On somewhat of a tangent I think I just had a revelation about this kind of prestige television. It's written more like one long miniseries. This episode had the closest thing to a normal A plot and B plot that actually resolved by the end of the episode.
Yeah a trend with a lot of prestige-esque series is that they don't really do traditional episode-specific plotting very well. They might, if the writers are competent, try and tie the bit of story told in any specific episode with some kind of theme but there's rarely a more traditional A/B plot structure that is introduced and resolved.
I'm not seeing a problem here.
Episode 1:
Introduces the world and the characters. Major attack that shakes up the main characters lives. Journey begins.
Episode 2:
Characters flee while being pursued. Find temporary shelter in what could easily be described as a monster of the week and then and ultimately end up separated.
Episode 3:
Plot A - Rand and Mat debate whether to go home or continue then have a full on villain of the week that ends with her dead and also solves their dilemma as to where to go.
Plot B - Lan and Nynaeve have personal drama while attempting to save Moraine and ultimately do so by the end of the episode.
Plot C - Egwene and Perrin are pursued by wolves for their conflict which is resolved when it turns out the wolves were not actually pursuing them at all, but leading them to safety.
Episode 4:
Plot A - Moraine/Lan/Nynaeve and Co. deal with the false dragon and ultimately win. Nynaeve is revealed as a channeler in the climax.
Plot B - Rand/Mat/Thom continue their journey and fight a Myrddraal. Rand/Mat lose their new guide.
Plot C - Primarily character development for Perrin and an introduction of the Way of the Leaf. Actually probably the least amount of plot for any of the main characters with the exception of Nynaeve in episode 2.
I can't understand this particular criticism at all. It's not as far off as thinking the show did Logain wrong, but I'm still not seeing it.
I don't know why you think it's a criticism. It's just a thing about how these shows are generally written that was noted. No one in this quote tree said anything negative.
On somewhat of a tangent I think I just had a revelation about this kind of prestige television. It's written more like one long miniseries. This episode had the closest thing to a normal A plot and B plot that actually resolved by the end of the episode.
Yeah a trend with a lot of prestige-esque series is that they don't really do traditional episode-specific plotting very well. They might, if the writers are competent, try and tie the bit of story told in any specific episode with some kind of theme but there's rarely a more traditional A/B plot structure that is introduced and resolved.
I'm not seeing a problem here.
Episode 1:
Introduces the world and the characters. Major attack that shakes up the main characters lives. Journey begins.
Episode 2:
Characters flee while being pursued. Find temporary shelter in what could easily be described as a monster of the week and then and ultimately end up separated.
Episode 3:
Plot A - Rand and Mat debate whether to go home or continue then have a full on villain of the week that ends with her dead and also solves their dilemma as to where to go.
Plot B - Lan and Nynaeve have personal drama while attempting to save Moraine and ultimately do so by the end of the episode.
Plot C - Egwene and Perrin are pursued by wolves for their conflict which is resolved when it turns out the wolves were not actually pursuing them at all, but leading them to safety.
Episode 4:
Plot A - Moraine/Lan/Nynaeve and Co. deal with the false dragon and ultimately win. Nynaeve is revealed as a channeler in the climax.
Plot B - Rand/Mat/Thom continue their journey and fight a Myrddraal. Rand/Mat lose their new guide.
Plot C - Primarily character development for Perrin and an introduction of the Way of the Leaf. Actually probably the least amount of plot for any of the main characters with the exception of Nynaeve in episode 2.
I can't understand this particular criticism at all. It's not as far off as thinking the show did Logain wrong, but I'm still not seeing it.
I don't know why you think it's a criticism. It's just a thing about how these shows are generally written that was noted. No one in this quote tree said anything negative.
I didn't think you were criticizing it, but were only replying to a criticism. As to why I think that was a criticism? Just read the rest of the thread.
On somewhat of a tangent I think I just had a revelation about this kind of prestige television. It's written more like one long miniseries. This episode had the closest thing to a normal A plot and B plot that actually resolved by the end of the episode.
Yeah a trend with a lot of prestige-esque series is that they don't really do traditional episode-specific plotting very well. They might, if the writers are competent, try and tie the bit of story told in any specific episode with some kind of theme but there's rarely a more traditional A/B plot structure that is introduced and resolved.
I'm not seeing a problem here.
Episode 1:
Introduces the world and the characters. Major attack that shakes up the main characters lives. Journey begins.
