So in the MCU, TAO already knows Strange's destiny before he shows up, and she already knows he's supposed to be the best of all of them before they meet. Presumably she would know that Christine's death is a motivating factor. But somehow she doesn't know that he's going to turn to the dark side later?
Remember, in the main universe, Strange learns the mystic arts specifically to repair his hands. But in this universe, his hands are fine, and he's only there to bring back Christine. That's literally his entire motivation. He has no other reason to be there. As soon as the other mystics tell him that's not possible, he has no reason to keep going, unless it's because he intends to betray them.
They are very vague on his motivations there. I went back and checked and all they said is he sought answers, but then basically they jump right to him finding the Eye of Agomotto (sp). I took it more as in he was searching for meaning than anything else, but hey, take your pick.
Endgame reveals that TAO was aware of Strange long before he showed up, and that she foresaw what he would become after her death.
In the movie, Strange confronts a guy who demonstrated miraculous healing and asked him how he could do the same, then went to the Ancient One. When the Ancient One started her pitch, he dismissed it as nonsense at first until she demonstrated magic on him.
In this universe, Strange has absolutely no reason to believe that someone is capable of bringing people back from the dead or capable of altering the timeline, and he wouldn't have a lead to point him to TAO in the first place. And once he shows up and he asks him his reasons for being there... what's he going to say? Strange has two options:
1. Be upfront about his goals, at which point, TAO tells him it's impossible.
2. Lie about his goals, at which point, TAO would know that he's hiding something and would be extremely reluctant to train him.
This is less a "What if?" and more an entirely different world with different people and different behavior.
So in the MCU, TAO already knows Strange's destiny before he shows up, and she already knows he's supposed to be the best of all of them before they meet. Presumably she would know that Christine's death is a motivating factor. But somehow she doesn't know that he's going to turn to the dark side later?
Remember, in the main universe, Strange learns the mystic arts specifically to repair his hands. But in this universe, his hands are fine, and he's only there to bring back Christine. That's literally his entire motivation. He has no other reason to be there. As soon as the other mystics tell him that's not possible, he has no reason to keep going, unless it's because he intends to betray them.
She specifically couldn't see past her own death.
She said she couldn’t see past her own death.
She is also a liar.
I don't see why she would lie about that particular bit though. She used her dark dimension powers to peak at the future but nothing implies she's all knowing or omnipotent. It's probably easier to see other folks future over your own. She knows strange becomes Sorcerer Supreme, which naturally means she isn't around anymore to be that for the earth.
The Ancient One said that right before she knew she was gonna die, I’m not saying she couldn’t be lying about not seeing past her own death, but I don’t see why she would lie in that moment.
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The Ancient One said that right before she knew she was gonna die, I’m not saying she couldn’t be lying about not seeing past her own death, but I don’t see why she would lie in that moment.
1. She said she didn't know his future, but she knew the possibilities. And the idea that someone's who entire motivation is to try to bring someone back from the dead might actually try to do that seems like a pretty glaring possibility.
2. We know she was lying because of Endgame.
3. As for her motivation for lying, that's easy:
tzeentchlingDoctor of RocksOaklandRegistered Userregular
edited September 2021
Interesting thought - Dark!Strange didn't really "prevent" her death, so much as restore her to life after she died. Sure, he did his rewind thing on the car, but that was clearly giving her life rather than simply reversing the events. So even if it had completely worked out, he's gone beyond simple paradox.
Essentially, this is running up against the limitations of what the Time Stone itself can accomplish, even with supplementary magic. Really, Strange should have simply gone after the Reality and Soul stones and combined them to bring her back to life in his own timeline, rather than going back and trying to stop it. The movie already established that you can pop back in time, borrow them, use them, and then return them a split-second after you took them.
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tzeentchlingDoctor of RocksOaklandRegistered Userregular
I'm also a bit surprised they didn't have Light!Strange tell Dark!Strange "look at you! even if you brought her back she couldn't love what you've become" or some variant on the trope.
What Strange really should have done is helped fake her death, send her to the future moments before he left and then tell that version of himself to "go back in time, fake Christine's death and send her to the future" to repeat the loop. Easy peasy.
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
What Strange really should have done is helped fake her death, send her to the future moments before he left and then tell that version of himself to "go back in time, fake Christine's death and send her to the future" to repeat the loop. Easy peasy.
The Ancient One said that right before she knew she was gonna die, I’m not saying she couldn’t be lying about not seeing past her own death, but I don’t see why she would lie in that moment.
1. She said she didn't know his future, but she knew the possibilities. And the idea that someone's who entire motivation is to try to bring someone back from the dead might actually try to do that seems like a pretty glaring possibility.
2. We know she was lying because of Endgame.
3. As for her motivation for lying, that's easy:
What does Endgame have to do with it? If anything, it proves she couldn’t see that far into the future, else why need Hulk to convince her that Strange gave up the time stone if she already knew it would happen?
Strange willingly giving up the stone was a message from Strange to her, telling the Ancient One that he has a plan to stop Thanos. If she could see that, then the message wouldn’t be necessary.
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
edited September 2021
This story starts in what is already an alternate reality from the one that leads to Endgame. In this one, Strange has at least sufficiently gotten over his ego enough for Christine to be happy with him, which is why she's riding with him instead of refusing to go. So the big change in this setting has actually already happened before the story, the result is that Christine has to die to make Strange into the Sorcerer Supreme instead of his hands being injured. It's kind of cheating a little and is more of "What if this happened after this also happened?"
Further, The Ancient One is aware of possibilities that lead to Stephen becoming a Sorcerer, but it isn't fate. She only knows that Christine's death is the turning point after it happens and after Stephen has tried to change it many times; this forces her to tap into some dark side power to be able to go back without the Time Stone and try and convince Stephen to give up what he's attempting. Christine's death has already happened, so it must always happen. The Ancient One hopes she can preserve Strange by splitting him into what he should be versus what he's trying to be, in the hopes that the bad one will fail and the good one will continue on; sadly for that Earth, the bad Strange gobbles him up for power.
"Our" Stephen goes down a different path, one where he discovers magic and achieves the wisdom to realize that his ability to help was not limited to the use of his hands. This is the Stephen that even chooses to keep his hands as-is because he doesn't need to return to being a surgeon, but they serve as a strong reminder of the price of what he has gained.
