strong arguments for both the shield as government property and as Steve's property.
However, that issue was mooted* by Sam giving up the shield at the beginning—whichever theory you follow, Sam donated the shield to the Smithsonian and it thereby became (or was returned as) government property.
I went into this a few weeks back, but donating something to the Smithsonian doesn't make it some kind of general use "government property," it makes it the property of the Smithsonian Institution, and there would be serious ramifications if the regents or secretary gave a donated object to a third party.
Eh, Senator Asshole probably set that up and just went "hey, help us trick this guy out of the shield and we'll slip you a million extra dollars in funding". Then it would just be a matter of setting up the nebulous paperwork such that the Smithsonian agrees the US government is the permanent owner and the shield is on loan indefinitely, then the government just snaps up the shield after Sam is out of the area.
That only works out for the museum if Sam plays along. If the guy who donated the shield during a publicized ceremony comes out and accuses the Smithsonian of disposing of his donation just days after it was made (something confirmed on national television), that’s going to be a serious issue. There is no way for things to have happened as quickly as they did, without it being a clear violation of the Institute’s policies and ethical standards. There are very strict rules for when and for what reasons an item can be disposed.
If it came out that it was for what amounted to a sale behind closed doors, that’s basically career death for everyone involved; the last time something like that happened was when the Museum of Northern Arizona sold off part of their collection. In the ensuing scandal, the museum was stripped of its AAM accreditation for five years, and the entire board was forced to resign.
Let not any one pacify his conscience by the delusion that he can do no harm if he takes no part, and forms no opinion.
It seems Wakanda is going to replace Stark for ‘a wizard did it’ origins of magic level tech then.
They have 100% replaced Stark-tech with Wakanda/Shuri-tech when it comes to magic technology.
Makes sense, even if it's a little weird that Stark Industries seems to have vanished the moment Tony passed.
I think it's just because the story of what's happening with Stark Industries needs to be told properly in Armor Wars and Ironheart. Post-Endgame, Spider-Man is still driven by Stark tech at least.
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Dark Raven XLaugh hard, run fast,be kindRegistered Userregular
Steve's shield was intact when he stepped on the platform to return the stones. It was never destroyed, only severely damaged, so I guess Wakanda repaired it as a thank you.
Since it hasn't come up on the show at all, I think it's safe to assume that it's the OG shield, just reforged/upgraded.
Non, he went back with Mjolnir and a suitcase, no shield.
We first see the new one in Old Steve's possession, IMO the most likely explanation is he just yoinked it from another timeline where it had a slightly different design. Or it's the "new shield" mentioned in Spider-Man Homecoming as being on the plane leaving Avengers Tower, so maybe Old Steve found it while wandering along Coney Beach. :P
Oh brilliant
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
It just now occurs to me that since Rogers picked up a different, second shield while time traveling, what happened with the pieces of the original shield? The shield was broken, but the material wasn't destroyed. The bits are still out on that battlefield and I'm betting somebody has some kinda of vibranium detector at this point. So presumably, somebody could've retrieved the material and reforged the material into anything.
I don’t care how they are handling Walker’s mental health.
I wouldn’t normally complain about that aspect in a Marvel flick, but the show brought it up more than once as a plot point, so I think it’s a fair complaint to bring up. Bucky’s mental health has come up more than once, same with Sam being a counselor for former military. Hell, Bucky’s counselor personally knows Walker and yet his mental health never comes up even after Hoskins is killed.
I’m not asking the writers to do a deep dive on Soldier mental health or anything and I know it’s a highly complicated subject, but only bringing it up for the protagonists and not the antagonist feels like a misstep IMO.
I was also pretty uncomfortable with Walker's interaction with Lamar's parents. His mom calling the extrajudicial beheading of the guy as justice for Lamar just... that whole scene felt very poorly done
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MichaelLCIn what furnace was thy brain?ChicagoRegistered Userregular
Original shield: no pattern on the star.
Cap does NOT have a shield when he leaves to return the stones.
Shield given to Sam by Old Man Steve: same one we’ve been seeing these last 5 episodes.
