I think they could have solved the problem with why do we need all these people to go to the White Tower if they spent a little more time on what Ta'veren are.
Moraine is definitely on teh quest to find the Dragon but she ALSO is on the quest to win the final war and having the Ta'veren on her side would have been huge. I'd say not explaining how important those 3 are by themselves whether they are the dragon or not is a big failing of the first three episodes.
The problem is the way they've shifted the focus of the narrative. It leads to a lot of weird issues and they never do the work to patch them up. There is zero mention of Taveren at all in the first episode from what I remember. Of much of anything beyond Dragon!Dragon!Dragon! in a way that just comes off as weird because it's never smoothly established so much as just dropped in our laps in the first minute.
In the books:
we don't know exactly what Moraine is even up to and the issue of her searching for the Dragon is not part of the narrative basically at all because she doesn't tell that to anyone. As such the plot is just about "Trollocs are coming to kill you, we gotta get your asses to the Tower so we can be safe".
They do actually mention Ta'veren in the cold open of the first episode. They're heading to Two Rivers because Moiraine said she's heard rumors of 4 Ta'veren there. Which is weird several ways.
But yeah they proceed to not elucidate on that concept at all.
That's before I turned on subtitles so I must have missed it. Especially since she pronounces it wrong :P.
That's an even weirder thing to say though! And even more inexplicable.
Its early still, but whichever ways the writers decided to rewrite the Dragon/One Power stuff to appease Twitter seems to have gutted one of the core narrative tensions out of the story. Whoops *shocked Pikachu face*
All Episodes+pretty vague big theme book stuff
Given the "Its not for you to touch" comment when the Reds capture Logain(presumably). "Anyone of you 4 can be the Dragon, and that is great' tone- it seems to be referred to exclusively as an "and will save the world". They seem to have either redid the whole Siadin/Saidar aspect, the taint, the prophecies, or all of the above.
One of the core conflicts through the all books is that the Dragon is always to be feared as well- if not more so than- seen as salvation. He is doomed to go mad for handling the tainted half of the source. The mark of the dragon on someone's door is akin to a medieval accusation of witchcraft. And the response to "One of you is the dragon" seems to be 'um...okay great', also 'Oh the dragon, um whats that?'
The response to "One of you is the Dragon" is so muted. It'd be like if you pulled 4 kids from a bible camp and told them "One of you is actually God returned about to start Revelations", and they are all just 'I hope someone helps my da milk the cows while I'm gone.'
I'm not a big fan of the changes to Matt and Perrin's backstories, they have all the hallmarks of bad writers doing punch up for more DRAMA!!
Although with the changes to the white cloaks
Books
Is it possible we lose Galad(And maybe Gawyn too?) Shit needs to get cut and honestly they aren't really all that important in the resolution.
With the whitecloaks being played up as even more evil, and the Perrin killing a few of them seemingly skipped, the entire whitecloaks arc is kind of unneeded at all.
And Gawyn was always useless, so easy cut there.
So pluses and minuses, but more of the later I think.
What on earth does appeasing Twitter mean in this context?
I'm pretty sure what they are talking about is a big spoiler from the end of the first book, so I'll spoil it.
I'm assuming they are referencing the whole thing where in the show The Dragon could be a girl too.
Yes I’m aware of this but it’s still a baffling statement
We had this argument in the beginning few pages of the thread but basically. The magic system as written in the books- and by extension the entire nature of the world- is gender essentialist. Its not acceptable to have that in fiction now and thus they are apparently changing it. But the 'yin and yang' gender dichotomy is built into so many of the structures of the world and the whys of the world and characters that by removing that(or at least not engaging with it) they've basically flattened the plot, into a generic "(one of) You is the very special savior of the world"*. They took the story and made it worse, but hey its gender politics are more modern so...yay?
*Book spoilers, nothing specific really plot wise.
That the dragon is a male chaneller who must handle the tainted half of the one power and is thus doomed to eventual madness. Is a constant tension in the books. It informs the entire worlds perspective of the Dragon. None of the 3 male characters want to be the Dragon. The Dragon is something to be feared. Someone to avoid as much as possible, so you aren't near by when he finally cracks and murders everyone near him.
He is Jesus+Doctor Manhattan, destined to return and save the world but also doomed to go insane and do a bunch of murdering. Everyone knows he will at somepoint return and fears that. But all that(along with the all female white tower, the hunting down of false dragons, etc) is tied to the essentialist, binary nature of the one power.
It shouldn't be "You're a wizard Harry", its "You're a wizard Harry, and you a destined to save us from Voldemort and also go insane and kill lots of people"
Its like trying to remake Moby Dick, without violence against animals so @PETA doesn't drag you. Accept that the story doesn't map perfectly onto modern ethos and go from there. Rather than excise a bunch of its ribs, and leave it a blob.
