Forehead aliens were the product of the limitations of technology and money. The Klingons, because they're the most fleshed out race, are the most deserving of a redesign, IMO. It's nice for the aliens to actually feel alien. I just think it's something you'd need to package with a compete reboot.
Forehead aliens were the product of the limitations of technology and money. The Klingons, because they're the most fleshed out race, are the most deserving of a redesign, IMO. It's nice for the aliens to actually feel alien. I just think it's something you'd need to package with a compete reboot.
Except they don't? They look more rubber forehead alien than ever. Like that's sort of the thing, the prostheses by the era of DS9 were incredibly well thought out, with ones specifically made to allow the actors to... well... act. Then you fast forward to disco and it's the most obviously rubber forehead thing since, well, 30+ years ago? It's like saying "well, Dalek's are a product of their area, so we should redesign them". You'd be wrong there too. Besides, Klingon's already got a very solid redesign in the 80's, they really don't need another.
I've heard one suggestion/theory that the entire reason their Klingons are like that was so that Voq would be unrecognizable out of makeup.
That the whole thing was in service of that "tweest".
I'm not sure which would be worse/more sad, that or simply doing it "because we can"/"we want to be Different for the sake of being Different" (when the biggest thing the show has going for it is being part of an established, familiar franchise).
Oh hey, Gwyn changed teams after she realised the Diviner didn't give two shits about her and picked chasing the ship over saving her, that's surprising.
I don't know if this is overly predictable writing, or I'm just getting better at predicting it.
I did like Holo Janeway trying to problem solve: "What would the real Janeway do? Ah yes, destroy everything that opposes her!"
Also, I assume that it's mostly thanks to this thread title that I immediately started thinking "Baby Star doo-doo-doo-doo-doo-doo, Baby Star doo-doo-doo-doo".
It's still a bad name for the ship, though. It's like calling Discovery the USS Spore.
Oh hey, Gwyn changed teams after she realised the Diviner didn't give two shits about her and picked chasing the ship over saving her, that's surprising.
I don't know if this is overly predictable writing, or I'm just getting better at predicting it.
I did like Holo Janeway trying to problem solve: "What would the real Janeway do? Ah yes, destroy everything that opposes her!"
Also, I assume that it's mostly thanks to this thread title that I immediately started thinking "Baby Star doo-doo-doo-doo-doo-doo, Baby Star doo-doo-doo-doo".
It's still a bad name for the ship, though. It's like calling Discovery the USS Spore.
I really want that Holo Janeway bit to be a meme
I have a podcast now. It's about video games and anime!Find it here.
I like the idea behind the Klingon redesign, but I think they would have been better served in a full reboot rather than a weird prequel that looks more advanced than the shows that take place a hundred years later.
Also it's funny that Lower Decks completely fucking ignores that redesign.
Anywho, it's fun to have two Star Trek shows airing at once.
Prodigy S1E5
Okay, what the hell is going on here. First a Klingon ship out in the middle of the Delta Quadrant and now the Protostar has some sort of super warp engine? (Sounds like the year 3000 could use that.)
The ship can't be the generation ship that Voyager found, since that got destroyed. When does this show take place?
Dal was much more tolerable this episode, thank god.
Jankem Pog bragging about not having to worry about temperature because he brought a spacesuit is my everything.
Little trite that Gwyn leaves to join the crew because her dad did the "chose his mission over me" cliche but whatever, she's on the crew now. Between the leadership she demonstrated and the fact this episode ends with her in the chair, I'm really hoping she'll be made Captain. I'm guessing the next episode will be her and Dal fighting over it.
Really curious what the hell is up with the Protostar and when the show takes place.
I'm half expecting them to run into the Discovery at this point.
Discovery S4E1
I was pretty up on this episode right up to Booker's planet getting destroyed. That's exactly the kind of unnecessary stakes raising that kills the mood. We were having lots of fun making diplomatic contact and doing rescue missions and then WHOOPS, major fucking threat of the season. Can't wait for that to suck up all of the oxygen in the room.
I don't agree on the entire premise about the Klingon redesign. What did it accomplish? Starship aesthetics? Fine, I think they did reasonably.
I mean, looking at this image:
I think they did a pretty good job of making the ToS era ship look MORE advanced.
They even did a reasonable job of updating the 60's Enterprise bridge aesthetic (even if I think it looks like an OSHA hazard)
I'm quite ok for allowing for 60 years of show making technology. Going back to the Klingon stuff, I'm not even opposed to the concept of the enemy they had... it's just. WHY THE KLINGONS, a richly defined, well established race. Worse, they didn't even do the Klingon/Federation war justice (Axanar in a like 15 minute short did better than that).