So Steve jumped to a time after these events and so knew Sam was ready to be Cap.
Thus taking the shield back to the past and stopping Aku giving the shield to Sam, setting up the events we've seen so far.
You could make strong arguments for both the shield as government property and as Steve's property.
However, that issue was mooted* by Sam giving up the shield at the beginning—whichever theory you follow, Sam donated the shield to the Smithsonian and it thereby became (or was returned as) government property.
I went into this a few weeks back, but donating something to the Smithsonian doesn't make it some kind of general use "government property," it makes it the property of the Smithsonian Institution, and there would be serious ramifications if the regents or secretary gave a donated object to a third party.
Eh, Senator Asshole probably set that up and just went "hey, help us trick this guy out of the shield and we'll slip you a million extra dollars in funding". Then it would just be a matter of setting up the nebulous paperwork such that the Smithsonian agrees the US government is the permanent owner and the shield is on loan indefinitely, then the government just snaps up the shield after Sam is out of the area.
That only works out for the museum if Sam plays along. If the guy who donated the shield during a publicized ceremony comes out and accuses the Smithsonian of disposing of his donation just days after it was made (something confirmed on national television), that’s going to be a serious issue. There is no way for things to have happened as quickly as they did, without it being a clear violation of the Institute’s policies and ethical standards. There are very strict rules for when and for what reasons an item can be disposed.
If it came out that it was for what amounted to a sale behind closed doors, that’s basically career death for everyone involved; the last time something like that happened was when the Museum of Northern Arizona sold off part of their collection. In the ensuing scandal, the museum was stripped of its AAM accreditation for five years, and the entire board was forced to resign.
Also, nowadays provenance is extremely important for collections development. Sam has clear chain of custody from Steve with a witness, so that isn't a problem. However, if it can be shown that the original Vibranium was gifted with any sort of strings and still legally belongs to Wakanda if they make a claim it would be returned after a court case determining ownership. It's terrible that new collections are treated in a separate standard from legacy collections like the Elgin Marbles, rather than one standard of do not thieve, but they are.
You could make strong arguments for both the shield as government property and as Steve's property.
However, that issue was mooted* by Sam giving up the shield at the beginning—whichever theory you follow, Sam donated the shield to the Smithsonian and it thereby became (or was returned as) government property.
I went into this a few weeks back, but donating something to the Smithsonian doesn't make it some kind of general use "government property," it makes it the property of the Smithsonian Institution, and there would be serious ramifications if the regents or secretary gave a donated object to a third party.
Eh, Senator Asshole probably set that up and just went "hey, help us trick this guy out of the shield and we'll slip you a million extra dollars in funding". Then it would just be a matter of setting up the nebulous paperwork such that the Smithsonian agrees the US government is the permanent owner and the shield is on loan indefinitely, then the government just snaps up the shield after Sam is out of the area.
That only works out for the museum if Sam plays along. If the guy who donated the shield during a publicized ceremony comes out and accuses the Smithsonian of disposing of his donation just days after it was made (something confirmed on national television), that’s going to be a serious issue. There is no way for things to have happened as quickly as they did, without it being a clear violation of the Institute’s policies and ethical standards. There are very strict rules for when and for what reasons an item can be disposed.
If it came out that it was for what amounted to a sale behind closed doors, that’s basically career death for everyone involved; the last time something like that happened was when the Museum of Northern Arizona sold off part of their collection. In the ensuing scandal, the museum was stripped of its AAM accreditation for five years, and the entire board was forced to resign.
Also, nowadays provenance is extremely important for collections development. Sam has clear chain of custody from Steve with a witness, so that isn't a problem. However, if it can be shown that the original Vibranium was gifted with any sort of strings and still legally belongs to Wakanda if they make a claim it would be returned after a court case determining ownership. It's terrible that new collections are treated in a separate standard from legacy collections like the Elgin Marbles, rather than one standard of do not thieve, but they are.
And even if the government had dummied up some documents to "prove" their rights to the shield, you are still looking at a somewhat lengthy investigation and possible legal battle. At the very least it would have involved a call to Sam to say, "Hey, you remember that shield you gave us last week? The State Department says they own it and have the papers to prove it. What's your side of the story?"
