If you don't subscribe to vaccinations, I feel like that should be automatic disqualification from any medical job. Ever.
It's like being a chemist but thinking the periodic table is a fucking hoax.
Oh, I agree, and I honestly hope that things like vaccinations are included in the hiring documentation of all people working in healthcare going forward.
I just think there's a difference between not being eligible for a job because you aren't willing to be vaccinated, and being fired after the fact for refusing it.
And my hesitation is only slight, and only because I don't trust the current US court system, given that Gorsuch ruled that you can be fired for abandoning your truck when the alternative is a very real possibility of freezing to death.
If the US had strong labor laws to stop employer fuckery, then there wouldn't be any hesitation.
I mean we require vaccinations for all sorts of other things. You can't go to public school without certain ones. You can't get certain jobs overseas without them. It's not brand new...
Once those vaccines are fully vetted and approved by the FDA, not before. No COVID-19 vaccine has left Emergency Use Authorization yet. And that is a meritorious distinction to make when it comes to labor rights and worker protection. I pointed out earlier, Hydroxychloroquine was granted EUA for a month or two in the middle of everything. I don't want to let Mike Lindell be fully in his legal rights to fire someone with a fever unless they take this pill that, it turns out, only resulted in more death. Once it's bog standard approved? Fire away. Before?
Healthcare is a very unique circumstance and context, though. So I'm a bit more in the grey on my feelings there.
The hydroxychloroquine argument is so bad.
You're comparing a treatment to a preventative measure, and you need a doctor to prescribe that drug.
Mike Lindell can't force anyone to take any drug that a doctor will not prescribe.
If you don't subscribe to vaccinations, I feel like that should be automatic disqualification from any medical job. Ever.
It's like being a chemist but thinking the periodic table is a fucking hoax.
Oh, I agree, and I honestly hope that things like vaccinations are included in the hiring documentation of all people working in healthcare going forward.
I just think there's a difference between not being eligible for a job because you aren't willing to be vaccinated, and being fired after the fact for refusing it.
And my hesitation is only slight, and only because I don't trust the current US court system, given that Gorsuch ruled that you can be fired for abandoning your truck when the alternative is a very real possibility of freezing to death.
If the US had strong labor laws to stop employer fuckery, then there wouldn't be any hesitation.
I mean we require vaccinations for all sorts of other things. You can't go to public school without certain ones. You can't get certain jobs overseas without them. It's not brand new...
Once those vaccines are fully vetted and approved by the FDA, not before. No COVID-19 vaccine has left Emergency Use Authorization yet. And that is a meritorious distinction to make when it comes to labor rights and worker protection. I pointed out earlier, Hydroxychloroquine was granted EUA for a month or two in the middle of everything. I don't want to let Mike Lindell be fully in his legal rights to fire someone with a fever unless they take this pill that, it turns out, only resulted in more death. Once it's bog standard approved? Fire away. Before?
Healthcare is a very unique circumstance and context, though. So I'm a bit more in the grey on my feelings there.
The hydroxychloroquine argument is so bad.
You're comparing a treatment to a preventative measure, and you need a doctor to prescribe that drug.
Mike Lindell can't force anyone to take any drug that a doctor will not prescribe.
Agreed... where experimental vaccines are in the job description you can still decline post-incident antibiotic treatment and so on. The only thing that comes to mind about mandating treatments is in the military.
Re: hydroxychloroquine, how many people that relied on that drug to treat their lupus or arthritis were harmed by companies hoarding the drug in anticipation of using it in large quantities to treat COVID-19?
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
Re: hydroxychloroquine, how many people that relied on that drug to treat their lupus or arthritis were harmed by companies hoarding the drug in anticipation of using it in large quantities to treat COVID-19?
And you'll notice how it never materialized into anything.
Because, like I said earlier, the medical professionals who would be prescribing this have intelligence and agency and largely fucking knew better.
Re: hydroxychloroquine, how many people that relied on that drug to treat their lupus or arthritis were harmed by companies hoarding the drug in anticipation of using it in large quantities to treat COVID-19?
And you'll notice how it never materialized into anything.
Because, like I said earlier, the medical professionals who would be prescribing this have intelligence and agency and largely fucking knew better.
Nope! It was hoarded early on and it did create disruptions.
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
Re: hydroxychloroquine, how many people that relied on that drug to treat their lupus or arthritis were harmed by companies hoarding the drug in anticipation of using it in large quantities to treat COVID-19?
And you'll notice how it never materialized into anything.
Because, like I said earlier, the medical professionals who would be prescribing this have intelligence and agency and largely fucking knew better.
Nope! It was hoarded early on and it did create disruptions.
I... know.
But it wasn't prescribed en masse by doctors.
I know drug companies are shit, we all do, and we knew the disruption would happen. But the idea that because it was FDA approved that we would have people forced to take the drug by their bosses is absolutely absurd.
Re: hydroxychloroquine, how many people that relied on that drug to treat their lupus or arthritis were harmed by companies hoarding the drug in anticipation of using it in large quantities to treat COVID-19?
And you'll notice how it never materialized into anything.
Because, like I said earlier, the medical professionals who would be prescribing this have intelligence and agency and largely fucking knew better.
Nope! It was hoarded early on and it did create disruptions.
I... know.
But it wasn't prescribed en masse by doctors.
