The Flagsmashies are anarchists, antifa are literally anti-fascism. The ideologies don't line up, because in the real world half the world didn't get killed and then unkilled. You can draw parallels for sure, but I think it's reductive to the antifa movement to lump them in with anarchist terrorists who take super-roids and then rob banks. I feel it's reaching a bit much.
Antifa is derived from the historical anarchist movement. It is why the antifa colors are red and black, these colors were used by the Italian anarcho-communists who rose to oppose Mussilini and to this day are pretty much always used with anarcho-communist symbolism (look what colors the Flagsmashers use).
Antifa is a bigger umbrella than anarchism and generally also includes other communists, socialists, and leftist ideologies of different stripes, but the idea that antifa and anarchists are lumped together goes back to the deep connection between them in the Italian resistance movement and the Spanish civil war, and perceiving them as linked is incredibly common today. Not to mention that nearly every actual anarchist would identify themselves as antifa.
I can appreciate the connection, but again the group displayed in the show are terrorists. Black and red also happen to be the colors of the original Flagsmasher costume, so while it can be both I don't know if it's explicitly calling out to the antifa movement. It would be an extremely weird thing to do, as the antifa movement is aligned with modern day civil rights movements. The show is not suggesting these people are fighting for civil liberties, they just don't want to lose their home and job because half the world suddenly came back into being.
It just doesn't jive, the antifa movement is largely american in sentiment and is pushing back against hate groups in america and the police that protect them. The GRC isn't trying fostering or protecting hate groups, is anything the Flagsmashers are the hate group. As far as I know, not a single antifa member has robbed a bank or stolen vaccines. But we do have radical alt right hate groups attacking captiol buildings and destroying much needed vaccines based on conspiracy theories. Again, the ideologies and actions line up more with the alt right than antifa.
And while America First is very super-nationalist, there is a very odd transnational/ international coalition on the alt-right. It would probably swallow itself under its own contradictions eventually, but it is currently a fairly borderless philosophy of hate.
And mind you, there are plenty of people in America who love going on right-leaning news channels and throw around "antifa" and "terrorism" in the same breath. It's a laughably false image that has nonetheless permeated the national consciousness, and depictions like this are the result.
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AthenorBattle Hardened OptimistThe Skies of HiigaraRegistered Userregular
The Flagsmashies are anarchists, antifa are literally anti-fascism. The ideologies don't line up, because in the real world half the world didn't get killed and then unkilled. You can draw parallels for sure, but I think it's reductive to the antifa movement to lump them in with anarchist terrorists who take super-roids and then rob banks. I feel it's reaching a bit much.
Antifa is derived from the historical anarchist movement. It is why the antifa colors are red and black, these colors were used by the Italian anarcho-communists who rose to oppose Mussilini and to this day are pretty much always used with anarcho-communist symbolism (look what colors the Flagsmashers use).
Antifa is a bigger umbrella than anarchism and generally also includes other communists, socialists, and leftist ideologies of different stripes, but the idea that antifa and anarchists are lumped together goes back to the deep connection between them in the Italian resistance movement and the Spanish civil war, and perceiving them as linked is incredibly common today. Not to mention that nearly every actual anarchist would identify themselves as antifa.
I can appreciate the connection, but again the group displayed in the show are terrorists. Black and red also happen to be the colors of the original Flagsmasher costume, so while it can be both I don't know if it's explicitly calling out to the antifa movement. It would be an extremely weird thing to do, as the antifa movement is aligned with modern day civil rights movements. The show is not suggesting these people are fighting for civil liberties, they just don't want to lose their home and job because half the world suddenly came back into being.
It just doesn't jive, the antifa movement is largely american in sentiment and is pushing back against hate groups in america and the police that protect them. The GRC isn't trying fostering or protecting hate groups, is anything the Flagsmashers are the hate group. As far as I know, not a single antifa member has robbed a bank or stolen vaccines. But we do have radical alt right hate groups attacking captiol buildings and destroying much needed vaccines based on conspiracy theories. Again, the ideologies and actions line up more with the alt right than antifa.
It's not a mistake that the original flagsmasher uses the same colors as antifa, the original flagsmasher is an anarchist in the traditional sense, and the depiction of anarchists as scary terrorists is literally as old as the anarchist movement (generally as an excuse to arrest and hang them). The modern American antifa movement is in every way meant to be a callback to old-school European anarchist/antifa movements as well.
I honestly think you all want to associate them with the alt right because it would make it okay for you to hate/fear them like the show wants you to. And again, because the show is playing in horseshoe theory nonsense that says that leftist radicals are actually just the same as supermacists if you really really think about it, you know?
