I don't have KSM yet, but a few in my guild do and I think their story is similar. They've got keys in the 17's, 18's, 19's for other dungeons, and then their keys for Lower Kara are like a +15 that was way over time by like 20 minutes or something.
As I see it, Lower Kara actually has two problems working simultaneously.
1) The tuning is wrong, and the dungeon is just generally much more difficult than any of the rest of the pool. Bosses are harder, trash is deadlier, everything about Lower Kara is just not tuned to the same difficulty curve as everywhere else.
2) The dungeon requires way too much trash for that dungeon to ever be considered fun. Even if they fix the tuning, groups are still spending way too much time clearing trash. Kara, even dating back to TBC when it was a 10man raid, had an enormous amount of trash. Probably near the top of all time highest trash counts of any dungeon ever. But most of it was skippable. You could leave entire rooms completely full of trash. But in M+ with a required trash counter, they just force us to clear way too much. They need to reduce the overall dungeon trash meter by as much as 50%. Not being hyperbolic. I think a 50% reduction is the starting point for how much mandatory trash clearing they need to do.
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admanbunionize your workplaceSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
The problem with Lower Kara is that all the boomer-ass M+ players couldn't stop talking about how much better Legion dungeons were than SL dungeons for M+, so they pulled it in as-is and we all suffer for it.
It’s tough because if you design lower Kara with a trash count comparable to what’s actually needed to kill all the bosses you’d wind up imposing a lot of ‘meta’ knowledge requirements on groups running it (stuff like suiciding after opera to go back and use the skip, etc). I think they’re probably rightly hesitant to do that.
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with a dungeon having a high trash count as long as they provide time to clear it, it just presents a problem in lower Kara because it’s not very linear so you don’t get a good sense of how far along you are.
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
The problem with Lower Kara is that all the boomer-ass M+ players couldn't stop talking about how much better Legion dungeons were than SL dungeons for M+, so they pulled it in as-is and we all suffer for it.
WoD dungeons are even more boomer and Grimrail Depot was actually voted into the rotation: "Now that we've wiped five times to the camera boss and ruined the key, are you ready to go back to farming gold missions on your Garrison table, Grandpa?"
It’s tough because if you design lower Kara with a trash count comparable to what’s actually needed to kill all the bosses you’d wind up imposing a lot of ‘meta’ knowledge requirements on groups running it (stuff like suiciding after opera to go back and use the skip, etc). I think they’re probably rightly hesitant to do that.
I mean they could also reduce the amount of trash in there along with lowering the counter.
Of course getting rid of trash is blasphemy to an MMO dev, so can't have that.
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admanbunionize your workplaceSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
They removed a bunch of trash from Streets shortly after the start of S3.
Grimrail Depot was absolutely not designed for all the extra mechanics of M+ and it shows. It's a real square peg and round hole situation. The fact that it's easier than Lower Kara is really just a tuning thing, but the actual physical design of the place is horrible for M+.
On a related note, playing a race with a larger character model is permanent hard mode in WoW.
On a related note, playing a race with a larger character model is permanent hard mode in WoW.
I see you haven't run into the "every other player just walks here but my character has to jump or fucking swim (!!) instead" that i run into with my gnome all the time.
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admanbunionize your workplaceSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
On a related note, playing a race with a larger character model is permanent hard mode in WoW.
I see you haven't run into the "every other player just walks here but my character has to jump or fucking swim (!!) instead" that i run into with my gnome all the time.
My DK is a goblin which meant that sometimes rounding up all the birds in the water section of De Other Side was spicy.
oh also with that big trash mob before the lift in Streets that binds two players together and if you run into each other you explode, normal sized casters can just stand behind the low wall and blast the mob, but my Vulpera Mage cannot
The problem with Lower Kara is that all the boomer-ass M+ players couldn't stop talking about how much better Legion dungeons were than SL dungeons for M+, so they pulled it in as-is and we all suffer for it.
The thing is when they say this, they’re specifically referring to Maw of Souls and ONLY Maw of Souls.
Grimrail Depot was absolutely not designed for all the extra mechanics of M+ and it shows. It's a real square peg and round hole situation. The fact that it's easier than Lower Kara is really just a tuning thing, but the actual physical design of the place is horrible for M+.
On a related note, playing a race with a larger character model is permanent hard mode in WoW.
Yeah, if you ask me, Auchindoun would have been a better choice. I can’t wrap my head around people CHOOSING Grimrail. Everyone hated it when it was relevant.