Since we’re on the subject of Ta’veren, I’m wondering if next season (book 2 spoilers)
if this is when Siuan Sanche will be brought in and ta’veren more fully explained. Since the whole reason she went out to the borderlands when the two rivers folk were there was to confirm to Moraine that all three boys were indeed ta’veren - and to take the horn, Mat, and the girls back with her as well - since she had a talent for spotting ta’veren by them having a golden aura around them. With as much as they are leaving out and as quickly as things are moving, that would seem like the best time to do that… and from a place of authority being the Amyrlin herself.
There's some other visual and audio hints in the opening episode start (slight book spoilers regarding how the power feels/works for women, doesn't ruin anything knowing this):
Egwene is told to be strong and trust the river, and at first is struggling against it. But then when she 'surrenders' to it everything is fine like how the One Power is used in the female half.
Its early still, but whichever ways the writers decided to rewrite the Dragon/One Power stuff to appease Twitter seems to have gutted one of the core narrative tensions out of the story. Whoops *shocked Pikachu face*
All Episodes+pretty vague big theme book stuff
Given the "Its not for you to touch" comment when the Reds capture Logain(presumably). "Anyone of you 4 can be the Dragon, and that is great' tone- it seems to be referred to exclusively as an "and will save the world". They seem to have either redid the whole Siadin/Saidar aspect, the taint, the prophecies, or all of the above.
One of the core conflicts through the all books is that the Dragon is always to be feared as well- if not more so than- seen as salvation. He is doomed to go mad for handling the tainted half of the source. The mark of the dragon on someone's door is akin to a medieval accusation of witchcraft. And the response to "One of you is the dragon" seems to be 'um...okay great', also 'Oh the dragon, um whats that?'
The response to "One of you is the Dragon" is so muted. It'd be like if you pulled 4 kids from a bible camp and told them "One of you is actually God returned about to start Revelations", and they are all just 'I hope someone helps my da milk the cows while I'm gone.'
I'm not a big fan of the changes to Matt and Perrin's backstories, they have all the hallmarks of bad writers doing punch up for more DRAMA!!
Although with the changes to the white cloaks
Books
Is it possible we lose Galad(And maybe Gawyn too?) Shit needs to get cut and honestly they aren't really all that important in the resolution.
With the whitecloaks being played up as even more evil, and the Perrin killing a few of them seemingly skipped, the entire whitecloaks arc is kind of unneeded at all.
And Gawyn was always useless, so easy cut there.
So pluses and minuses, but more of the later I think.
What on earth does appeasing Twitter mean in this context?
I'm pretty sure what they are talking about is a big spoiler from the end of the first book, so I'll spoil it.
I'm assuming they are referencing the whole thing where in the show The Dragon could be a girl too.
Yes I’m aware of this but it’s still a baffling statement
We had this argument in the beginning few pages of the thread but basically. The magic system as written in the books- and by extension the entire nature of the world- is gender essentialist. Its not acceptable to have that in fiction now and thus they are apparently changing it. But the 'yin and yang' gender dichotomy is built into so many of the structures of the world and the whys of the world and characters that by removing that(or at least not engaging with it) they've basically flattened the plot, into a generic "(one of) You is the very special savior of the world"*. They took the story and made it worse, but hey its gender politics are more modern so...yay?
*Book spoilers, nothing specific really plot wise.
That the dragon is a male chaneller who must handle the tainted half of the one power and is thus doomed to eventual madness. Is a constant tension in the books. It informs the entire worlds perspective of the Dragon. None of the 3 male characters want to be the Dragon. The Dragon is something to be feared. Someone to avoid as much as possible, so you aren't near by when he finally cracks and murders everyone near him.
He is Jesus+Doctor Manhattan, destined to return and save the world but also doomed to go insane and do a bunch of murdering. Everyone knows he will at somepoint return and fears that. But all that(along with the all female white tower, the hunting down of false dragons, etc) is tied to the essentialist, binary nature of the one power.
It shouldn't be "You're a wizard Harry", its "You're a wizard Harry, and you a destined to save us from Voldemort and also go insane and kill lots of people"
Its like trying to remake Moby Dick, without violence against animals so @PETA doesn't drag you. Accept that the story doesn't map perfectly onto modern ethos and go from there. Rather than excise a bunch of its ribs, and leave it a blob.
As noted in the above discussions, this is mostly about your hangups. You can absolutely make Moby Dick without the whale. It's been done LITERALLY dozens if not hundreds of time. The whale isn't important, the crux of it is the sense of revenge over reason. Just like in this, there are all KINDS of ways you can have the Dragon reborn as a woman and still have things playout, as has been explained upthread a lot. It's also worth remembering that a LOT of the prophecy given in the book is... tricksy wording. That's one of the major thrusts of the entire novel series.
There are problems with this theory that are much more important than "IT HAS TO BE A MAN BECAUSE MEN v WOMEN".
There is nothing that could be considered a hangup to want to have the story be as the author intended. But I know that this perfectly reasonable opinion is not popular here so ill just leave it at that and be on my merry way.