I cannot, cannot understand this reading, holy shit.
This is a show about RACE and POWER. It is showing that those with power are dangerous if they don't have morals and ethics to drive them to do the right things, and that you shouldn't compromise your morals and ethics... but you shouldn't be blind to abuses either.
The flagsmashers don't like the return to the status quo because everyone seems to care more about the returned folk than those who were left behind. Their original argument was that GRC support and supplies were not getting distributed fast enough - IE 6 months or more. Once heat started pressing on them, they started abandoning their ethics - and this was aided by the serum giving them power.
At no time did I associate the flagsmashers with antifa or BLM. If anything, I saw them as sympathetic because the show set them up to be sympathetic, but Karli is losing herself to power. And that's bad.
This show pretty much disavowed America. It's shown that everyone has their hands dirty. I just... I can't see the reading that the flagsmashers are an analog for anything but power corrupting.
The Flagsmashies are anarchists, antifa are literally anti-fascism. The ideologies don't line up, because in the real world half the world didn't get killed and then unkilled. You can draw parallels for sure, but I think it's reductive to the antifa movement to lump them in with anarchist terrorists who take super-roids and then rob banks. I feel it's reaching a bit much.
Antifa is derived from the historical anarchist movement. It is why the antifa colors are red and black, these colors were used by the Italian anarcho-communists who rose to oppose Mussilini and to this day are pretty much always used with anarcho-communist symbolism (look what colors the Flagsmashers use).
Antifa is a bigger umbrella than anarchism and generally also includes other communists, socialists, and leftist ideologies of different stripes, but the idea that antifa and anarchists are lumped together goes back to the deep connection between them in the Italian resistance movement and the Spanish civil war, and perceiving them as linked is incredibly common today. Not to mention that nearly every actual anarchist would identify themselves as antifa.
I can appreciate the connection, but again the group displayed in the show are terrorists. Black and red also happen to be the colors of the original Flagsmasher costume, so while it can be both I don't know if it's explicitly calling out to the antifa movement. It would be an extremely weird thing to do, as the antifa movement is aligned with modern day civil rights movements. The show is not suggesting these people are fighting for civil liberties, they just don't want to lose their home and job because half the world suddenly came back into being.
It just doesn't jive, the antifa movement is largely american in sentiment and is pushing back against hate groups in america and the police that protect them. The GRC isn't trying fostering or protecting hate groups, is anything the Flagsmashers are the hate group. As far as I know, not a single antifa member has robbed a bank or stolen vaccines. But we do have radical alt right hate groups attacking captiol buildings and destroying much needed vaccines based on conspiracy theories. Again, the ideologies and actions line up more with the alt right than antifa.
It's not a mistake that the original flagsmasher uses the same colors as antifa, the original flagsmasher is an anarchist in the traditional sense, and the depiction of anarchists as scary terrorists is literally as old as the anarchist movement (generally as an excuse to arrest and hang them). The modern American antifa movement is in every way meant to be a callback to old-school European anarchist/antifa movements as well.
I honestly think you all want to associate them with the alt right because it would make it okay for you to hate/fear them like the show wants you to. And again, because the show is playing in horseshoe theory nonsense that says that leftist radicals are actually just the same as supermacists if you really really think about it, you know?
Again, my first association was with the Provisonal IRA, not Antifa. Justifiable motives, unjustifiable bombings.
With Zemo, there is also the very distinct possibility that he enacted some contingency plan or performed some other action of personal importance between the time he El Chapo'ed and was handed over to the Dora Milaje.
I mean really the flag smashers are all skrulls anyway, so their real analogue is with the lizard people who really run america. I don't know why you guys don't see that.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
The Flagsmashies are anarchists, antifa are literally anti-fascism. The ideologies don't line up, because in the real world half the world didn't get killed and then unkilled. You can draw parallels for sure, but I think it's reductive to the antifa movement to lump them in with anarchist terrorists who take super-roids and then rob banks. I feel it's reaching a bit much.
Antifa is derived from the historical anarchist movement. It is why the antifa colors are red and black, these colors were used by the Italian anarcho-communists who rose to oppose Mussilini and to this day are pretty much always used with anarcho-communist symbolism (look what colors the Flagsmashers use).
Antifa is a bigger umbrella than anarchism and generally also includes other communists, socialists, and leftist ideologies of different stripes, but the idea that antifa and anarchists are lumped together goes back to the deep connection between them in the Italian resistance movement and the Spanish civil war, and perceiving them as linked is incredibly common today. Not to mention that nearly every actual anarchist would identify themselves as antifa.
