That's the general problem with daemon rosters. They're all shaped by the will of their gods. In Nurgle's case that means everyone is a jolly festering pile of pus with a few insects&frogs thrown in to make it at least slightly interesting. For slaanesh it's pink genderqueer out of a "gladiatorial crabmonsters"-theme sex dungeon.
Not even Tzeentch (the Lord of Change) has that much variety, even if his tastes range from mystic knights riding demondiscs to bird-demons and chittering horrors blubbering along while throwing magic fire.
The rosters with most variety are probably Cathay (although they're pretty similarish in that their slow units are fast and their fast units are slow) and Ogres. Kislev is somewhere in the middle, where someone decided that their 16th century russian army wasn't complete without a lot more bears and ice.
Kislev also has Winged Hussars from Poland
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SpectrumArcher of InfernoChaldea Rec RoomRegistered Userregular
That's the general problem with daemon rosters. They're all shaped by the will of their gods. In Nurgle's case that means everyone is a jolly festering pile of pus with a few insects&frogs thrown in to make it at least slightly interesting. For slaanesh it's pink genderqueer out of a "gladiatorial crabmonsters"-theme sex dungeon.
Not even Tzeentch (the Lord of Change) has that much variety, even if his tastes range from mystic knights riding demondiscs to bird-demons and chittering horrors blubbering along while throwing magic fire.
The rosters with most variety are probably Cathay (although they're pretty similarish in that their slow units are fast and their fast units are slow) and Ogres. Kislev is somewhere in the middle, where someone decided that their 16th century russian army wasn't complete without a lot more bears and ice.
Yeah, but the problem to me is how they play. Nurgle just plods forward, by first reckoning, which is neither that interesting nor would I expect it to be that good. Even Ogres look like they have more options. Meanwhile Tzeentch looks to have skirmishing, ranged firepower, and good spellcasting.
Slaanesh and Khorne at least look like they have some speed and punch to run forward and around with, though I still have a lot of doubts about the rest of the roster.
I feel like they’re taking the very small starting rosters for the monogods to try and be experimental with their army design. It’s hard to say how it will be in practice though, as without ranged troops and only having furies for flyers, I’m not sure how Slaanesh handles flying units for example.
Hope it’s not gonna be a situation where the armies might be in awkward spots until DLC adds desperately needed options.
BethrynUnhappiness is MandatoryRegistered Userregular
Wood Elf roster variety has always been good.
Classic elfy rangers and spear-users and horse/stagriders, dryads and treemen, forest dragons, great eagles and hawkriders, and half-stag King and butterfly Queen. The tabletop has (used to have?) a lot more specialisation for Dryads, Treemen etc. for different types of tree and season.
...and of course, as always, Kill Hitler.
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
Classic elfy rangers and spear-users and horse/stagriders, dryads and treemen, forest dragons, great eagles and hawkriders, and half-stag King and butterfly Queen. The tabletop has (used to have?) a lot more specialisation for Dryads, Treemen etc. for different types of tree and season.
They have those specializations in Total Warhammer 2
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SpectrumArcher of InfernoChaldea Rec RoomRegistered Userregular
Rhesus and Memnon are two new Epic Heroes from Homer’s Iliad who have come to bolster the defenses of Troy in its time of great need.
Rhesus, the mighty king of Thrace, is a latecomer to Troy’s defense and has promised to repel the Greeks and conquer their strongholds. With his introduction, a new playable faction is revealed – the blood-thirsty and fierce tribes of Thrace. Rhesus’s roster is unique and relies on fierce charges and mighty chariots.
Memnon, half-cousin of Paris and Hector, is a warrior-king of the far sun-drenched lands of Aethiopia, which is a vassal state of Pharaonic Egypt. Memnon leads a horde-style military expedition to prevent the bloody assault on Troy by defeating the Achaean forces. Beginning his campaign on the island of Rhodes, he must call upon reinforcements from the Pharaoh to aid his war efforts.
What are the new faction mechanics?
Rhesus:
Countless Host: Rhesus must seek out and unite the various inter-warring Thracian tribes and unite them under one banner. Doing so unlocks the summoning of powerful host armies to ravage the land of eternal enemies.
Thracian Rituals: Blessed with immense religious powers, Rhesus enacts rituals to please the old cults of Thrace. These grant a variety of bonuses, including access to elite units, settlement bonuses and army buffs.