Episode 2:
Characters flee while being pursued. Find temporary shelter in what could easily be described as a monster of the week and then and ultimately end up separated.
Episode 3:
Plot A - Rand and Mat debate whether to go home or continue then have a full on villain of the week that ends with her dead and also solves their dilemma as to where to go.
Plot B - Lan and Nynaeve have personal drama while attempting to save Moraine and ultimately do so by the end of the episode.
Plot C - Egwene and Perrin are pursued by wolves for their conflict which is resolved when it turns out the wolves were not actually pursuing them at all, but leading them to safety.
Episode 4:
Plot A - Moraine/Lan/Nynaeve and Co. deal with the false dragon and ultimately win. Nynaeve is revealed as a channeler in the climax.
Plot B - Rand/Mat/Thom continue their journey and fight a Myrddraal. Rand/Mat lose their new guide.
Plot C - Primarily character development for Perrin and an introduction of the Way of the Leaf. Actually probably the least amount of plot for any of the main characters with the exception of Nynaeve in episode 2.
I can't understand this particular criticism at all. It's not as far off as thinking the show did Logain wrong, but I'm still not seeing it.
I don't know why you think it's a criticism. It's just a thing about how these shows are generally written that was noted. No one in this quote tree said anything negative.
I didn't think you were criticizing it, but were only replying to a criticism. As to why I think that was a criticism? Just read the rest of the thread.
The rest of the thread suggests that if someone wants to criticize the show, they will just do it and not try and be coy about it.
Looking at the “first turn” album, am I correct that Nynaeve doesn’t have her own theme? She shares “Lost Love” with Lan, and in the real soundtrack she mostly uses elements of “Lost Love” and “Aes Sedai“
Whereas the 3 boys def have themes (Goldeneyes, Old Blood, Dragon) and I’m pretty sure “The Flame” really is for Egwene it’s mixed into Trust the River
On somewhat of a tangent I think I just had a revelation about this kind of prestige television. It's written more like one long miniseries. This episode had the closest thing to a normal A plot and B plot that actually resolved by the end of the episode.
Yeah a trend with a lot of prestige-esque series is that they don't really do traditional episode-specific plotting very well. They might, if the writers are competent, try and tie the bit of story told in any specific episode with some kind of theme but there's rarely a more traditional A/B plot structure that is introduced and resolved.
I'm not seeing a problem here.
Episode 1:
Introduces the world and the characters. Major attack that shakes up the main characters lives. Journey begins.
Episode 2:
Characters flee while being pursued. Find temporary shelter in what could easily be described as a monster of the week and then and ultimately end up separated.
Episode 3:
Plot A - Rand and Mat debate whether to go home or continue then have a full on villain of the week that ends with her dead and also solves their dilemma as to where to go.
Plot B - Lan and Nynaeve have personal drama while attempting to save Moraine and ultimately do so by the end of the episode.
Plot C - Egwene and Perrin are pursued by wolves for their conflict which is resolved when it turns out the wolves were not actually pursuing them at all, but leading them to safety.
Episode 4:
Plot A - Moraine/Lan/Nynaeve and Co. deal with the false dragon and ultimately win. Nynaeve is revealed as a channeler in the climax.
Plot B - Rand/Mat/Thom continue their journey and fight a Myrddraal. Rand/Mat lose their new guide.
Plot C - Primarily character development for Perrin and an introduction of the Way of the Leaf. Actually probably the least amount of plot for any of the main characters with the exception of Nynaeve in episode 2.
I can't understand this particular criticism at all. It's not as far off as thinking the show did Logain wrong, but I'm still not seeing it.
I don't know why you think it's a criticism. It's just a thing about how these shows are generally written that was noted. No one in this quote tree said anything negative.
I didn't think you were criticizing it, but were only replying to a criticism. As to why I think that was a criticism? Just read the rest of the thread.
The rest of the thread suggests that if someone wants to criticize the show, they will just do it and not try and be coy about it.
Okay, let's not get super hung up on the word criticism then. I am disagreeing with both of your points about this show not having a fairly traditional plot structure.
Episode 4 was a better episode, like to watch, but I'd really like to see some stuff from the book rather than constant remixing or original scenes/dialogue.
Also the magic looked a lot better, I'm willing to give the dance scene in episode 1 a pass now for being basically the pilot. It's still not great, but it's better.