I know drug companies are shit, we all do, and we knew the disruption would happen. But the idea that because it was FDA approved that we would have people forced to take the drug by their bosses is absolutely absurd.
The post you were responding to was about companies hoarding and you said "nope" to that....?
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
Re: hydroxychloroquine, how many people that relied on that drug to treat their lupus or arthritis were harmed by companies hoarding the drug in anticipation of using it in large quantities to treat COVID-19?
And you'll notice how it never materialized into anything.
Because, like I said earlier, the medical professionals who would be prescribing this have intelligence and agency and largely fucking knew better.
Nope! It was hoarded early on and it did create disruptions.
I... know.
But it wasn't prescribed en masse by doctors.
I know drug companies are shit, we all do, and we knew the disruption would happen. But the idea that because it was FDA approved that we would have people forced to take the drug by their bosses is absolutely absurd.
The post you were responding to was about companies hoarding and you said "nope" to that....?
I said "and you'll notice how it never materialized into anything."
Because I was specifically debating the idea that it was possible for bosses to force their employees to take the drug to come back to work which
A - Did not happen (never materialized into anything, because of doctors)
B - Would never happen (the rest of the discussion)
Re: hydroxychloroquine, how many people that relied on that drug to treat their lupus or arthritis were harmed by companies hoarding the drug in anticipation of using it in large quantities to treat COVID-19?
And you'll notice how it never materialized into anything.
Because, like I said earlier, the medical professionals who would be prescribing this have intelligence and agency and largely fucking knew better.
Nope! It was hoarded early on and it did create disruptions.
I... know.
But it wasn't prescribed en masse by doctors.
I know drug companies are shit, we all do, and we knew the disruption would happen. But the idea that because it was FDA approved that we would have people forced to take the drug by their bosses is absolutely absurd.
The post you were responding to was about companies hoarding and you said "nope" to that....?
I said "and you'll notice how it never materialized into anything."
Because I was specifically debating the idea that it was possible for bosses to force their employees to take the drug to come back to work which
A - Did not happen (never materialized into anything, because of doctors)
B - Would never happen (the rest of the discussion)
Oh I'm sorry that I wasn't clear with my post. I wasn't intending to make any assertion that mass use of hydroxychloroquine happened and I wasn't even really thinking about the forced vaccination argument when I asked the question. It was really just something that I was curious about, because it was a big deal at the time but it quickly faded from the conversation about Trump's mishandling of the pandemic. I remember hearing anecdotes at the time about relatives being unable to get the drug and suffering because of it, and I wanted to know just how bad the impact of it really was. The lack of people talking about it now makes me think that it ended up being a relatively minor inconvenience, but it could also be that it was a major problem for a small number of people and therefore easily forgotten.
getting a vaccine is not a fuckin medical procedure no need to be hyperbolic about it
not understanding or caring about the consequences for not getting vaccinated absolutely should disqualify you from medical professions imo
From many things. The germ theory doesn't give a shit about someone's stupid personal beliefs. We need to be WAY more strict about vaccinations in all walks of life. The anti-vaxxers made this a thing and it needs to be crushed.
If you don't subscribe to vaccinations, I feel like that should be automatic disqualification from any medical job. Ever.
It's like being a chemist but thinking the periodic table is a fucking hoax.
Oh, I agree, and I honestly hope that things like vaccinations are included in the hiring documentation of all people working in healthcare going forward.
I just think there's a difference between not being eligible for a job because you aren't willing to be vaccinated, and being fired after the fact for refusing it.
And my hesitation is only slight, and only because I don't trust the current US court system, given that Gorsuch ruled that you can be fired for abandoning your truck when the alternative is a very real possibility of freezing to death.
If the US had strong labor laws to stop employer fuckery, then there wouldn't be any hesitation.
I mean we require vaccinations for all sorts of other things. You can't go to public school without certain ones. You can't get certain jobs overseas without them. It's not brand new...
Once those vaccines are fully vetted and approved by the FDA, not before. No COVID-19 vaccine has left Emergency Use Authorization yet. And that is a meritorious distinction to make when it comes to labor rights and worker protection. I pointed out earlier, Hydroxychloroquine was granted EUA for a month or two in the middle of everything. I don't want to let Mike Lindell be fully in his legal rights to fire someone with a fever unless they take this pill that, it turns out, only resulted in more death. Once it's bog standard approved? Fire away. Before?
Healthcare is a very unique circumstance and context, though. So I'm a bit more in the grey on my feelings there.
The hydroxychloroquine argument is so bad.
You're comparing a treatment to a preventative measure, and you need a doctor to prescribe that drug.
Mike Lindell can't force anyone to take any drug that a doctor will not prescribe.
Yes, I am aware that you have a lot more faith in the integrity of on-site OSHA Violation Prevention Doctors than I do.
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MayabirdPecking at the keyboardRegistered Userregular
As a reminder of the stupidity that really, truly got us into this endless pandemic in the first place, Trump wanted to exile Americans positive with COVID to Guantanamo Bay. Also he wanted to block testing because the numbers made him look bad, but we already kinda knew that. It's what literally every other authoritarian government and tinpot dictator has done this entire time - cover up the numbers and who cares if the bodies pile in the streets.
Re: hydroxychloroquine, how many people that relied on that drug to treat their lupus or arthritis were harmed by companies hoarding the drug in anticipation of using it in large quantities to treat COVID-19?
