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[MCU TV] Open spoilers for Falcon & Winter Soldier, WandaVision

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    -Tal-Tal Registered User regular
    edited April 2021
    Of course the flag smashers are a stand in for the mainstream perception of black bloc antifa protestors, come on. There's a reason they're dressed like that and there's a reason why sam looks directly into the camera and says "blood is not the answer."

    -Tal on
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    Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    I really don't think Disney/Marvel would get down with making a show that paints antifa as people who bomb places and rob banks

    We went from "idk if this show is about racism guys" to "this is clearly an allegory for how the deep state media portrays civil protest as dangerous and violent"

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    NobeardNobeard North Carolina: Failed StateRegistered User regular
    -Tal wrote: »
    Of course the flag smashers are a stand in for the mainstream perception of black bloc antifa protestors, come on. There's a reason they're dressed like that and there's a reason why sam looks directly into the camera and says "blood is not the answer."

    The Flagsmashers are all white Europeans. That are not, in any way, a stand in for black antifa protesters. That's not to say you can't draw some comparisons between then two. Protestors, activists, revolutionaries, terrorist, it's a big godsdamn topic.

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    MancingtomMancingtom Registered User regular
    I really don't think Disney/Marvel would get down with making a show that paints antifa as people who bomb places and rob banks

    We went from "idk if this show is about racism guys" to "this is clearly an allegory for how the deep state media portrays civil protest as dangerous and violent"

    And I think both takes come from the racial aspect making people uncomfortable. On one hand, you've got people who want to ignore it, and on the other, people who want to minimize it in favor of their preferred political issue.

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    monikermoniker Registered User regular
    Building new housing is going to be tough. People returning means that there is now a serious demand for new housing, but for the previous five years that demand has effectively been nil. More than just about any other sector I can think of, the snap would have completely gutted the construction industry.

    Logistically it probably did gut a portion of the construction industry based around new construction but a whole bunch of those not snapped would still be needed for maintenance and repurposing existing structures and a bunch of trades people just came back into existence and they are in need of work...

    There is certainly a way to Green New Deal by building MCU future tech Wakanda influenced cities in this as opposed to starting up the kind of camps that lead to someone like Magneto holding a grudge, to a very real degree, the power structures in play are choosing to be shitty in its aims instead of going all FDR on this.

    It's hard enough to build new housing now, without an instant ~doubling of population occurring. Plus the push-pull of family left behind in the old country that snapped back. Do they get reunited with you in Prague? Putting even more of a strain on the local housing stock that hasn't expanded in years. If you create a brand new city, or even a dozen of them, where do they go? And isn't that still a forced relocation anyway? I like living in Chicago. I've wanted to ever since I was a kid. If I blipped out of existence and was snapped back into it... I'm still going to want to live in Chicago.

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    -Tal-Tal Registered User regular
    I really don't think Disney/Marvel would get down with making a show that paints antifa as people who bomb places and rob banks

    We went from "idk if this show is about racism guys" to "this is clearly an allegory for how the deep state media portrays civil protest as dangerous and violent"

    Of course they would!

    PNk1Ml4.png
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    ButtersButters A glass of some milks Registered User regular
    I can see someone thinking the Flag Smashers could be akin to ANTIFA or anarchists if they didn't watch past episode 1.

    PSN: idontworkhere582 | CFN: idontworkhere | Steam: lordbutters | Amazon Wishlist
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    jdarksunjdarksun Struggler VARegistered User regular
    edited April 2021
    Nobeard wrote: »
    -Tal wrote: »
    Of course the flag smashers are a stand in for the mainstream perception of black bloc antifa protestors, come on. There's a reason they're dressed like that and there's a reason why sam looks directly into the camera and says "blood is not the answer."
    The Flagsmashers are all white Europeans. That are not, in any way, a stand in for black antifa protesters.
    Black bloc has nothing to do with skin color, ethnicity, or nationality, it's just the tactic of hiding your face so as to be anonymous. The Flag Smashers utilize this tactic repeatedly.
    -Tal wrote: »
    Of course the flag smashers are a stand in for the mainstream perception of black bloc antifa protestors, come on. There's a reason they're dressed like that and there's a reason why sam looks directly into the camera and says "blood is not the answer."
    What blood, exactly, do you think is on the hands of black bloc antifa?