I can appreciate the connection, but again the group displayed in the show are terrorists. Black and red also happen to be the colors of the original Flagsmasher costume, so while it can be both I don't know if it's explicitly calling out to the antifa movement. It would be an extremely weird thing to do, as the antifa movement is aligned with modern day civil rights movements. The show is not suggesting these people are fighting for civil liberties, they just don't want to lose their home and job because half the world suddenly came back into being.
It just doesn't jive, the antifa movement is largely american in sentiment and is pushing back against hate groups in america and the police that protect them. The GRC isn't trying fostering or protecting hate groups, is anything the Flagsmashers are the hate group. As far as I know, not a single antifa member has robbed a bank or stolen vaccines. But we do have radical alt right hate groups attacking captiol buildings and destroying much needed vaccines based on conspiracy theories. Again, the ideologies and actions line up more with the alt right than antifa.
It's not a mistake that the original flagsmasher uses the same colors as antifa, the original flagsmasher is an anarchist in the traditional sense, and the depiction of anarchists as scary terrorists is literally as old as the anarchist movement (generally as an excuse to arrest and hang them). The modern American antifa movement is in every way meant to be a callback to old-school European anarchist/antifa movements as well.
I honestly think you all want to associate them with the alt right because it would make it okay for you to hate/fear them like the show wants you to. And again, because the show is playing in horseshoe theory nonsense that says that leftist radicals are actually just the same as supermacists if you really really think about it, you know?
Idk, based explicitly on what the Flagsmashers are portrayed as in the show? Yes they used the anarchist trappings to start, but immediately they become radicalized. Using the internet and social media, they spread information that benefits their cause. They tell people the government doesn't care about them, but they do. And then they get them to take part in dangerous acts like bank robberies, where they can die as a distraction to further the cause. Because they've given themselves the serum, they are at much less risk to compared to the average joe's they wrangle to cause more chaos. All of this screams alt right to me. People who think they've cracked the code and see the world as it truly is, but they're just another pawn in someone else's game.
And mind you, there are plenty of people in America who love going on right-leaning news channels and throw around "antifa" and "terrorism" in the same breath. It's a laughably false image that has nonetheless permeated the national consciousness, and depictions like this are the result.
I don't think the people who wrote this show also watch Fox News...
robbing banks and stealing vaccines to distribute to refugees are both very cool actions
On the first one, yeah I get it, fuck banks... But people die in real bank robberies... Especially innocent people. And the second part... Stealing vaccines means someone isn't getting it. Sure, the Flagsmashers handed it out quicker, but people may die as a result of both of these actions.
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
They also blew up a building full of helpless captives.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
The Flagsmashies are anarchists, antifa are literally anti-fascism. The ideologies don't line up, because in the real world half the world didn't get killed and then unkilled. You can draw parallels for sure, but I think it's reductive to the antifa movement to lump them in with anarchist terrorists who take super-roids and then rob banks. I feel it's reaching a bit much.
Antifa is derived from the historical anarchist movement. It is why the antifa colors are red and black, these colors were used by the Italian anarcho-communists who rose to oppose Mussilini and to this day are pretty much always used with anarcho-communist symbolism (look what colors the Flagsmashers use).
Antifa is a bigger umbrella than anarchism and generally also includes other communists, socialists, and leftist ideologies of different stripes, but the idea that antifa and anarchists are lumped together goes back to the deep connection between them in the Italian resistance movement and the Spanish civil war, and perceiving them as linked is incredibly common today. Not to mention that nearly every actual anarchist would identify themselves as antifa.
I can appreciate the connection, but again the group displayed in the show are terrorists. Black and red also happen to be the colors of the original Flagsmasher costume, so while it can be both I don't know if it's explicitly calling out to the antifa movement. It would be an extremely weird thing to do, as the antifa movement is aligned with modern day civil rights movements. The show is not suggesting these people are fighting for civil liberties, they just don't want to lose their home and job because half the world suddenly came back into being.
It just doesn't jive, the antifa movement is largely american in sentiment and is pushing back against hate groups in america and the police that protect them. The GRC isn't trying fostering or protecting hate groups, is anything the Flagsmashers are the hate group. As far as I know, not a single antifa member has robbed a bank or stolen vaccines. But we do have radical alt right hate groups attacking captiol buildings and destroying much needed vaccines based on conspiracy theories. Again, the ideologies and actions line up more with the alt right than antifa.
It's not a mistake that the original flagsmasher uses the same colors as antifa, the original flagsmasher is an anarchist in the traditional sense, and the depiction of anarchists as scary terrorists is literally as old as the anarchist movement (generally as an excuse to arrest and hang them). The modern American antifa movement is in every way meant to be a callback to old-school European anarchist/antifa movements as well.