Wait until (assuming you watch this far) they
end up deciding that they are no longer at war either with the Federation or internally among the Great Houses (which I guess they would have to have been at the start of the show to all be clean-shaven when we meet them?) and decide to grow back long hair and beards out of nowhere. On top of those latex-death-mask appliances.
It’s certainly a choice that was made!
To be honest I’m not even a fan of the ship or costume design updates for the Klingons in DISCO. I like the idea of leaning much harder into the ways Klingons are actually alien, but where they landed was too much like villains from a Riddick movie for my taste.
The final 30 seconds absolutely tanked my interest though. Blurgh. The stakes are already SO HIGH. The federation is barely holding things together. Any missteps could jeopardize universal peace. Oh but lets also blow up a planet i guess.
Forehead aliens were the product of the limitations of technology and money. The Klingons, because they're the most fleshed out race, are the most deserving of a redesign, IMO. It's nice for the aliens to actually feel alien. I just think it's something you'd need to package with a compete reboot.
Except they don't? They look more rubber forehead alien than ever. Like that's sort of the thing, the prostheses by the era of DS9 were incredibly well thought out, with ones specifically made to allow the actors to... well... act. Then you fast forward to disco and it's the most obviously rubber forehead thing since, well, 30+ years ago? It's like saying "well, Dalek's are a product of their area, so we should redesign them". You'd be wrong there too. Besides, Klingon's already got a very solid redesign in the 80's, they really don't need another.
You're basically speaking greek to me. I had none of these issues with the Discovery Klingons. I'm probably in the minority there, but whatever.
I feel like Discovery just needs to slow the fuck down
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MonwynApathy's a tragedy, and boredom is a crime.A little bit of everything, all of the time.Registered Userregular
Disco S4E1 was really good! And then it wasn't!
About halfway through I became convinced that the whole situation was essentially revisiting Troi's test for bridge crew on TNG, with the Fed president there as proctor. And it kind of was! The way it worked out was fine, and the president flatly saying she didn't think Burnham is really ready to make the big decisions is something I agree with. It was an excellent season opener that introduces a theme that could be revisited through the season while doing all kinds of cool classic Trek stuff.
And then they blew up a planet because we need a GALAXY-EATING THREAT OF THE SEASON and I said "Aww FOR FUCKS' SAKE" out loud.
Forehead aliens were the product of the limitations of technology and money. The Klingons, because they're the most fleshed out race, are the most deserving of a redesign, IMO. It's nice for the aliens to actually feel alien. I just think it's something you'd need to package with a compete reboot.
Except they don't? They look more rubber forehead alien than ever. Like that's sort of the thing, the prostheses by the era of DS9 were incredibly well thought out, with ones specifically made to allow the actors to... well... act. Then you fast forward to disco and it's the most obviously rubber forehead thing since, well, 30+ years ago? It's like saying "well, Dalek's are a product of their area, so we should redesign them". You'd be wrong there too. Besides, Klingon's already got a very solid redesign in the 80's, they really don't need another.
You're basically speaking greek to me. I had none of these issues with the Discovery Klingons. I'm probably in the minority there, but whatever.
Short version, NuKlingons didn't look more alien, they look like they were wearing bigger/thicker masks. Honestly, they looked more like a random villain of the week race that was done quickly to save money.
Forehead aliens were the product of the limitations of technology and money. The Klingons, because they're the most fleshed out race, are the most deserving of a redesign, IMO. It's nice for the aliens to actually feel alien. I just think it's something you'd need to package with a compete reboot.
Except they don't? They look more rubber forehead alien than ever. Like that's sort of the thing, the prostheses by the era of DS9 were incredibly well thought out, with ones specifically made to allow the actors to... well... act. Then you fast forward to disco and it's the most obviously rubber forehead thing since, well, 30+ years ago? It's like saying "well, Dalek's are a product of their area, so we should redesign them". You'd be wrong there too. Besides, Klingon's already got a very solid redesign in the 80's, they really don't need another.
You're basically speaking greek to me. I had none of these issues with the Discovery Klingons. I'm probably in the minority there, but whatever.
Short version, NuKlingons didn't look more alien, they look like they were wearing bigger/thicker masks. Honestly, they looked more like a random villain of the week race that was done quickly to save money.
Sorry, I should have said "I understand the words, but not in that order" as my facetious comment (Or just not done a facetious comment, of course). I understand what you're saying, I just do not agree with it. I think the Discovery Klingon makeup looks better than the originals and I had none of the issues you've had with them.