Also:
Let not any one pacify his conscience by the delusion that he can do no harm if he takes no part, and forms no opinion.
Did Steve get the new shield from time travel? He didn't come back via the time travel platform. He was waiting for them as an old man. Maybe he picked it up from Wakanda before going to the park bench.
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reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
I don’t care how they are handling Walker’s mental health.
I wouldn’t normally complain about that aspect in a Marvel flick, but the show brought it up more than once as a plot point, so I think it’s a fair complaint to bring up. Bucky’s mental health has come up more than once, same with Sam being a counselor for former military. Hell, Bucky’s counselor personally knows Walker and yet his mental health never comes up even after Hoskins is killed.
I’m not asking the writers to do a deep dive on Soldier mental health or anything and I know it’s a highly complicated subject, but only bringing it up for the protagonists and not the antagonist feels like a misstep IMO.
I was also pretty uncomfortable with Walker's interaction with Lamar's parents. His mom calling the extrajudicial beheading of the guy as justice for Lamar just... that whole scene felt very poorly done
I don't think that's poorly done, it's just a grieving parent reacting.
You could look at it as going back to the whole Nakajima thing, how losing a child is the worst thing. But whereas Bucky didn't have the courage to tell Yori what happened (for understandable reason, because the brainwashed version of himself was the murderer), Walker chooses to actively lie about what happened. Does he do it because he thinks it'll bring some sort of relief to Lemar's family, or because he can't admit to himself that what he did was wrong, or both? Is he using former as his justification for the latter?
Walker isn't in a place where he can admit to himself that he was wrong, so there's currently no path available for him towards healing. Bucky on the other hand fully admits that the things he was made to do were wrong and is actively trying to work on it, hard and painful as it is.
The show is, at least in my opinion, clearly depicting that there's something off with Walker ever since Lemar died and how he reacted to it, but he hasn't in any way acknowledged that himself. He needs to want help before he can get it.
If Rogers was in an alternative timeline before returning, it’s not impossible he decided to save Bucky, and therefore Howard Stark, whom could remake a new shield. It depends on how one interprets Endgame time travel I guess, but let’s not derail the thread over it please.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
Bucky is an interesting case, like the Bucky we know isn't the winter soldier. They are the same body but not the same mind, so while he physically did kill Nakajima's son, he wasn't in charge when he did it, so how do you reconcile that? That's the kind of moral question that would keep me up at night.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
It seems Wakanda is going to replace Stark for ‘a wizard did it’ origins of magic level tech then.
They have 100% replaced Stark-tech with Wakanda/Shuri-tech when it comes to magic technology.
Makes sense, even if it's a little weird that Stark Industries seems to have vanished the moment Tony passed.
With the weapons division gone Stark Industries makes personal electronics and genetically engineered Intellacrops, not nanotech self assembling spaceflight capable combat suits. Those were more of a hobby.
Steve's shield was intact when he stepped on the platform to return the stones. It was never destroyed, only severely damaged, so I guess Wakanda repaired it as a thank you.
Since it hasn't come up on the show at all, I think it's safe to assume that it's the OG shield, just reforged/upgraded.
I would have bet money that he had a broken shield when he's on the platform at the end but, uh, we're both wrong.
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Yeah, we still have a Nick Fury.
Nick Fury.
Not at all. At that point in time, it was known in the underworld that Klau stole a pile of vibranium from Wakanda (though the thinking is that it was all of Wakanda's vibranium). SHIELD would know, so Rogers would know. Stark would also certainly know or at least have that info in his databases, which is how Ultron would a) know what vibranium even is (it's totally unknown in the MCU world outside Wakanda and a handful of other people), b) what it can do (from Howard and/or Tony experimenting with the shield), and c) know who to find to get it.