Memnon:
Horde: Memnon seeks but one thing – to raze every inch of Achaea. Therefore, his military expedition cannot inhabit settlements but can take advantage of War Spoils to further power his war efforts in defense of Troy.
Pharaoh’s Servant: Memnon relies on the influence and wealth of his Pharaoh to reinforce his ranks with soldiers from far-off lands. He must enact Royal Decrees to unlock units from each of the four regions: Aethiopia, Egypt, Canaan and Susa.
Resourceful Strategist: Memnon does not have access to Spy, Envoy or Priestess Agents to aid his war efforts. Instead, his prestige attracts camp followers to bolster his armies or grant him special actions before battle.
Sounds neat. Weird time to release it though, Mythos was fairly recent and it’s getting very close to Warhammer 3’s release. Not sure if I’ll play it anytime soon since I played a ton of Troy recently and Warhammer 3 is so close.
Sounds neat. Weird time to release it though, Mythos was fairly recent and it’s getting very close to Warhammer 3’s release. Not sure if I’ll play it anytime soon since I played a ton of Troy recently and Warhammer 3 is so close.
I actually thing Warhammer 3 is why they are releasing it in a couple of weeks. They probably want to get the Troy stuff over and done with so that they can go full focus on selling Warhammer 3 pre-orders and actual sales in January/February. Doing Troy now means they aren't really competing with themselves.
Yeah if they don't ship this soon it'll be near April before they can launch the next Troy DLC and that might coincide with the first WH3 DLC.
Slaanesh news is next week as they're all in on Troy this week.
edit:
From the reddit/discord this is the last Troy DLC. If I had known that earlier I might have picked Troy up in the sale which literally just ended. :?
That is a bit odd, doesn’t this mean the playables are a bit lopsided towards Troy now? I was expecting a greek pack to counter it (though I don’t even really know who else you’d add as greek).
Yeah, feels like a Three Kingdoms situation to me where not enough people are buying the DLC for the executives at CA to justify making more DLC to their shareholders. Even if the DLC was profitable, if its not profitable enough, they'd kill it.
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That_GuyI don't wanna be that guyRegistered Userregular
Warhammer is the only game they have that consistently moved DLC. By all accounts, Warhammer has been their biggest cashs cow ever. Topping sales of all CA's games to date. No other Total War title has received nearly as much attention from the developers and fans. I think Troy has some real potential but was ultimately not as fun as Warhammer. If it got as much attention as Warhammer, I reckon it could get there but that's clearly not going to happen. Most of CA's people are working on bringing Warhammer 3 to us so I'm kind of surprising Troy is getting any attention at all.
Warhammer is the only game they have that consistently moved DLC. By all accounts, Warhammer has been their biggest cashs cow ever. Topping sales of all CA's games to date. No other Total War title has received nearly as much attention from the developers and fans. I think Troy has some real potential but was ultimately not as fun as Warhammer. If it got as much attention as Warhammer, I reckon it could get there but that's clearly not going to happen. Most of CA's people are working on bringing Warhammer 3 to us so I'm kind of surprising Troy is getting any attention at all.
Hell, even some of the Devs have commented on how Warhammer felt like the game they'd been preparing to make this whole time.
Axen on
A Capellan's favorite sheath for any blade is your back.
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That_GuyI don't wanna be that guyRegistered Userregular
Warhammer is the only game they have that consistently moved DLC. By all accounts, Warhammer has been their biggest cashs cow ever. Topping sales of all CA's games to date. No other Total War title has received nearly as much attention from the developers and fans. I think Troy has some real potential but was ultimately not as fun as Warhammer. If it got as much attention as Warhammer, I reckon it could get there but that's clearly not going to happen. Most of CA's people are working on bringing Warhammer 3 to us so I'm kind of surprising Troy is getting any attention at all.
Hell, even some of the Devs have commented on how Warhammer felt like the game they'd been preparing to make this whole time.
It really does feel like the ultimate expression of the formula they've been building on for the last 20 years. They took the best parts of all the games to date and got to run wild in a fantasy setting that has been in development for even longer.