While they clarify that women can't see men channeling, I guess men can see women's weaves. Otherwise there's no reason for Logain to refer to Nynaeve as a 'radiant sun' when, to him, she'd just be sitting there screaming in a totally normal room while dying people suddenly sat up and were fine for no reason.
I know it's actually just laziness and dumbing it down for the viewers yet again.
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AegisFear My DanceOvershot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered Userregular
Quite enjoyed this episode, though I also liked 1-3. This seemed to have both a nice amount of lore dump (quite a bit in fact) paired with decent action at the end.
Random thoughts/comments as a non-book reader:
That weird dark stuff with Mat is pretty clearly the shadow-stuff-thing from Aridhol, though I hope it's not just an off-screen "he got infected, you just didn't see it" thing. The only other thing it could be is that dagger, I guess? Gleamer was not seen dying on-screen to the big-bad-Nazghul-thing, so he's probably fine.
Perrin throwing out the line to the young traveler about how hasn't he already found the Song? was impressive. You've been here a day and you just completely upended that kid's worldview.
It didn't even register that the Aes Sedai wore different-coloured robes until it was explained this episode. Cute that they mean something.
I don't know if it was intentional, but Logain's army seemed to share his overconfident approach to things, since even I could figure out that attacking a group of multiple mages with trained melee backup was not going to end well for you. That one Aes Sedai with the green robes must have killed over a hundred soldiers by herself.
Nynaeve as the dragon doesn't track, personally. She's pretty clearly established as an upcoming Aes Sedai, probably about as much as Egwene. And what she did tracks with what she's already been shown to be good at (healing). Interesting that her power was able to heal mortal wounds (Lan's throat) but could not resurrect the recently dead.
I'm now idly wondering if the Dragon is confined to being just one person. Can it be reborn across multiple people in the same Age? Too many different people seem to be displaying strong powers at the same time.
Really liked it.
The battle scene looked cool and everything felt in universe believable.
Nynaeve busting out the mass heal was epic and I can't wait to see how the Aes Sedai change their perception of her and start swarming.
The Tinker stuff was not bad either. EDIT: Sorry, forgot one complaint. Tinkers are amish or something? hah
The fade being afraid of the dagger was super cool.
I wish we had a more glib/jokey Thom but meh, he's ok.
The doll call to Birgitte and "protecting me when I sleep" is a great nod to the books.
Overall the strongest ep for me to date.
I have some quibbles but nothing major.
Re: Tuatha'an
I've seen a lot of people bothered by the Rumspringa analog, saying that the Tuatha'an are supposed to be Romani inspired (which, they are) but I don't know enough about them to say whether or not they also practice pacifism, but that's definitely a belief of Amish/Mennonite groups. Possibly I'm biased because I was raised Mennonite, but it made perfect sense to me that while they'd definitely want everyone to stay in the community, that it would be important to them that they'd choose the Way of the Leaf. Given how often they work to convert others, even those with a history of violence, it doesn't seem out of character that they'd allow someone back in. Another thing about Amish and Mennonites is that they're part of the larger Anabaptist movement, in which the defining feature is the practice of adult baptism. Baptism being such an important symbol and spiritual commitment in Christianity, to them, an infant cannot possibly by baptized in a meaningful sense. *
book 4+ spoils now
It complicates the execution of the arc that Aram goes through and his relationship with Raen and Ila, but it doesn't make it impossible.
*end of book 1, probably end of this season spoils
Which might also be why Lan's parents swearing him into his eternal suicidal vengeance thing never felt quite right to me. Like a colossal guilt trip to lay on a baby as your last living act.
Episode 4 was a better episode, like to watch, but I'd really like to see some stuff from the book rather than constant remixing or original scenes/dialogue.
Also the magic looked a lot better, I'm willing to give the dance scene in episode 1 a pass now for being basically the pilot. It's still not great, but it's better.
While they clarify that women can't see men channeling, I guess men can see women's weaves. Otherwise there's no reason for Logain to refer to Nynaeve as a 'radiant sun' when, to him, she'd just be sitting there screaming in a totally normal room while dying people suddenly sat up and were fine for no reason.
I know it's actually just laziness and dumbing it down for the viewers yet again.
The best explanation that I have seen for Logain (and everyone else) seeing Nynaeve's channeling there is that there was a physical manifestation of light when it happened (this also occurs in the books during the cleansing doesn't it?) so I'm ok with it.