    This is a show where one of the most tense moments is a bunch of white cops confronting Sam in a black neighborhood in Baltimore for having a conversation with a white guy. I think they're a little more clued in than "haha look at these antifa types, fuck those guys."

    Like, if you wanna make the argument that the Flag Smashers are character assassination of anarcho-communists, ok, let's have that conversation, I'm here for it. I just don't think the show runners condemn racist police tactics and some of the folk protesting against police violence in the same breath.

    jdarksun on
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    Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    -Tal wrote: »
    I really don't think Disney/Marvel would get down with making a show that paints antifa as people who bomb places and rob banks

    We went from "idk if this show is about racism guys" to "this is clearly an allegory for how the deep state media portrays civil protest as dangerous and violent"

    Of course they would!

    I mean, the showrunner is a black man who deeply cared about making the show about the black experience. You think Disney passed down the mandate to that guy "hey by the way, make it anti-anti-fa for us while you're at it" and he was like "right away mr. Mouse"

    Here's Spellman on the series:
    "We knew we didn’t want to just have [Falcon] get to some point where he’s like, ‘Oh, all good. I’m going to forget 400 years of history. It’s all good. We live in a post-racist world,’” Spellman says. “At no point is Falcon landing there.”

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    ThisThis Registered User regular
    I hate how good everybody just is with the shield. Makes it seem like it's just a magic object.

    Didn't like how good Walker was with it and don't like Bucky and Sam casually making miracle ricochet shots in the back yard.

    It takes away from Steve when anybody can do it.

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    Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    This wrote: »
    I hate how good everybody just is with the shield. Makes it seem like it's just a magic object.

    Didn't like how good Walker was with it and don't like Bucky and Sam casually making miracle ricochet shots in the back yard.

    It takes away from Steve when anybody can do it.

    Sam explicitly struggles with it to start! Bucky has been around vibranium for a long time so he probably has a pretty good idea of how it worked already, and Walker we skipped him training to him already being good with it. It being vibranium, it's extremely light and bouncy naturally. Tossing it hard enough will result in it bouncing back. The real hard part is sending where you want it to go, and then catching it.

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    SteelhawkSteelhawk Registered User regular
    Sam and Bucky were playing catch with the shield! It was cute.

    And the training montage showed that its NOT easy to use. Sam almost took his own head off a couple of times! It takes work, and Sam was shown putting in that work.

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    PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    I mean the people we see using the shield aren't like joe blows off the street.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    pleasepaypreacher.net
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    ButtersButters A glass of some milks Registered User regular
    I took the scene with Bucky and Sam playing catch as the shield version of underhand catch with a softball. The difference between what they were doing together and what Sam was practicing is the difference between backyard catch and Major League Baseball.

    PSN: idontworkhere582 | CFN: idontworkhere | Steam: lordbutters | Amazon Wishlist
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    MancingtomMancingtom Registered User regular
    Also, Walker isn't good with the shield. He can throw it, he can do basic ricochets, but compare what he did in the interview sizzle reel to Sam's training routine.

    We've seen Walker in combat four times. In each instance, he at most throws the shield in straight lines and usually just keeps it as a blunt weapon.

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    monikermoniker Registered User regular
    Mancingtom wrote: »
    Also, Walker isn't good with the shield. He can throw it, he can do basic ricochets, but compare what he did in the interview sizzle reel to Sam's training routine.

    We've seen Walker in combat four times. In each instance, he at most throws the shield in straight lines and usually just keeps it as a blunt weapon.

    ...or guillotine

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    TexiKenTexiKen Dammit! That fish really got me!Registered User regular
    he saved Lemar with a shield sled shuffle which is one of the more innovative uses of it to date.

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    -Tal-Tal Registered User regular
    -Tal wrote: »
    I really don't think Disney/Marvel would get down with making a show that paints antifa as people who bomb places and rob banks

    We went from "idk if this show is about racism guys" to "this is clearly an allegory for how the deep state media portrays civil protest as dangerous and violent"

    Of course they would!