What Strange really should have done is helped fake her death, send her to the future moments before he left and then tell that version of himself to "go back in time, fake Christine's death and send her to the future" to repeat the loop. Easy peasy.
I don't think she time traveled, I think that was the era-appropriate version popping up. (Strange WAS in the past) I thought she had the eye as well, but I could be wrong.
The Ancient One said that right before she knew she was gonna die, I’m not saying she couldn’t be lying about not seeing past her own death, but I don’t see why she would lie in that moment.
1. She said she didn't know his future, but she knew the possibilities. And the idea that someone's who entire motivation is to try to bring someone back from the dead might actually try to do that seems like a pretty glaring possibility.
2. We know she was lying because of Endgame.
3. As for her motivation for lying, that's easy:
What does Endgame have to do with it? If anything, it proves she couldn’t see that far into the future, else why need Hulk to convince her that Strange gave up the time stone if she already knew it would happen?
Because that Hulk was from a different timeline with a different future. Pym particles.
If TAO can only see from the point of her death, there would be no way for her to know for sure that Strange was going to be the best of them. Strange could have given up, gotten killed, turned to the dark side, etc. We know Doctor Strange's ability to see the future not only goes beyond his "death" when the snap happens, but they go beyond the existence of the time stone itself, because Thanos destroys the gems from the main universe at the start of Endgame.
Strange willingly giving up the stone was a message from Strange to her, telling the Ancient One that he has a plan to stop Thanos. If she could see that, then the message wouldn’t be necessary.
Or maybe Doctor Strange just got corrupted with power and went evil. If she could only see up to the point of her own death, then she would have no way of knowing for sure.
The Ancient One said that right before she knew she was gonna die, I’m not saying she couldn’t be lying about not seeing past her own death, but I don’t see why she would lie in that moment.
1. She said she didn't know his future, but she knew the possibilities. And the idea that someone's who entire motivation is to try to bring someone back from the dead might actually try to do that seems like a pretty glaring possibility.
2. We know she was lying because of Endgame.
3. As for her motivation for lying, that's easy:
What does Endgame have to do with it? If anything, it proves she couldn’t see that far into the future, else why need Hulk to convince her that Strange gave up the time stone if she already knew it would happen?
Because that Hulk was from a different timeline with a different future. Pym particles.
If TAO can only see from the point of her death, there would be no way for her to know for sure that Strange was going to be the best of them. Strange could have given up, gotten killed, turned to the dark side, etc. We know Doctor Strange's ability to see the future not only goes beyond his "death" when the snap happens, but they go beyond the existence of the time stone itself, because Thanos destroys the gems from the main universe at the start of Endgame.
Strange willingly giving up the stone was a message from Strange to her, telling the Ancient One that he has a plan to stop Thanos. If she could see that, then the message wouldn’t be necessary.
Or maybe Doctor Strange just got corrupted with power and went evil. If she could only see up to the point of her own death, then she would have no way of knowing for sure.
It's clear that her knowledge of the future is limited, otherwise the Hulk telling her about what Strange did wouldn't have been new information.
Strange can see infinite possible futures, doesn't mean he knows which one he's headed towards. I'm assuming the same goes for Ancient One. We also don't know for sure the 2012 timeline is a seperate one. It likely becomes one after they take the stone and peace out, but before hand it could easily be our past as well
Actually we know that it's Loki stealing the tesseract that causes the timeline to branch
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
What Strange really should have done is helped fake her death, send her to the future moments before he left and then tell that version of himself to "go back in time, fake Christine's death and send her to the future" to repeat the loop. Easy peasy.
He Who Remains: I'm dead!
FTFY
Also He Who Remains: But now there's infinite me!
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MonwynApathy's a tragedy, and boredom is a crime.A little bit of everything, all of the time.Registered Userregular
I just figured it followed the Time Machine movie logic. i.e. you can't fix an event that became the impetus for you traveling back in time in the first place
My read was that because, in this universe, Strange's impetus to learn magic was Christine's death, undoing that would lead to a situation where the universe got eaten by the Dark Dimension. At which point it wouldn't exist in the first place because wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey.
It's clear that her knowledge of the future is limited, otherwise the Hulk telling her about what Strange did wouldn't have been new information.
This was already addressed. She doesn't know absolutely for sure what's going to happen, but she can keep track of the possibilities. Presumably, likelier possibilities would be easier to track.
So how would she miss the possibility of Doctor Strange attempting to bring back Christine, when that was his entire reason for being there in the first place? You don't even need to have the time stone to suspect that. I'm sure most of the people on the forum were able to guess where the story was headed within the first 5 minutes, no time stone required. "Oh, you're giving magic powers to someone who's entirely motivated to bring back a loved one? I'm guessing he's probably going to try to bring her back."
And it's not like Doctor Strange went evil as a result of some incredibly unlikely 1 in a billion fluke that TAO simply overlooked. His entire storyline was building up to this. Everything that Doctor Strange does is the result of motivations she already knew about before she died.
And it's not like she hasn't had apprentices go evil in the past. That was the plot to the first movie. Presumably, she still trained that guy knowing he would turn evil because it was necessary to motivate Doctor Strange into being her next successor. But that only works if she has a guarantee that Doctor Strange wouldn't go evil as well, which she seems to have had in the main MCU, but she obviously didn't have in this "What If".
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
I just figured it followed the Time Machine movie logic. i.e. you can't fix an event that became the impetus for you traveling back in time in the first place
My read was that because, in this universe, Strange's impetus to learn magic was Christine's death, undoing that would lead to a situation where the universe got eaten by the Dark Dimension. At which point it wouldn't exist in the first place because wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey.
Yeah that’s literally Time Machine movie logic, like I said
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
The Ancient One said that right before she knew she was gonna die, I’m not saying she couldn’t be lying about not seeing past her own death, but I don’t see why she would lie in that moment.
1. She said she didn't know his future, but she knew the possibilities. And the idea that someone's who entire motivation is to try to bring someone back from the dead might actually try to do that seems like a pretty glaring possibility.
2. We know she was lying because of Endgame.
3. As for her motivation for lying, that's easy:
What does Endgame have to do with it? If anything, it proves she couldn’t see that far into the future, else why need Hulk to convince her that Strange gave up the time stone if she already knew it would happen?
Because that Hulk was from a different timeline with a different future. Pym particles.