Otherwise yeah, people can see the other side channeling which would be another stupid TV change.
Episode 4 was a better episode, like to watch, but I'd really like to see some stuff from the book rather than constant remixing or original scenes/dialogue.
Also the magic looked a lot better, I'm willing to give the dance scene in episode 1 a pass now for being basically the pilot. It's still not great, but it's better.
While they clarify that women can't see men channeling, I guess men can see women's weaves. Otherwise there's no reason for Logain to refer to Nynaeve as a 'radiant sun' when, to him, she'd just be sitting there screaming in a totally normal room while dying people suddenly sat up and were fine for no reason.
I know it's actually just laziness and dumbing it down for the viewers yet again.
The best explanation that I have seen for Logain (and everyone else) seeing Nynaeve's channeling there is that there was a physical manifestation of light when it happened (this also occurs in the books during the cleansing doesn't it?) so I'm ok with it.
Otherwise yeah, people can see the other side channeling which would be another stupid TV change.
It could be that at that moment his Talent to see Ta'veren kicked in and she is one of the new Ta'veren. Though she's less ta'vereny than Egwene imo.
That or just the massive, untrained use of the power caused some visual leakage. I doubt he actually saw the weaves or the channeling, since they already explicitly said women can't see men's weaves, and there's no way this team of writers would make men and women even more unbalanced than they were in the books. There's also tons of weaves and events that caused a light show, so it's not too crazy.
Quite enjoyed this episode, though I also liked 1-3. This seemed to have both a nice amount of lore dump (quite a bit in fact) paired with decent action at the end.
Random thoughts/comments as a non-book reader:
That weird dark stuff with Mat is pretty clearly the shadow-stuff-thing from Aridhol, though I hope it's not just an off-screen "he got infected, you just didn't see it" thing. The only other thing it could be is that dagger, I guess? Gleamer was not seen dying on-screen to the big-bad-Nazghul-thing, so he's probably fine.
Perrin throwing out the line to the young traveler about how hasn't he already found the Song? was impressive. You've been here a day and you just completely upended that kid's worldview.
It didn't even register that the Aes Sedai wore different-coloured robes until it was explained this episode. Cute that they mean something.
I don't know if it was intentional, but Logain's army seemed to share his overconfident approach to things, since even I could figure out that attacking a group of multiple mages with trained melee backup was not going to end well for you. That one Aes Sedai with the green robes must have killed over a hundred soldiers by herself.
Nynaeve as the dragon doesn't track, personally. She's pretty clearly established as an upcoming Aes Sedai, probably about as much as Egwene. And what she did tracks with what she's already been shown to be good at (healing). Interesting that her power was able to heal mortal wounds (Lan's throat) but could not resurrect the recently dead.
I'm now idly wondering if the Dragon is confined to being just one person. Can it be reborn across multiple people in the same Age? Too many different people seem to be displaying strong powers at the same time.
re: the healing. There's two big limitations on healing. Aes Sedai can't heal themselves, and while if they get there in time (and they're a powerful/skilled enough healer) they can heal pretty much anything short of death, they cannot actually undo death itself.
edit: They also can't really do anything about regrowing lost body parts or fixing scars/wounds that are too old. Basically if a body on its own could conceivably heal itself out of something Aes Sedai can make that happen, real fast.
Ep 4 definitely had better actor choreography with the channeling.
Although the ending bit was kinda silly for dramatic effect I guess.
EDIT: Oh yeah, Logain's army was sadly super cheap looking as only a dozen people running around in the woods pretending to be an army can be. Feels like the kind of thing where you wanna look at your budget and what you can pull off and think that maybe we should do something different here.
Lore Post! Why do they wear different colors? Aes Sedai Ajahs
No spoilers for the non book readers. Just background lore, most of it probably in the extra content section already
Starting with the ones we've encountered so far Blue: Moiraine's Ajah. Blues are known for "dedicating themselves to Causes", e.g. Moiraine's personal quest to find the Dragon Reborn. Due to the nature of their work, they tend to operate more independently of the Tower and other Aes Sedai, as they're often out and about doing things. Blues are also have a reputation for being manipulators, and are among the most directly involved in politics, with many rulers having an Aes Sedai advisor, usually of the Blue Ajah, either publicly or in secret if Aes Sedai aren't popular in their country.