I honestly think you all want to associate them with the alt right because it would make it okay for you to hate/fear them like the show wants you to. And again, because the show is playing in horseshoe theory nonsense that says that leftist radicals are actually just the same as supermacists if you really really think about it, you know?
Anarchists did not make up the bulk of old-school European anti-fascist movements. Some were anarchists but many other others were socialists, communists, or conservatives that still supported democratic rule.
Having watched every episode so far twice (once solo on the night of, then again later with the family) I really feel like Bucky got Worf'd in this series. This is a guy who could handle Steve and Natasha in hand to hand, at once, and could stop the shield dead in its tracks at full speed. Now he's getting thrown 50 feet through the air by the shield and having an even hand to hand fight with Walker
Having watched every episode so far twice (once solo on the night of, then again later with the family) I really feel like Bucky got Worf'd in this series. This is a guy who could handle Steve and Natasha in hand to hand, at once, and could stop the shield dead in its tracks at full speed. Now he's getting thrown 50 feet through the air by the shield and having an even hand to hand fight with Walker
I get "That's WS, this is Bucky" but still.
WS Bucky got handled by T'Challa in street clothes and he kind of takes control of the end of the Walker fight.
They didn't want to hurt Walker and didn't turn up the dial until it was clear he was so far gone he was willing to kill them too.
It seem they have written in calibration issues for Bucky where he dials back a bit too much because he knows the level of damage he can do if he doesn't care like the WS.
IIRC, Bucky caught the shield when it was flung parallel to his shoulder, allowing his metal arm to absorb the blow. When Walker tagged him with it, it was towards his stomach which negated Bucky being able to brace against it with his arm.
I think it's clearly and repeatedly demonstrated through fight scenes that Bucky is always holding back. He got clowned during the truck fight, at one point he just let two dudes hold him. They were juiced, yes, but still, it's Bucky. When he let a little winter soldier out at the club, he was ruthless and efficient.
IIRC, Bucky caught the shield when it was flung parallel to his shoulder, allowing his metal arm to absorb the blow. When Walker tagged him with it, it was towards his stomach which negated Bucky being able to brace against it with his arm.
Also Walker was throwing to kill. Steve throws to injure or disarm. If he really wanted two, Steve could cleave a human in two as easily as dry sticks.
i do wish this show was more willing to directly implicate steve for being a supersoldier terrorist
Well that would never happen considering that’s a fairly absurd view of his actions as a character.
He is, factually speaking, both a supersoldier, and considered a terrorist by the government in at least two movies
Sure, but by that definition half the avengers are terrorists too, at one point Sam included. They still managed to save ummm.... Half the galaxy? Maybe we can let those things slide now?
i do wish this show was more willing to directly implicate steve for being a supersoldier terrorist
Well that would never happen considering that’s a fairly absurd view of his actions as a character.
He is, factually speaking, both a supersoldier, and considered a terrorist by the government in at least two movies
Sure, but by that definition half the avengers are terrorists too, at one point Sam included. They still managed to save ummm.... Half the galaxy? Maybe we can let those things slide now?
Well yes, they were indeed considered terrorists. I feel like that may have been an interesting thing to bring up in Sam and Karli's conversation!
i do wish this show was more willing to directly implicate steve for being a supersoldier terrorist
Well that would never happen considering that’s a fairly absurd view of his actions as a character.
He is, factually speaking, both a supersoldier, and considered a terrorist by the government in at least two movies
Sure, but by that definition half the avengers are terrorists too, at one point Sam included. They still managed to save ummm.... Half the galaxy? Maybe we can let those things slide now?
Well yes, they were indeed considered terrorists. I feel like that may have been an interesting thing to bring up in Sam and Karli's conversation!
Sam might've gotten there if Walker hadn't panicked. He was probably saving the "what makes a terrorist" conversation for after he got Karli past the whole "the people I kill are objects in my path" bit.
i do wish this show was more willing to directly implicate steve for being a supersoldier terrorist
Well that would never happen considering that’s a fairly absurd view of his actions as a character.
He is, factually speaking, both a supersoldier, and considered a terrorist by the government in at least two movies
Sure, but by that definition half the avengers are terrorists too, at one point Sam included. They still managed to save ummm.... Half the galaxy? Maybe we can let those things slide now?
Well yes, they were indeed considered terrorists. I feel like that may have been an interesting thing to bring up in Sam and Karli's conversation!
Sam might've gotten there if Walker hadn't panicked. He was probably saving the "what makes a terrorist" conversation for after he got Karli past the whole "the people I kill are objects in my path" bit.