If TAO can only see from the point of her death, there would be no way for her to know for sure that Strange was going to be the best of them. Strange could have given up, gotten killed, turned to the dark side, etc. We know Doctor Strange's ability to see the future not only goes beyond his "death" when the snap happens, but they go beyond the existence of the time stone itself, because Thanos destroys the gems from the main universe at the start of Endgame.
Strange willingly giving up the stone was a message from Strange to her, telling the Ancient One that he has a plan to stop Thanos. If she could see that, then the message wouldn’t be necessary.
Or maybe Doctor Strange just got corrupted with power and went evil. If she could only see up to the point of her own death, then she would have no way of knowing for sure.
No he wasn't. He was from the same universe, same timeline, same future; Endgame and Loki have cemented this as well; the question to me is whether or not the Ancient One believed what she did about the nature of branching timelines and their relation to the infinity stones based on some more broad knowledge, or if she was also limited in scope due to being (unknowingly, I imagine) perpetually locked in a fixed timeline by the TVA and Kang.
There's been theories that she was in cahoots with Kang (The One Who Remains, I'm just saying Kang, I know some people don't like that), but I'm not sure. There's good reasons she might be, given her role of protecting Earth from extra-dimensional threats, and how having a sacred timeline would minimize those; but she's also keen on free will and things happening the "right" way because of individual choices leading to them. She fiddled with the dark dimension in order to try to see past her death, because she was consumed with protecting the Earth, but seemed to realize that bargain probably risked damning Earth more than any foresight she gained helping.
Honestly, I don't feel like there's been anything to indicate that The Ancient One was ever evil, or trying to undermine anything, or malevolent in any way. She made mistakes and owned them, and even the times she was seemingly dishonest, with Stephen or whomever, it was less to undermine anyone or anything, and more because she thought it would protect them, or the future. I feel like every time she's shown up there is no illusion that she is omnipotent or pure; she's made mistakes and seemingly know that Strange will do the same, but he's the one who will have the power and drive to protect our reality after she's gone, so she did what she could to guide that to happening.
And her actions in Endgame, specifically, showed that she absolutely can't see past her future in any massive way, she seemed to have no real knowledge of what would happen with Thanos and subsequent events, aside from being more aware about the infinity stones than anyone else on earth, prior, or after, until Infinity War. So, in What If? it isn't hard to believe that she doesn't know further than that there is a danger to what Stephen might become given the nature of that universe versions of his fixed point in time, or that all she could see from her delving into the dark powers to peek past her death only showed her enough to know that she had to act to provide a balance to what Stephen might become.
Or, hell, maybe something about how the infinity stones were used by Thanos put a cap on what she could see in the MCU, that wasn't as obscured in the What If? universe because Stephen got his power from extra-dimensional beings and not the infinity stones themselves.
There's any number of possibilities, and a whole host of reasons why that version of The Ancient One could have known more, about different things, than the MCU Ancient One. It doesn't imply any duplicity; I think the story of the episode was pretty straight forward, and I doubt that there was any intent on implying that there was something shady about the Ancient One here.
Personally, I think the only thing that will really matter from this episode is that, in the end, Strange is still alive. Yes, the universe ended, but he didn't, and I'm concerned that, since The Watcher had already turned his back and moved on, he might have missed that fact.
The voice acting, and specifically the translating a specific character into voice acting, from full camera acting, can't be a simple template or adjustment. Seeing the variation in how well they sync, both between voice and animation, and in how the character looks and feels compared to our memory.
It's really, really cool seeing the varying results. I bet someone out there could study this show after the season and write a course on how to translate stage to voice acting.
I'd almost just have them actually in person act the scene out, with everyone in the same studio, and then animate over that. But I understand this show was likely made over Covid so recording remotely was key.
No he wasn't. He was from the same universe, same timeline, same future; Endgame and Loki have cemented this as well;
TAO: If I give up the Time Stone to help your reality, I'm dooming my own.
She clearly makes a distinction.
And her actions in Endgame, specifically, showed that she absolutely can't see past her future in any massive way, she seemed to have no real knowledge of what would happen with Thanos and subsequent events, aside from being more aware about the infinity stones than anyone else on earth, prior, or after, until Infinity War.
In her reality, Loki runs off with the tessarect, which means that Thanos would have never been able to assemble the gauntlet in the first place, which means that Doctor Strange never has a reason to hand the time gem over to him in this reality.
Moreover, just because she has general access to future knowledge doesn't mean she has total omniscience of events that happened in the future. For instance, I can't tell you what the lottery numbers will be tomorrow, but I can say with reasonable certainty that I don't think you're going to win. TAO might not know every action that Doctor Strange will make in an infinite number of timelines, but she should at least be able to guess whether or not he turns evil. Especially since, once again, his reasons for turning evil wasn't caused by anything new.
There's any number of possibilities, and a whole host of reasons why that version of The Ancient One could have known more, about different things, than the MCU Ancient One. It doesn't imply any duplicity; I think the story of the episode was pretty straight forward, and I doubt that there was any intent on implying that there was something shady about the Ancient One here.
I never said she was being shady. My point is that the writing was lazy. They basically just said, "Hey, let's do Guy Pearce version of Time Machine, but in the MCU" and didn't put much thought into it. The entire point of "Time Machine" is that the question of "What if?" is futile in regards to his wife's death because the death is a fixed point in time. This episode tries to do the same thing, which contradicts the premise of the show.
Why does Christine die of a heart attack in this reality when she didn't die of one in the main reality? That's the point where "What if" doesn't matter. And where the logic contradicts itself within the episode logic itself. Because death by heart attacks a higher power at work rather than simply random chance, and any higher power should have seen this outcome. It's basically a catch-22:
1. Christine has to die in order to motivate Doctor Strange to become Sorcerer Supreme, so that he can save the Universe.
2. Except that by using that as his motivation, the universe is basically doomed.
Even if Doctor Strange hadn't chosen to try to bring her back on that particular night, there's nothing stopping him from making a different attempt down the road.
I would assume The Ancient One's statement to be more of a general thing. "If I give up our time stone, that screws up our reality and robs us of a vital tool to fight evil with. I'm not giving your green ass shit." Not that she specifically knows and sees all past her death. Otherwise she'd already know about Strange's gambit, which... she obviously didn't. Just working off the general correlation of "No sane person would willingly give the stone up, Strange is the super sanest of us all, so if he actually did it, he must have one hell of a plan".