Red: Liandrin's Ajah, and that of her sisters also wearing tons of red. This Ajah dedicates itself to finding and Gentling men who can channel. They're not particularly fond of men in general, and never bond Warders.
Green: Karene and Alanna's Ajah: The so-called Battle Ajah. The oaths prevent using the Power as a weapon except in self defense or against shadowspawn, but Greens work to prepare themselves to fight the servants of the Dark in the Last Battle. They specialize in the use of channeling for combat, though they occasionally also study more mundane warfare strategy and tactics. They played a key role in the Trolloc Wars (the war that ended with the fall of Manetheren). Members of the Green Ajah are the only Ajah to bond multiple Warders simultaneously, and also are the only ones to occasionally marry them.
Yellow: This Ajah specializes in the use of the Power for healing.
Brown: This Ajah specializes in research. Mostly they're not that different a standard librarian or academic, other than having many more years to devote to their studies, though they often are the ones who study the uses of artifacts left from the Age of Legends.
White: These Aes Sedai are logicians. Gray: The Gray Ajah studies law. If there is a particularly thorny issue of law, they may be consulted to adjudicate, or help with two countries parsing the particulars of an old treaty, or drafting a new one.
All Aes Sedai have some training in all the various things, but upon completion of their training will join the Ajah that most closely aligns with their interests.
Books: male channelers couldn't see saidar weaves, but could tell when women were channeling around them. I'm not shocked they simplified/visualized it for the show rather than have Logain be like "Oh she makes me SUPER tingly".
Books: male channelers couldn't see saidar weaves, but could tell when women were channeling around them. I'm not shocked they simplified/visualized it for the show rather than have Logain be like "Oh she makes me SUPER tingly".
Show spoiler?
Per discussion about the Aes Sedai big movements, you'll notice Logain barely moves at ALL when channelling.
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Tiger BurningDig if you will, the pictureRegistered User, SolidSaints Tuberegular
edited November 2021
Episode 4 was pretty good! They did a good job of conveying a lot of lore and background info without it ever feeling like an exposition dump, and the parts that were invented for the show were mostly entertaining in their own right.
Loved this portrayal of Logain, and the actor. He stole every scene he was in.
Battle was meh, but I generally find fight scenes and battles to be the least interesting parts of stories, so not much lost.
Decided to re-read the series over the holidays.
Biggest departure from the books so far:
Lan smiles in every scene! Old Smilin' Lan Mandragoran, that's what they call him.
Those we have lost (characters who may have been cut because they appeared in the books by now):
Lews Therin - Obviously the character existed in the show, but the book prologue with the actual portrayal of him did a good job of establishing stakes and the scope of things. But they can insert the flashback anywhere it makes sense so we may still get it.
Haral Luhhan - probably the least important of the Emond's Field father figures, but still a happy, grounding presence for Perrin. You will be missed.
Cenn Buie - Get fucked, Cenn, nobody likes you. And thatch sucks, learn 2 roof, loser.
Mordeth - Dumb name, cool concept. Would be a shame to lose the Grima Wormtongue-like personification to go along with the amorphous evil goo, but we might get it back when Fain reappears.
Bayle Domon - I do be thinking someone is going to have to get on a boat at some point.. Maybe not this season though.
Elyas Machera - They haven't introduced the wolves in earnest yet so we may still get him. Would leave a pretty big hole if not, because..
Dapple, Hopper, and co. - I just don't know how they're going to handle the wolves-as-characters in a way that isn't hopelessly corny. But they're such a big part of Perrin's whole deal they have to try, right?
Books: male channelers couldn't see saidar weaves, but could tell when women were channeling around them. I'm not shocked they simplified/visualized it for the show rather than have Logain be like "Oh she makes me SUPER tingly".
Everyone in the room reacts, warders included. It HAS to be a physical manifestation of some sort.
Books: male channelers couldn't see saidar weaves, but could tell when women were channeling around them. I'm not shocked they simplified/visualized it for the show rather than have Logain be like "Oh she makes me SUPER tingly".
Everyone in the room reacts, warders included. It HAS to be a physical manifestation of some sort.
From the looks of things, there was a lot of air flying around.
So they are saying a woman could be the Dragon? Who cares.
Because it makes no sense. The world and story are no longer logically or thematically coherent.