And you'll notice how it never materialized into anything.
Because, like I said earlier, the medical professionals who would be prescribing this have intelligence and agency and largely fucking knew better.
I'm sorry but medical professionals are not universally intelligent, and if my in-laws and friends in the medical industry are of any personal evidence to me, very fucking bad on separating science and myth.
We often think of doctors as serious human biologists who operate on data-driven information but they regularly don't and it's a very regular indictment of the entire industry.
While I would like to believe that doctors and nurses would be a safety valve for preventing employer's actions driven by bad advice, the truth is they're as vulnerable and susceptible as the average joe.
We are still putting stents into folks with heart disease but in stable condition despite the data telling us not to do it anymore. Doctors are not as good at this science thing as everyone thinks.
I agree, btw, with the idea of firing people for not accepting a vaccine during a pandemic. I'm not so worried about the ramifications of doing so. But I think Morgan and moniker's argument bears some merit, the FDA should absolutely be the authority on the matter of whether something is safe to mandate or not, and medical professionals, I'm sorry, are not to be blanket assumed to have my best interests at heart. They're running businesses.
Also, doctors increased their hydroxychloroquine prescriptions 80-fold during the pandemic, and much of that came from doctors who didn't normally prescribe the medication. CDC link- https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6935a4.htm
Re: hydroxychloroquine, how many people that relied on that drug to treat their lupus or arthritis were harmed by companies hoarding the drug in anticipation of using it in large quantities to treat COVID-19?
And you'll notice how it never materialized into anything.
Because, like I said earlier, the medical professionals who would be prescribing this have intelligence and agency and largely fucking knew better.
I'm sorry but medical professionals are not universally intelligent, and if my in-laws and friends in the medical industry are of any personal evidence to me, very fucking bad on separating science and myth.
We often think of doctors as serious human biologists who operate on data-driven information but they regularly don't and it's a very regular indictment of the entire industry.
While I would like to believe that doctors and nurses would be a safety valve for preventing employer's actions driven by bad advice, the truth is they're as vulnerable and susceptible as the average joe.
We are still putting stents into folks with heart disease but in stable condition despite the data telling us not to do it anymore. Doctors are not as good at this science thing as everyone thinks.
I agree, btw, with the idea of firing people for not accepting a vaccine during a pandemic. I'm not so worried about the ramifications of doing so. But I think Morgan and moniker's argument bears some merit, the FDA should absolutely be the authority on the matter of whether something is safe to mandate or not, and medical professionals, I'm sorry, are not to be blanket assumed to have my best interests at heart. They're running businesses.
Also, doctors increased their hydroxychloroquine prescriptions 80-fold during the pandemic, and much of that came from doctors who didn't normally prescribe the medication. CDC link- https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6935a4.htm
I'm also aware of quacks. We have several in the media, several with practicing medical degrees. I'm also aware not all doctors are great and not all nurses are great. There's a reason for certifications, after all.
Also, humans be humans.
But, generally speaking, that's who you're gonna go to if you get sick. And the report shows an 80 fold increase that wouldn't even cover 2 days worth of cases in June 2020, which means the doctors shooting out those HCQ scripts were in the vast minority. Remember, we had well over 2 million COVID cases by the end the June. The use of HCQ isn't even within the margin of error on treatment options
Re: hydroxychloroquine, how many people that relied on that drug to treat their lupus or arthritis were harmed by companies hoarding the drug in anticipation of using it in large quantities to treat COVID-19?
And you'll notice how it never materialized into anything.
Because, like I said earlier, the medical professionals who would be prescribing this have intelligence and agency and largely fucking knew better.
I'm sorry but medical professionals are not universally intelligent, and if my in-laws and friends in the medical industry are of any personal evidence to me, very fucking bad on separating science and myth.
We often think of doctors as serious human biologists who operate on data-driven information but they regularly don't and it's a very regular indictment of the entire industry.
While I would like to believe that doctors and nurses would be a safety valve for preventing employer's actions driven by bad advice, the truth is they're as vulnerable and susceptible as the average joe.
We are still putting stents into folks with heart disease but in stable condition despite the data telling us not to do it anymore. Doctors are not as good at this science thing as everyone thinks.
I agree, btw, with the idea of firing people for not accepting a vaccine during a pandemic. I'm not so worried about the ramifications of doing so. But I think Morgan and moniker's argument bears some merit, the FDA should absolutely be the authority on the matter of whether something is safe to mandate or not, and medical professionals, I'm sorry, are not to be blanket assumed to have my best interests at heart. They're running businesses.
Also, doctors increased their hydroxychloroquine prescriptions 80-fold during the pandemic, and much of that came from doctors who didn't normally prescribe the medication. CDC link- https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6935a4.htm
I'm also aware of quacks. We have several in the media, several with practicing medical degrees. I'm also aware not all doctors are great and not all nurses are great. There's a reason for certifications, after all.
Also, humans be humans.
But, generally speaking, that's who you're gonna go to if you get sick. And the report shows an 80 fold increase that wouldn't even cover 2 days worth of cases in June 2020, which means the doctors shooting out those HCQ scripts were in the vast minority. Remember, we had well over 2 million COVID cases by the end the June. The use of HCQ isn't even within the margin of error on treatment options
If you frame it as a percentage of covid cases in June, sure, but an increase from 1,000+ prescriptions in February to 75,000+ in March is not an insignificant increase to me. Moreover when you consider we only had 168,000 total cases at that time, prescriptions jumping by 74,000 is pretty significant.