Howard's own sample that produced the shield could've easily come from another long-lost Wakandan artifact like the one stolen in Black Panther. It would be pretty impossible that a society as successful as Wakanda wouldn't have let at least a handful of vibranium items get lost over thousands of years and all it would take is any of hundreds of thousands of greedy European explorers to find one over hundreds of years of pillaging the continent, swipe it, and sell it off to a museum or private collector with a murky or unknown history. Then it would just wait for Howard to come along, see the weapon made of the strange metal, and drop a fortune buying it up to research it. Zero reason he had to know it came from Wakanda.
I'm honestly astonished that he hasn't literally handed somebody his arm while making that joke yet.
I went into this a few weeks back, but donating something to the Smithsonian doesn't make it some kind of general use "government property," it makes it the property of the Smithsonian Institution, and there would be serious ramifications if the regents or secretary gave a donated object to a third party.
- John Stuart Mill
It's a new shield Steve picked up somewhere along his Infinity Stone return trip. Subtly different design (more lines n' divots) so his original is presumably still floating around too, in pieces or repaired.
Does somewhat beg the question why no one seems to question it's authenticity. Like they're putting it in a museum, but it won't match historical photos of the thing.
Eh, Senator Asshole probably set that up and just went "hey, help us trick this guy out of the shield and we'll slip you a million extra dollars in funding". Then it would just be a matter of setting up the nebulous paperwork such that the Smithsonian agrees the US government is the permanent owner and the shield is on loan indefinitely, then the government just snaps up the shield after Sam is out of the area.
Except they specifically say "I thought your father got the last of it." and not "Wasn't it rumored Klau stole a bunch of vibranium."
Wakanda may not have let people know that was their Vibranium until the Ultron incident happened.
He answers to the effect of "That's the rarest metal on earth. That's all we've got.". Pre Black Panther and anything regarding Klau, I just kind of assumed vibranium could be found anywhere on the planet, just in absolute miniscule amounts, and the shield is literally all the vibranium they've been able to find ever. Post Black Panther, I suppose the argument is there that the vibranium meteor in Wakanda could be the only source of vibranium, so any amount must have come from there at some point.
I think that was the comics..
It's inconsistent with a number of things imo.
Knowing what we do about Zemo you'd assume he's talking about how since Karli has the serum in her he thinks that her goal is make as many super soldiers as she can. Except even though she felt like they needed more in order to pursue her actual goals I don't think Zemo was right so imo his "supremacist" theory continues to be bullshit.
That isn't to say that Karli is justified in her actions. She's clearly gone over the edge. But from everything we've seen she isn't interested is supremacy. She interested in saying "Fuck you" to the idea that everyone who got displaced after the un-snap just has to deal.
I think she's wrong, and additionally she's a monster that has crossed multiple lines, but I don't think supremacy is a part of her ideology in any way shape or form.
Maybe spoken mention.
It’s on the board behind Fury in Iron Man 2 when he’s telling Stark he’s not on the team.
Since it hasn't come up on the show at all, I think it's safe to assume that it's the OG shield, just reforged/upgraded.
I think Zemo's point is that she intends to achieve her goals by using super powers to subjugate regular people. He thinks that simply being a super inherently makes you at least partly a supremacist.
They have 100% replaced Stark-tech with Wakanda/Shuri-tech when it comes to magic technology.
Makes sense, even if it's a little weird that Stark Industries seems to have vanished the moment Tony passed.
I was thinking Agent Carter, but that was Madame Masque.
Also someone in this thread was talking about Walker's "privilege", but I just don't see it. I felt like the show went out of its way to show that from a military perspective this guy had done everything ever asked of him, and it kind of made sense he would be chosen as the next captain America.
If you're having trouble seeing John's privilege, ask yourself two questions;
1) Why didn't they pick Lemar? The show notes that Lemar had been with Walker since the beginning and accomplished the exact same things.
2) If the government was so keen on having a new Cap, why not just convince Sam to do it? For all of Walker's accomplishments, he isn't the one who helped save the world twice.
If we are talking white/racial privilege then yes, I totally see that. The show is definitely making the point that they never would have chose a black person to take over the mantle.
I wouldn’t normally complain about that aspect in a Marvel flick, but the show brought it up more than once as a plot point, so I think it’s a fair complaint to bring up. Bucky’s mental health has come up more than once, same with Sam being a counselor for former military. Hell, Bucky’s counselor personally knows Walker and yet his mental health never comes up even after Hoskins is killed.