It was touched on lightly with Sharon Carter in Madripoor.
i do wish this show was more willing to directly implicate steve for being a supersoldier terrorist
Well that would never happen considering that’s a fairly absurd view of his actions as a character.
He is, factually speaking, both a supersoldier, and considered a terrorist by the government in at least two movies
Eh, I think he was considered more an enemy of the state or wanted fugitive than a terrorist. I can’t think of any point where Steve uses violence and intimidation for political purposes.
I absolutely think that in the background/aftermath of Civil War that the On The Run Avengers would be considered terrorists by the state, which is my understanding of -tal's point. Like, that label is used as much as a propaganda tool as it is an actual objective term.
They fucking...broke War Machine's back!!! They blew up an airport!
Which is, again, one of the reasons I think this show having Sam/Bucky work so closely with the military, enough that they are called "government contractors" is not a great path for them. In my mind, the Avengers need to be distanced pretty heavily from the American government and military. They're a global super-hero unit, they shouldn't be an arm of the American Military, Basically. They're not Navy Seals.
i do wish this show was more willing to directly implicate steve for being a supersoldier terrorist
Well that would never happen considering that’s a fairly absurd view of his actions as a character.
He is, factually speaking, both a supersoldier, and considered a terrorist by the government in at least two movies
Eh, I think he was considered more an enemy of the state or wanted fugitive than a terrorist. I can’t think of any point where Steve uses violence and intimidation for political purposes.
Oh, I'm sure Ross bandied the words about between Civil War and Infinity War. I doubt anyone took the allegation seriously.
Getting slightly afield of TFAWS for a moment, it's not clear how actively the government pursued Team Cap. We know Iron Man and the loyal Avengers didn't take part—Endgame's opening being the first time Steve and Tony have encountered each other since Siberia—and mundane spec ops teams pose no threat. I get the impression Team Cap had to lay low but rarely saw combat.*
Adds color to Sharon's bitterness, too. For her, "on the run" meant being hounded by the most powerful governments in the world. For Sam, it meant he couldn't go to airports and had to be careful about restaurants.
*
My headcanon is that Team Cap was up to "helping the helpless" stuff while on the run. Think the A-Team with superpowers. And I want that show/movie very badly.
i do wish this show was more willing to directly implicate steve for being a supersoldier terrorist
Well that would never happen considering that’s a fairly absurd view of his actions as a character.
He is, factually speaking, both a supersoldier, and considered a terrorist by the government in at least two movies
Eh, I think he was considered more an enemy of the state or wanted fugitive than a terrorist. I can’t think of any point where Steve uses violence and intimidation for political purposes.
Can you really not think of any times steve uses violence and intimidation for political purposes or do they just happen to be times when you feel they were against the right targets for the right reasons
i do wish this show was more willing to directly implicate steve for being a supersoldier terrorist
Well that would never happen considering that’s a fairly absurd view of his actions as a character.
He is, factually speaking, both a supersoldier, and considered a terrorist by the government in at least two movies
Eh, I think he was considered more an enemy of the state or wanted fugitive than a terrorist. I can’t think of any point where Steve uses violence and intimidation for political purposes.
Oh, I'm sure Ross bandied the words about between Civil War and Infinity War. I doubt anyone took the allegation seriously.
Getting slightly afield of TFAWS for a moment, it's not clear how actively the government pursued Team Cap. We know Iron Man and the loyal Avengers didn't take part—Endgame's opening being the first time Steve and Tony have encountered each other since Siberia—and mundane spec ops teams pose no threat. I get the impression Team Cap had to lay low but rarely saw combat.*
Adds color to Sharon's bitterness, too. For her, "on the run" meant being hounded by the most powerful governments in the world. For Sam, it meant he couldn't go to airports and had to be careful about restaurants.
*
My headcanon is that Team Cap was up to "helping the helpless" stuff while on the run. Think the A-Team with superpowers. And I want that show/movie very badly.
A Nomad movie with bearded Chris Evans would be fun, but there's no way he's signing up for anything Marvel that's more than a brief cameo or voicework.
i do wish this show was more willing to directly implicate steve for being a supersoldier terrorist
Well that would never happen considering that’s a fairly absurd view of his actions as a character.
He is, factually speaking, both a supersoldier, and considered a terrorist by the government in at least two movies
Eh, I think he was considered more an enemy of the state or wanted fugitive than a terrorist. I can’t think of any point where Steve uses violence and intimidation for political purposes.
Can you really not think of any times steve uses violence and intimidation for political purposes or do they just happen to be times when you feel they were against the right targets for the right reasons
I can't think of any time he used intimidation for political purposes.