    I mean, the showrunner is a black man who deeply cared about making the show about the black experience. You think Disney passed down the mandate to that guy "hey by the way, make it anti-anti-fa for us while you're at it" and he was like "right away mr. Mouse"

    Here's Spellman on the series:
    "We knew we didn’t want to just have [Falcon] get to some point where he’s like, ‘Oh, all good. I’m going to forget 400 years of history. It’s all good. We live in a post-racist world,’” Spellman says. “At no point is Falcon landing there.”

    No, I think he chose to write the show this way to reflect his beliefs about sympathetic but dangerously radicalized anarchists

    PNk1Ml4.png
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    NobeardNobeard North Carolina: Failed StateRegistered User regular
    This wrote: »
    I hate how good everybody just is with the shield. Makes it seem like it's just a magic object.

    Didn't like how good Walker was with it and don't like Bucky and Sam casually making miracle ricochet shots in the back yard.

    It takes away from Steve when anybody can do it.

    "That thing does not obey the laws of physics."

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    Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    -Tal wrote: »
    -Tal wrote: »
    I really don't think Disney/Marvel would get down with making a show that paints antifa as people who bomb places and rob banks

    We went from "idk if this show is about racism guys" to "this is clearly an allegory for how the deep state media portrays civil protest as dangerous and violent"

    Of course they would!

    I mean, the showrunner is a black man who deeply cared about making the show about the black experience. You think Disney passed down the mandate to that guy "hey by the way, make it anti-anti-fa for us while you're at it" and he was like "right away mr. Mouse"

    Here's Spellman on the series:
    "We knew we didn’t want to just have [Falcon] get to some point where he’s like, ‘Oh, all good. I’m going to forget 400 years of history. It’s all good. We live in a post-racist world,’” Spellman says. “At no point is Falcon landing there.”

    No, I think he chose to write the show this way to reflect his beliefs about sympathetic but dangerously radicalized anarchists

    So you think antifa is "dangerously radicalized"? Because I think this is where the conversation is falling apart

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    initiatefailureinitiatefailure Registered User regular
    edited April 2021
    If anything the cruela trailers have been more "look at the bad anarchist" than this show.

    initiatefailure on
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    monikermoniker Registered User regular
    There's definitely an interesting story to be had around the difference between a terrorist and a freedom fighter; a superhero and a supervillain; if blowing up an occupied building is "murder" or "collateral damage" in a larger fight (and, again, the Sokovia memorial being just *chef's kiss*)

    But that isn't what's happening. They could have gone that route, but they didn't. Blowing up the GRC building with staff handcuffed inside isn't a morally dubious act. It's a step on the ladder to radicalization and terrorism. Ends justify means and all that. It's a shame, because that's an interesting vein to tap and one that had been drawn from repeatedly in comics. (Magneto was right!) But you need more than 6 episodes to do it. So they went with a big bad. Just a more sympathetic one.

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    Kipling217Kipling217 Registered User regular
    The idea that the Flagsmashers are a Antifa standing was something I considered obvious. Its not that the Antifa are villains in real life. It just that their general "look" of being black clad protesters with masks giving that impression to a casual audience. Its easy to go from idealists fighting the good fight, to extremists doing the wrong thing for the right reasons. Its pretty much what every right wing tv/radio/political personality has been doing for the last year. Notice how no MSM source of news ever mentions that Antifa stands for Anti-Fascist or gives the movement any in-depth coverage like they did with the Dapper young Nazis of the Alt-Right.

    The idea that such an perspective on the Antifa would not trickle down to popular culture, even if the authors didn't intend to make it the main message is a fairly obvious. Its not like its the first time such a rewrite of history and movements has happened. The civil rights struggle for example has been almost completely rewritten from what actually happened. Turning MLK and Malcolm X into caricatures to fit history's version of them. MLK owned several guns, while Malcolm X spent a lot of his time trying to defuse tensions between his followers and the police. From the civil rights movement being fairly unpopular with whites, to being credited with "Ending racism".