Warhammer is the only game they have that consistently moved DLC. By all accounts, Warhammer has been their biggest cashs cow ever. Topping sales of all CA's games to date. No other Total War title has received nearly as much attention from the developers and fans. I think Troy has some real potential but was ultimately not as fun as Warhammer. If it got as much attention as Warhammer, I reckon it could get there but that's clearly not going to happen. Most of CA's people are working on bringing Warhammer 3 to us so I'm kind of surprising Troy is getting any attention at all.
Warhammer DLCs have also consistently been pretty content rich.
Look at Attila DLCs by comparison "We have three new factions. But they're all just slightly reskinned units, if we're lucky with some slight modifications, units from previous content, a new building (which we conveniently don't have to make a model for) and some modifiers".
Even the laziest Warhammer DLC (which is, if we ignore Blood for the Blood God, undoubtedly Grim&the Grave) has 18 reskinned units (RoRs), 5 new units and 2 legendary lords (with their associated quests). Hell, we got the Brettonia as a FreeLC, and Brettonia has more meat to it than most total war games starting factions.
Now, not every Warhammer DLC has been gold. The Hunter&The Beast is one case where I think everyone gave Markus Wulfhart and Nakai at most one playthrough and then put them aside to never be touched ever again. But it was still a pretty meaty DLC.
"The western world sips from a poisonous cocktail: Polarisation, populism, protectionism and post-truth"
-Antje Jackelén, Archbishop of the Church of Sweden
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SpectrumArcher of InfernoChaldea Rec RoomRegistered Userregular
They've got a few years of DLC planned I'm sure, but I can't see CA and GW ending their partnership after how successful this has been.
On the CA side, we know that 3K 2.0 is under development. And I believe they also have some kind of multiplayer shooter in the works for some bizarre reason.
On the CA side, we know that 3K 2.0 is under development. And I believe they also have some kind of multiplayer shooter in the works for some bizarre reason.
MP shooters are not a genre I like at all but I wouldn't write them off if they're actually making one. CA might surprise us again. They did make a pretty good horror game once.
40k Total War. You could have planets and hyperspace lanes instead of cities and tertian obstacles.
Indypride speculates TW 40k is going to enter pre-production soon. I hope it's true.
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That_GuyI don't wanna be that guyRegistered Userregular
Oh man, how cool would it be if CA added an extra layer to the campaign map for a 40k game? Instead of a whole planet having a single battle map, you could have mini campaign maps on each planet. It could be simplified into just a handful of settlements but would add an interesting new layer to the campaign. You use hyperspace lanes (with random chance of shit happening in route) to get to a planet than planetfall could take you to a smaller map where you fight standing armies and take settlements. They could bring back naval engagements in the form of starship battles. They could refine the boarding mechanic into a mini battle itself where the ship model is cutaway into corridors and compartments.
I wonder how that would shake out, I imagine they could make a really good game in the toy model (I consider WH1-2 to be great toybox games at the basic single player level, and not at all in a bad way, and then cheese/how do I break it? games as the difficulty ramps, and actual competitive game in multiplayer) But I'd worry they can't catch the lucky magic again for a multiplayer scene the way they did with warhammer 1 and 2. Just gotta be even more of a balance nightmare with all the pew pew folks, seems like melee of SOME sort is just so important to their tactical formula, and I feel like in 40k you just...don't have to have that.
I wonder how that would shake out, I imagine they could make a really good game in the toy model (I consider WH1-2 to be great toybox games at the basic single player level, and not at all in a bad way, and then cheese/how do I break it? games as the difficulty ramps, and actual competitive game in multiplayer) But I'd worry they can't catch the lucky magic again for a multiplayer scene the way they did with warhammer 1 and 2. Just gotta be even more of a balance nightmare with all the pew pew folks, seems like melee of SOME sort is just so important to their tactical formula, and I feel like in 40k you just...don't have to have that.
That's what jetpacks are for
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That_GuyI don't wanna be that guyRegistered Userregular
They way to balance it is to limit range on weapons and give melee greater speed than the range
Battle maps could also limit firing arcs with settlement and terrain features. Imagine sieging down a 40k mega city filled with tight corners and wicked choke points.