In general, she can't see anything past her death, and since despite the change in why he sought fabulous secret powers, his life turns out almost beat for beat exactly the same. So there's no reason to doubt anything is wrong. ...Until one day when future Strange pops into the past. And at this point, we're deep into wibbly wobbly timey wimey stuff anyways.
"The sausage of Green Earth explodes with flavor like the cannon of culinary delight."
She probably (rightfully) assumes they won't succeed and thus won't survive to actually return the stones, causing a split timeline (which happens anyways with Loki, so technically she was right... That timeline was pruned)
No he wasn't. He was from the same universe, same timeline, same future; Endgame and Loki have cemented this as well;
TAO: If I give up the Time Stone to help your reality, I'm dooming my own.
She clearly makes a distinction.[/qoute]
She doesn't as clearly as you seem to think, for a few reasons.
She could be wrong. Does she actually know or is she stating that would be what she expects to happen? Is her reality a reality, or just a branch of the timeline? As of loki, we have a single timeline running supposedly, but do we know for sure that there aren't indefinite realities? It's almost like we're trying to force a consistent logic system on a more or less made up system by a writer who has no more or less idea than anyone. Loki seems to indicate she's wrong on a lot of levels, or at least inaccurate.
And her actions in Endgame, specifically, showed that she absolutely can't see past her future in any massive way, she seemed to have no real knowledge of what would happen with Thanos and subsequent events, aside from being more aware about the infinity stones than anyone else on earth, prior, or after, until Infinity War.
In her reality, Loki runs off with the tessarect, which means that Thanos would have never been able to assemble the gauntlet in the first place, which means that Doctor Strange never has a reason to hand the time gem over to him in this reality.
Moreover, just because she has general access to future knowledge doesn't mean she has total omniscience of events that happened in the future. For instance, I can't tell you what the lottery numbers will be tomorrow, but I can say with reasonable certainty that I don't think you're going to win. TAO might not know every action that Doctor Strange will make in an infinite number of timelines, but she should at least be able to guess whether or not he turns evil. Especially since, once again, his reasons for turning evil wasn't caused by anything new.
First and foremost, her very actions in this what if say you are wrong. He goes evil, but then she splits him, and let's part of him RELIVE the same moment, with no other prompting, on the hope he'll make the other choice? This also goes to the heart of Loki, if she knows the future well enough to know how Strange will turn out, rather than how he is inclined to be, then the timeline is fixed and there is no free will. It doesn't really matter what you do.
There's any number of possibilities, and a whole host of reasons why that version of The Ancient One could have known more, about different things, than the MCU Ancient One. It doesn't imply any duplicity; I think the story of the episode was pretty straight forward, and I doubt that there was any intent on implying that there was something shady about the Ancient One here.
I never said she was being shady. My point is that the writing was lazy. They basically just said, "Hey, let's do Guy Pearce version of Time Machine, but in the MCU" and didn't put much thought into it. The entire point of "Time Machine" is that the question of "What if?" is futile in regards to his wife's death because the death is a fixed point in time. This episode tries to do the same thing, which contradicts the premise of the show.
Why does Christine die of a heart attack in this reality when she didn't die of one in the main reality? That's the point where "What if" doesn't matter. And where the logic contradicts itself within the episode logic itself. Because death by heart attacks a higher power at work rather than simply random chance, and any higher power should have seen this outcome. It's basically a catch-22:
1. Christine has to die in order to motivate Doctor Strange to become Sorcerer Supreme, so that he can save the Universe.
2. Except that by using that as his motivation, the universe is basically doomed.
Even if Doctor Strange hadn't chosen to try to bring her back on that particular night, there's nothing stopping him from making a different attempt down the road.
This entirely misses the point, and the point is made QUITE CLEARLY by Obeng midway through. The fixed point in time is just a setting piece, what it specifically is doesn't matter, and you are overfixating on it. What matters is Strange's choice, and in this very episode we see him make 2 choices from the VERY same set of circumstances. One, he chooses to try and go back in time, and spends a huge amount of time trying to find the power, damn the consequences, and in his hubris leads to the end of the world, but at the same time, when given that choice, he also chooses to defend the world and give up Christine. Granted, in this reality he fails and loses to Evil!Strange, who then has to live with the fact that not only did he destroy the world, but he destroyed the very thing he meant to protect and save. Worrying about how they represent Christine Mills as a fixed point in time is like worrying about why there are so many damned radioactive spiders to make spider people, or how the yellow sun could give a being Superman level powers and contrarily why just putting the right color lampshade on a room light robs him of his power. It's only there to set up the actual story.
EDIT: The hell did I do to the quote trees..... sheesh.
I really liked the Watcher interaction because I felt it really put a rubber stamp on how completely and utterly fucked Strange was.
If you're so fucked that you can now SEE Uatu and are talking to him? Your universe just ended bud. It's over.
Where are you going?
... there's nothing left to see here.
And I'm definitely on board with Uatu interfering before this season is done.
And I do mean this particular season, because I'm not sure if I missed it on an earlier page, but it has already been picked up for a second season of 9 episodes, likely to air in 2022.
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
I really liked the Watcher interaction because I felt it really put a rubber stamp on how completely and utterly fucked Strange was.
If you're so fucked that you can now SEE Uatu and are talking to him? Your universe just ended bud. It's over.
Where are you going?
... there's nothing left to see here.
And I'm definitely on board with Uatu interfering before this season is done.
And I do mean this particular season, because I'm not sure if I missed it on an earlier page, but it has already been picked up for a second season of 9 episodes, likely to air in 2022.
Running What If throughout the MCU is honestly one of the best things they could do. It would need fairly minimal effort from the actual character actors, can make do without them if necessary, and frankly is a fantastic avenue for mountains of great new artwork and concepts.
I would assume The Ancient One's statement to be more of a general thing. "If I give up our time stone, that screws up our reality and robs us of a vital tool to fight evil with. I'm not giving your green ass shit." Not that she specifically knows and sees all past her death. Otherwise she'd already know about Strange's gambit, which... she obviously didn't.
Strange looks into 14 million possible futures from his perspective -- but that doesn't mean he can give you a full and thorough breakdown of everything that happened in all 14 million. He probably didn't delve any deeper than "Oh, we lose, next!"
Just working off the general correlation of "No sane person would willingly give the stone up, Strange is the super sanest of us all, so if he actually did it, he must have one hell of a plan".
How would she know that for sure if she can't see past her death? You're contradicting yourself.