My point is not that you shouldn't trust your doctor, my point is that they're not the safety valve for establishing a precedent. Mind you, I don't agree that vaccines and treatments should share any categories and I don't think mandating vaccines should establish precedent for whether it's okay to mandate a treatment of any kind.
Re: hydroxychloroquine, how many people that relied on that drug to treat their lupus or arthritis were harmed by companies hoarding the drug in anticipation of using it in large quantities to treat COVID-19?
And you'll notice how it never materialized into anything.
Because, like I said earlier, the medical professionals who would be prescribing this have intelligence and agency and largely fucking knew better.
I'm sorry but medical professionals are not universally intelligent, and if my in-laws and friends in the medical industry are of any personal evidence to me, very fucking bad on separating science and myth.
We often think of doctors as serious human biologists who operate on data-driven information but they regularly don't and it's a very regular indictment of the entire industry.
While I would like to believe that doctors and nurses would be a safety valve for preventing employer's actions driven by bad advice, the truth is they're as vulnerable and susceptible as the average joe.
We are still putting stents into folks with heart disease but in stable condition despite the data telling us not to do it anymore. Doctors are not as good at this science thing as everyone thinks.
I agree, btw, with the idea of firing people for not accepting a vaccine during a pandemic. I'm not so worried about the ramifications of doing so. But I think Morgan and moniker's argument bears some merit, the FDA should absolutely be the authority on the matter of whether something is safe to mandate or not, and medical professionals, I'm sorry, are not to be blanket assumed to have my best interests at heart. They're running businesses.
Also, doctors increased their hydroxychloroquine prescriptions 80-fold during the pandemic, and much of that came from doctors who didn't normally prescribe the medication. CDC link- https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6935a4.htm
I'm also aware of quacks. We have several in the media, several with practicing medical degrees. I'm also aware not all doctors are great and not all nurses are great. There's a reason for certifications, after all.
Also, humans be humans.
But, generally speaking, that's who you're gonna go to if you get sick. And the report shows an 80 fold increase that wouldn't even cover 2 days worth of cases in June 2020, which means the doctors shooting out those HCQ scripts were in the vast minority. Remember, we had well over 2 million COVID cases by the end the June. The use of HCQ isn't even within the margin of error on treatment options
If you frame it as a percentage of covid cases in June, sure, but an increase from 1,000+ prescriptions in February to 75,000+ in March is not an insignificant increase to me. Moreover when you consider we only had 168,000 total cases at that time, prescriptions jumping by 74,000 is pretty significant.
My point is not that you shouldn't trust your doctor, my point is that they're not the safety valve for establishing a precedent. Mind you, I don't agree that vaccines and treatments should share any categories and I don't think mandating vaccines should establish precedent for whether it's okay to mandate a treatment of any kind.
I.e. the lack on information in the CDC study that says where the drugs went in a bugaboo to me. Also the fact the cut out April despite COVID's numbers growing exponentially and the prescription numbers being reduced to an 8th of what they were in March.
Work just released our new COVID-19 policy, I'm happy to say I called it.
Basically they are not requiring you to get the vaccine, but if you don't you are going to have to keep wearing a mask. If you do get the vaccine you have to bring in the card to have a copy made and put in your file, and then you get a special employee badge showing that you are safe to go around without a mask
A-OK with this course. Scarlett letter anti-vaxxers.
Vaccines still are working fine, just a little less, against Delta in the UK. But big caveat: only if you've been fully vaccinated. The Oxford/AZ vaccine is getting dangerously close to the coin flip mark though. The difference in effectiveness between one dose vs two is pretty stark, and the difference between 1 dose and 2 is about double for Delta. If you've only had one dose you are not fully vaccinated and your protection is weak! Keep that in mind when considering precautions.
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Librarian's ghostLibrarian, Ghostbuster, and TimSporkRegistered Userregular
Once again, no mention of J&J. Yay! So glad they gave me this one.
Dr. Scott Gottlieb, former Food and Drug Administration commissioner said the Johnson & Johnson vaccine appears to be about 60% effective against the delta variant, while the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines are about 88% effective after the second dose.
“So we have the tools to control this and defeat it,” Gottleib told CBS’ Face the Nation. “We just need to use those tools.”
Once again, no mention of J&J. Yay! So glad they gave me this one.
Isn’t there a vaguely penis shaped graph of the effectiveness of the J&J vaccine? I’ve seen it here before, but if I remember correctly your vaccine effectiveness increases over time after you get the shot and peaks around 90+% a couple months after. No idea about how that holds up with the variants, probably about as well.
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TetraNitroCubaneThe DjinneratorAt the bottom of a bottleRegistered Userregular
edited June 2021
About 10 days ago, Israel lifted their mask mandate. They've had pretty good success with vaccination, and with keeping their case count down.
Israel has been one of the most successful countries in the world in tackling the pandemic.
It implemented the fastest vaccination programme, under which well over half the population of 9.3m has been partially or fully immunised.
But on Thursday, 10 days after the mandate was lifted, Israel's coronavirus response chief Nachman Ash said people would once again need to wear masks indoors to try to stem the rise in cases.