And Skaven, Vampire Coast, and Empire can already form some absurd ranged stacks. I somehow doubt 40k could get that much appreciably worse about it. When you get down to it, I can’t see how a heavy Bolter would operate that much differently than a Ratling Gun. Hell, most ranged infantry would require line of sight which is at least less of a pain to deal with than *gestures wildly at the Elves*
I wonder how that would shake out, I imagine they could make a really good game in the toy model (I consider WH1-2 to be great toybox games at the basic single player level, and not at all in a bad way, and then cheese/how do I break it? games as the difficulty ramps, and actual competitive game in multiplayer) But I'd worry they can't catch the lucky magic again for a multiplayer scene the way they did with warhammer 1 and 2. Just gotta be even more of a balance nightmare with all the pew pew folks, seems like melee of SOME sort is just so important to their tactical formula, and I feel like in 40k you just...don't have to have that.
This is… more or less already a solved problem.
Warhammer 1-2 have
Pure ranged line infantry troops
Pure ranged artillery troops
Pure line melee troops of various purpose
Pure melee monster
Mixed ranged/melee monsters
Ranged chariots
Ranged Flying units Mages
Going “more ranged” isn’t going to change much except that strategy changes a bit (and let’s be honest all of those apply really well already in Warhammer 1-2 which has significant ranged*)
So “all” you really need to to make a bunch of interesting maps with trenches et al and you’re good to go. You might have some issues with “fast movers” like planes but those things can be abilities instead of units on the board (if they’re so fast as to not present themselves as targets like that)
*that is, setting up enfilade and defilade fire is really strong against all infantry types. And the length of your lines and formation of your units is really valuable in defending against that when it happens
I may be biased because I absolutely can not fuck with most powder in WH because sight lines are...not bad but they often feel like they don't work as you'd expect. And ratling guns are a good example of something that works in my mind largely due to the scaling that makes sense in the setting. I guess to my brain 40k the pew pew is just a whole lot stronger, and melee doesn't really keep up the same way, but it's all space wizard armor anyway so it's fine I guess. As for megacities and trenches....I really hope they crack that nut better than they did sieges. And who knows, I'd love to eat crow and WH3 has amazing sieges. And to be clear, it's at MINIMUM a fun toybox game, i'm more curious about the lightning in a bottle you need to end up with a multiplayer community, because that did drive a lot of content and engagement, even for people who never touch multiplayer.
Part of me is against 40k because I think the battles will just look weird at that scale? Like guardsmen or tau yeah I can see taking up a firing line but space marines?
Most of the ranged stacks you see in Wahammer fall on line with what Empire did. The combat I picture 40k having always felt like more modern fare except sometimes and chains word or deamon pops up.
But after the success of Warhammer I think it is inevitable, and will probably be good.
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AxenMy avatar is Excalibur.Yes, the sword.Registered Userregular
Honestly I figured they'd go to Age of Sigmar next.
A Capellan's favorite sheath for any blade is your back.
I think the real thing that would cause a major change-up with TW:40k is that a lot of armies (especially at the scale of battle in TW) would be making extensive use of transports.
Yeah, 40k Total War would require a different style of battle map, much larger and having something to prevent excessive turtling like control points you need to take.
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That_GuyI don't wanna be that guyRegistered Userregular
You all called me crazy when I insisted up and down that Cathay would end up in TW3. I'm going to make Total War 40k the hill I die on. Sure it would be a pretty radical divergence from their typical formula but I think it could really work. I don't think anyone was complaining about the size and scope of battles in DoW so I feel pretty confident that CA can handle it.
I could easily see GW going "I don't know how you'll do it, but you are going to do it".
Case in point, I have no freaking clue what campaign maps might look like, what battles would be, etc. But I trust CA in that whichever direction they go in itll be a good version of that.
Also, I love nerds on reddit who say CA can't do a 40k game - it wouldn't be total war.
I mean, sure? Yeah it'll play differently. It would not be TW as we know it now. But CA also made a survival horror Aliens game. They can make whatever games they please.
(I assume a 40k game would drive significsnt under the hood mechanical changes to the current engine)
Before Warhammer 1 (which came out five and a half years ago jeez) CA had never done flying units, magic or monsters.
Now look at all the crazy stuff they're pulling off with TW3.
They'll definitely figure out a way to do 40K right.
After 40K they've also got Age of Sigmar to play with.
GW are actively recruiting people in to their games licencing division and the job advert mentions CA so I'd assume their partnership is going to last for a while.