In general, she can't see anything past her death, and since despite the change in why he sought fabulous secret powers, his life turns out almost beat for beat exactly the same.
Again, you're contradicting yourself. Exactly the same as what? Exactly the same as an alternate future where Strange is a good guy that happens after her death that you say she can't see?
So there's no reason to doubt anything is wrong. ...Until one day when future Strange pops into the past. And at this point, we're deep into wibbly wobbly timey wimey stuff anyways.
"Strange was doing great right up until everyone died!"
Meanwhile, his entire motivation for everyone dying happened because of the 2 year anniversary of Christine's death, which made him sad. TAO couldn't foresee that Strange would still be sad over Christine's death? She couldn't foresee that there would be future anniversary's of that day that would make him reflect on that? Again, you don't exactly need the time stone to realize that as an inevitability.
The Ancient One cannot look past her own death with the Time Stone. So if the Ancient One is using the Dark Dimension to gain some broad insights into the future beyond her death it is likely she is looking into the multiverse.
On a multiversal scale a Strange variant that destroys his universe is a cosmic rarity. So she generally sees either Sorcerer Supreme Strange and an intact universe or universe gone looks like Dormammu ate it.
Maybe if she had another 1,000 years she might have caught a glimpse of the universe Strange himself doomed and not Dormammu.
The problem is, if TAO can't see past her own death with the stone, any particular reason strange can? If he can't, then there might be more than those 14,000,605 futures he saw and he just discarded all the ones he didn't like. I suppose you could make the argument her death is a Fixed Point In Time.
The problem is, if TAO can't see past her own death with the stone, any particular reason strange can? If he can't, then there might be more than those 14,000,605 futures he saw and he just discarded all the ones he didn't like. I suppose you could make the argument her death is a Fixed Point In Time.
Strange didn't die, but also he could see after he returned 5 years in the future, so he'd know which outcomes worked.
We already know it's a different reality because different events happen in it, even without the missing stones. Like the fact that Captain America ends up fighting himself. Banner didn't come up with the plan of returning the infinity stones until after he met TAO. Which implies they weren't planning to return the stones before that. Which would have caused a paradox if they were from the same reality.
First and foremost, her very actions in this what if say you are wrong. He goes evil, but then she splits him, and let's part of him RELIVE the same moment, with no other prompting, on the hope he'll make the other choice? This also goes to the heart of Loki, if she knows the future well enough to know how Strange will turn out, rather than how he is inclined to be, then the timeline is fixed and there is no free will. It doesn't really matter what you do.
The entire arc of Doctor Strange is that Strange is driven by his fear of failure and refusal to lose, which is both his greatest strength and his greatest weakness. His arc completes when he realizes he can't beat the villain by winning, he can only win by losing over and over again for all eternity.
Dr. Stephen Strange: No… No! No, no, no, no no no no! No! Open the door! Please!
The Ancient One: Thank you, Masters. You think I’m wrong to cast him out?
Mordo: 5 hours later, he’s still on your doorstep. There’s a strength to him.
The Ancient One: Stubbornness, arrogance, ambition…I’ve seen it all before.
Mordo: He reminds you of Kaecilius?
The Ancient One: I can not lead another gifted student to power, only to lose him to the darkness.
It really doesn't make any sense for her to simply assume that Strange will give up and stop trying when his refusal to give up is his main defining trait, and when she's seen how this can corrupt people. Again, you didn't need a time stone to see where this story was headed.
In the movie, Strange's main motivation is to restore his hands and go back to his normal life as a doctor. He has a choice between doing that and helping the world, and this is shown by the example with Pangborn who did the former. So even if he makes the "wrong" choice, it's not particularly devastating. In the What If, Strange's main motivation is to create a paradox that will destroy the universe. There's no reason why TAO should take that gamble. Or if she was willing to take that gamble, she should have done a better job hedging her bets.
One, he chooses to try and go back in time, and spends a huge amount of time trying to find the power, damn the consequences, and in his hubris leads to the end of the world, but at the same time, when given that choice, he also chooses to defend the world and give up Christine.
If I'm a recovering addict who decides not to relapse today, that doesn't mean I won't relapse tomorrow or the day after that. Even if there's a version of Doctor Strange that didn't give into temptation on that particular day, the temptation is still there waiting for him to slip up down the road. And it's really stupid for Wong and TAO not to anticipate this.
For instance, Wong could have stuck by Stephen's side and talked him through his grief rather than walk away. TAO could have pointed out that while Strange couldn't change the past, he could use the time stone to live his happier days with her so that she would always live on in his heart. Instead, they hoped that the man who never gives up would spontaneously give up on the main thing that was driving him, which seems stupid and completely out of character.
For instance, Wong could have stuck by Stephen's side and talked him through his grief rather than walk away. TAO could have pointed out that while Strange couldn't change the past, he could use the time stone to live his happier days with her so that she would always live on in his heart. Instead, they hoped that the man who never gives up would spontaneously give up on the main thing that was driving him, which seems stupid and completely out of character.
Sure, this latter part I could agree with. But again, choices with consequences.
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tzeentchlingDoctor of RocksOaklandRegistered Userregular
Honestly, it's all just further proof that every superhero really needs a good therapist.
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zepherinRussian warship, go fuck yourselfRegistered Userregular
Strange can see infinite possible futures, doesn't mean he knows which one he's headed towards. I'm assuming the same goes for Ancient One. We also don't know for sure the 2012 timeline is a seperate one. It likely becomes one after they take the stone and peace out, but before hand it could easily be our past as well
Actually we know that it's Loki stealing the tesseract that causes the timeline to branch
This actually coincides with not seeing past her death and being technically true. She can see all of the possibilities after her death, but she doesn't know which ones will happen because she can no longer effect the events. So she might not be correct. It's just guesses based on probabilities at that point. And each minute, hour year increases the potential for variations in the timeline and future. So maybe the complete answer is I can see a bunch of possibilities after my death, but I don't have the ability to make changes to them, and the further away things become it makes it difficult, but the most likely for the future I think is appropriate is to simply tell you I can't see past my own death.
If you think of it in terms of watching a movie, maybe it's like watching one, then suddenly it just smashes to black. And no matter how further you fast forward, it's just more black.
In Strange's case, he does the same thing, and continually coming across scenarios that just smash to black and no more. Until... wait a tick, here's one where I just suddenly pop back and it's 5 years later, let's keep playing this one out... oh look everybody who got snapped out gets snapped back in? Fuck it, good enough.