We talked about this before the show dropped bit the issue imo is not so much that they changed something because it's an adaptation and change is fine if it works. It's whether they've really thought through the implications of these changes and how they change both the story and how the story is told.
So far my thoughts are that the way they've shifted the narrative around to accomodate some of these changes is not helping them at all.
I agree with that actually. But I will reserve judgement until further in the season. As they do mention the taint as well as the whole aspect of the chase scene with the beginnings of the madness starting.
Its early still, but whichever ways the writers decided to rewrite the Dragon/One Power stuff to appease Twitter seems to have gutted one of the core narrative tensions out of the story. Whoops *shocked Pikachu face*
All Episodes+pretty vague big theme book stuff
Given the "Its not for you to touch" comment when the Reds capture Logain(presumably). "Anyone of you 4 can be the Dragon, and that is great' tone- it seems to be referred to exclusively as an "and will save the world". They seem to have either redid the whole Siadin/Saidar aspect, the taint, the prophecies, or all of the above.
One of the core conflicts through the all books is that the Dragon is always to be feared as well- if not more so than- seen as salvation. He is doomed to go mad for handling the tainted half of the source. The mark of the dragon on someone's door is akin to a medieval accusation of witchcraft. And the response to "One of you is the dragon" seems to be 'um...okay great', also 'Oh the dragon, um whats that?'
The response to "One of you is the Dragon" is so muted. It'd be like if you pulled 4 kids from a bible camp and told them "One of you is actually God returned about to start Revelations", and they are all just 'I hope someone helps my da milk the cows while I'm gone.'
I'm not a big fan of the changes to Matt and Perrin's backstories, they have all the hallmarks of bad writers doing punch up for more DRAMA!!
Although with the changes to the white cloaks
Books
Is it possible we lose Galad(And maybe Gawyn too?) Shit needs to get cut and honestly they aren't really all that important in the resolution.
With the whitecloaks being played up as even more evil, and the Perrin killing a few of them seemingly skipped, the entire whitecloaks arc is kind of unneeded at all.
And Gawyn was always useless, so easy cut there.
So pluses and minuses, but more of the later I think.
What on earth does appeasing Twitter mean in this context?
I'm pretty sure what they are talking about is a big spoiler from the end of the first book, so I'll spoil it.
I'm assuming they are referencing the whole thing where in the show The Dragon could be a girl too.
Yes I’m aware of this but it’s still a baffling statement
We had this argument in the beginning few pages of the thread but basically. The magic system as written in the books- and by extension the entire nature of the world- is gender essentialist. Its not acceptable to have that in fiction now and thus they are apparently changing it. But the 'yin and yang' gender dichotomy is built into so many of the structures of the world and the whys of the world and characters that by removing that(or at least not engaging with it) they've basically flattened the plot, into a generic "(one of) You is the very special savior of the world"*. They took the story and made it worse, but hey its gender politics are more modern so...yay?
*Book spoilers, nothing specific really plot wise.
That the dragon is a male chaneller who must handle the tainted half of the one power and is thus doomed to eventual madness. Is a constant tension in the books. It informs the entire worlds perspective of the Dragon. None of the 3 male characters want to be the Dragon. The Dragon is something to be feared. Someone to avoid as much as possible, so you aren't near by when he finally cracks and murders everyone near him.
He is Jesus+Doctor Manhattan, destined to return and save the world but also doomed to go insane and do a bunch of murdering. Everyone knows he will at somepoint return and fears that. But all that(along with the all female white tower, the hunting down of false dragons, etc) is tied to the essentialist, binary nature of the one power.
It shouldn't be "You're a wizard Harry", its "You're a wizard Harry, and you a destined to save us from Voldemort and also go insane and kill lots of people"
Its like trying to remake Moby Dick, without violence against animals so @PETA doesn't drag you. Accept that the story doesn't map perfectly onto modern ethos and go from there. Rather than excise a bunch of its ribs, and leave it a blob.
As noted in the above discussions, this is mostly about your hangups. You can absolutely make Moby Dick without the whale. It's been done LITERALLY dozens if not hundreds of time. The whale isn't important, the crux of it is the sense of revenge over reason. Just like in this, there are all KINDS of ways you can have the Dragon reborn as a woman and still have things playout, as has been explained upthread a lot. It's also worth remembering that a LOT of the prophecy given in the book is... tricksy wording. That's one of the major thrusts of the entire novel series.
There are problems with this theory that are much more important than "IT HAS TO BE A MAN BECAUSE MEN v WOMEN".
Sure, but remove the violence and keep the rest of the story the same and it ends up just some guys out on a whale watching tour off Nantucket.
"One of you is the Dragon Reborn" should be a bombshell (to the characters). So far none of them have even engaged with it. But sure if you want to really split hairs, maybe that is just shitty writing outside of the decision to strip away most the in world implications of it and replace them with nothing. Could be I guess.