"We are seeing a doubling every few days," Mr Ash told public radio. "Another thing that's worrying is that the infections are spreading."
The requirement to wear masks had been the last remaining restriction after all other measures, imposed during lockdown earlier this year, had been gradually dropped.
TetraNitroCubane on
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TetraNitroCubaneThe DjinneratorAt the bottom of a bottleRegistered Userregular
“People cannot feel safe just because they had the two doses. They still need to protect themselves,” Dr. Mariangela Simao, WHO assistant director-general for access to medicines and health products, said during a news briefing from the agency’s Geneva headquarters.
“Vaccine alone won’t stop community transmission,” Simao added. “People need to continue to use masks consistently, be in ventilated spaces, hand hygiene ... the physical distance, avoid crowding. This still continues to be extremely important, even if you’re vaccinated when you have a community transmission ongoing.”
WHO officials said they are asking fully vaccinated people to continue to “play it safe” because a large portion of the world remains unvaccinated and highly contagious variants, like delta, are spreading in many countries, spurring outbreaks.
The Wall Street Journal reported Friday that about half of adults infected in an outbreak of the delta variant in Israel were fully vaccinated with the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine, prompting the government there to reimpose an indoor mask requirement and other measures.
Apparently a larger than expected number of cases out of Israel are in completely vaccinated people. I don't think that's severe disease, though - But still, infected and potentially spreading.
“People cannot feel safe just because they had the two doses. They still need to protect themselves,” Dr. Mariangela Simao, WHO assistant director-general for access to medicines and health products, said during a news briefing from the agency’s Geneva headquarters.
“Vaccine alone won’t stop community transmission,” Simao added. “People need to continue to use masks consistently, be in ventilated spaces, hand hygiene ... the physical distance, avoid crowding. This still continues to be extremely important, even if you’re vaccinated when you have a community transmission ongoing.”
WHO officials said they are asking fully vaccinated people to continue to “play it safe” because a large portion of the world remains unvaccinated and highly contagious variants, like delta, are spreading in many countries, spurring outbreaks.
The Wall Street Journal reported Friday that about half of adults infected in an outbreak of the delta variant in Israel were fully vaccinated with the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine, prompting the government there to reimpose an indoor mask requirement and other measures.
Apparently a larger than expected number of cases out of Israel are in completely vaccinated people. I don't think that's severe disease, though - But still, infected and potentially spreading.
And this is why I bought four new masks *after* my second shot.
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MayabirdPecking at the keyboardRegistered Userregular
Once again, no mention of J&J. Yay! So glad they gave me this one.
Isn’t there a vaguely penis shaped graph of the effectiveness of the J&J vaccine? I’ve seen it here before, but if I remember correctly your vaccine effectiveness increases over time after you get the shot and peaks around 90+% a couple months after. No idea about how that holds up with the variants, probably about as well.
Here ya go
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TetraNitroCubaneThe DjinneratorAt the bottom of a bottleRegistered Userregular
That graph just keeps on coming up.
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OrcaAlso known as EspressosaurusWrexRegistered Userregular
“People cannot feel safe just because they had the two doses. They still need to protect themselves,” Dr. Mariangela Simao, WHO assistant director-general for access to medicines and health products, said during a news briefing from the agency’s Geneva headquarters.
“Vaccine alone won’t stop community transmission,” Simao added. “People need to continue to use masks consistently, be in ventilated spaces, hand hygiene ... the physical distance, avoid crowding. This still continues to be extremely important, even if you’re vaccinated when you have a community transmission ongoing.”
WHO officials said they are asking fully vaccinated people to continue to “play it safe” because a large portion of the world remains unvaccinated and highly contagious variants, like delta, are spreading in many countries, spurring outbreaks.
The Wall Street Journal reported Friday that about half of adults infected in an outbreak of the delta variant in Israel were fully vaccinated with the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine, prompting the government there to reimpose an indoor mask requirement and other measures.
Apparently a larger than expected number of cases out of Israel are in completely vaccinated people. I don't think that's severe disease, though - But still, infected and potentially spreading.
Damn. Well I enjoyed having my mask off for literally two weeks.
“People cannot feel safe just because they had the two doses. They still need to protect themselves,” Dr. Mariangela Simao, WHO assistant director-general for access to medicines and health products, said during a news briefing from the agency’s Geneva headquarters.
“Vaccine alone won’t stop community transmission,” Simao added. “People need to continue to use masks consistently, be in ventilated spaces, hand hygiene ... the physical distance, avoid crowding. This still continues to be extremely important, even if you’re vaccinated when you have a community transmission ongoing.”
WHO officials said they are asking fully vaccinated people to continue to “play it safe” because a large portion of the world remains unvaccinated and highly contagious variants, like delta, are spreading in many countries, spurring outbreaks.
The Wall Street Journal reported Friday that about half of adults infected in an outbreak of the delta variant in Israel were fully vaccinated with the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine, prompting the government there to reimpose an indoor mask requirement and other measures.
Apparently a larger than expected number of cases out of Israel are in completely vaccinated people. I don't think that's severe disease, though - But still, infected and potentially spreading.
Damn. Well I enjoyed having my mask off for literally two weeks.