SharpyVII on
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-Loki-Don't pee in my mouth and tell me it's raining.Registered Userregular
They way to balance it is to limit range on weapons and give melee greater speed than the range
Battle maps could also limit firing arcs with settlement and terrain features. Imagine sieging down a 40k mega city filled with tight corners and wicked choke points.
40k also has notoriously short ranges on guns. Most rifle type weapons have a range of about what a bow would have.
Also melee focused units and armies have ways of getting through firepower, be it hidden movement and sudden attack (Genestealers), tough as nails (Chaos Marines) or even just sheer numbers and you know most will die before they get there (Orks, Genestealers).
On top of that, shooting just isn’t as lethal as it should be.
It would need extra work because it’s not rank and file movement like other Total War games - better way of thinking about it is everything is a skirmisher - but I think 40k would work just fine with how Total War games play.
Also it gives them oodles and oodles of games and DLC. Cadian Astra Militarum as the base game appearance, then DLC for Tallarn, Mordian, Krieg, Steel Legion, etc? The fan base would eat it up and pay up.
Yeah, 40k Total War would require a different style of battle map, much larger and having something to prevent excessive turtling like control points you need to take.
They will need to step up their map game for 40k. People shit on sieges for good reason but we tend to ignore all the other shite campaign battle maps in the game. Some bigger maps and more varied start positions on existing maps might help lessen it a bit.
I hate playing Bretonnia mostly because the maps are tiny and don't offer much flanking opportunities. There's also that one Naggaroth map that was so frequent in my last Malekith campaign that I refuse to play any Dark Elf lords that start there.
"40k Total War" would probably end up being more like "Epic: Total War". For anyone who doesn't know, Epic was a game set in the 40k universe that dealt with a much larger scale by using much smaller models; instead of individual space marines you'd have models representing an entire squad of space marines, so it became possible to field an entire armor division, or even a whole space marine company.
Basically this:
Now imagine that, but in real-time, lovingly rendered with all of the modern graphical bells and whistles of WH:TW. This is how I'd picture a "40k: Total War". Also it means they'd get to break out some of the truly ridiculously huge units that don't really fit into your average game, like Titans, Imperial Knights, Gargants and such.
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Kislev also has Winged Hussars from Poland
Slaanesh and Khorne at least look like they have some speed and punch to run forward and around with, though I still have a lot of doubts about the rest of the roster.
Hope it’s not gonna be a situation where the armies might be in awkward spots until DLC adds desperately needed options.
Classic elfy rangers and spear-users and horse/stagriders, dryads and treemen, forest dragons, great eagles and hawkriders, and half-stag King and butterfly Queen. The tabletop has (used to have?) a lot more specialisation for Dryads, Treemen etc. for different types of tree and season.
They have those specializations in Total Warhammer 2
I actually thing Warhammer 3 is why they are releasing it in a couple of weeks. They probably want to get the Troy stuff over and done with so that they can go full focus on selling Warhammer 3 pre-orders and actual sales in January/February. Doing Troy now means they aren't really competing with themselves.
Slaanesh news is next week as they're all in on Troy this week.
edit:
From the reddit/discord this is the last Troy DLC. If I had known that earlier I might have picked Troy up in the sale which literally just ended. :?
9th LL will be revealed in January.
Hell, even some of the Devs have commented on how Warhammer felt like the game they'd been preparing to make this whole time.
It really does feel like the ultimate expression of the formula they've been building on for the last 20 years. They took the best parts of all the games to date and got to run wild in a fantasy setting that has been in development for even longer.
They've got a few years of DLC planned I'm sure, but I can't see CA and GW ending their partnership after how successful this has been.
40k Total War. You could have planets and hyperspace lanes instead of cities and tertian obstacles.
Warhammer DLCs have also consistently been pretty content rich.
Look at Attila DLCs by comparison "We have three new factions. But they're all just slightly reskinned units, if we're lucky with some slight modifications, units from previous content, a new building (which we conveniently don't have to make a model for) and some modifiers".
Even the laziest Warhammer DLC (which is, if we ignore Blood for the Blood God, undoubtedly Grim&the Grave) has 18 reskinned units (RoRs), 5 new units and 2 legendary lords (with their associated quests). Hell, we got the Brettonia as a FreeLC, and Brettonia has more meat to it than most total war games starting factions.
