I thought the voice acting was still a bit stilted, but it was way better than the previous episodes. It helps that Cumberbatch actually has some VO experience under his belt.
They should have made him say penguin at some point.
Nowhere is it stated in this episode that Strange learned magic with the intent of reviving Christine. He only became obsessed with it when he discovered time manipulation. Admittedly Strange's motivation for learning magic is brushed over very quickly and it's a bit of a plot hole in the episode. I think they should have had the crash mess up his hands in addition to losing Christine.
I don't see how this is at all a plot hole so much as a problem people are seeing weirdly. For their branch of the multiverse to exist, Dr. Strange has to be motivated by Christine's death. Yes, there are a million other ways he ends up as Sorcerer Supreme. All of those are a different timeline. It isn't that it can't be done, but how be is doing it that causes problems. If this was Endgame time travel there is not problem. Time stone doesn't create a branch though, so in the end the destruction of that specific branch of the multiverse is the only possible outcome.
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
There's no reason the show should have to explicitly state "and then Strange learned magic because he wanted to revive Christine", because that isn't why he learned magic. Christine dying kicks him into a state of mind where he's trying to reach beyond the limits of normal medicine because her death left him powerless and he never wants to have that happen again. Losing his hands did the same thing, but it made the feeling of helplessness attached to something about himself, not events that happened around him. And it's this desire for an impossible level of control that sends him down his dark road, whereas "our" Strange is able to learn that there are larger issues than simply fixing his hands and thus embrace a role where, yes, he has great power, but he also must accept that some things will happen that he cannot control or change. I mean, Darth Strange even gets called out directly on his inability to accept that he cannot control some things.
Finding out that there might be a path to reviving Christine came completely after the fact, and that information is what sealed the fate of this Strange. Short of never knowing of the existence of the Time Stone, he was always going to pursue it and go down the wrong path. But he could've still been the Sorcerer Supreme after Christine's death, and TAO tries to save that part of him.
I thought the voice acting was still a bit stilted, but it was way better than the previous episodes. It helps that Cumberbatch actually has some VO experience under his belt.
They should have made him say pengwing at some point.
TAO: If I give up the Time Stone to help your reality, I'm dooming my own.
She clearly makes a distinction.
Yes, because she is speaking about two realities, one where they had the time stone, and another where they didn’t, because they gave it to Banner. Banner countered that argument by pointing out that if they returned the Stone, it wouldn’t create a branch.
Let not any one pacify his conscience by the delusion that he can do no harm if he takes no part, and forms no opinion.
I rewatched Doctor Strange last night and it's still a top tier MCU movie. The shot of Strange floating in space after his ego death is pretty iconic and very comic book
This scene also was really good, and gives context to what TAO could actually see (it's her dying words so I don't think she'd lie about being unable to see past her death) https://youtu.be/H1UoqbIQpnU
She can't really see Strange's future, just the possibilities.
"It's not aboutyou." Swinton nailed the role. The way the camera swings around after that line as Strange literally changes his point of view was excellent
Nowhere is it stated in this episode that Strange learned magic with the intent of reviving Christine. He only became obsessed with it when he discovered time manipulation. Admittedly Strange's motivation for learning magic is brushed over very quickly and it's a bit of a plot hole in the episode. I think they should have had the crash mess up his hands in addition to losing Christine.
What?
The Watcher: "In this universe Stephen Strange didn't lose his hands, but his heart. Grief stricken, Strange sought answers across the world and in the mystic arts."
At which point the next lines come from Strange and he expresses excited interest with the Eye of Agamotto being able to manipulate timelines
Like the only way it could be more explicitly spelled out is if The Watcher said "What I'm saying is that Strange wants to somehow change the timeline so that Christine no longer dies. Isn't that right, Stephen?" and then Strange fist bumps him and says "Totes!"
In this What If? The first major change is that him and Christine never broke up. At the beginning of Doctor Strange they aren't together because he's a prick, and he's driving to the gala alone.
My biggest complaint is we know that changing the timeline doesn't result in any paradoxes, just a split creating a new timeline.
Still a great episode though.
MCU rules are that a) you can't change your own timeline because b) a new timeline pops up if you travel back in time and you start at the split. There's no way to create a paradox that way because you can't alter your personal history, just create an alternate timeline with different events.