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
Lower was one of the easiest dungeons by quite a margin in Legion. It's just that six years of mechanic evolution makes it very unlikely they wouldn't need heavy adjustments.
Personally I want to see some of the *really* old school dungeons show up. Of course the need for a graphics overhaul on top of a design update would make it a chore to develop, but still.
Personally I want to see some of the *really* old school dungeons show up. Of course the need for a graphics overhaul on top of a design update would make it a chore to develop, but still.
I say make people do tribute runs of Dire Maul on Mythic+
Personally I want to see some of the *really* old school dungeons show up. Of course the need for a graphics overhaul on top of a design update would make it a chore to develop, but still.
I say make people do tribute runs of Dire Maul on Mythic+
You have to bring the random vanilla leather and cooking food and whatever if you want to not be penalized on time
Personally I want to see some of the *really* old school dungeons show up. Of course the need for a graphics overhaul on top of a design update would make it a chore to develop, but still.
They're reworking Uldaman for exactly this reason. I know we've discussed this before. People's alpha impressions about Uldaman 2.0 are less than enthusiastic. But Blizzard does appear to be making an effort to modernize some of their older dungeons. Hopefully they make Uldaman 2.0 more interesting and fun, and hopefully they are inspired to do other dungeons.
I'd love to see a Deadmines M+, or Scarlet Monastery M+, or Magister's Terrace M+.
Done well, obviously. That should go without saying. I want them to modernize those dungeons for M+ and do it well.
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
On a related note, playing a race with a larger character model is permanent hard mode in WoW.
I see you haven't run into the "every other player just walks here but my character has to jump or fucking swim (!!) instead" that i run into with my gnome all the time.
My DK is a goblin which meant that sometimes rounding up all the birds in the water section of De Other Side was spicy.
oh also with that big trash mob before the lift in Streets that binds two players together and if you run into each other you explode, normal sized casters can just stand behind the low wall and blast the mob, but my Vulpera Mage cannot
I have no end of random LoS errors trying to heal that as a Tauren. The meta way of doing that pull is super annoying.
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admanbunionize your workplaceSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
On a related note, playing a race with a larger character model is permanent hard mode in WoW.
I see you haven't run into the "every other player just walks here but my character has to jump or fucking swim (!!) instead" that i run into with my gnome all the time.
My DK is a goblin which meant that sometimes rounding up all the birds in the water section of De Other Side was spicy.
oh also with that big trash mob before the lift in Streets that binds two players together and if you run into each other you explode, normal sized casters can just stand behind the low wall and blast the mob, but my Vulpera Mage cannot
I have no end of random LoS errors trying to heal that as a Tauren. The meta way of doing that pull is super annoying.
oh yeah healing's a different beast because the mob is pretty tall but most players aren't
the trick is to just run with BDKs because they don't need healing in that pull
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
On a related note, playing a race with a larger character model is permanent hard mode in WoW.
I see you haven't run into the "every other player just walks here but my character has to jump or fucking swim (!!) instead" that i run into with my gnome all the time.
An annoyance for sure, but rarely as brutal as missing crucial mechanics behind a fat ass in front of the camera.
Ever since I started tanking M+ as a Blood DK I've been running into healers that I have to assume just think that they don't have to do anything. It makes it incredible hectic and not very fun having to try and spam out Heart/Death strikes to stay alive and not having runes available for defensives. I had a priest yesterday who used Renew twice in the entire dungeon, didn't use the AoE Holy Word heal, or Prayer of Mending, and I'm pretty sure they never used Shield either. Starting a pull without any Runic Power was pretty much a scramble to keep up in health as I was constantly dropping to 50% and having to Death Strike it back while trying to conserve runes and power for other things.
Also had a shaman bitch about my damage after the first boss in Workshop because it was too low according to them, guess they don't know that the one boss has a 99% dmg reduction /forehead. Instant mute for the rest of the dungeon.
Because if you're going to attempt to squeeze that big black monster into your slot you will need to be able to take at least 12 inches or else you're going to have a bad time...
What key level? In my experience, BDKs are generally expected to take care of most of their self healing while the healer keeps the DPS alive.
For the most part yup. That's assuming they know when to death strike or whatever it is for max self-healing.
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admanbunionize your workplaceSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
Not using Renew or PW:S is correct (Renew is terrible mana efficiency and not better single-target healing than Flash Heal/Heal spam, PW:S is useless for Holy) and BDK's do indeed get significantly less spot healing as a core concept.
But not using Prayer of Mending or Holy Word: Sanctify is very very bad.