Yes, it remains consistent. Men still broke the world and men still go insane. You're conflating fear of the dragon with fear of men who can channel. The issues are related but separate.
No one's going to look at female Dragon and go "hey, I know your presence means the apocalypse is nigh and you might end civilization again, but you're a girl so it's all okay."
Books: male channelers couldn't see saidar weaves, but could tell when women were channeling around them. I'm not shocked they simplified/visualized it for the show rather than have Logain be like "Oh she makes me SUPER tingly".
Everyone in the room reacts, warders included. It HAS to be a physical manifestation of some sort.
From the looks of things, there was a lot of air flying around.
So they are saying a woman could be the Dragon? Who cares.
Because it makes no sense. The world and story are no longer logically or thematically coherent.
Yes, it remains consistent. Men still broke the world and men still go insane. You're conflating fear of the dragon with fear of men who can channel. The issues are related but separate.
No one's going to look at female Dragon and go "hey, I know your presence means the apocalypse is nigh and you might end civilization again, but you're a girl so it's all okay."
It's expressly because of the dark one's taint that Male channelers go insane. At worst a female dragon is Artur Hawkwing come again to shatter nations which yeah, it's bad, but it's not scare your children with it nighmares.
It's a fundamental shift of the story either for "mystery" or some other stupid reason.
It sounds like it's gonna be the former reason which is still silly to me but meh, I'll get over it.
Being scared of a person with a big gun is different from being scared of an insane person wearing a bomb vest.
You're right—and to carry that metaphor forward, there are still insane people wearing bomb vests running around.
That's the problem with this debate, claiming the potential of a female Dragon stops the worldbuilding from making sense is arguing that the Dragon is only reason men who can channel are feared and powerful men somewhat distrusted in parts of Westlands society.
I'd also point that "the world doesn't trust men" is an extreme oversimplification.
Spoilers for Book nations/cultures:
Most known nations and cultures have no issue with powerful men or male rulers. Andor, Seanchan, and the White Tower are the only states that explicitly disallow male leadership. The Athan'miere restrict captaincy to women, but that's more similar to the way Aiel clans separate leadership duties between genders rather than directly keeping men out of power.
Episode 4 was pretty good! They did a good job of conveying a lot of lore and background info without it ever feeling like an exposition dump, and the parts that were invented for the show were mostly entertaining in their own right.
Loved this portrayal of Logain, and the actor. He stole every scene he was in.
Battle was meh, but I generally find fight scenes and battles to be the least interesting parts of stories, so not much lost.
Decided to re-read the series over the holidays.
Biggest departure from the books so far:
Lan smiles in every scene! Old Smilin' Lan Mandragoran, that's what they call him.
Those we have lost (characters who may have been cut because they appeared in the books by now):
Lews Therin - Obviously the character existed in the show, but the book prologue with the actual portrayal of him did a good job of establishing stakes and the scope of things. But they can insert the flashback anywhere it makes sense so we may still get it.
Haral Luhhan - probably the least important of the Emond's Field father figures, but still a happy, grounding presence for Perrin. You will be missed.
Cenn Buie - Get fucked, Cenn, nobody likes you. And thatch sucks, learn 2 roof, loser.
Mordeth - Dumb name, cool concept. Would be a shame to lose the Grima Wormtongue-like personification to go along with the amorphous evil goo, but we might get it back when Fain reappears.
Bayle Domon - I do be thinking someone is going to have to get on a boat at some point.. Maybe not this season though.
Elyas Machera - They haven't introduced the wolves in earnest yet so we may still get him. Would leave a pretty big hole if not, because..
Dapple, Hopper, and co. - I just don't know how they're going to handle the wolves-as-characters in a way that isn't hopelessly corny. But they're such a big part of Perrin's whole deal they have to try, right?
I'm betting we see
Bayle Domon in season 2 in Falme. Maybe even briefly this season since I heard that the Seanchan might get introduced this season.
Really the two we are missing that I hope to see in an episode soon are
When it comes to people getting cut my bet is most of them is that it's a matter of removing characters we see early and then don't see again for a long time.
So we are missing (book spoilers):
Elayne and Gawyn and Elyas
for that reason I think.
For the same reason though that does make me wonder:
what the fuck are they gonna do with Logain for the next like 4 seasons. Cause he basically don't do shit till the Tower schism.
Being scared of a person with a big gun is different from being scared of an insane person wearing a bomb vest.