Forehead aliens were the product of the limitations of technology and money. The Klingons, because they're the most fleshed out race, are the most deserving of a redesign, IMO. It's nice for the aliens to actually feel alien. I just think it's something you'd need to package with a compete reboot.
Except they don't? They look more rubber forehead alien than ever. Like that's sort of the thing, the prostheses by the era of DS9 were incredibly well thought out, with ones specifically made to allow the actors to... well... act. Then you fast forward to disco and it's the most obviously rubber forehead thing since, well, 30+ years ago? It's like saying "well, Dalek's are a product of their area, so we should redesign them". You'd be wrong there too. Besides, Klingon's already got a very solid redesign in the 80's, they really don't need another.
You're basically speaking greek to me. I had none of these issues with the Discovery Klingons. I'm probably in the minority there, but whatever.
Short version, NuKlingons didn't look more alien, they look like they were wearing bigger/thicker masks. Honestly, they looked more like a random villain of the week race that was done quickly to save money.
Sorry, I should have said "I understand the words, but not in that order" as my facetious comment (Or just not done a facetious comment, of course). I understand what you're saying, I just do not agree with it. I think the Discovery Klingon makeup looks better than the originals and I had none of the issues you've had with them.
Also the “original” Klingons were horrifying orientalist stereotypes, so there’s that.
It feels to me like it's just complaining about change, which is particularly good in the Klingons case because they already had one change, and the defence of that change is that that's different.
Is there any record of what the reaction was when they switched to the rubber forehead design in the first place? I was too young to know, but I doubt it was unanimous approval.
We can agree to disagree about which is the best, you are entitled to your opinion (even when it's so egregiously wrong) My more underlying point was, why? What did it accomplish, especially with such a well established race? I grew up with movies/TNG era Klingons, and looking back at TOS era, SOME kind of change was needed, if at the least for the reason listed by Croaker.
We can agree to disagree about which is the best, you are entitled to your opinion (even when it's so egregiously wrong) My more underlying point was, why? What did it accomplish, especially with such a well established race? I grew up with movies/TNG era Klingons, and looking back at TOS era, SOME kind of change was needed, if at the least for the reason listed by Croaker.
I mentioned this in response to klemming but I had misread his post, so I deleted it. I'll reiterate it here: When I see a TNG era Klingon, there's too much face exposed. It's blatantly obvious that it's a human actor in a prosthetic. Now, I accept this because 1. It's a 30+ year old design limited by technology and money and 2. I can suspend my disbelief.
I liked the redesign because it made them feel truly alien for the first time in forever. I don't see the actor under the makeup. Even the dental prosthetics add to this as the alterations to the way they talk also make them sound different than the average human, which helps.
Now, with all that said, I need to repeat my point that this redesign would have been better served in a complete reboot rather than a prequel. Especially one taking place in an era where we know what the Klingons look like, so you can't even pull a cheap Enterprise move to explain the difference. Additionally, my complaints about the Klingon's apply to damn near every alien race that makes common appearances in Star Trek, so doing that for the Klingons, but leaving, say, the Vulcans as pointy eared humans with weird eyebrows just makes the whole exercise seem pointless.
It feels to me like it's just complaining about change, which is particularly good in the Klingons case because they already had one change, and the defence of that change is that that's different.
Is there any record of what the reaction was when they switched to the rubber forehead design in the first place? I was too young to know, but I doubt it was unanimous approval.
They actually did justify their change for Discovery by pointing out the design had changed once before. I’ve no idea what the response was, although knowing nerds’ general response to minor alterations to their beloved franchises I’m sure it was nothing but universal praise. For me the difference is that the TOS series had very little in the way of facial prosthetics for their aliens, make up technology would (I assume without actually looking it up admittedly) make it too expensive for a TV series. While there was a period of refinement of the concept between TMP and TNG, by the time they made Michael Dorn’s make up they essentially finalised the design for the Klingons for the next 30 years across every Star Trek movie and all 4 series from TNG onwards.
Changing the Klingon design, much like so many of Discovery’s decision to change all the aesthetics of quite a well established time period in Star Trek is, I mean disrespectful sounds kind of hyperbolic, but they open themselves to so many continuity issues tying themselves to an established time period and races and then changing everything about them. Wasn’t the justification for Kirk never using the holographic comms system from Discovery that it crashed the Enterprise’s computers so Pike took it out, and then I guess no-one mentioned anything about that technology ever again until a much more limited version showed up for one episode of DS9.