Hell as a gamer I can understand that thinking. Trying to farm for "perfect stats", and reaching a point where I've sunk too much damn time and effort into it. Could I theoretically do better? Sure. But... Fuck it, good enough.
The Wolfman on
"The sausage of Green Earth explodes with flavor like the cannon of culinary delight."
Wa-how. Not only did Strange lose, they REALLY rubbed his nose in the fact that he fucked up.
After the first two episodes, I was wondering if they'd really go as far as the comic did, or if they'd stick to crowd-pleasing. Episode three was a little reassuring, but the horror was leavened by loads and loads of laugh lines. Not here. Just dark dark dark. Yep, this is officially a worthy successor to the comic. Anything can happen, even the unthinkable. I love it.
I was wondering why I liked this episode better than the others. It wasn't loaded with lame jokes and wry smiles. Also the voice acting was pretty decent across the board. The animation is still holding it back though. I'm finding characters don't emote well, for the most part.
Yeah, it's been a problem in every episode so far, but it really stood out in this episode because this episode is entirely about emotion.
The acting was phenomenal across the board. Easily the best of the series. You could hear the anguish in Cumberbatch's voice, the playfulness, the anger. Swinton, Wong, McAdams, they all gave it everything (Christine's horrified confusion at the end, incredible). But they were let down in such a big way by the lifelessness of the animation. The faces have such a limited range of expression. Each character basically has a default expression that can only be modified by slightly stretching the 3D model in very limited ways. The most egregious was The Ancient One. It really looked like a mannequin or doll, it was so devoid of life. But it's true for everyone.
It was so bad that at various points I actually was keeping my eyes closed to listen to the dialogue because then I could at least picture the actors and focus on the tremendous performances they were giving. The lifeless "animation" actively detracts from what they're doing. It's such a waste!
I thought the voice acting was still a bit stilted, but it was way better than the previous episodes. It helps that Cumberbatch actually has some VO experience under his belt.
"The sausage of Green Earth explodes with flavor like the cannon of culinary delight."
I thought the voice acting was still a bit stilted, but it was way better than the previous episodes. It helps that Cumberbatch actually has some VO experience under his belt.
Fair enough. I do think that the low-expression animation is making the voice acting come across as worse and more stilted than it actually is in many cases.
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Endgame reveals that TAO was aware of Strange long before he showed up, and that she foresaw what he would become after her death.
In the movie, Strange confronts a guy who demonstrated miraculous healing and asked him how he could do the same, then went to the Ancient One. When the Ancient One started her pitch, he dismissed it as nonsense at first until she demonstrated magic on him.
In this universe, Strange has absolutely no reason to believe that someone is capable of bringing people back from the dead or capable of altering the timeline, and he wouldn't have a lead to point him to TAO in the first place. And once he shows up and he asks him his reasons for being there... what's he going to say? Strange has two options:
1. Be upfront about his goals, at which point, TAO tells him it's impossible.
2. Lie about his goals, at which point, TAO would know that he's hiding something and would be extremely reluctant to train him.
This is less a "What if?" and more an entirely different world with different people and different behavior.
I don't see why she would lie about that particular bit though. She used her dark dimension powers to peak at the future but nothing implies she's all knowing or omnipotent. It's probably easier to see other folks future over your own. She knows strange becomes Sorcerer Supreme, which naturally means she isn't around anymore to be that for the earth.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
1. She said she didn't know his future, but she knew the possibilities. And the idea that someone's who entire motivation is to try to bring someone back from the dead might actually try to do that seems like a pretty glaring possibility.
2. We know she was lying because of Endgame.
3. As for her motivation for lying, that's easy:
Essentially, this is running up against the limitations of what the Time Stone itself can accomplish, even with supplementary magic. Really, Strange should have simply gone after the Reality and Soul stones and combined them to bring her back to life in his own timeline, rather than going back and trying to stop it. The movie already established that you can pop back in time, borrow them, use them, and then return them a split-second after you took them.
He Who Remains: ZAP
What does Endgame have to do with it? If anything, it proves she couldn’t see that far into the future, else why need Hulk to convince her that Strange gave up the time stone if she already knew it would happen?
Strange willingly giving up the stone was a message from Strange to her, telling the Ancient One that he has a plan to stop Thanos. If she could see that, then the message wouldn’t be necessary.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
Further, The Ancient One is aware of possibilities that lead to Stephen becoming a Sorcerer, but it isn't fate. She only knows that Christine's death is the turning point after it happens and after Stephen has tried to change it many times; this forces her to tap into some dark side power to be able to go back without the Time Stone and try and convince Stephen to give up what he's attempting. Christine's death has already happened, so it must always happen. The Ancient One hopes she can preserve Strange by splitting him into what he should be versus what he's trying to be, in the hopes that the bad one will fail and the good one will continue on; sadly for that Earth, the bad Strange gobbles him up for power.
"Our" Stephen goes down a different path, one where he discovers magic and achieves the wisdom to realize that his ability to help was not limited to the use of his hands. This is the Stephen that even chooses to keep his hands as-is because he doesn't need to return to being a surgeon, but they serve as a strong reminder of the price of what he has gained.
FTFY
Because that Hulk was from a different timeline with a different future. Pym particles.
If TAO can only see from the point of her death, there would be no way for her to know for sure that Strange was going to be the best of them. Strange could have given up, gotten killed, turned to the dark side, etc. We know Doctor Strange's ability to see the future not only goes beyond his "death" when the snap happens, but they go beyond the existence of the time stone itself, because Thanos destroys the gems from the main universe at the start of Endgame.
Or maybe Doctor Strange just got corrupted with power and went evil. If she could only see up to the point of her own death, then she would have no way of knowing for sure.
It's clear that her knowledge of the future is limited, otherwise the Hulk telling her about what Strange did wouldn't have been new information.
Actually we know that it's Loki stealing the tesseract that causes the timeline to branch
Also He Who Remains: But now there's infinite me!
My read was that because, in this universe, Strange's impetus to learn magic was Christine's death, undoing that would lead to a situation where the universe got eaten by the Dark Dimension. At which point it wouldn't exist in the first place because wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey.
This was already addressed. She doesn't know absolutely for sure what's going to happen, but she can keep track of the possibilities. Presumably, likelier possibilities would be easier to track.