You're right—and to carry that metaphor forward, there are still insane people wearing bomb vests running around.
That's the problem with this debate, claiming the potential of a female Dragon stops the worldbuilding from making sense is arguing that the Dragon is only reason men who can channel are feared and powerful men somewhat distrusted in parts of Westlands society.
I'd also point that "the world doesn't trust men" is an extreme oversimplification.
Spoilers for Book nations/cultures:
Most known nations and cultures have no issue with powerful men or male rulers. Andor, Seanchan, and the White Tower are the only states that explicitly disallow male leadership. The Athan'miere restrict captaincy to women, but that's more similar to the way Aiel clans separate leadership duties between genders rather than directly keeping men out of power.
No, it's arguing that one of the big reasons the Dragon is feared is because he's a male channeler who is inevitably going to go nuts and kill everyone. A female Dragon cannot have the same story arc as a male one because all of the stigma inherent to it is just gone. Female Dragon shows up? Fuck yeah that's great. It's just a Super Aws Sedai. With only some specific exceptions the worst opinion anyone has of Aes Sedai is mild distrust. The immediate reaction of everyone to a male channeled is rabid animal.
Ep 4 definitely had better actor choreography with the channeling.
Although the ending bit was kinda silly for dramatic effect I guess.
EDIT: Oh yeah, Logain's army was sadly super cheap looking as only a dozen people running around in the woods pretending to be an army can be. Feels like the kind of thing where you wanna look at your budget and what you can pull off and think that maybe we should do something different here.
Yeah it does not give me much hope for them doing a good job with any of the actual significant battles. Not that I really expect the show to last long enough to get to any of them, but even
Tarwin's Gap
would require like a full CGI battle in the background.
While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
We know some of them are appearing the first season.
Loial was cast and credited with I think 4 episodes so we should meet him next ep. Though, they did tell us that his appearance is definitely changed from the books because the couldn't afford to have a major character who needed that much costuming/effects work all the time. Or I guess, Amazon wouldn't put out for them to do so.
Min was cast, but I think they had her show up in Fal Dara or maybe Tar Valon since obviously she isn't in Baerlon.
Lews Therin was cast.
The old dude with the beard and the forked walking stick was originally credited as Cenn Buie but was later change to "Cranky Old Man" possibly because he got offed in Winternight.
We probably aren't getting Elyas, Bayle, or Haral at least not in this season.
Agree on the wolves. Doing the communication with the wolves is gonna be dang weird to figure out, unless it's just like, voices and some images.
Elayne has also been cast for next season, but I really don't really remember Elayne's early plotlines at all, so I have no idea what if any effect that would have.
Being scared of a person with a big gun is different from being scared of an insane person wearing a bomb vest.
You're right—and to carry that metaphor forward, there are still insane people wearing bomb vests running around.
That's the problem with this debate, claiming the potential of a female Dragon stops the worldbuilding from making sense is arguing that the Dragon is only reason men who can channel are feared and powerful men somewhat distrusted in parts of Westlands society.
I'd also point that "the world doesn't trust men" is an extreme oversimplification.
Spoilers for Book nations/cultures:
Most known nations and cultures have no issue with powerful men or male rulers. Andor, Seanchan, and the White Tower are the only states that explicitly disallow male leadership. The Athan'miere restrict captaincy to women, but that's more similar to the way Aiel clans separate leadership duties between genders rather than directly keeping men out of power.
No, it's arguing that one of the big reasons the Dragon is feared is because he's a male channeler who is inevitably going to go nuts and kill everyone. A female Dragon cannot have the same story arc as a male one because all of the stigma inherent to it is just gone. Female Dragon shows up? Fuck yeah that's great. It's just a Super Aws Sedai. With only some specific exceptions the worst opinion anyone has of Aes Sedai is mild distrust. The immediate reaction of everyone to a male channeled is rabid animal.
(Spoilers for the books and reading the showrunner's statements)
Yeah, it's almost like they're not actually doing a female Dragon.
Nobody's arguing that doing a female Dragon wouldn't radically alter the story. We're arguing that the possibility doesn't impact the world's stance on men who can channel or fear of the Dragon as much as you seem to think it does.
When it comes to people getting cut my bet is most of them is that it's a matter of removing characters we see early and then don't see again for a long time.
For the same reason though that does make me wonder:
what the fuck are they gonna do with Logain for the next like 4 seasons. Cause he basically don't do shit till the Tower schism.