It’s funny after the complaints Enterprise received during its run for making their version of the Enterprise look much too high tech, looking back the bridge set did look like a somewhat plausible midpoint between modern tech and the TOS bridge. Thinking specifically about alien redesigns, they added animatronics to the antennae of the Andorians but otherwise pretty much left the design as it had been all the way back in TOS. The big redesign they did was the Tellarites, who were a one off race with a terribly fitted mask in TOS and were made into a pretty unique species who’s makeup the actors were actually able to emote through.
All that’s to say there have been alien races that have been redesigned and it’s worked well, but Discovery seemed to update all the aliens (except the Vulcans oddly) to make them extra alien looking seemingly just because they could, and without much care for how difficult their designs would be to act in. It’s already been mentioned how rubbery the Disco-Klingons look and just how little the actors can emote through so much make up, but their redesigned Tellarites I’m not even sure could speak with how huge the tusks are. (Haven’t seen season three so I do my know if you see one beyond a background extra there)
Holy wow, check this out: I went looking to see if there were in fact some record of fan reaction to the TMP redesign of Klingons. I haven’t found it yet, but I did find this:
According to Michael and Denise Okuda, the two men "reportedly joked that the difference was because only 'southern' Klingons were seen in the original series, but those seen in the movies were 'northern' Klingons." (Star Trek Chronology (2nd ed., p. 80)) Despite this, the transformation continued to be regarded as a mystery, and would not be addressed onscreen, for decades to come.
Now, if you’ll remember, in Picard, there’s a throwaway bit of banter between the two Romulans who came to live with Jean-Luc, in which Laris attributes Zhaban’s TNG-style head ridges to his being “a Northerner”.
This fandom is a gift. What a wonderful little thing to find on a Friday.
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JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
I really liked that little bit in Picard. The thing is, if you're going to take that (completely valid) approach and go "actually, these are just different phenotypes or subspecies or maybe even a different kind of people altogether, just from the same planet and culture" you should probably have more than one kind on display. I don't think almost anyone would have complained nearly as much about the Disco Klingons if they'd been mixed in with movie/TNG Klingons and some new less cringey take on the TOS Klingons.
Holy wow, check this out: I went looking to see if there were in fact some record of fan reaction to the TMP redesign of Klingons. I haven’t found it yet, but I did find this:
According to Michael and Denise Okuda, the two men "reportedly joked that the difference was because only 'southern' Klingons were seen in the original series, but those seen in the movies were 'northern' Klingons." (Star Trek Chronology (2nd ed., p. 80)) Despite this, the transformation continued to be regarded as a mystery, and would not be addressed onscreen, for decades to come.
Now, if you’ll remember, in Picard, there’s a throwaway bit of banter between the two Romulans who came to live with Jean-Luc, in which Laris attributes Zhaban’s TNG-style head ridges to his being “a Northerner”.
This fandom is a gift. What a wonderful little thing to find on a Friday.
There's a difference between updating an existing design and a full blown redesign. The Andorian update in Enterprise is a good example, its a pretty significant update to the old design without materially changing the design. Same goes with the Tellarites, you can tell by looking at them they're the same species as the Tellarites/Andorians from TOS.
Memory Alpha conveniently had shots of both species from both series:
TOS:
Enterprise:
The Discovery Klingons though? When I first saw them I thought they were a retcon like the Remans (I dont think they existed before Nemesis?), maybe some old or long lost sect of Klingons but then nope thats just how they look. They could have stuck with the Abrams Trek Klingons which while not really on screen all that much seemed like more of an update of the Klingon design than an actual redesign.
If Worf shows up in Picard, is he going to look like Worf or is he going to look like a Discovery Klingon? Curious to see what Klingons Strange New Worlds uses.
Also people complained about the NX-Enterprise being too high tech? While not surprising, its been forever since I've seen the show and I remember it seeming more like a submarine which really seems to fit. Although its not even their first warp ship, its their first warp 5 ship and their pilot grew up in space so it should look a little tech'd out?
For whatever reason the tech in Discovery being higher end than TOS doesnt bother me (although I did note the holo communicator since that was a fancy new tech in DS9). I assume if (when?) the Enterprise shows up it'll look fancier than the stuff being shown in season 1 of Discovery. Update vs redesign.
If Lower Decks having the TNG era Klingons still makes me very curious how they're going to do Klingons in non-Discovery shows.
I don't think we've seen future-Klingons in Discovery, right? Could be they just wanted the original era Klingons to look different still but didn't want to use the original design.