So how would she miss the possibility of Doctor Strange attempting to bring back Christine, when that was his entire reason for being there in the first place? You don't even need to have the time stone to suspect that. I'm sure most of the people on the forum were able to guess where the story was headed within the first 5 minutes, no time stone required. "Oh, you're giving magic powers to someone who's entirely motivated to bring back a loved one? I'm guessing he's probably going to try to bring her back."
And it's not like Doctor Strange went evil as a result of some incredibly unlikely 1 in a billion fluke that TAO simply overlooked. His entire storyline was building up to this. Everything that Doctor Strange does is the result of motivations she already knew about before she died.
And it's not like she hasn't had apprentices go evil in the past. That was the plot to the first movie. Presumably, she still trained that guy knowing he would turn evil because it was necessary to motivate Doctor Strange into being her next successor. But that only works if she has a guarantee that Doctor Strange wouldn't go evil as well, which she seems to have had in the main MCU, but she obviously didn't have in this "What If".
Yeah that’s literally Time Machine movie logic, like I said
No he wasn't. He was from the same universe, same timeline, same future; Endgame and Loki have cemented this as well; the question to me is whether or not the Ancient One believed what she did about the nature of branching timelines and their relation to the infinity stones based on some more broad knowledge, or if she was also limited in scope due to being (unknowingly, I imagine) perpetually locked in a fixed timeline by the TVA and Kang.
There's been theories that she was in cahoots with Kang (The One Who Remains, I'm just saying Kang, I know some people don't like that), but I'm not sure. There's good reasons she might be, given her role of protecting Earth from extra-dimensional threats, and how having a sacred timeline would minimize those; but she's also keen on free will and things happening the "right" way because of individual choices leading to them. She fiddled with the dark dimension in order to try to see past her death, because she was consumed with protecting the Earth, but seemed to realize that bargain probably risked damning Earth more than any foresight she gained helping.
Honestly, I don't feel like there's been anything to indicate that The Ancient One was ever evil, or trying to undermine anything, or malevolent in any way. She made mistakes and owned them, and even the times she was seemingly dishonest, with Stephen or whomever, it was less to undermine anyone or anything, and more because she thought it would protect them, or the future. I feel like every time she's shown up there is no illusion that she is omnipotent or pure; she's made mistakes and seemingly know that Strange will do the same, but he's the one who will have the power and drive to protect our reality after she's gone, so she did what she could to guide that to happening.
And her actions in Endgame, specifically, showed that she absolutely can't see past her future in any massive way, she seemed to have no real knowledge of what would happen with Thanos and subsequent events, aside from being more aware about the infinity stones than anyone else on earth, prior, or after, until Infinity War. So, in What If? it isn't hard to believe that she doesn't know further than that there is a danger to what Stephen might become given the nature of that universe versions of his fixed point in time, or that all she could see from her delving into the dark powers to peek past her death only showed her enough to know that she had to act to provide a balance to what Stephen might become.
Or, hell, maybe something about how the infinity stones were used by Thanos put a cap on what she could see in the MCU, that wasn't as obscured in the What If? universe because Stephen got his power from extra-dimensional beings and not the infinity stones themselves.
There's any number of possibilities, and a whole host of reasons why that version of The Ancient One could have known more, about different things, than the MCU Ancient One. It doesn't imply any duplicity; I think the story of the episode was pretty straight forward, and I doubt that there was any intent on implying that there was something shady about the Ancient One here.
Personally, I think the only thing that will really matter from this episode is that, in the end, Strange is still alive. Yes, the universe ended, but he didn't, and I'm concerned that, since The Watcher had already turned his back and moved on, he might have missed that fact.
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It's really, really cool seeing the varying results. I bet someone out there could study this show after the season and write a course on how to translate stage to voice acting.
TAO: If I give up the Time Stone to help your reality, I'm dooming my own.
She clearly makes a distinction.
In her reality, Loki runs off with the tessarect, which means that Thanos would have never been able to assemble the gauntlet in the first place, which means that Doctor Strange never has a reason to hand the time gem over to him in this reality.
Moreover, just because she has general access to future knowledge doesn't mean she has total omniscience of events that happened in the future. For instance, I can't tell you what the lottery numbers will be tomorrow, but I can say with reasonable certainty that I don't think you're going to win. TAO might not know every action that Doctor Strange will make in an infinite number of timelines, but she should at least be able to guess whether or not he turns evil. Especially since, once again, his reasons for turning evil wasn't caused by anything new.
I never said she was being shady. My point is that the writing was lazy. They basically just said, "Hey, let's do Guy Pearce version of Time Machine, but in the MCU" and didn't put much thought into it. The entire point of "Time Machine" is that the question of "What if?" is futile in regards to his wife's death because the death is a fixed point in time. This episode tries to do the same thing, which contradicts the premise of the show.
Why does Christine die of a heart attack in this reality when she didn't die of one in the main reality? That's the point where "What if" doesn't matter. And where the logic contradicts itself within the episode logic itself. Because death by heart attacks a higher power at work rather than simply random chance, and any higher power should have seen this outcome. It's basically a catch-22:
1. Christine has to die in order to motivate Doctor Strange to become Sorcerer Supreme, so that he can save the Universe.
2. Except that by using that as his motivation, the universe is basically doomed.
Even if Doctor Strange hadn't chosen to try to bring her back on that particular night, there's nothing stopping him from making a different attempt down the road.
In general, she can't see anything past her death, and since despite the change in why he sought fabulous secret powers, his life turns out almost beat for beat exactly the same. So there's no reason to doubt anything is wrong. ...Until one day when future Strange pops into the past. And at this point, we're deep into wibbly wobbly timey wimey stuff anyways.
She doesn't as clearly as you seem to think, for a few reasons.
She could be wrong. Does she actually know or is she stating that would be what she expects to happen? Is her reality a reality, or just a branch of the timeline? As of loki, we have a single timeline running supposedly, but do we know for sure that there aren't indefinite realities? It's almost like we're trying to force a consistent logic system on a more or less made up system by a writer who has no more or less idea than anyone. Loki seems to indicate she's wrong on a lot of levels, or at least inaccurate.
First and foremost, her very actions in this what if say you are wrong. He goes evil, but then she splits him, and let's part of him RELIVE the same moment, with no other prompting, on the hope he'll make the other choice? This also goes to the heart of Loki, if she knows the future well enough to know how Strange will turn out, rather than how he is inclined to be, then the timeline is fixed and there is no free will. It doesn't really matter what you do.