Strange used a fundamental force of the universe (time) to undo the progress of the universe and actually go back to change his own timeline. No branching timelines or anything. As a result, Strange's universe was fucked. Christine had to die in that reality to create the Strange that could have the power to try and avoid her death; removing the event and keeping the results broke the whole universe and killed it, but it's not the same thing that happens in Endgame. He made an actual paradox and it killed reality.
If Strange had used the Stark time machine to go back and avoid Christine's death, he could've saved her but then a timeline without Sorcerer Strange would've been made. "His" Christine would still be dead, though.
My biggest complaint is we know that changing the timeline doesn't result in any paradoxes, just a split creating a new timeline.
Still a great episode though.
Don't forget, there are at least 3 different ways of traveling through time travel in the MCU (quantum, TVA, and Time Stone). They do not have to work by the same rules, and in fact they seem pretty obviously like they don't. The Time Stone one seems to be the most powerful/flexible, if only because it's literally the "you literally control the way time works in the universe" rock.
TTODewbackPuts the drawl in ya'llI think I'm in HellRegistered Userregular
I think it’s becoming more obvious this isn’t actually a What If series . It’s more of a prequel leading up to the multiverse crossing in Loki.
All these events are actually happening will have some effect on the Sacred Timeline due to the events of Loki
The watcher intervening which is guaranteed to happen by the end will be what drags it all over and will happen at the exact same time that Sylvie made her decision
As the only thing that allows his interference is the multiverse opening again
Bless your heart.
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Zilla36021st Century. |She/Her|Trans* Woman In Aviators Firing A Bazooka. ⚛️Registered Userregular
My biggest complaint is we know that changing the timeline doesn't result in any paradoxes, just a split creating a new timeline.
Still a great episode though.
Don't forget, there are at least 3 different ways of traveling through time travel in the MCU (quantum, TVA, and Time Stone). They do not have to work by the same rules, and in fact they seem pretty obviously like they don't. The Time Stone one seems to be the most powerful/flexible, if only because it's literally the "you literally control the way time works in the universe" rock.
Four methods in a way. Cagliostro says that power is what's needed to overcome the limitations shared by the Eye of Agamotto and the quantum tunnel. What this monster eater Strange was doing is different than what Dormamu-I've-come-to-bargain Strange was doing, and seems to operate closer to the TVA's method (which is clearly not bound by those rules as they could never fully prune a timeline as their interventions just keep producing more).
I do like that the MCU has multiple ways to time travel and has been more or less fairly consistent with how each one works and the rules at play in the setting.
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
My biggest complaint is we know that changing the timeline doesn't result in any paradoxes, just a split creating a new timeline.
Still a great episode though.
Don't forget, there are at least 3 different ways of traveling through time travel in the MCU (quantum, TVA, and Time Stone). They do not have to work by the same rules, and in fact they seem pretty obviously like they don't. The Time Stone one seems to be the most powerful/flexible, if only because it's literally the "you literally control the way time works in the universe" rock.
Four methods in a way. Cagliostro says that power is what's needed to overcome the limitations shared by the Eye of Agamotto and the quantum tunnel. What this monster eater Strange was doing is different than what Dormamu-I've-come-to-bargain Strange was doing, and seems to operate closer to the TVA's method (which is clearly not bound by those rules as they could never fully prune a timeline as their interventions just keep producing more).
To me, it would seem that the power Strange seeks is simply not achievable in a universe that can survive using said power. When things collapse on him, he's clearly able to stop it in his immediate vicinity thanks to all the power he's absorbed but helpless to save the universe at large. So the power needed to brute-force change the past would seem to be a barely-noticeable fraction of the power needed to keep the universe from destroying itself as a result.
Which would actually suggest a reason why Uata refuses to interfere: if Darth Strange is made aware of other realities, he would strip them of power and destroy them in order to save his reality. And it would all be in an utterly futile attempt because the process of becoming something that can save Christine would render Strange into something that could only horrify her.
I think the Fixed Point in Time thing are things that just come to pass in that specific timeline. If they don't, things unravel because now the universe is off the rails. They've warned of the dangers of time travel, and I assume things can go yucky even if the TVA wasn't involved. Also, we know that Kang/TVA are using future tech from the year 3000. They've known about the stones including the time stone for nearly 1000 years by the time Kang makes his time travel/universe hopping devices. So I actually think the TVA, with the ability to inert infinity stones and end alternative timelines is stronger than the time stone (and their tech works where magic doesn't, and and the time stone only seems to rewind time in that specific universe... The TVA can jump to any universe and delete it. Time stone technically is stronger that it can rewind a red lining world?)