Also, Undead Scotsman, "truly alien" species have never been a thing in Trek outside of animation and sometimes CGI, for simple and practical reasons. Discovery's experiment in that direction merely demonstrated, IMO, that putting a human actor under that much prosthetics makes it nigh impossible for them to act (or enunciate). Still IMO, it's one of several things they've done (like having a single main character) that were perhaps worth trying, but turned out to be ... I want to say "failures", honestly, but let's go with "not a significant improvement over the more usual way."
If Lower Decks having the TNG era Klingons still makes me very curious how they're going to do Klingons in non-Discovery shows.
I don't think we've seen future-Klingons in Discovery, right? Could be they just wanted the original era Klingons to look different still but didn't want to use the original design.
So Discovery era Klingons + augments = TOS Klingons, TOS Klingons - augments = Worf Klingons? And we just kind of ignore Enterprise?
Also, Undead Scotsman, "truly alien" species have never been a thing in Trek outside of animation and sometimes CGI, for simple and practical reasons. Discovery's experiment in that direction merely demonstrated, IMO, that putting a human actor under that much prosthetics makes it nigh impossible for them to act (or enunciate). Still IMO, it's one of several things they've done (like having a single main character) that were perhaps worth trying, but turned out to be ... I want to say "failures", honestly, but let's go with "not a significant improvement over the more usual way."
I watch everything with subtitles already so the different ennounciation just reads as an alien trait to me. I never had a problem with their emoting or acting at all.
I feel like I'm having to repeat myself a lot, am I just not explaining my take on things clearly? I know Star Trek hasn't been very "alien" in the past for their recurring speices. I literally pointed that out in an earlier post. It's specifically why I liked the Klingon redesign.
Also the Kelvin style, which are a bit more over designed than the TNG style but stopping far short of Discovery. Aside from the Kelvin incursion mission I think the only time you see them are the various trips to Grethor Klingon characters keep making.
And some unholy hybrids. Aakar (and his BeH puqloD minions) was kind of an inspired design, just a whole jumble of different Klingon types shoved together into a bug eyed mess of genocidal nonsense.
Just to present the viewpoint that maybe we people talking about it on an internet forum dedicated to the subject are all just a little too dialled into this to judge, my mother is the definition of a casual viewer (she watched TNG when it was on TV, has probably seen all the movies at some point, knows enough DS9 and Voyager to recognise the characters but that's about it).
She's watched Discovery, and her reaction was 'they're Klingons'. That's it. Like, that's all the time she spent concerned with it.
She's had a harder time with the idea of this Pike guy being captain of the Enterprise, because she doesn't have recall of a two parter and failed pilot of a show she may not have actually watched but if she did it was multiple decades ago.
In the same vein as Terry Pratchett's explanation for certain people being out of character in earlier books ("They're the same character, but written by a younger and less experienced author"), I think they should just say "we had a make-up budget that made the old shows look like they had pocket change" and be done with it.
I honestly wonder if the Disco designs were because it was the era of TOS Klingons (which were unfortunately canonized by DS9 and Enterprise as being an actual thing rather than just a design change) and having to choose between going with the canonically correct original designs or the more recognizable TNG designs just caused them to blow a gasket, so to speak.
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That_GuyI don't wanna be that guyRegistered Userregular
Also, Undead Scotsman, "truly alien" species have never been a thing in Trek outside of animation and sometimes CGI, for simple and practical reasons. Discovery's experiment in that direction merely demonstrated, IMO, that putting a human actor under that much prosthetics makes it nigh impossible for them to act (or enunciate). Still IMO, it's one of several things they've done (like having a single main character) that were perhaps worth trying, but turned out to be ... I want to say "failures", honestly, but let's go with "not a significant improvement over the more usual way."
If Lower Decks having the TNG era Klingons still makes me very curious how they're going to do Klingons in non-Discovery shows.
I don't think we've seen future-Klingons in Discovery, right? Could be they just wanted the original era Klingons to look different still but didn't want to use the original design.
So Discovery era Klingons + augments = TOS Klingons, TOS Klingons - augments = Worf Klingons? And we just kind of ignore Enterprise?
I don't usually consider most holodeck programs to be canon to the main universe.
Also, Undead Scotsman, "truly alien" species have never been a thing in Trek outside of animation and sometimes CGI, for simple and practical reasons. Discovery's experiment in that direction merely demonstrated, IMO, that putting a human actor under that much prosthetics makes it nigh impossible for them to act (or enunciate). Still IMO, it's one of several things they've done (like having a single main character) that were perhaps worth trying, but turned out to be ... I want to say "failures", honestly, but let's go with "not a significant improvement over the more usual way."