    And the Flagsmashers? They dress like Antifa, Its not about their politics, but how they look. If they look like Antifa, then they are Antifa, because this is a visual medium and how things look, decides what it is more often than not. And nothing says leftwing radical more in this world than a group lead by a biracial woman standing up to the governments of the world .

    The sky was full of stars, every star an exploding ship. One of ours.
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    GnizmoGnizmo Registered User regular
    Nobeard wrote: »
    -Tal wrote: »
    Of course the flag smashers are a stand in for the mainstream perception of black bloc antifa protestors, come on. There's a reason they're dressed like that and there's a reason why sam looks directly into the camera and says "blood is not the answer."

    The Flagsmashers are all white Europeans. That are not, in any way, a stand in for black antifa protesters. That's not to say you can't draw some comparisons between then two. Protestors, activists, revolutionaries, terrorist, it's a big godsdamn topic.

    Um, no? They all have light skin color. They are not all white. This doesn't even describe Karli who is the face of the organization. I suspect this is an intentional choice in casting. Maybe the majority of them are, but 2 of the 3 most prominent members in my memory are not white. The third one is white and dead.

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    ButtersButters A glass of some milks Registered User regular
    Nobeard wrote: »
    This wrote: »
    I hate how good everybody just is with the shield. Makes it seem like it's just a magic object.

    Didn't like how good Walker was with it and don't like Bucky and Sam casually making miracle ricochet shots in the back yard.

    It takes away from Steve when anybody can do it.

    "That thing does not obey the laws of physics."

    I also seem to remember Howard calling it "completely vibration absorbent" which doesn't make any sense.

    PSN: idontworkhere582 | CFN: idontworkhere | Steam: lordbutters | Amazon Wishlist
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    Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver You don't have to attend every argument you are invited to. Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    Butters wrote: »
    Nobeard wrote: »
    This wrote: »
    I hate how good everybody just is with the shield. Makes it seem like it's just a magic object.

    Didn't like how good Walker was with it and don't like Bucky and Sam casually making miracle ricochet shots in the back yard.

    It takes away from Steve when anybody can do it.

    "That thing does not obey the laws of physics."

    I also seem to remember Howard calling it "completely vibration absorbent" which doesn't make any sense.

    That’s the way vibranium works in the comics, it absorbs vibrations and kinetic energy.

    Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
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    -Tal-Tal Registered User regular
    -Tal wrote: »
    -Tal wrote: »
    I really don't think Disney/Marvel would get down with making a show that paints antifa as people who bomb places and rob banks

    We went from "idk if this show is about racism guys" to "this is clearly an allegory for how the deep state media portrays civil protest as dangerous and violent"

    Of course they would!

    I mean, the showrunner is a black man who deeply cared about making the show about the black experience. You think Disney passed down the mandate to that guy "hey by the way, make it anti-anti-fa for us while you're at it" and he was like "right away mr. Mouse"

    Here's Spellman on the series:
    "We knew we didn’t want to just have [Falcon] get to some point where he’s like, ‘Oh, all good. I’m going to forget 400 years of history. It’s all good. We live in a post-racist world,’” Spellman says. “At no point is Falcon landing there.”

    No, I think he chose to write the show this way to reflect his beliefs about sympathetic but dangerously radicalized anarchists

    So you think antifa is "dangerously radicalized"? Because I think this is where the conversation is falling apart

    unfortunately i do not think antifa is dangerously radicalized but malcolm spellman did make a show that is, among other things, about the dangers of antifa supersoldiers

    PNk1Ml4.png
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    TexiKenTexiKen Dammit! That fish really got me!Registered User regular
    Vibranium absorbs energy and vibration/impact. What's been done with the shield before is jumping off a building onto the shield and just rolling away like it's nothing. But since they bought Fox they can now include that the shield is a vibranium/adamantium mix.

    Here's a sample of the USAgent shield collage I'm working on from the story arc where Steve fixed his shield from Secret Wars and it triggered a vibranium ripple effect that was breaking everything.