I can't think of that many times when he didn't use violence in self-defense or against targets who are already engaging him.
i do wish this show was more willing to directly implicate steve for being a supersoldier terrorist
Well that would never happen considering that’s a fairly absurd view of his actions as a character.
He is, factually speaking, both a supersoldier, and considered a terrorist by the government in at least two movies
Eh, I think he was considered more an enemy of the state or wanted fugitive than a terrorist. I can’t think of any point where Steve uses violence and intimidation for political purposes.
Can you really not think of any times steve uses violence and intimidation for political purposes or do they just happen to be times when you feel they were against the right targets for the right reasons
Outside of being an actual soldier, not really.
In every appearance Cap is seen fighting organized armies or paramilitary forces. In Avengers they fight an invading alien army, Age of Ultron they start off fighting Hydra and then Ultron’s bots, Infinity War the fight is against Thanos and his armies.
And it’s the same for his solo films. In First Avenger it’s the Nazi’s. In Winter Soldier he actively fights against the US government and Hydra. And in Civil War he fights police to stop them from killing Bucky, Crossbones and his goons, and then his fellow Avengers.
What am I missing that makes Cap a terrorist? And not it’s not because they “just happen to be times when you feel they were against the right targets for the right reasons”.
i do wish this show was more willing to directly implicate steve for being a supersoldier terrorist
Well that would never happen considering that’s a fairly absurd view of his actions as a character.
He is, factually speaking, both a supersoldier, and considered a terrorist by the government in at least two movies
Eh, I think he was considered more an enemy of the state or wanted fugitive than a terrorist. I can’t think of any point where Steve uses violence and intimidation for political purposes.
Can you really not think of any times steve uses violence and intimidation for political purposes or do they just happen to be times when you feel they were against the right targets for the right reasons
I can't think of any time he used intimidation for political purposes.
I can't think of that many times when he didn't use violence in self-defense or against targets who are already engaging him.
Do you have some examples you'd like to post?
Steve initiates a million engagements throughout all of his movies, nearly all of which are very well-justified and very much to the right targets for the right reasons in my opinion
i do wish this show was more willing to directly implicate steve for being a supersoldier terrorist
Well that would never happen considering that’s a fairly absurd view of his actions as a character.
He is, factually speaking, both a supersoldier, and considered a terrorist by the government in at least two movies
Eh, I think he was considered more an enemy of the state or wanted fugitive than a terrorist. I can’t think of any point where Steve uses violence and intimidation for political purposes.
Can you really not think of any times steve uses violence and intimidation for political purposes or do they just happen to be times when you feel they were against the right targets for the right reasons
I can't think of any time he used intimidation for political purposes.
I can't think of that many times when he didn't use violence in self-defense or against targets who are already engaging him.
Do you have some examples you'd like to post?
Steve initiates a million engagements throughout all of his movies, nearly all of which are very well-justified and very much to the right targets for the right reasons in my opinion
I just couldn't think of any time he's actually starting a fight outside of maybe the boat in Winter soldier.
Even in that Nazi camp he was trying to sneak in at first.
i do wish this show was more willing to directly implicate steve for being a supersoldier terrorist
Well that would never happen considering that’s a fairly absurd view of his actions as a character.
He is, factually speaking, both a supersoldier, and considered a terrorist by the government in at least two movies
Eh, I think he was considered more an enemy of the state or wanted fugitive than a terrorist. I can’t think of any point where Steve uses violence and intimidation for political purposes.
Can you really not think of any times steve uses violence and intimidation for political purposes or do they just happen to be times when you feel they were against the right targets for the right reasons
Outside of being an actual soldier, not really.
In every appearance Cap is seen fighting organized armies or paramilitary forces. In Avengers they fight an invading alien army, Age of Ultron they start off fighting Hydra and then Ultron’s bots, Infinity War the fight is against Thanos and his armies.
And it’s the same for his solo films. In First Avenger it’s the Nazi’s. In Winter Soldier he actively fights against the US government and Hydra. And in Civil War he fights police to stop them from killing Bucky, Crossbones and his goons, and then his fellow Avengers.
What am I missing that makes Cap a terrorist? And not it’s not because they “just happen to be times when you feel they were against the right targets for the right reasons”.
You just gave me a list of right targets and right reasons that cap uses violence and intimidation against to achieve his not always but often political goals, i mean you even named two governments. I think the thing you might be missing is that the designation of "terrorist" is itself an extremely politicised and subjective charge that there is not actually a consistent set of criteria for. It is okay to say that "for the right reasons, against the right targets, sometimes violence or intimidation to achieve political goals can be okay"
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
Ok. Let's have a working definition of a terrorist then: someone who uses violence or the threat of violence against civilians in order to spread fear and terror as a primary motivator.