I watch everything with subtitles already so the different ennounciation just reads as an alien trait to me. I never had a problem with their emoting or acting at all.
So you don't particularly care whether the actors are able to deliver their lines intelligibly, because it doesn't affect you either way? :?
Also, Undead Scotsman, "truly alien" species have never been a thing in Trek outside of animation and sometimes CGI, for simple and practical reasons. Discovery's experiment in that direction merely demonstrated, IMO, that putting a human actor under that much prosthetics makes it nigh impossible for them to act (or enunciate). Still IMO, it's one of several things they've done (like having a single main character) that were perhaps worth trying, but turned out to be ... I want to say "failures", honestly, but let's go with "not a significant improvement over the more usual way."
I watch everything with subtitles already so the different ennounciation just reads as an alien trait to me. I never had a problem with their emoting or acting at all.
So you don't particularly care whether the actors are able to deliver their lines intelligibly, because it doesn't affect you either way? :?
I don't understand english 100% of the time despite it being my only spoken langauge. I have trouble with many accents on top of this. The Klingons in discovery didn't even rate as unintelligible to me on that scale. As I said, it's just becomes a trait to me.
I already mentioned my opinion is probably in the minority, what are you wanting me to say here?
My problem with the Disco Klingons was that whenever they spoke it the actors had to speak slowly lest they either sound like giberish or bit their own tongue off. Those teeth where the real downfall of the update. That and having them talk in Klingon, which is a language that nobody outside of really die hard trekkies understand and forcing the rest of us to read subtitles.
It caused T'Kuvma to become a 1D villain, because he had to speak in what was essentially baby speak Klingon.(Klingon being a artificial language and having a limited vocabulary as a result not helping). The pilot would have been longer than the Hobbit movie trilogy if he tried to monologue like the Klingons in the TOS/TNG era did.
They made their faces immobile, gave them permanent retainers on their teeth and forced them to speak a language none of the actors knew. Then they tried to have them communicate a Cultural counterargument to the Federation. Something that has been done before, the Root beer scene in DS9 is a prime example, but it was set up to fail due to the update.
The sky was full of stars, every star an exploding ship. One of ours.
Also, Undead Scotsman, "truly alien" species have never been a thing in Trek outside of animation and sometimes CGI, for simple and practical reasons. Discovery's experiment in that direction merely demonstrated, IMO, that putting a human actor under that much prosthetics makes it nigh impossible for them to act (or enunciate). Still IMO, it's one of several things they've done (like having a single main character) that were perhaps worth trying, but turned out to be ... I want to say "failures", honestly, but let's go with "not a significant improvement over the more usual way."
I watch everything with subtitles already so the different ennounciation just reads as an alien trait to me. I never had a problem with their emoting or acting at all.
So you don't particularly care whether the actors are able to deliver their lines intelligibly, because it doesn't affect you either way? :?
I don't understand english 100% of the time despite it being my only spoken langauge. I have trouble with many accents on top of this. The Klingons in discovery didn't even rate as unintelligible to me on that scale. As I said, it's just becomes a trait to me.
I already mentioned my opinion is probably in the minority, what are you wanting me to say here?
Eh, that'll do.
Especially since, based on that snip of S4e1 posted above, I think I'm finally completely done with Discovery. They've had some good bits here and there, but overall they seem to show no interest in changing a formula that apparently works for them, and their audience, but not for me.
I still have hopes for Strange New Worlds... and if that doesn't work out, I guess there's always Lower Decks.
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That makes it look so much it has a voiceover of "welcome to Enterprise on CNN, I'm Christopher Pike!"
Except they don't? They look more rubber forehead alien than ever. Like that's sort of the thing, the prostheses by the era of DS9 were incredibly well thought out, with ones specifically made to allow the actors to... well... act. Then you fast forward to disco and it's the most obviously rubber forehead thing since, well, 30+ years ago? It's like saying "well, Dalek's are a product of their area, so we should redesign them". You'd be wrong there too. Besides, Klingon's already got a very solid redesign in the 80's, they really don't need another.
That the whole thing was in service of that "tweest".
I'm not sure which would be worse/more sad, that or simply doing it "because we can"/"we want to be Different for the sake of being Different" (when the biggest thing the show has going for it is being part of an established, familiar franchise).
I don't know if this is overly predictable writing, or I'm just getting better at predicting it.
I did like Holo Janeway trying to problem solve: "What would the real Janeway do? Ah yes, destroy everything that opposes her!"