And him going back to save Christine wasn't ever gonna work because it causes a time paradox. How can Strange become Supreme if he doesn't lose her in the first place?
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Zilla36021st Century. |She/Her|Trans* Woman In Aviators Firing A Bazooka. ⚛️Registered Userregular
'Last and First Men' made me want to get stuck in an elevator with Tilda Swinton for hours. Such a voice of wisdom. :heartbeat:
I can't believe I only just now realized that the acronym for her MCU character is TAO, the ancient one. Obvious in hindsight. :redface: *facepalm* *doh!*.
I think the Fixed Point in Time thing are things that just come to pass in that specific timeline. If they don't, things unravel because now the universe is off the rails. They've warned of the dangers of time travel, and I assume things can go yucky even if the TVA wasn't involved. Also, we know that Kang/TVA are using future tech from the year 3000. They've known about the stones including the time stone for nearly 1000 years by the time Kang makes his time travel/universe hopping devices. So I actually think the TVA, with the ability to inert infinity stones and end alternative timelines is stronger than the time stone (and their tech works where magic doesn't, and and the time stone only seems to rewind time in that specific universe... The TVA can jump to any universe and delete it. Time stone technically is stronger that it can rewind a red lining world?)
And him going back to save Christine wasn't ever gonna work because it causes a time paradox. How can Strange become Supreme if he doesn't lose her in the first place?
Maybe. I mean, it does, but it also assumes that matters. Heck, for all we know, altering time like that is neither altering a single stable flow or branching alternates. What if it's like splicing time. Basically, he travels back in time, then the time from his perspective continues on, so the whole crash essentially happened twice (assuming one time travel event). This would obviously require a few things, like the time traveler(s) being the stitch between the two frames of time reference, and either you would possibly have duplicates of time travellers (in the case of a short hop) or you would have to replace yourself.
Essentially a long version of saying: "What if time paradoxes don't matter because what already happened, has happened. Saving Christine doesn't matter because from his perspective, she already died and he trained.
Just watched the latest one. Left me watching the end credits, musing playing, low key shocked they went there. I figured good Strange would take over once they fused, but they went by Majin Buu logic here, so bad Strange got the power. They really let the bad guy win. Ballsy move for Disney owned MCU.
Just watched the latest one. Left me watching the end credits, musing playing, low key shocked they went there. I figured good Strange would take over once they fused, but they went by Majin Buu logic here, so bad Strange got the power. They really let the bad guy win. Ballsy move for Disney owned MCU.
Not really. They let Thanos kill half the universe, including Spider-man and Black Panther on screen. This was another step but a logical development, Disney+ shows have trended darker in tone like Falcon and Winter Soldier.
It's one in infinite bleak outcomes. We know multiple millions of timelines that end with Thanos winning. The winning timeline is the outlier, not the norm.
That's not dark, because you know they're coming back. There was never any suspense in that. This just ends dark, there is no hope.
I still don't understand this argument. The second movie wasn't out yet and we just watch a young Spiderman get vaporized in front of his father figure. Not sure how you act like that wasn't dark.
That's not dark, because you know they're coming back. There was never any suspense in that. This just ends dark, there is no hope.
I still don't understand this argument. The second movie wasn't out yet and we just watch a young Spiderman get vaporized in front of his father figure. Not sure how you act like that wasn't dark.
It's the cliffhanger problem with TV shows. In general, it's hard to buy into the deaths of major characters because they are so often brought back. It's a dark moment in universe, but IRL, we expect them to come back. It's one of the reasons certain show makers who will not be named here made a habit of killing at least major supporting characters, if not main characters early and permanently.
I mean, killing a bunch of supporting characters, meh. Maybe. Killing SPIDERMAN? You know he's coming back.
Thanks winning was pretty dark, but it's still not as dark as the latest episode. There were still people left. There was still hope. The ramifications of Endgame get dark, but not this kid a dark. It wasn't the self inflicted complete annihilation of reality.
In the sliding scale of dark, IW and Endgame were dark contrasted with hope. This latest episode of What If...? went of the scale.
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
Strange feels real bad about that, but it was the only way to make they got the real threat to Earth: Stark.
All those millions of other timelines still saw them winning against Thanos, but then two years later Stark comes up with his next-brilliant-est idea and builds a gem-powered Ultron heximony (because this way they can have a balanced discussion, guys!), which instantly taps into Stark's space-tech ultra-drone army, vaporizes the surface of the Earth, and then flies out into space to spread "peace".