    OTzei1r.jpg

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    NobeardNobeard North Carolina: Failed StateRegistered User regular
    edited April 2021
    I disagree with strongly tying Flagsmashers to American antifa because of the specific racism in America. There are some similarities, but America's history with specifically racism toward Africans means that there is only so far you can go in making comparisons.

    I mean, if you really want to get down to what makes America unique overall, in the real world, it's our flavor of racism.

    Nobeard on
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    Ninja Snarl PNinja Snarl P My helmet is my burden. Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered User regular
    Yeah, I get zero Antifa vibe from the Flagsmashers. Their outfits are anything but uniform in color or composition, and only unifying element is their masks and those are clearly much closer to hockey masks than anything else; if they were trying to make them an Antifa stand-in, there's a pile of things they'd need to change up to and including making them wear a black outfit. Instead, they all dress like any other civilian, then just throw on the mask for action. They also aren't walking around with gear to counter teargas, pepper balls, protection against riot gear, etc.

    Not to mention that they're anything but protestors, obviously. They don't march, they don't have a crowd with them, they just go for their objectives on their own and retreat into the civilian population. They aren't advocating for better government, they're advocating for no government.

    In short, I just don't see Antifa representation, or criticism, in anything for the Flagsmashers.

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    -Tal-Tal Registered User regular
    my biggest problem with karli blowing up the building is that for most of the show the flag smashers are shown as being tightly organized, really having their shit together, strong bonds of loyalty that prevent even america's top operatives from tracking them, but then karli didn't even run her plan by her closest ally. you gotta have trust in a terrorist-in-arms relationship

    PNk1Ml4.png
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    Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver You don't have to attend every argument you are invited to. Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    I will note that in the comics the reason why Steve’s shield bounces the way it does is because it’s from a steel/vibranium alloy that they don’t know how to reproduce. It somehow gives it a lot of wonky abilities.

    Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
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    monikermoniker Registered User regular
    Kipling217 wrote: »
    The idea that the Flagsmashers are a Antifa standing was something I considered obvious. Its not that the Antifa are villains in real life. It just that their general "look" of being black clad protesters with masks giving that impression to a casual audience. Its easy to go from idealists fighting the good fight, to extremists doing the wrong thing for the right reasons. Its pretty much what every right wing tv/radio/political personality has been doing for the last year. Notice how no MSM source of news ever mentions that Antifa stands for Anti-Fascist or gives the movement any in-depth coverage like they did with the Dapper young Nazis of the Alt-Right.

    The idea that such an perspective on the Antifa would not trickle down to popular culture, even if the authors didn't intend to make it the main message is a fairly obvious. Its not like its the first time such a rewrite of history and movements has happened. The civil rights struggle for example has been almost completely rewritten from what actually happened. Turning MLK and Malcolm X into caricatures to fit history's version of them. MLK owned several guns, while Malcolm X spent a lot of his time trying to defuse tensions between his followers and the police. From the civil rights movement being fairly unpopular with whites, to being credited with "Ending racism".

    And the Flagsmashers? They dress like Antifa, Its not about their politics, but how they look. If they look like Antifa, then they are Antifa, because this is a visual medium and how things look, decides what it is more often than not. And nothing says leftwing radical more in this world than a group lead by a biracial woman standing up to the governments of the world .

    Aside from not wearing high-vis they also look like the Gilets Jaunes. Or like the Proud Boys and Oath Keepers, except their facemasks typically have a skull on it rather than the hand of Saruman like the flag smashers.

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    BethrynBethryn Unhappiness is Mandatory Registered User regular
    Nobeard wrote: »
    The Flagsmashers are all white Europeans.
    iwh247dbfhpf.png

    The other notable Flag-Smasher besides Karli is an Asian guy with an Aussie (or maybe NZ?) accent, who has several speaking roles with her...?

    ...and of course, as always, Kill Hitler.
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    GrisloGrislo Registered User regular
    Europe - the other white meat.