I mean, there's still not a lot of data there to go over. There's no need to panic yet. For one thing we know the majority of Isreal has been vaccinated, so if something like 7/10 are vaccinated but the split is only 50/50 were among those who tested positive, we know vaccines are still being quite effective. It also doesn't say how sick anyone got, or under what circumstances they contracted it. Furthermore, we're still talking a tiny sample size here (208 cases today total.) So it's just not a great data point to extrapolate anything from yet, other than what we already knew which is vaccines aren't bulletproof and you can still spread it.
There have been a lot of papers and studies attempting to repurpose old drugs for use against covid. Hydroxychloroquine is the big one here, but there are dozens of others that have come up. Despite reasonable efficacy in cells, none have translated into clinical use. This paper argues that essentially all of them operate in cell culture by inducing a fairly common but not well understood form of toxicity that also happens to disrupt viral replication.
They do this however, only by what you can think of us a bulk mechanical property and not a “real” biological effect and so only at much higher concentrations than you can achieve in animals or humans.
The authors estimate that several billion dollars have been spent on clinical trials with compounds operating by this mechanism, none of which had, in hindsight, any chance of success.
Sydney, Australia has just gone into a 2 week lockdown starting in 2 hours time due to the spread of the Delta variant in our very unvaccinated population (due to the incompetence and laziness of the current federal government).
This is a good move: because the other reality is that the hospital system has been near capacity this entire time, as just like, an ongoing story of mismanagement and lack of funding, so we really can't deal with a huge wave of cases.
Sydney, Australia has just gone into a 2 week lockdown starting in 2 hours time due to the spread of the Delta variant in our very unvaccinated population (due to the incompetence and laziness of the current federal government).
This is a good move: because the other reality is that the hospital system has been near capacity this entire time, as just like, an ongoing story of mismanagement and lack of funding, so we really can't deal with a huge wave of cases.
But we have all this capacity for COVID this time, which is why we're not shutting down elective surgery like last time.
Or something.
TetraNitroCubaneThe DjinneratorAt the bottom of a bottleRegistered Userregular
edited June 2021
One thing to keep in mind as the Delta variant gains more steam, is that even in very mild cases of SARS-CoV-2 infection, those infected may suffer brain damage.
Even mild cases of COVID-19 may lead to loss of brain tissue, according to findings from a long-term study involving 782 volunteers. As part of the ongoing UK Biobank study, participants underwent brain scans before the pandemic. For a before-and-after comparison, researchers invited 394 COVID-19 survivors to come back for follow-up scans as well as 388 healthy volunteers. Most of the COVID-19 survivors had had only mild-to-moderate symptoms, or no symptoms at all, while 15 had been hospitalized. Among the COVID-19 survivors, researchers saw "significant" loss of gray matter in regions of the brain related to smell and taste - the left parahippocampal gyrus, left orbitofrontal cortex and left insula. Some of the affected brain regions are also involved in the memory of experiences that evoke emotional reactions, the researchers noted in a report posted on medRxiv on Tuesday ahead of peer review. The changes were not seen in the group that had not been infected. The authors said more research is needed to determine whether COVID-19 survivors will have issues in the longer term with their ability to remember emotion-evoking events. They also do not yet know whether the loss of gray matter is a result of the virus spreading into the brain, or some other effect of the illness.
So even if the vaccines are stellar at keeping people out of the hospital, there is still a risk of lasting damage even from a less serious infection they might experience.
Jab #1 for my wife and I, the Kiddo will be a few weeks from now due to their work schedule. We all had it over Christmas/New Year break and were told since we had it already Jab #1 most likely will be worse that the second dose. We elected on Pfizer over Moderna and J&J, surprisingly between the Safeway and Walgreens in town and an independent pharmacy we were able to pretty much choose any flavor and just walk in to get them. (US, North Idaho)
One thing to keep in mind as the Delta variant gains more steam, is that even in very mild cases of SARS-CoV-2 infection, those infected may suffer brain damage.
Even mild cases of COVID-19 may lead to loss of brain tissue, according to findings from a long-term study involving 782 volunteers. As part of the ongoing UK Biobank study, participants underwent brain scans before the pandemic. For a before-and-after comparison, researchers invited 394 COVID-19 survivors to come back for follow-up scans as well as 388 healthy volunteers. Most of the COVID-19 survivors had had only mild-to-moderate symptoms, or no symptoms at all, while 15 had been hospitalized. Among the COVID-19 survivors, researchers saw "significant" loss of gray matter in regions of the brain related to smell and taste - the left parahippocampal gyrus, left orbitofrontal cortex and left insula. Some of the affected brain regions are also involved in the memory of experiences that evoke emotional reactions, the researchers noted in a report posted on medRxiv on Tuesday ahead of peer review. The changes were not seen in the group that had not been infected. The authors said more research is needed to determine whether COVID-19 survivors will have issues in the longer term with their ability to remember emotion-evoking events. They also do not yet know whether the loss of gray matter is a result of the virus spreading into the brain, or some other effect of the illness.
So even if the vaccines are stellar at keeping people out of the hospital, there is still a risk of lasting damage even from a less serious infection they might experience.
One thing to keep in mind as the Delta variant gains more steam, is that even in very mild cases of SARS-CoV-2 infection, those infected may suffer brain damage.