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zepherinRussian warship, go fuck yourselfRegistered Userregular
Strange feels real bad about that, but it was the only way to make they got the real threat to Earth: Stark.
All those millions of other timelines still saw them winning against Thanos, but then two years later Stark comes up with his next-brilliant-est idea and builds a gem-powered Ultron heximony (because this way they can have a balanced discussion, guys!), which instantly taps into Stark's space-tech ultra-drone army, vaporizes the surface of the Earth, and then flies out into space to spread "peace".
I saw some theories about that. That the assembled infinity gems were a bigger threat than thanos. So he needed a future where the infinity stones were destroyed/scattered and all of the people were unsnapped.
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MalReynoldsThe Hunter S Thompson of incredibly mild medicinesRegistered Userregular
edited September 2021
That's definitely a soul stone at the end, right?
I wouldn't be surprised if the unification of the stones was a Thing in this series, especially considering it looked like Dr. Strange ate that tentacle monster that Peggy was fighting.
So those two are linked, I thiiiink Nick Fury and Captain America are gonna be linked.
Hm.
Oh. Okay, everyone comes together to fight Ego, I bet. They assemble the stones, including the purple Dr. Strange, T'challa and the Guardians/Thanos are gonna play into that, Nick Fury and Captain Marvel and Peggy are there too, I bet.
I think they take place in similar realities to where we're gonna get an Endgame style timeline crossover. They've kept the characters separate enough at this point that I think most of them are in the same reality since the characters wouldn't be interacting yet.
ALSO THEY WHIFFED HARD on not having Loki do the boot/ant line during that episode.
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Finding out that there might be a path to reviving Christine came completely after the fact, and that information is what sealed the fate of this Strange. Short of never knowing of the existence of the Time Stone, he was always going to pursue it and go down the wrong path. But he could've still been the Sorcerer Supreme after Christine's death, and TAO tries to save that part of him.
e: at around 3 minutes, 15 seconds if the timestamp didn't work.
Yes, because she is speaking about two realities, one where they had the time stone, and another where they didn’t, because they gave it to Banner. Banner countered that argument by pointing out that if they returned the Stone, it wouldn’t create a branch.
- John Stuart Mill
This scene also was really good, and gives context to what TAO could actually see (it's her dying words so I don't think she'd lie about being unable to see past her death)
She can't really see Strange's future, just the possibilities.
"It's not about you." Swinton nailed the role. The way the camera swings around after that line as Strange literally changes his point of view was excellent
What?
At which point the next lines come from Strange and he expresses excited interest with the Eye of Agamotto being able to manipulate timelines
Like the only way it could be more explicitly spelled out is if The Watcher said "What I'm saying is that Strange wants to somehow change the timeline so that Christine no longer dies. Isn't that right, Stephen?" and then Strange fist bumps him and says "Totes!"
Still a great episode though.
It’s handwave reality magic, maybe that’s different than linear time
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MCU rules are that a) you can't change your own timeline because b) a new timeline pops up if you travel back in time and you start at the split. There's no way to create a paradox that way because you can't alter your personal history, just create an alternate timeline with different events.
Strange used a fundamental force of the universe (time) to undo the progress of the universe and actually go back to change his own timeline. No branching timelines or anything. As a result, Strange's universe was fucked. Christine had to die in that reality to create the Strange that could have the power to try and avoid her death; removing the event and keeping the results broke the whole universe and killed it, but it's not the same thing that happens in Endgame. He made an actual paradox and it killed reality.
If Strange had used the Stark time machine to go back and avoid Christine's death, he could've saved her but then a timeline without Sorcerer Strange would've been made. "His" Christine would still be dead, though.
Don't forget, there are at least 3 different ways of traveling through time travel in the MCU (quantum, TVA, and Time Stone). They do not have to work by the same rules, and in fact they seem pretty obviously like they don't. The Time Stone one seems to be the most powerful/flexible, if only because it's literally the "you literally control the way time works in the universe" rock.