Now maybe they'll get there. But their need to punch up Matt and Perrin for daytime soap grade drama....doesn't promise much.
Its early still, but whichever ways the writers decided to rewrite the Dragon/One Power stuff to appease Twitter seems to have gutted one of the core narrative tensions out of the story. Whoops *shocked Pikachu face*
All Episodes+pretty vague big theme book stuff
Given the "Its not for you to touch" comment when the Reds capture Logain(presumably). "Anyone of you 4 can be the Dragon, and that is great' tone- it seems to be referred to exclusively as an "and will save the world". They seem to have either redid the whole Siadin/Saidar aspect, the taint, the prophecies, or all of the above.
One of the core conflicts through the all books is that the Dragon is always to be feared as well- if not more so than- seen as salvation. He is doomed to go mad for handling the tainted half of the source. The mark of the dragon on someone's door is akin to a medieval accusation of witchcraft. And the response to "One of you is the dragon" seems to be 'um...okay great', also 'Oh the dragon, um whats that?'
The response to "One of you is the Dragon" is so muted. It'd be like if you pulled 4 kids from a bible camp and told them "One of you is actually God returned about to start Revelations", and they are all just 'I hope someone helps my da milk the cows while I'm gone.'
I'm not a big fan of the changes to Matt and Perrin's backstories, they have all the hallmarks of bad writers doing punch up for more DRAMA!!
Although with the changes to the white cloaks
Books
Is it possible we lose Galad(And maybe Gawyn too?) Shit needs to get cut and honestly they aren't really all that important in the resolution.
With the whitecloaks being played up as even more evil, and the Perrin killing a few of them seemingly skipped, the entire whitecloaks arc is kind of unneeded at all.
And Gawyn was always useless, so easy cut there.
So pluses and minuses, but more of the later I think.
What on earth does appeasing Twitter mean in this context?
I'm pretty sure what they are talking about is a big spoiler from the end of the first book, so I'll spoil it.
I'm assuming they are referencing the whole thing where in the show The Dragon could be a girl too.
Yes I’m aware of this but it’s still a baffling statement
We had this argument in the beginning few pages of the thread but basically. The magic system as written in the books- and by extension the entire nature of the world- is gender essentialist. Its not acceptable to have that in fiction now and thus they are apparently changing it. But the 'yin and yang' gender dichotomy is built into so many of the structures of the world and the whys of the world and characters that by removing that(or at least not engaging with it) they've basically flattened the plot, into a generic "(one of) You is the very special savior of the world"*. They took the story and made it worse, but hey its gender politics are more modern so...yay?
*Book spoilers, nothing specific really plot wise.
That the dragon is a male chaneller who must handle the tainted half of the one power and is thus doomed to eventual madness. Is a constant tension in the books. It informs the entire worlds perspective of the Dragon. None of the 3 male characters want to be the Dragon. The Dragon is something to be feared. Someone to avoid as much as possible, so you aren't near by when he finally cracks and murders everyone near him.
He is Jesus+Doctor Manhattan, destined to return and save the world but also doomed to go insane and do a bunch of murdering. Everyone knows he will at somepoint return and fears that. But all that(along with the all female white tower, the hunting down of false dragons, etc) is tied to the essentialist, binary nature of the one power.
It shouldn't be "You're a wizard Harry", its "You're a wizard Harry, and you a destined to save us from Voldemort and also go insane and kill lots of people"
Its like trying to remake Moby Dick, without violence against animals so @PETA doesn't drag you. Accept that the story doesn't map perfectly onto modern ethos and go from there. Rather than excise a bunch of its ribs, and leave it a blob.
As noted in the above discussions, this is mostly about your hangups. You can absolutely make Moby Dick without the whale. It's been done LITERALLY dozens if not hundreds of time. The whale isn't important, the crux of it is the sense of revenge over reason. Just like in this, there are all KINDS of ways you can have the Dragon reborn as a woman and still have things playout, as has been explained upthread a lot. It's also worth remembering that a LOT of the prophecy given in the book is... tricksy wording. That's one of the major thrusts of the entire novel series.
There are problems with this theory that are much more important than "IT HAS TO BE A MAN BECAUSE MEN v WOMEN".
Sure, but remove the violence and keep the rest of the story the same and it ends up just some guys out on a whale watching tour off Nantucket.
"One of you is the Dragon Reborn" should be a bombshell (to the characters). So far none of them have even engaged with it. But sure if you want to really split hairs, maybe that is just shitty writing outside of the decision to strip away most the in world implications of it and replace them with nothing. Could be I guess.
Now maybe they'll get there. But their need to punch up Matt and Perrin for daytime soap grade drama....doesn't promise much.
I mean, yes, but this isn't what was discussed. I still remember reading this story and feeling like the main trio were just shell shocked reeling from event to event the whole time in the first book almost precisely because of that revelation.