Even mild cases of COVID-19 may lead to loss of brain tissue, according to findings from a long-term study involving 782 volunteers. As part of the ongoing UK Biobank study, participants underwent brain scans before the pandemic. For a before-and-after comparison, researchers invited 394 COVID-19 survivors to come back for follow-up scans as well as 388 healthy volunteers. Most of the COVID-19 survivors had had only mild-to-moderate symptoms, or no symptoms at all, while 15 had been hospitalized. Among the COVID-19 survivors, researchers saw "significant" loss of gray matter in regions of the brain related to smell and taste - the left parahippocampal gyrus, left orbitofrontal cortex and left insula. Some of the affected brain regions are also involved in the memory of experiences that evoke emotional reactions, the researchers noted in a report posted on medRxiv on Tuesday ahead of peer review. The changes were not seen in the group that had not been infected. The authors said more research is needed to determine whether COVID-19 survivors will have issues in the longer term with their ability to remember emotion-evoking events. They also do not yet know whether the loss of gray matter is a result of the virus spreading into the brain, or some other effect of the illness.
So even if the vaccines are stellar at keeping people out of the hospital, there is still a risk of lasting damage even from a less serious infection they might experience.
well that's terrifying, thanks so much
Maybe if we catch it, we'll forget ever reading this post?
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Kane Red RobeMaster of MagicArcanusRegistered Userregular
One thing to keep in mind as the Delta variant gains more steam, is that even in very mild cases of SARS-CoV-2 infection, those infected may suffer brain damage.
Even mild cases of COVID-19 may lead to loss of brain tissue, according to findings from a long-term study involving 782 volunteers. As part of the ongoing UK Biobank study, participants underwent brain scans before the pandemic. For a before-and-after comparison, researchers invited 394 COVID-19 survivors to come back for follow-up scans as well as 388 healthy volunteers. Most of the COVID-19 survivors had had only mild-to-moderate symptoms, or no symptoms at all, while 15 had been hospitalized. Among the COVID-19 survivors, researchers saw "significant" loss of gray matter in regions of the brain related to smell and taste - the left parahippocampal gyrus, left orbitofrontal cortex and left insula. Some of the affected brain regions are also involved in the memory of experiences that evoke emotional reactions, the researchers noted in a report posted on medRxiv on Tuesday ahead of peer review. The changes were not seen in the group that had not been infected. The authors said more research is needed to determine whether COVID-19 survivors will have issues in the longer term with their ability to remember emotion-evoking events. They also do not yet know whether the loss of gray matter is a result of the virus spreading into the brain, or some other effect of the illness.
So even if the vaccines are stellar at keeping people out of the hospital, there is still a risk of lasting damage even from a less serious infection they might experience.
well that's terrifying, thanks so much
My sense of smell is definitely weaker still than it was pre-covid. No idea if I've forgotten anything, but that's the insidious part isn't it?
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The hydroxychloroquine argument is so bad.
You're comparing a treatment to a preventative measure, and you need a doctor to prescribe that drug.
Mike Lindell can't force anyone to take any drug that a doctor will not prescribe.
Agreed... where experimental vaccines are in the job description you can still decline post-incident antibiotic treatment and so on. The only thing that comes to mind about mandating treatments is in the military.
And you'll notice how it never materialized into anything.
Because, like I said earlier, the medical professionals who would be prescribing this have intelligence and agency and largely fucking knew better.
Nope! It was hoarded early on and it did create disruptions.
I... know.
But it wasn't prescribed en masse by doctors.
I know drug companies are shit, we all do, and we knew the disruption would happen. But the idea that because it was FDA approved that we would have people forced to take the drug by their bosses is absolutely absurd.
The post you were responding to was about companies hoarding and you said "nope" to that....?
I said "and you'll notice how it never materialized into anything."
Because I was specifically debating the idea that it was possible for bosses to force their employees to take the drug to come back to work which
A - Did not happen (never materialized into anything, because of doctors)
B - Would never happen (the rest of the discussion)
Oh I'm sorry that I wasn't clear with my post. I wasn't intending to make any assertion that mass use of hydroxychloroquine happened and I wasn't even really thinking about the forced vaccination argument when I asked the question. It was really just something that I was curious about, because it was a big deal at the time but it quickly faded from the conversation about Trump's mishandling of the pandemic. I remember hearing anecdotes at the time about relatives being unable to get the drug and suffering because of it, and I wanted to know just how bad the impact of it really was. The lack of people talking about it now makes me think that it ended up being a relatively minor inconvenience, but it could also be that it was a major problem for a small number of people and therefore easily forgotten.
From many things. The germ theory doesn't give a shit about someone's stupid personal beliefs. We need to be WAY more strict about vaccinations in all walks of life. The anti-vaxxers made this a thing and it needs to be crushed.
Yes, I am aware that you have a lot more faith in the integrity of on-site OSHA Violation Prevention Doctors than I do.
I'm sorry but medical professionals are not universally intelligent, and if my in-laws and friends in the medical industry are of any personal evidence to me, very fucking bad on separating science and myth.
We often think of doctors as serious human biologists who operate on data-driven information but they regularly don't and it's a very regular indictment of the entire industry.
While I would like to believe that doctors and nurses would be a safety valve for preventing employer's actions driven by bad advice, the truth is they're as vulnerable and susceptible as the average joe.
We are still putting stents into folks with heart disease but in stable condition despite the data telling us not to do it anymore. Doctors are not as good at this science thing as everyone thinks.