The flag smashers are terrorists because they blew up a building of civilians in order to send a message to the people in charge. Steve is not a terrorist.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
i do wish this show was more willing to directly implicate steve for being a supersoldier terrorist
Well that would never happen considering that’s a fairly absurd view of his actions as a character.
He is, factually speaking, both a supersoldier, and considered a terrorist by the government in at least two movies
Eh, I think he was considered more an enemy of the state or wanted fugitive than a terrorist. I can’t think of any point where Steve uses violence and intimidation for political purposes.
Can you really not think of any times steve uses violence and intimidation for political purposes or do they just happen to be times when you feel they were against the right targets for the right reasons
Outside of being an actual soldier, not really.
In every appearance Cap is seen fighting organized armies or paramilitary forces. In Avengers they fight an invading alien army, Age of Ultron they start off fighting Hydra and then Ultron’s bots, Infinity War the fight is against Thanos and his armies.
And it’s the same for his solo films. In First Avenger it’s the Nazi’s. In Winter Soldier he actively fights against the US government and Hydra. And in Civil War he fights police to stop them from killing Bucky, Crossbones and his goons, and then his fellow Avengers.
What am I missing that makes Cap a terrorist? And not it’s not because they “just happen to be times when you feel they were against the right targets for the right reasons”.
You just gave me a list of right targets and right reasons that cap uses violence and intimidation against to achieve his not always but often political goals, i mean you even named two governments. I think the thing you might be missing is that the designation of "terrorist" is itself an extremely politicised and subjective charge that there is not actually a consistent set of criteria for. It is okay to say that "for the right reasons, against the right targets, sometimes violence or intimidation to achieve political goals can be okay"
You seem to be using a definition of “terrorist” that’s so broad that it’s essentially meaningless. You’ve even expanded it beyond political violence to include his “not only” political goals.
Steve never makes demands where if some conditions are not met his violence will continue. Most of his actions are in response to some outside threat.
Please, be specific. What does Captain America do that you can clearly point to and reasonably call him a terrorist?
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And while America First is very super-nationalist, there is a very odd transnational/ international coalition on the alt-right. It would probably swallow itself under its own contradictions eventually, but it is currently a fairly borderless philosophy of hate.
I cannot, cannot understand this reading, holy shit.
This is a show about RACE and POWER. It is showing that those with power are dangerous if they don't have morals and ethics to drive them to do the right things, and that you shouldn't compromise your morals and ethics... but you shouldn't be blind to abuses either.
The flagsmashers don't like the return to the status quo because everyone seems to care more about the returned folk than those who were left behind. Their original argument was that GRC support and supplies were not getting distributed fast enough - IE 6 months or more. Once heat started pressing on them, they started abandoning their ethics - and this was aided by the serum giving them power.
At no time did I associate the flagsmashers with antifa or BLM. If anything, I saw them as sympathetic because the show set them up to be sympathetic, but Karli is losing herself to power. And that's bad.
This show pretty much disavowed America. It's shown that everyone has their hands dirty. I just... I can't see the reading that the flagsmashers are an analog for anything but power corrupting.
Again, my first association was with the Provisonal IRA, not Antifa. Justifiable motives, unjustifiable bombings.
Knock Knock.
pleasepaypreacher.net
Idk, based explicitly on what the Flagsmashers are portrayed as in the show? Yes they used the anarchist trappings to start, but immediately they become radicalized. Using the internet and social media, they spread information that benefits their cause. They tell people the government doesn't care about them, but they do. And then they get them to take part in dangerous acts like bank robberies, where they can die as a distraction to further the cause. Because they've given themselves the serum, they are at much less risk to compared to the average joe's they wrangle to cause more chaos. All of this screams alt right to me. People who think they've cracked the code and see the world as it truly is, but they're just another pawn in someone else's game.
I don't think the people who wrote this show also watch Fox News...
On the first one, yeah I get it, fuck banks... But people die in real bank robberies... Especially innocent people. And the second part... Stealing vaccines means someone isn't getting it. Sure, the Flagsmashers handed it out quicker, but people may die as a result of both of these actions.
Also let me quote a certain lionized individual.
The whole world is literally telling them to move. They're just staying "no, you move."
Penny Arcade Rockstar Social Club / This is why I despise cyclists
Anarchists did not make up the bulk of old-school European anti-fascist movements. Some were anarchists but many other others were socialists, communists, or conservatives that still supported democratic rule.
Anarchism is not prerequisite for anti-fascism.
I get "That's WS, this is Bucky" but still.
Well that would never happen considering that’s a fairly absurd view of his actions as a character.