Just watched the 3 animated shorts they have out in the X-Ray feature. As far as I know that's the only place you can see them currently, and even that only works on Fire devices or PC, and it won't even display in HD on my computer because of some HDCP bullshit, and the audio mixing makes the dialog hard to hear and there's no captions option so good fucking job Amazon.
But other than all that they're pretty decent historical bits. You can watch all of them from the latest episode, instead of going through one by apparently.
The first one is about the Breaking of the World. The second, the fall of Manetheren, the 3rd is a bit of Warder history about the greatest Warder/swordsman in history, Jearom.
Though regarding that one
Book 3
It's basically the scene with Hammar lecturing Galad and Gawyn after Mat whups them so I'm worried we won't get that bit in the show. It was such a good moment.
So far I'm overall enjoying the series and ready for more.
A+ on the sets, costumes, and scenery. My wife says it's filmed in the Czech Republic? Man, I need to go there now.
I love love love the Whitecloak's costumes.
The acting has mostly been fine. Rosamund Pike is obviously great, and I loved Thom and the Questioner also. The kids are ok. Nothing spectacular yet. Nothing super cringe worthy.
I agree that the first episode was rushed, the One Of You Is The Dragon Reborn was rushed, and its impact glossed over. The episodes progressively got better though. The third episode was by far my favorite with the whole Rand/Mat inn arc being excellent. The barmaid was wonderful.
There is a metric ton of foreshadowing that I'm going to rewatch to Leopointing.jpg at.
All in all B+ probably so far, looking forward to more.
+4
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IlpalaJust this guy, y'knowTexasRegistered Userregular
I have now seen all three episodes. Liked them well enough. A lot of condensing going on but I don't think they've changed anything too important.
Yes, including the nature of the one power and the prophecy. Like, saidin being tainted and men going mad from touching it is so clearly still a thing, from literally the first two minutes. It has not been explicitly spelled out as such with an expository plot dump, but come on now. I'm pretty sure one of the songs on the soundtrack is even called saidin. And as soon as it becomes clear Rand's the Dragon, IE a man, all that baggage is still gonna be there.
Also I dunno who was complaining about it, but the humor that's there is hitting for me. Enough for a few sensible chuckles. Maybe a shocked laugh at "We'll take turns." "You think she's up for that?" "The wood, Mat."
My favorite character adaptation wise so far is probably Nynaeve, she's just fucking spot on as a force of nature who takes no guff while still being a bit insecure about her position.
FF XIV - Qih'to Furishu (on Siren), Battle.Net - Ilpala#1975
Switch - SW-7373-3669-3011
Fuck Joe Manchin
I think Perrin kinda sucks. I feel like the call sheet just asked for a large lad that could really put a crease in his brow. Mat is well cast, but he looks like he's wandering the wilderness in a well worn bathrobe. Egwene looks pretty close to how I pictured Faile. Rand looks like Eric Forman got some of Captain America's vita rays.
It's not a super likeable cast, but in all fairness, they weren't written as likeable for the most part.
I think Perrin kinda sucks. I feel like the call sheet just asked for a large lad that could really put a crease in his brow. Mat is well cast, but he looks like he's wandering the wilderness in a well worn bathrobe. Egwene looks pretty close to how I pictured Faile. Rand looks like Eric Forman got some of Captain America's vita rays.
It's not a super likeable cast, but in all fairness, they weren't written as likeable for the most part.
Honestly, based on your posting history is there ANYTHING you like?
Josha Stradowski looks so much like Hayden Christensen that now I kinda want them to do a Star Wars Legends show and cast him as Ben Skywalker. Like, holy shit. If he weren't too old, I'd buy that he was Christensen's child.
I think Perrin kinda sucks. I feel like the call sheet just asked for a large lad that could really put a crease in his brow. Mat is well cast, but he looks like he's wandering the wilderness in a well worn bathrobe. Egwene looks pretty close to how I pictured Faile. Rand looks like Eric Forman got some of Captain America's vita rays.
It's not a super likeable cast, but in all fairness, they weren't written as likeable for the most part.
Honestly, based on your posting history is there ANYTHING you like?
Josha Stradowski looks so much like Hayden Christensen that now I kinda want them to do a Star Wars Legends show and cast him as Ben Skywalker. Like, holy shit. If he weren't too old, I'd buy that he was Christensen's child.
I never saw the resemblance until a few days ago after people kept mentioning it and now I can't unsee it.
That is interesting I always thought of Moraine as worldly. She has a regal air but she also would have dirt around her doing what she has done up to the two rivers and on. I think the kids are all largely spot on right now. I am not a fan of the whole inner struggle of Perrin being changed to what happened with his wife but I am not going to lose sleep over it. I want to see what is coming with him more.
I am also not a fan of the changes to Perrin and Mat's Two Rivers life, but I'm open to changing my opinion depending on what they do with those stories in the inevitable flashbacks.