I’m not asking the writers to do a deep dive on Soldier mental health or anything and I know it’s a highly complicated subject, but only bringing it up for the protagonists and not the antagonist feels like a misstep IMO.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
As it is, everything that isn't about Sam (& Bucky to a lesser extent) is pretty broad strokes.
Original shield: no pattern on the star.
Cap does NOT have a shield when he leaves to return the stones.
Shield given to Sam by Old Man Steve: same one we’ve been seeing these last 5 episodes.
That only works out for the museum if Sam plays along. If the guy who donated the shield during a publicized ceremony comes out and accuses the Smithsonian of disposing of his donation just days after it was made (something confirmed on national television), that’s going to be a serious issue. There is no way for things to have happened as quickly as they did, without it being a clear violation of the Institute’s policies and ethical standards. There are very strict rules for when and for what reasons an item can be disposed.
If it came out that it was for what amounted to a sale behind closed doors, that’s basically career death for everyone involved; the last time something like that happened was when the Museum of Northern Arizona sold off part of their collection. In the ensuing scandal, the museum was stripped of its AAM accreditation for five years, and the entire board was forced to resign.
- John Stuart Mill
I think it's just because the story of what's happening with Stark Industries needs to be told properly in Armor Wars and Ironheart. Post-Endgame, Spider-Man is still driven by Stark tech at least.
Non, he went back with Mjolnir and a suitcase, no shield.
We first see the new one in Old Steve's possession, IMO the most likely explanation is he just yoinked it from another timeline where it had a slightly different design. Or it's the "new shield" mentioned in Spider-Man Homecoming as being on the plane leaving Avengers Tower, so maybe Old Steve found it while wandering along Coney Beach. :P
I was also pretty uncomfortable with Walker's interaction with Lamar's parents. His mom calling the extrajudicial beheading of the guy as justice for Lamar just... that whole scene felt very poorly done
So Steve jumped to a time after these events and so knew Sam was ready to be Cap.
Thus taking the shield back to the past and stopping Aku giving the shield to Sam, setting up the events we've seen so far.
Also, nowadays provenance is extremely important for collections development. Sam has clear chain of custody from Steve with a witness, so that isn't a problem. However, if it can be shown that the original Vibranium was gifted with any sort of strings and still legally belongs to Wakanda if they make a claim it would be returned after a court case determining ownership. It's terrible that new collections are treated in a separate standard from legacy collections like the Elgin Marbles, rather than one standard of do not thieve, but they are.
And even if the government had dummied up some documents to "prove" their rights to the shield, you are still looking at a somewhat lengthy investigation and possible legal battle. At the very least it would have involved a call to Sam to say, "Hey, you remember that shield you gave us last week? The State Department says they own it and have the papers to prove it. What's your side of the story?"
Also:
- John Stuart Mill
I don't think that's poorly done, it's just a grieving parent reacting.
You could look at it as going back to the whole Nakajima thing, how losing a child is the worst thing. But whereas Bucky didn't have the courage to tell Yori what happened (for understandable reason, because the brainwashed version of himself was the murderer), Walker chooses to actively lie about what happened. Does he do it because he thinks it'll bring some sort of relief to Lemar's family, or because he can't admit to himself that what he did was wrong, or both? Is he using former as his justification for the latter?
Walker isn't in a place where he can admit to himself that he was wrong, so there's currently no path available for him towards healing. Bucky on the other hand fully admits that the things he was made to do were wrong and is actively trying to work on it, hard and painful as it is.
The show is, at least in my opinion, clearly depicting that there's something off with Walker ever since Lemar died and how he reacted to it, but he hasn't in any way acknowledged that himself. He needs to want help before he can get it.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
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With the weapons division gone Stark Industries makes personal electronics and genetically engineered Intellacrops, not nanotech self assembling spaceflight capable combat suits. Those were more of a hobby.
I would have bet money that he had a broken shield when he's on the platform at the end but, uh, we're both wrong.
He only has the stones and Mjolnir. Weird.