Ever since I started tanking M+ as a Blood DK I've been running into healers that I have to assume just think that they don't have to do anything. It makes it incredible hectic and not very fun having to try and spam out Heart/Death strikes to stay alive and not having runes available for defensives. I had a priest yesterday who used Renew twice in the entire dungeon, didn't use the AoE Holy Word heal, or Prayer of Mending, and I'm pretty sure they never used Shield either. Starting a pull without any Runic Power was pretty much a scramble to keep up in health as I was constantly dropping to 50% and having to Death Strike it back while trying to conserve runes and power for other things.
This is kind of something you have to get used to, especially on Fortified. The opening of a pull when you don't have DRW with capped stacks from the tier set is very dangerous as a BDK and you'll take so much damage so fast you pretty much have to take your life into your own hands.
Also had a shaman bitch about my damage after the first boss in Workshop because it was too low according to them, guess they don't know that the one boss has a 99% dmg reduction /forehead. Instant mute for the rest of the dungeon.
What would be the optimal rotation on a pull when DRW is on cooldown and I'm starting with low runic power? Typically I would open with D&D as I run in, Heart Strike x2 to build power, then Death Strike if needed. Sometimes I'm finding that I can get that far into rotation and I'm having to then spam all my cooldowns to stay alive, and if I am doing that I'm waiting on global cooldowns before I can Heart Strike 2-3 more times for runic power. If I have DRW available then I almost never have issues, just feels like some healers aren't being proactive enough which leads to extremely stressful pulls.
Because if you're going to attempt to squeeze that big black monster into your slot you will need to be able to take at least 12 inches or else you're going to have a bad time...
Well assuming you are still capped on bone shield, you should probably just hit a cooldown as soon as you get into melee.
You should also be trying to pool runic power at a pull end to use on the next pack.
At some point if you are really just out of resources then you're out of resources, you can't make more survivability out of thin air. I think AOE heart strike is the fastest RP generation maybe but I only really play on Dragonflight alpha rn, not sure about the nuances of Shadowlands 9.4.
Vontre on
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admanbunionize your workplaceSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
If DRW is down and on cooldown I would hit Vampiric Blood or Icebound Fortitude as soon as the pull starts, basically on the first oGCD after you're in melee. You could also Rune Tap if it's a particularly rough pull to start, but Rune Tap is generally bad.
The more accurate and less helpful answer is that you should usually have DRW available when you start a pull. With Tombstone and the DRW legendary the actual cooldown of DRW is very short. If you hit DRW, keep Bone Shield up, and start a pull that lasts 30 seconds, DRW will be back up before the pull ends*. Now, what's probably happening is that your pulls aren't lasting long enough due to high DPS and low mob health, so you might want to start trying to chain pulls together when you can to take advantage of the DRW duration extension from the tier set. Using Tombstone on CD (with DRW up so you can instantly re-cap your Bone Shield charges) helps.
*DRW CD reduces by 5 seconds every time a Bone Shield charge is consumed, which has an internal cooldown of 2s. So 30/2*5=75s of CD reduction, plus the 30s the pull lasts = 105s of CD reduction
Thanks, I'll give that a try. I tend to stay on top of using Tombstone but usually hold off on Fortitude and Vampiric until I'm in trouble. I suppose with the short cooldowns of those abilities it is better to use the proactively.
Because if you're going to attempt to squeeze that big black monster into your slot you will need to be able to take at least 12 inches or else you're going to have a bad time...
if i were to make a character in shadowlands now would i still have to go through all the crap to get a legendary and get my covenant off the ground or have they tarped all over that for the final tier
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it really is boggling how much they missed on tuning it though, they did do some testing
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
1) The tuning is wrong, and the dungeon is just generally much more difficult than any of the rest of the pool. Bosses are harder, trash is deadlier, everything about Lower Kara is just not tuned to the same difficulty curve as everywhere else.
2) The dungeon requires way too much trash for that dungeon to ever be considered fun. Even if they fix the tuning, groups are still spending way too much time clearing trash. Kara, even dating back to TBC when it was a 10man raid, had an enormous amount of trash. Probably near the top of all time highest trash counts of any dungeon ever. But most of it was skippable. You could leave entire rooms completely full of trash. But in M+ with a required trash counter, they just force us to clear way too much. They need to reduce the overall dungeon trash meter by as much as 50%. Not being hyperbolic. I think a 50% reduction is the starting point for how much mandatory trash clearing they need to do.