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All these events are actually happening will have some effect on the Sacred Timeline due to the events of Loki
The watcher intervening which is guaranteed to happen by the end will be what drags it all over and will happen at the exact same time that Sylvie made her decision
As the only thing that allows his interference is the multiverse opening again
Four methods in a way. Cagliostro says that power is what's needed to overcome the limitations shared by the Eye of Agamotto and the quantum tunnel. What this monster eater Strange was doing is different than what Dormamu-I've-come-to-bargain Strange was doing, and seems to operate closer to the TVA's method (which is clearly not bound by those rules as they could never fully prune a timeline as their interventions just keep producing more).
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
To me, it would seem that the power Strange seeks is simply not achievable in a universe that can survive using said power. When things collapse on him, he's clearly able to stop it in his immediate vicinity thanks to all the power he's absorbed but helpless to save the universe at large. So the power needed to brute-force change the past would seem to be a barely-noticeable fraction of the power needed to keep the universe from destroying itself as a result.
Which would actually suggest a reason why Uata refuses to interfere: if Darth Strange is made aware of other realities, he would strip them of power and destroy them in order to save his reality. And it would all be in an utterly futile attempt because the process of becoming something that can save Christine would render Strange into something that could only horrify her.
And him going back to save Christine wasn't ever gonna work because it causes a time paradox. How can Strange become Supreme if he doesn't lose her in the first place?
I can't believe I only just now realized that the acronym for her MCU character is TAO, the ancient one. Obvious in hindsight. :redface: *facepalm* *doh!*.
Maybe. I mean, it does, but it also assumes that matters. Heck, for all we know, altering time like that is neither altering a single stable flow or branching alternates. What if it's like splicing time. Basically, he travels back in time, then the time from his perspective continues on, so the whole crash essentially happened twice (assuming one time travel event). This would obviously require a few things, like the time traveler(s) being the stitch between the two frames of time reference, and either you would possibly have duplicates of time travellers (in the case of a short hop) or you would have to replace yourself.
Essentially a long version of saying: "What if time paradoxes don't matter because what already happened, has happened. Saving Christine doesn't matter because from his perspective, she already died and he trained.
Not really. They let Thanos kill half the universe, including Spider-man and Black Panther on screen. This was another step but a logical development, Disney+ shows have trended darker in tone like Falcon and Winter Soldier.
We know they're coming back, the casuals and kids didn't.
Way to be unnecessarily condescending.
I still don't understand this argument. The second movie wasn't out yet and we just watch a young Spiderman get vaporized in front of his father figure. Not sure how you act like that wasn't dark.
It's the cliffhanger problem with TV shows. In general, it's hard to buy into the deaths of major characters because they are so often brought back. It's a dark moment in universe, but IRL, we expect them to come back. It's one of the reasons certain show makers who will not be named here made a habit of killing at least major supporting characters, if not main characters early and permanently.
I mean, killing a bunch of supporting characters, meh. Maybe. Killing SPIDERMAN? You know he's coming back.
In the sliding scale of dark, IW and Endgame were dark contrasted with hope. This latest episode of What If...? went of the scale.
Strange feels real bad about that, but it was the only way to make they got the real threat to Earth: Stark.
All those millions of other timelines still saw them winning against Thanos, but then two years later Stark comes up with his next-brilliant-est idea and builds a gem-powered Ultron heximony (because this way they can have a balanced discussion, guys!), which instantly taps into Stark's space-tech ultra-drone army, vaporizes the surface of the Earth, and then flies out into space to spread "peace".
I saw some theories about that. That the assembled infinity gems were a bigger threat than thanos. So he needed a future where the infinity stones were destroyed/scattered and all of the people were unsnapped.
I wouldn't be surprised if the unification of the stones was a Thing in this series, especially considering it looked like Dr. Strange ate that tentacle monster that Peggy was fighting.
So those two are linked, I thiiiink Nick Fury and Captain America are gonna be linked.
Hm.
Oh. Okay, everyone comes together to fight Ego, I bet. They assemble the stones, including the purple Dr. Strange, T'challa and the Guardians/Thanos are gonna play into that, Nick Fury and Captain Marvel and Peggy are there too, I bet.
I think they take place in similar realities to where we're gonna get an Endgame style timeline crossover. They've kept the characters separate enough at this point that I think most of them are in the same reality since the characters wouldn't be interacting yet.
ALSO THEY WHIFFED HARD on not having Loki do the boot/ant line during that episode.
"Readers who prefer tension and romance, Maledictions: The Offering, delivers... As serious YA fiction, I’ll give it five stars out of five. As a novel? Four and a half." - Liz Ellor
My new novel: Maledictions: The Offering. Now in Paperback!