Since we’re on the subject of Ta’veren, I’m wondering if next season (book 2 spoilers)
if this is when Siuan Sanche will be brought in and ta’veren more fully explained. Since the whole reason she went out to the borderlands when the two rivers folk were there was to confirm to Moraine that all three boys were indeed ta’veren - and to take the horn, Mat, and the girls back with her as well - since she had a talent for spotting ta’veren by them having a golden aura around them. With as much as they are leaving out and as quickly as things are moving, that would seem like the best time to do that… and from a place of authority being the Amyrlin herself.
Spoilers from books and future episodes...
Siuan is in this season. She's been in lots of trailers and stuff. My understanding from reading advanced reviews is that the EM5 all get to the White Tower in Episode 6 of the first season. So that bit with Siuan in the Borderlands is not going to happen. And it was always a bit wacky for me that the Seat showed up there.
Future Season 1 episode speculation and book stuff:
I am guessing they are going to be using a Waygate outside of Tar Valon to get to Fal Dara, instead of the Camelyn one (since they are not going to Camelyn). I am guessing that Loial is going to be in Tar Valon as well, so we'll probably meet him in S1E6 as well.
Oh, and additional speculation on Perrin, book spoilers and episode speculation...
Anyone else read the idea that Perrin's wife was a Darkfriend? And that she was actually attacking him when he killed her? The trollocs were totally dead, so she doesn't really have a reason to raise that hammer in his direction.... potential that she was working with Fain in some capacity...
I think Perrin is definitely my least favourite casting of the main crew so far.
I'm honestly not feeling Rosamund Pike either. She's fine but she doesn't really feel regal enough for Moraine.
What? She's too tall to be Moraine from the books but not regal enough? I've been listening to the her narration of the audio book of Eye of the World for and it's excellent. That voice/accent of hers is distinctly regal.
I’m watched the first three eps and boy, the writing is loose. A lot of the scenes are visually striking but leave you kinds wondering what the point was.
I’m sure they were leery of doing too much exposition but by the third ep I’d like the plot fleshed out a little bit more than ‘run to the tower’
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Its early still, but whichever ways the writers decided to rewrite the Dragon/One Power stuff to appease Twitter seems to have gutted one of the core narrative tensions out of the story. Whoops *shocked Pikachu face*
All Episodes+pretty vague big theme book stuff
Given the "Its not for you to touch" comment when the Reds capture Logain(presumably). "Anyone of you 4 can be the Dragon, and that is great' tone- it seems to be referred to exclusively as an "and will save the world". They seem to have either redid the whole Siadin/Saidar aspect, the taint, the prophecies, or all of the above.
One of the core conflicts through the all books is that the Dragon is always to be feared as well- if not more so than- seen as salvation. He is doomed to go mad for handling the tainted half of the source. The mark of the dragon on someone's door is akin to a medieval accusation of witchcraft. And the response to "One of you is the dragon" seems to be 'um...okay great', also 'Oh the dragon, um whats that?'
The response to "One of you is the Dragon" is so muted. It'd be like if you pulled 4 kids from a bible camp and told them "One of you is actually God returned about to start Revelations", and they are all just 'I hope someone helps my da milk the cows while I'm gone.'
I'm not a big fan of the changes to Matt and Perrin's backstories, they have all the hallmarks of bad writers doing punch up for more DRAMA!!
Although with the changes to the white cloaks
Books
Is it possible we lose Galad(And maybe Gawyn too?) Shit needs to get cut and honestly they aren't really all that important in the resolution.
With the whitecloaks being played up as even more evil, and the Perrin killing a few of them seemingly skipped, the entire whitecloaks arc is kind of unneeded at all.
And Gawyn was always useless, so easy cut there.
So pluses and minuses, but more of the later I think.
What on earth does appeasing Twitter mean in this context?
I'm pretty sure what they are talking about is a big spoiler from the end of the first book, so I'll spoil it.
I'm assuming they are referencing the whole thing where in the show The Dragon could be a girl too.
Yes I’m aware of this but it’s still a baffling statement
We had this argument in the beginning few pages of the thread but basically. The magic system as written in the books- and by extension the entire nature of the world- is gender essentialist. Its not acceptable to have that in fiction now and thus they are apparently changing it. But the 'yin and yang' gender dichotomy is built into so many of the structures of the world and the whys of the world and characters that by removing that(or at least not engaging with it) they've basically flattened the plot, into a generic "(one of) You is the very special savior of the world"*. They took the story and made it worse, but hey its gender politics are more modern so...yay?
*Book spoilers, nothing specific really plot wise.
That the dragon is a male chaneller who must handle the tainted half of the one power and is thus doomed to eventual madness. Is a constant tension in the books. It informs the entire worlds perspective of the Dragon. None of the 3 male characters want to be the Dragon. The Dragon is something to be feared. Someone to avoid as much as possible, so you aren't near by when he finally cracks and murders everyone near him.
He is Jesus+Doctor Manhattan, destined to return and save the world but also doomed to go insane and do a bunch of murdering. Everyone knows he will at somepoint return and fears that. But all that(along with the all female white tower, the hunting down of false dragons, etc) is tied to the essentialist, binary nature of the one power.