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with a dungeon having a high trash count as long as they provide time to clear it, it just presents a problem in lower Kara because it’s not very linear so you don’t get a good sense of how far along you are.
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
WoD dungeons are even more boomer and Grimrail Depot was actually voted into the rotation: "Now that we've wiped five times to the camera boss and ruined the key, are you ready to go back to farming gold missions on your Garrison table, Grandpa?"
JFC I hate the WoW player base sometimes.
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
(Definitely not the right choice for M+ though. I like Docks but there were much better choices than Grimrail for S4.)
Of course getting rid of trash is blasphemy to an MMO dev, so can't have that.
On a related note, playing a race with a larger character model is permanent hard mode in WoW.
I see you haven't run into the "every other player just walks here but my character has to jump or fucking swim (!!) instead" that i run into with my gnome all the time.
My DK is a goblin which meant that sometimes rounding up all the birds in the water section of De Other Side was spicy.
oh also with that big trash mob before the lift in Streets that binds two players together and if you run into each other you explode, normal sized casters can just stand behind the low wall and blast the mob, but my Vulpera Mage cannot
The thing is when they say this, they’re specifically referring to Maw of Souls and ONLY Maw of Souls.
Yeah, if you ask me, Auchindoun would have been a better choice. I can’t wrap my head around people CHOOSING Grimrail. Everyone hated it when it was relevant.
Steam: pazython
I say make people do tribute runs of Dire Maul on Mythic+
Steam: pazython
You have to bring the random vanilla leather and cooking food and whatever if you want to not be penalized on time
They're reworking Uldaman for exactly this reason. I know we've discussed this before. People's alpha impressions about Uldaman 2.0 are less than enthusiastic. But Blizzard does appear to be making an effort to modernize some of their older dungeons. Hopefully they make Uldaman 2.0 more interesting and fun, and hopefully they are inspired to do other dungeons.
I'd love to see a Deadmines M+, or Scarlet Monastery M+, or Magister's Terrace M+.
Done well, obviously. That should go without saying. I want them to modernize those dungeons for M+ and do it well.
pleasepaypreacher.net
Magisters terrace would be a great M+, they'd just need to do a shitton of fuckin work on the PVP fight.
oh yeah healing's a different beast because the mob is pretty tall but most players aren't
the trick is to just run with BDKs because they don't need healing in that pull
Tempest Keep was merely a setback!
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Also had a shaman bitch about my damage after the first boss in Workshop because it was too low according to them, guess they don't know that the one boss has a 99% dmg reduction /forehead. Instant mute for the rest of the dungeon.
For the most part yup. That's assuming they know when to death strike or whatever it is for max self-healing.
But not using Prayer of Mending or Holy Word: Sanctify is very very bad.
This is kind of something you have to get used to, especially on Fortified. The opening of a pull when you don't have DRW with capped stacks from the tier set is very dangerous as a BDK and you'll take so much damage so fast you pretty much have to take your life into your own hands.
That is incredibly stupid.
What would be the optimal rotation on a pull when DRW is on cooldown and I'm starting with low runic power? Typically I would open with D&D as I run in, Heart Strike x2 to build power, then Death Strike if needed. Sometimes I'm finding that I can get that far into rotation and I'm having to then spam all my cooldowns to stay alive, and if I am doing that I'm waiting on global cooldowns before I can Heart Strike 2-3 more times for runic power. If I have DRW available then I almost never have issues, just feels like some healers aren't being proactive enough which leads to extremely stressful pulls.
You should also be trying to pool runic power at a pull end to use on the next pack.
At some point if you are really just out of resources then you're out of resources, you can't make more survivability out of thin air. I think AOE heart strike is the fastest RP generation maybe but I only really play on Dragonflight alpha rn, not sure about the nuances of Shadowlands 9.4.
The more accurate and less helpful answer is that you should usually have DRW available when you start a pull. With Tombstone and the DRW legendary the actual cooldown of DRW is very short. If you hit DRW, keep Bone Shield up, and start a pull that lasts 30 seconds, DRW will be back up before the pull ends*. Now, what's probably happening is that your pulls aren't lasting long enough due to high DPS and low mob health, so you might want to start trying to chain pulls together when you can to take advantage of the DRW duration extension from the tier set. Using Tombstone on CD (with DRW up so you can instantly re-cap your Bone Shield charges) helps.
*DRW CD reduces by 5 seconds every time a Bone Shield charge is consumed, which has an internal cooldown of 2s. So 30/2*5=75s of CD reduction, plus the 30s the pull lasts = 105s of CD reduction