Now, not every Warhammer DLC has been gold. The Hunter&The Beast is one case where I think everyone gave Markus Wulfhart and Nakai at most one playthrough and then put them aside to never be touched ever again. But it was still a pretty meaty DLC.
-Antje Jackelén, Archbishop of the Church of Sweden
MP shooters are not a genre I like at all but I wouldn't write them off if they're actually making one. CA might surprise us again. They did make a pretty good horror game once.
Indypride speculates TW 40k is going to enter pre-production soon. I hope it's true.
I have no many ideas for how they could do this.
That's what jetpacks are for
Battle maps could also limit firing arcs with settlement and terrain features. Imagine sieging down a 40k mega city filled with tight corners and wicked choke points.
Hell, a lot of the Daemon armies can transfer over many of their models.
PSN: Bizazedo
CFN: Bizazedo (I don't think I suck, add me).
This is… more or less already a solved problem.
Warhammer 1-2 have
Pure ranged line infantry troops
Pure ranged artillery troops
Pure line melee troops of various purpose
Pure melee monster
Mixed ranged/melee monsters
Ranged chariots
Ranged Flying units
Mages
Going “more ranged” isn’t going to change much except that strategy changes a bit (and let’s be honest all of those apply really well already in Warhammer 1-2 which has significant ranged*)
So “all” you really need to to make a bunch of interesting maps with trenches et al and you’re good to go. You might have some issues with “fast movers” like planes but those things can be abilities instead of units on the board (if they’re so fast as to not present themselves as targets like that)
*that is, setting up enfilade and defilade fire is really strong against all infantry types. And the length of your lines and formation of your units is really valuable in defending against that when it happens
Most of the ranged stacks you see in Wahammer fall on line with what Empire did. The combat I picture 40k having always felt like more modern fare except sometimes and chains word or deamon pops up.
But after the success of Warhammer I think it is inevitable, and will probably be good.
TWarhammer makes it rain MONEY for CA and GW.
I could easily see GW going "I don't know how you'll do it, but you are going to do it".
Case in point, I have no freaking clue what campaign maps might look like, what battles would be, etc. But I trust CA in that whichever direction they go in itll be a good version of that.
Also, I love nerds on reddit who say CA can't do a 40k game - it wouldn't be total war.
I mean, sure? Yeah it'll play differently. It would not be TW as we know it now. But CA also made a survival horror Aliens game. They can make whatever games they please.
(I assume a 40k game would drive significsnt under the hood mechanical changes to the current engine)
Now look at all the crazy stuff they're pulling off with TW3.
They'll definitely figure out a way to do 40K right.
After 40K they've also got Age of Sigmar to play with.
GW are actively recruiting people in to their games licencing division and the job advert mentions CA so I'd assume their partnership is going to last for a while.
40k also has notoriously short ranges on guns. Most rifle type weapons have a range of about what a bow would have.
Also melee focused units and armies have ways of getting through firepower, be it hidden movement and sudden attack (Genestealers), tough as nails (Chaos Marines) or even just sheer numbers and you know most will die before they get there (Orks, Genestealers).
On top of that, shooting just isn’t as lethal as it should be.
It would need extra work because it’s not rank and file movement like other Total War games - better way of thinking about it is everything is a skirmisher - but I think 40k would work just fine with how Total War games play.
Also it gives them oodles and oodles of games and DLC. Cadian Astra Militarum as the base game appearance, then DLC for Tallarn, Mordian, Krieg, Steel Legion, etc? The fan base would eat it up and pay up.
They will need to step up their map game for 40k. People shit on sieges for good reason but we tend to ignore all the other shite campaign battle maps in the game. Some bigger maps and more varied start positions on existing maps might help lessen it a bit.
I hate playing Bretonnia mostly because the maps are tiny and don't offer much flanking opportunities. There's also that one Naggaroth map that was so frequent in my last Malekith campaign that I refuse to play any Dark Elf lords that start there.
Basically this:
Now imagine that, but in real-time, lovingly rendered with all of the modern graphical bells and whistles of WH:TW. This is how I'd picture a "40k: Total War". Also it means they'd get to break out some of the truly ridiculously huge units that don't really fit into your average game, like Titans, Imperial Knights, Gargants and such.