It shouldn't be "You're a wizard Harry", its "You're a wizard Harry, and you a destined to save us from Voldemort and also go insane and kill lots of people"
Its like trying to remake Moby Dick, without violence against animals so @PETA doesn't drag you. Accept that the story doesn't map perfectly onto modern ethos and go from there. Rather than excise a bunch of its ribs, and leave it a blob.
that's a fairly wild assumption to make based on how little we know about the universe the show has presented. the dragon could be any of them, but it won't be it, it will 100% be the person it is in the books, so the woke brigade has ruined my life the entire show?
There's one bit of thing that I think helps set the tone for the series and why news or rumors of the Dragon, is basically always viewed as false by pretty much everyone, because they don't want it to be true. And it informs a lot of the reactions of the main characters and factions throughout the series.
It's a small thing that I've noticed in a lot of reviews, especially from those that haven't read the books. I think it's actually sourced from Amazon's advertising copy and maybe that's why.
But when talking about the show, a lot of stuff says something like "the Dragon, prophesied to save the world...or destroy it."
When it should be "save the world and destroy it." Like it's a whole big thing that everyone knows that in the best case scenario things will super fucking suck for a bunch of people, but it beats the alternative of reality being utterly destroyed.
I liked Thom but his present circumstances/attitude definitely seem different from book Thom.
Books 1 and 2
Book Thom was a former court bard as well as accomplished spy and intriguer. And despite how much he talks up how grand it is be a Gleeman, even better than those lousy bards, you can tell a lot of that is just posturing. He misses the life he gave up, and you can tell how much by quality of his instruments and the care he takes.
I think they'll probably be able to do good things with this Thom, but it's definitely not the same.
I don't know if they ripped out the saidar and tainted saidin or have the showrunners mentioned it explicitly?
For me WOT is also about Rand continued struggle against the crazy.
Maybe it's a closed guarded secret that males can channel and go crazy because of touching the source or not that well known in the two rivers.
Maybe we get the exposition next episode when they meet the red ae sedai.
I don't know if they ripped out the saidar and tainted saidin or have the showrunners mentioned it explicitly?
For me WOT is also about Rand continued struggle against the crazy.
Maybe it's a closed guarded secret that males can channel and go crazy because of touching the source or not that well known in the two rivers.
Maybe we get the exposition next episode when they meet the red ae sedai.
They've definitely alluded to it but not gotten into the specifics of why any of it is the way it is.
Moiraine's voiceover in the opening of act 1 touches on it, and then a lot of the background materials they have available get a little bit more into how its the result of counterstrike from the sealing. I don't know if they've gone so far as to mention saidin and saidar yet.
It’s the end of season 5. We’ve just finished the episode “Dumai’s Wells.”
Buzzfeed has headline with a picture of post-box Rand labeled “Reactions to Wheel of Time’s Shocking Finale Show We’re All Aes Sedai.”
And people are still arguing over making a female Dragon an option. Somebody on Reddit, with complete sincerity, will claim it’s still not certain Rand is the Dragon.
EDIT: Clarified scope of spoilers. Sorry for the oversight.
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That's before I turned on subtitles so I must have missed it. Especially since she pronounces it wrong :P.
That's an even weirder thing to say though! And even more inexplicable.
We had this argument in the beginning few pages of the thread but basically. The magic system as written in the books- and by extension the entire nature of the world- is gender essentialist. Its not acceptable to have that in fiction now and thus they are apparently changing it. But the 'yin and yang' gender dichotomy is built into so many of the structures of the world and the whys of the world and characters that by removing that(or at least not engaging with it) they've basically flattened the plot, into a generic "(one of) You is the very special savior of the world"*. They took the story and made it worse, but hey its gender politics are more modern so...yay?
*Book spoilers, nothing specific really plot wise.
He is Jesus+Doctor Manhattan, destined to return and save the world but also doomed to go insane and do a bunch of murdering. Everyone knows he will at somepoint return and fears that. But all that(along with the all female white tower, the hunting down of false dragons, etc) is tied to the essentialist, binary nature of the one power.
It shouldn't be "You're a wizard Harry", its "You're a wizard Harry, and you a destined to save us from Voldemort and also go insane and kill lots of people"
Its like trying to remake Moby Dick, without violence against animals so @PETA doesn't drag you. Accept that the story doesn't map perfectly onto modern ethos and go from there. Rather than excise a bunch of its ribs, and leave it a blob.
As noted in the above discussions, this is mostly about your hangups. You can absolutely make Moby Dick without the whale. It's been done LITERALLY dozens if not hundreds of time. The whale isn't important, the crux of it is the sense of revenge over reason. Just like in this, there are all KINDS of ways you can have the Dragon reborn as a woman and still have things playout, as has been explained upthread a lot. It's also worth remembering that a LOT of the prophecy given in the book is... tricksy wording. That's one of the major thrusts of the entire novel series.