This entirely misses the point, and the point is made QUITE CLEARLY by Obeng midway through. The fixed point in time is just a setting piece, what it specifically is doesn't matter, and you are overfixating on it. What matters is Strange's choice, and in this very episode we see him make 2 choices from the VERY same set of circumstances. One, he chooses to try and go back in time, and spends a huge amount of time trying to find the power, damn the consequences, and in his hubris leads to the end of the world, but at the same time, when given that choice, he also chooses to defend the world and give up Christine. Granted, in this reality he fails and loses to Evil!Strange, who then has to live with the fact that not only did he destroy the world, but he destroyed the very thing he meant to protect and save. Worrying about how they represent Christine Mills as a fixed point in time is like worrying about why there are so many damned radioactive spiders to make spider people, or how the yellow sun could give a being Superman level powers and contrarily why just putting the right color lampshade on a room light robs him of his power. It's only there to set up the actual story.
EDIT: The hell did I do to the quote trees..... sheesh.
Where are you going?
... there's nothing left to see here.
And I'm definitely on board with Uatu interfering before this season is done.
And I do mean this particular season, because I'm not sure if I missed it on an earlier page, but it has already been picked up for a second season of 9 episodes, likely to air in 2022.
Running What If throughout the MCU is honestly one of the best things they could do. It would need fairly minimal effort from the actual character actors, can make do without them if necessary, and frankly is a fantastic avenue for mountains of great new artwork and concepts.
This assumption was already addressed in my post.
Strange looks into 14 million possible futures from his perspective -- but that doesn't mean he can give you a full and thorough breakdown of everything that happened in all 14 million. He probably didn't delve any deeper than "Oh, we lose, next!"
How would she know that for sure if she can't see past her death? You're contradicting yourself.
Again, you're contradicting yourself. Exactly the same as what? Exactly the same as an alternate future where Strange is a good guy that happens after her death that you say she can't see?
"Strange was doing great right up until everyone died!"
Meanwhile, his entire motivation for everyone dying happened because of the 2 year anniversary of Christine's death, which made him sad. TAO couldn't foresee that Strange would still be sad over Christine's death? She couldn't foresee that there would be future anniversary's of that day that would make him reflect on that? Again, you don't exactly need the time stone to realize that as an inevitability.
On a multiversal scale a Strange variant that destroys his universe is a cosmic rarity. So she generally sees either Sorcerer Supreme Strange and an intact universe or universe gone looks like Dormammu ate it.
Maybe if she had another 1,000 years she might have caught a glimpse of the universe Strange himself doomed and not Dormammu.
Strange didn't die, but also he could see after he returned 5 years in the future, so he'd know which outcomes worked.
We already know it's a different reality because different events happen in it, even without the missing stones. Like the fact that Captain America ends up fighting himself. Banner didn't come up with the plan of returning the infinity stones until after he met TAO. Which implies they weren't planning to return the stones before that. Which would have caused a paradox if they were from the same reality.
The entire arc of Doctor Strange is that Strange is driven by his fear of failure and refusal to lose, which is both his greatest strength and his greatest weakness. His arc completes when he realizes he can't beat the villain by winning, he can only win by losing over and over again for all eternity.
Dr. Stephen Strange: No… No! No, no, no, no no no no! No! Open the door! Please!
The Ancient One: Thank you, Masters. You think I’m wrong to cast him out?
Mordo: 5 hours later, he’s still on your doorstep. There’s a strength to him.
The Ancient One: Stubbornness, arrogance, ambition…I’ve seen it all before.
Mordo: He reminds you of Kaecilius?
The Ancient One: I can not lead another gifted student to power, only to lose him to the darkness.
It really doesn't make any sense for her to simply assume that Strange will give up and stop trying when his refusal to give up is his main defining trait, and when she's seen how this can corrupt people. Again, you didn't need a time stone to see where this story was headed.
In the movie, Strange's main motivation is to restore his hands and go back to his normal life as a doctor. He has a choice between doing that and helping the world, and this is shown by the example with Pangborn who did the former. So even if he makes the "wrong" choice, it's not particularly devastating. In the What If, Strange's main motivation is to create a paradox that will destroy the universe. There's no reason why TAO should take that gamble. Or if she was willing to take that gamble, she should have done a better job hedging her bets.
If I'm a recovering addict who decides not to relapse today, that doesn't mean I won't relapse tomorrow or the day after that. Even if there's a version of Doctor Strange that didn't give into temptation on that particular day, the temptation is still there waiting for him to slip up down the road. And it's really stupid for Wong and TAO not to anticipate this.
For instance, Wong could have stuck by Stephen's side and talked him through his grief rather than walk away. TAO could have pointed out that while Strange couldn't change the past, he could use the time stone to live his happier days with her so that she would always live on in his heart. Instead, they hoped that the man who never gives up would spontaneously give up on the main thing that was driving him, which seems stupid and completely out of character.
Sure, this latter part I could agree with. But again, choices with consequences.
In Strange's case, he does the same thing, and continually coming across scenarios that just smash to black and no more. Until... wait a tick, here's one where I just suddenly pop back and it's 5 years later, let's keep playing this one out... oh look everybody who got snapped out gets snapped back in? Fuck it, good enough.
Hell as a gamer I can understand that thinking. Trying to farm for "perfect stats", and reaching a point where I've sunk too much damn time and effort into it. Could I theoretically do better? Sure. But... Fuck it, good enough.
Yeah, it's been a problem in every episode so far, but it really stood out in this episode because this episode is entirely about emotion.
The acting was phenomenal across the board. Easily the best of the series. You could hear the anguish in Cumberbatch's voice, the playfulness, the anger. Swinton, Wong, McAdams, they all gave it everything (Christine's horrified confusion at the end, incredible). But they were let down in such a big way by the lifelessness of the animation. The faces have such a limited range of expression. Each character basically has a default expression that can only be modified by slightly stretching the 3D model in very limited ways. The most egregious was The Ancient One. It really looked like a mannequin or doll, it was so devoid of life. But it's true for everyone.
It was so bad that at various points I actually was keeping my eyes closed to listen to the dialogue because then I could at least picture the actors and focus on the tremendous performances they were giving. The lifeless "animation" actively detracts from what they're doing. It's such a waste!
Fair enough. I do think that the low-expression animation is making the voice acting come across as worse and more stilted than it actually is in many cases.