Also, I assume that it's mostly thanks to this thread title that I immediately started thinking "Baby Star doo-doo-doo-doo-doo-doo, Baby Star doo-doo-doo-doo".
It's still a bad name for the ship, though. It's like calling Discovery the USS Spore.
I really want that Holo Janeway bit to be a meme
Wait until (assuming you watch this far) they
It’s certainly a choice that was made!
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You're basically speaking greek to me. I had none of these issues with the Discovery Klingons. I'm probably in the minority there, but whatever.
And then they blew up a planet because we need a GALAXY-EATING THREAT OF THE SEASON and I said "Aww FOR FUCKS' SAKE" out loud.
Short version, NuKlingons didn't look more alien, they look like they were wearing bigger/thicker masks. Honestly, they looked more like a random villain of the week race that was done quickly to save money.
1. Predictable.
2. Mood.
Sorry, I should have said "I understand the words, but not in that order" as my facetious comment (Or just not done a facetious comment, of course). I understand what you're saying, I just do not agree with it. I think the Discovery Klingon makeup looks better than the originals and I had none of the issues you've had with them.
Also the “original” Klingons were horrifying orientalist stereotypes, so there’s that.
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Is there any record of what the reaction was when they switched to the rubber forehead design in the first place? I was too young to know, but I doubt it was unanimous approval.
I mentioned this in response to klemming but I had misread his post, so I deleted it. I'll reiterate it here: When I see a TNG era Klingon, there's too much face exposed. It's blatantly obvious that it's a human actor in a prosthetic. Now, I accept this because 1. It's a 30+ year old design limited by technology and money and 2. I can suspend my disbelief.
I liked the redesign because it made them feel truly alien for the first time in forever. I don't see the actor under the makeup. Even the dental prosthetics add to this as the alterations to the way they talk also make them sound different than the average human, which helps.
Now, with all that said, I need to repeat my point that this redesign would have been better served in a complete reboot rather than a prequel. Especially one taking place in an era where we know what the Klingons look like, so you can't even pull a cheap Enterprise move to explain the difference. Additionally, my complaints about the Klingon's apply to damn near every alien race that makes common appearances in Star Trek, so doing that for the Klingons, but leaving, say, the Vulcans as pointy eared humans with weird eyebrows just makes the whole exercise seem pointless.
They actually did justify their change for Discovery by pointing out the design had changed once before. I’ve no idea what the response was, although knowing nerds’ general response to minor alterations to their beloved franchises I’m sure it was nothing but universal praise. For me the difference is that the TOS series had very little in the way of facial prosthetics for their aliens, make up technology would (I assume without actually looking it up admittedly) make it too expensive for a TV series. While there was a period of refinement of the concept between TMP and TNG, by the time they made Michael Dorn’s make up they essentially finalised the design for the Klingons for the next 30 years across every Star Trek movie and all 4 series from TNG onwards.
Changing the Klingon design, much like so many of Discovery’s decision to change all the aesthetics of quite a well established time period in Star Trek is, I mean disrespectful sounds kind of hyperbolic, but they open themselves to so many continuity issues tying themselves to an established time period and races and then changing everything about them. Wasn’t the justification for Kirk never using the holographic comms system from Discovery that it crashed the Enterprise’s computers so Pike took it out, and then I guess no-one mentioned anything about that technology ever again until a much more limited version showed up for one episode of DS9.
It’s funny after the complaints Enterprise received during its run for making their version of the Enterprise look much too high tech, looking back the bridge set did look like a somewhat plausible midpoint between modern tech and the TOS bridge. Thinking specifically about alien redesigns, they added animatronics to the antennae of the Andorians but otherwise pretty much left the design as it had been all the way back in TOS. The big redesign they did was the Tellarites, who were a one off race with a terribly fitted mask in TOS and were made into a pretty unique species who’s makeup the actors were actually able to emote through.
All that’s to say there have been alien races that have been redesigned and it’s worked well, but Discovery seemed to update all the aliens (except the Vulcans oddly) to make them extra alien looking seemingly just because they could, and without much care for how difficult their designs would be to act in. It’s already been mentioned how rubbery the Disco-Klingons look and just how little the actors can emote through so much make up, but their redesigned Tellarites I’m not even sure could speak with how huge the tusks are. (Haven’t seen season three so I do my know if you see one beyond a background extra there)
Now, if you’ll remember, in Picard, there’s a throwaway bit of banter between the two Romulans who came to live with Jean-Luc, in which Laris attributes Zhaban’s TNG-style head ridges to his being “a Northerner”.
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"Lots of planets have a North!"