WS Bucky got handled by T'Challa in street clothes and he kind of takes control of the end of the Walker fight.
They didn't want to hurt Walker and didn't turn up the dial until it was clear he was so far gone he was willing to kill them too.
It seem they have written in calibration issues for Bucky where he dials back a bit too much because he knows the level of damage he can do if he doesn't care like the WS.
Also bucky never got the real serum, he got Zollers knock off whatever the fuck stuff.
pleasepaypreacher.net
pleasepaypreacher.net
Also Walker was throwing to kill. Steve throws to injure or disarm. If he really wanted two, Steve could cleave a human in two as easily as dry sticks.
He is, factually speaking, both a supersoldier, and considered a terrorist by the government in at least two movies
Sure, but by that definition half the avengers are terrorists too, at one point Sam included. They still managed to save ummm.... Half the galaxy? Maybe we can let those things slide now?
Well yes, they were indeed considered terrorists. I feel like that may have been an interesting thing to bring up in Sam and Karli's conversation!
Sam might've gotten there if Walker hadn't panicked. He was probably saving the "what makes a terrorist" conversation for after he got Karli past the whole "the people I kill are objects in my path" bit.
It was touched on lightly with Sharon Carter in Madripoor.
Eh, I think he was considered more an enemy of the state or wanted fugitive than a terrorist. I can’t think of any point where Steve uses violence and intimidation for political purposes.
They fucking...broke War Machine's back!!! They blew up an airport!
Which is, again, one of the reasons I think this show having Sam/Bucky work so closely with the military, enough that they are called "government contractors" is not a great path for them. In my mind, the Avengers need to be distanced pretty heavily from the American government and military. They're a global super-hero unit, they shouldn't be an arm of the American Military, Basically. They're not Navy Seals.
Oh, I'm sure Ross bandied the words about between Civil War and Infinity War. I doubt anyone took the allegation seriously.
Getting slightly afield of TFAWS for a moment, it's not clear how actively the government pursued Team Cap. We know Iron Man and the loyal Avengers didn't take part—Endgame's opening being the first time Steve and Tony have encountered each other since Siberia—and mundane spec ops teams pose no threat. I get the impression Team Cap had to lay low but rarely saw combat.*
Adds color to Sharon's bitterness, too. For her, "on the run" meant being hounded by the most powerful governments in the world. For Sam, it meant he couldn't go to airports and had to be careful about restaurants.
*
Can you really not think of any times steve uses violence and intimidation for political purposes or do they just happen to be times when you feel they were against the right targets for the right reasons
A Nomad movie with bearded Chris Evans would be fun, but there's no way he's signing up for anything Marvel that's more than a brief cameo or voicework.
I can't think of any time he used intimidation for political purposes.
I can't think of that many times when he didn't use violence in self-defense or against targets who are already engaging him.
Do you have some examples you'd like to post?
Outside of being an actual soldier, not really.
In every appearance Cap is seen fighting organized armies or paramilitary forces. In Avengers they fight an invading alien army, Age of Ultron they start off fighting Hydra and then Ultron’s bots, Infinity War the fight is against Thanos and his armies.
And it’s the same for his solo films. In First Avenger it’s the Nazi’s. In Winter Soldier he actively fights against the US government and Hydra. And in Civil War he fights police to stop them from killing Bucky, Crossbones and his goons, and then his fellow Avengers.
What am I missing that makes Cap a terrorist? And not it’s not because they “just happen to be times when you feel they were against the right targets for the right reasons”.
Steve initiates a million engagements throughout all of his movies, nearly all of which are very well-justified and very much to the right targets for the right reasons in my opinion
I just couldn't think of any time he's actually starting a fight outside of maybe the boat in Winter soldier.
Even in that Nazi camp he was trying to sneak in at first.
You just gave me a list of right targets and right reasons that cap uses violence and intimidation against to achieve his not always but often political goals, i mean you even named two governments. I think the thing you might be missing is that the designation of "terrorist" is itself an extremely politicised and subjective charge that there is not actually a consistent set of criteria for. It is okay to say that "for the right reasons, against the right targets, sometimes violence or intimidation to achieve political goals can be okay"
The flag smashers are terrorists because they blew up a building of civilians in order to send a message to the people in charge. Steve is not a terrorist.
You seem to be using a definition of “terrorist” that’s so broad that it’s essentially meaningless. You’ve even expanded it beyond political violence to include his “not only” political goals.
Steve never makes demands where if some conditions are not met his violence will continue. Most of his actions are in response to some outside threat.
Please, be specific. What does Captain America do that you can clearly point to and reasonably call him a terrorist?