    This post was sponsored by Tom Cruise.
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    Kipling217Kipling217 Registered User regular
    moniker wrote: »
    Kipling217 wrote: »
    The idea that the Flagsmashers are a Antifa standing was something I considered obvious. Its not that the Antifa are villains in real life. It just that their general "look" of being black clad protesters with masks giving that impression to a casual audience. Its easy to go from idealists fighting the good fight, to extremists doing the wrong thing for the right reasons. Its pretty much what every right wing tv/radio/political personality has been doing for the last year. Notice how no MSM source of news ever mentions that Antifa stands for Anti-Fascist or gives the movement any in-depth coverage like they did with the Dapper young Nazis of the Alt-Right.

    The idea that such an perspective on the Antifa would not trickle down to popular culture, even if the authors didn't intend to make it the main message is a fairly obvious. Its not like its the first time such a rewrite of history and movements has happened. The civil rights struggle for example has been almost completely rewritten from what actually happened. Turning MLK and Malcolm X into caricatures to fit history's version of them. MLK owned several guns, while Malcolm X spent a lot of his time trying to defuse tensions between his followers and the police. From the civil rights movement being fairly unpopular with whites, to being credited with "Ending racism".

    And the Flagsmashers? They dress like Antifa, Its not about their politics, but how they look. If they look like Antifa, then they are Antifa, because this is a visual medium and how things look, decides what it is more often than not. And nothing says leftwing radical more in this world than a group lead by a biracial woman standing up to the governments of the world .

    Aside from not wearing high-vis they also look like the Gilets Jaunes. Or like the Proud Boys and Oath Keepers, except their facemasks typically have a skull on it rather than the hand of Saruman like the flag smashers.

    Are Proud Boys and Oath Keepers led by biracial women? Its not just the outfits but the people in them that make them look like Antifa, Erin Kellyman being cast as Karli Morgenthau is not an accident, There is only one movement where she would be the face and its not the Proud Boys. The Gilets Jaunes maybe, but that is more of a French economic protest movement than a concerted international one.

    The sky was full of stars, every star an exploding ship. One of ours.
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    Kipling217Kipling217 Registered User regular
    edited April 2021
    Remember, its not that the Flagsmashers dress like what the Antifa in real life do, but that they dress like what a casual audience thinks Antifa dresses like. The fact that this dress is so generic that beyond the mask they could be mistaken for several other movements is not the point. The signal is Antifa-alike, just close enough that people associate the Flagsmashers with the Antifa without having the burden of actually making them Antifa with all the ideology and operational baggage that entails.

    Edit: A fine example would be Hans Gruber crew being a European Terrorists in Die Hard. They where not anything close to the real thing and in the end they where just bank robbers, but they looked close enough that it you didn't have to go into the bullshit of explaining the Badder-Meinhoff or Direct action or Brigade Rosso.

    Kipling217 on
    The sky was full of stars, every star an exploding ship. One of ours.
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    Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    I will note that in the comics the reason why Steve’s shield bounces the way it does is because it’s from a steel/vibranium alloy that they don’t know how to reproduce. It somehow gives it a lot of wonky abilities.

    More specifically, it is NOT a Vibranium/Adamantium alloy in main comics like Texikan suggested. The only relationship adamantium has with the shield is the guy who accidently created the special alloy in the shield was trying to recreate it without vibranium and wound up with adamantium.

    In the MCU, it's just made of vibranium, and likely could be mass produced if Wakanda felt like it. In the comics Steve's shield is a one of a kind, accept no substitutes kind of object.

    IIRC, the shield is just flat out Adamantium in the Ultimate universe.

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    Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    The Flagsmashies are anarchists, antifa are literally anti-fascism. The ideologies don't line up, because in the real world half the world didn't get killed and then unkilled. You can draw parallels for sure, but I think it's reductive to the antifa movement to lump them in with anarchist terrorists who take super-roids and then rob banks. I feel it's reaching a bit much.

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    MarathonMarathon Registered User regular
    The Flagsmashies are anarchists, antifa are literally anti-fascism. The ideologies don't line up, because in the real world half the world didn't get killed and then unkilled. You can draw parallels for sure, but I think it's reductive to the antifa movement to lump them in with anarchist terrorists who take super-roids and then rob banks. I feel it's reaching a bit much.

    If anything, they seem like a wider reaching and more organized version of Tyler Durden’s followers in Fight Club.

This discussion has been closed.