There are problems with this theory that are much more important than "IT HAS TO BE A MAN BECAUSE MEN v WOMEN".
The inn entrance scene was a little silly, sure, but after the hot tub scene there was no real competition.
So far my thoughts are that the way they've shifted the narrative around to accomodate some of these changes is not helping them at all.
Sure, but remove the violence and keep the rest of the story the same and it ends up just some guys out on a whale watching tour off Nantucket.
"One of you is the Dragon Reborn" should be a bombshell (to the characters). So far none of them have even engaged with it. But sure if you want to really split hairs, maybe that is just shitty writing outside of the decision to strip away most the in world implications of it and replace them with nothing. Could be I guess.
Now maybe they'll get there. But their need to punch up Matt and Perrin for daytime soap grade drama....doesn't promise much.
I mean, yes, but this isn't what was discussed. I still remember reading this story and feeling like the main trio were just shell shocked reeling from event to event the whole time in the first book almost precisely because of that revelation.
But other than all that they're pretty decent historical bits. You can watch all of them from the latest episode, instead of going through one by apparently.
The first one is about the Breaking of the World. The second, the fall of Manetheren, the 3rd is a bit of Warder history about the greatest Warder/swordsman in history, Jearom.
Though regarding that one
Book 3
A+ on the sets, costumes, and scenery. My wife says it's filmed in the Czech Republic? Man, I need to go there now.
I love love love the Whitecloak's costumes.
The acting has mostly been fine. Rosamund Pike is obviously great, and I loved Thom and the Questioner also. The kids are ok. Nothing spectacular yet. Nothing super cringe worthy.
I agree that the first episode was rushed, the One Of You Is The Dragon Reborn was rushed, and its impact glossed over. The episodes progressively got better though. The third episode was by far my favorite with the whole Rand/Mat inn arc being excellent. The barmaid was wonderful.
There is a metric ton of foreshadowing that I'm going to rewatch to Leopointing.jpg at.
All in all B+ probably so far, looking forward to more.
Also I dunno who was complaining about it, but the humor that's there is hitting for me. Enough for a few sensible chuckles. Maybe a shocked laugh at "We'll take turns." "You think she's up for that?" "The wood, Mat."
My favorite character adaptation wise so far is probably Nynaeve, she's just fucking spot on as a force of nature who takes no guff while still being a bit insecure about her position.
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Fuck Joe Manchin
Show just kind of didn’t go there, at least not yet
It's not a super likeable cast, but in all fairness, they weren't written as likeable for the most part.
Honestly, based on your posting history is there ANYTHING you like?
I love lamp.
I never saw the resemblance until a few days ago after people kept mentioning it and now I can't unsee it.
I'm honestly not feeling Rosamund Pike either. She's fine but she doesn't really feel regal enough for Moraine.
Spoilers from books and future episodes...
Future Season 1 episode speculation and book stuff:
Oh, and additional speculation on Perrin, book spoilers and episode speculation...
What? She's too tall to be Moraine from the books but not regal enough? I've been listening to the her narration of the audio book of Eye of the World for and it's excellent. That voice/accent of hers is distinctly regal.
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I’m sure they were leery of doing too much exposition but by the third ep I’d like the plot fleshed out a little bit more than ‘run to the tower’
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that's a fairly wild assumption to make based on how little we know about the universe the show has presented. the dragon could be any of them, but it won't be it, it will 100% be the person it is in the books, so the woke brigade has ruined my life the entire show?
give me a break.
why, you may even be shocked to find racism and sexism in modern fictional works!!!!! and that stopped being "allowed" decades ago!!!!
It's a small thing that I've noticed in a lot of reviews, especially from those that haven't read the books. I think it's actually sourced from Amazon's advertising copy and maybe that's why.
But when talking about the show, a lot of stuff says something like "the Dragon, prophesied to save the world...or destroy it."
When it should be "save the world and destroy it." Like it's a whole big thing that everyone knows that in the best case scenario things will super fucking suck for a bunch of people, but it beats the alternative of reality being utterly destroyed.
Books 1 and 2
I think they'll probably be able to do good things with this Thom, but it's definitely not the same.
For me WOT is also about Rand continued struggle against the crazy.
Maybe it's a closed guarded secret that males can channel and go crazy because of touching the source or not that well known in the two rivers.
Maybe we get the exposition next episode when they meet the red ae sedai.
They've definitely alluded to it but not gotten into the specifics of why any of it is the way it is.
Buzzfeed has headline with a picture of post-box Rand labeled “Reactions to Wheel of Time’s Shocking Finale Show We’re All Aes Sedai.”
And people are still arguing over making a female Dragon an option. Somebody on Reddit, with complete sincerity, will claim it’s still not certain Rand is the Dragon.
EDIT: Clarified scope of spoilers. Sorry for the oversight.
They've done too much establishing it seemingly outside just her POV to pull that I think.
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