I agree, btw, with the idea of firing people for not accepting a vaccine during a pandemic. I'm not so worried about the ramifications of doing so. But I think Morgan and moniker's argument bears some merit, the FDA should absolutely be the authority on the matter of whether something is safe to mandate or not, and medical professionals, I'm sorry, are not to be blanket assumed to have my best interests at heart. They're running businesses.
Also, doctors increased their hydroxychloroquine prescriptions 80-fold during the pandemic, and much of that came from doctors who didn't normally prescribe the medication. CDC link- https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6935a4.htm
I'm also aware of quacks. We have several in the media, several with practicing medical degrees. I'm also aware not all doctors are great and not all nurses are great. There's a reason for certifications, after all.
Also, humans be humans.
But, generally speaking, that's who you're gonna go to if you get sick. And the report shows an 80 fold increase that wouldn't even cover 2 days worth of cases in June 2020, which means the doctors shooting out those HCQ scripts were in the vast minority. Remember, we had well over 2 million COVID cases by the end the June. The use of HCQ isn't even within the margin of error on treatment options
If you frame it as a percentage of covid cases in June, sure, but an increase from 1,000+ prescriptions in February to 75,000+ in March is not an insignificant increase to me. Moreover when you consider we only had 168,000 total cases at that time, prescriptions jumping by 74,000 is pretty significant.
My point is not that you shouldn't trust your doctor, my point is that they're not the safety valve for establishing a precedent. Mind you, I don't agree that vaccines and treatments should share any categories and I don't think mandating vaccines should establish precedent for whether it's okay to mandate a treatment of any kind.
One of the largest non-traditional prescribers of it were eye doctors.
I.e. the lack on information in the CDC study that says where the drugs went in a bugaboo to me. Also the fact the cut out April despite COVID's numbers growing exponentially and the prescription numbers being reduced to an 8th of what they were in March.
Basically they are not requiring you to get the vaccine, but if you don't you are going to have to keep wearing a mask. If you do get the vaccine you have to bring in the card to have a copy made and put in your file, and then you get a special employee badge showing that you are safe to go around without a mask
A-OK with this course. Scarlett letter anti-vaxxers.
Pre-print, so take it with a grain of salt but:
Vaccines still are working fine, just a little less, against Delta in the UK. But big caveat: only if you've been fully vaccinated. The Oxford/AZ vaccine is getting dangerously close to the coin flip mark though. The difference in effectiveness between one dose vs two is pretty stark, and the difference between 1 dose and 2 is about double for Delta. If you've only had one dose you are not fully vaccinated and your protection is weak! Keep that in mind when considering precautions.
The UK only approved that one like a month ago apparently.
https://coronavirus.nautil.us/johnson-and-johnson-vaccine-against-delta-variant/
So about the same as the AZ/Oxford vaccine
Isn’t there a vaguely penis shaped graph of the effectiveness of the J&J vaccine? I’ve seen it here before, but if I remember correctly your vaccine effectiveness increases over time after you get the shot and peaks around 90+% a couple months after. No idea about how that holds up with the variants, probably about as well.
They've just re-instated their mask mandate due to rising case numbers
Apparently a larger than expected number of cases out of Israel are in completely vaccinated people. I don't think that's severe disease, though - But still, infected and potentially spreading.
And this is why I bought four new masks *after* my second shot.
Here ya go
Damn. Well I enjoyed having my mask off for literally two weeks.
I mean, there's still not a lot of data there to go over. There's no need to panic yet. For one thing we know the majority of Isreal has been vaccinated, so if something like 7/10 are vaccinated but the split is only 50/50 were among those who tested positive, we know vaccines are still being quite effective. It also doesn't say how sick anyone got, or under what circumstances they contracted it. Furthermore, we're still talking a tiny sample size here (208 cases today total.) So it's just not a great data point to extrapolate anything from yet, other than what we already knew which is vaccines aren't bulletproof and you can still spread it.
Hopefully it lasts more than four quarters.
Of course I still haven’t eaten indoors in a restaurant.
This is a super interesting paper.
There have been a lot of papers and studies attempting to repurpose old drugs for use against covid. Hydroxychloroquine is the big one here, but there are dozens of others that have come up. Despite reasonable efficacy in cells, none have translated into clinical use. This paper argues that essentially all of them operate in cell culture by inducing a fairly common but not well understood form of toxicity that also happens to disrupt viral replication.
They do this however, only by what you can think of us a bulk mechanical property and not a “real” biological effect and so only at much higher concentrations than you can achieve in animals or humans.
The authors estimate that several billion dollars have been spent on clinical trials with compounds operating by this mechanism, none of which had, in hindsight, any chance of success.
This is a good move: because the other reality is that the hospital system has been near capacity this entire time, as just like, an ongoing story of mismanagement and lack of funding, so we really can't deal with a huge wave of cases.
I've eaten inside a couple of times, but only with nearly empty places with distance and other vaccinated folks. Mask on whenever randos are around.
But we have all this capacity for COVID this time, which is why we're not shutting down elective surgery like last time.
Or something.
So even if the vaccines are stellar at keeping people out of the hospital, there is still a risk of lasting damage even from a less serious infection they might experience.
well that's terrifying, thanks so much
Maybe if we catch it, we'll forget ever reading this post?
My sense of smell is definitely weaker still than it was pre-covid. No idea if I've forgotten anything, but that's the insidious part isn't it?