Memory Alpha conveniently had shots of both species from both series:
TOS:
Enterprise:
The Discovery Klingons though? When I first saw them I thought they were a retcon like the Remans (I dont think they existed before Nemesis?), maybe some old or long lost sect of Klingons but then nope thats just how they look. They could have stuck with the Abrams Trek Klingons which while not really on screen all that much seemed like more of an update of the Klingon design than an actual redesign.
If Worf shows up in Picard, is he going to look like Worf or is he going to look like a Discovery Klingon? Curious to see what Klingons Strange New Worlds uses.
Also people complained about the NX-Enterprise being too high tech? While not surprising, its been forever since I've seen the show and I remember it seeming more like a submarine which really seems to fit. Although its not even their first warp ship, its their first warp 5 ship and their pilot grew up in space so it should look a little tech'd out?
For whatever reason the tech in Discovery being higher end than TOS doesnt bother me (although I did note the holo communicator since that was a fancy new tech in DS9). I assume if (when?) the Enterprise shows up it'll look fancier than the stuff being shown in season 1 of Discovery. Update vs redesign.
At 2:30 below. But man I watched it all. Such a great episode.
I don't think we've seen future-Klingons in Discovery, right? Could be they just wanted the original era Klingons to look different still but didn't want to use the original design.
Also, Undead Scotsman, "truly alien" species have never been a thing in Trek outside of animation and sometimes CGI, for simple and practical reasons. Discovery's experiment in that direction merely demonstrated, IMO, that putting a human actor under that much prosthetics makes it nigh impossible for them to act (or enunciate). Still IMO, it's one of several things they've done (like having a single main character) that were perhaps worth trying, but turned out to be ... I want to say "failures", honestly, but let's go with "not a significant improvement over the more usual way."
So Discovery era Klingons + augments = TOS Klingons, TOS Klingons - augments = Worf Klingons? And we just kind of ignore Enterprise?
I watch everything with subtitles already so the different ennounciation just reads as an alien trait to me. I never had a problem with their emoting or acting at all.
I feel like I'm having to repeat myself a lot, am I just not explaining my take on things clearly? I know Star Trek hasn't been very "alien" in the past for their recurring speices. I literally pointed that out in an earlier post. It's specifically why I liked the Klingon redesign.
Also the Kelvin style, which are a bit more over designed than the TNG style but stopping far short of Discovery. Aside from the Kelvin incursion mission I think the only time you see them are the various trips to Grethor Klingon characters keep making.
And some unholy hybrids. Aakar (and his BeH puqloD minions) was kind of an inspired design, just a whole jumble of different Klingon types shoved together into a bug eyed mess of genocidal nonsense.
She's watched Discovery, and her reaction was 'they're Klingons'. That's it. Like, that's all the time she spent concerned with it.
She's had a harder time with the idea of this Pike guy being captain of the Enterprise, because she doesn't have recall of a two parter and failed pilot of a show she may not have actually watched but if she did it was multiple decades ago.
In the same vein as Terry Pratchett's explanation for certain people being out of character in earlier books ("They're the same character, but written by a younger and less experienced author"), I think they should just say "we had a make-up budget that made the old shows look like they had pocket change" and be done with it.
The Tholians and Horta would like to have a word.
I don't usually consider most holodeck programs to be canon to the main universe.
So you don't particularly care whether the actors are able to deliver their lines intelligibly, because it doesn't affect you either way? :?
I don't understand english 100% of the time despite it being my only spoken langauge. I have trouble with many accents on top of this. The Klingons in discovery didn't even rate as unintelligible to me on that scale. As I said, it's just becomes a trait to me.
I already mentioned my opinion is probably in the minority, what are you wanting me to say here?
It caused T'Kuvma to become a 1D villain, because he had to speak in what was essentially baby speak Klingon.(Klingon being a artificial language and having a limited vocabulary as a result not helping). The pilot would have been longer than the Hobbit movie trilogy if he tried to monologue like the Klingons in the TOS/TNG era did.
They made their faces immobile, gave them permanent retainers on their teeth and forced them to speak a language none of the actors knew. Then they tried to have them communicate a Cultural counterargument to the Federation. Something that has been done before, the Root beer scene in DS9 is a prime example, but it was set up to fail due to the update.
Eh, that'll do.
Especially since, based on that snip of S4e1 posted above, I think I'm finally completely done with Discovery. They've had some good bits here and there, but overall they seem to show no interest in changing a formula that apparently works for them, and their audience, but not for me.
I still have hopes for Strange New Worlds... and if that doesn't work out, I guess there's always Lower Decks.