(Season 2 Speculation)
I'll bet you dollars to donuts that the Tower coup either happens or gets setup during the second season.
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
I am really enjoying this. It seems to hold together pretty well.
Elayne has also been cast for next season, but I really don't really remember Elayne's early plotlines at all, so I have no idea what if any effect that would have.
It would be about right. She basically only had a couple chapters comprising one scene with Rand in book 1. She didn't start actually being a character who really does anything until book 2 when she meets Egwene and Nynaeve and generally gets sucked into whatever one or both of them is doing for the next several books.
This has been discussed multiple times in this thread. The whole men/women aspect is both dated and boring. I'm not even going to spoiler it. There is absolutely no real reason that channeling ability has to be tied to physical gender at birth. A person born as female at birth, who is actually a male would access Saidin the same as a someone born male at birth.
What people are freaking out about is "this changes the story", and... not really? It makes the Red Ajah misguided if they only target men, but hey, they already fucking were. If instead they target all channelers of Saidin, hey, guess what, we're back where we were, with just a LITTLE more investigation needed (and honestly,
It justifies the Whitecloaks suspicion of the Aes Sedai quite a bit
It is possible that yes the dragon had to be male but moraine just didn't know that and better to be safe then sorry. 3000 years of misinformation (often deliberate) and vague prophecy can confuse even a rational and intelligent person.
That said, as long as a female dragon cleanses the one power and has access to male channelers to form a circle with it would not break the story completely. Just need some massive reworking.
I do not worry the show will go downhill after the reveal. Each book had short and long term conflicts that could lead to an interesting show from the taint and bubbles of evil to the aiel and the black ajah. Watching Logain regain his mental foothold after the severing could be an interesting b plot to tower shenanigans.
He's a shy overambitious dog-catcher on the wrong side of the law. She's an orphaned psychic mercenary with the power to bend men's minds. They fight crime!
This has been discussed multiple times in this thread. The whole men/women aspect is both dated and boring. I'm not even going to spoiler it. There is absolutely no real reason that channeling ability has to be tied to physical gender at birth. A person born as female at birth, who is actually a male would access Saidin the same as a someone born male at birth.
What people are freaking out about is "this changes the story", and... not really? It makes the Red Ajah misguided if they only target men, but hey, they already fucking were. If instead they target all channelers of Saidin, hey, guess what, we're back where we were, with just a LITTLE more investigation needed (and honestly,
It justifies the Whitecloaks suspicion of the Aes Sedai quite a bit
yeah no big deal except no one, no nation, would trust channelers AT ALL because ANYONE could then be the dragon and fuck up the world.
Why would the white tower even be allowed to exist? or are we making up some test or gate that would allow them to identify and catch dragons? Or do Aes Sedai just toss out the oaths when someone proclaims but is not harming them? (i.e. why can't egwene proclaim herself and just not attack any aes sedai and then they can't do shit to her since she's not gonna go mad and there is no threat? ("in defense of ones own life or the life of her sisters").
The MINIMUM change is that everyone who shows an talent or channels is somehow vetted to tell if they wanna be a dragon or are the dragon and handwaving away a huge change like that is silly.
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
Dragon stuff
I mean, The Dragon could go nuts independently of being male. Lews Therin screaming in Rand's ear the whole time did not exactly do wonders for his mental state.
This has been discussed multiple times in this thread. The whole men/women aspect is both dated and boring. I'm not even going to spoiler it. There is absolutely no real reason that channeling ability has to be tied to physical gender at birth. A person born as female at birth, who is actually a male would access Saidin the same as a someone born male at birth.
What people are freaking out about is "this changes the story", and... not really? It makes the Red Ajah misguided if they only target men, but hey, they already fucking were. If instead they target all channelers of Saidin, hey, guess what, we're back where we were, with just a LITTLE more investigation needed (and honestly,
It justifies the Whitecloaks suspicion of the Aes Sedai quite a bit
yeah no big deal except no one, no nation, would trust channelers AT ALL because ANYONE could then be the dragon and fuck up the world.
Why would the white tower even be allowed to exist? or are we making up some test or gate that would allow them to identify and catch dragons? Or do Aes Sedai just toss out the oaths when someone proclaims but is not harming them? (i.e. why can't egwene proclaim herself and just not attack any aes sedai and then they can't do shit to her since she's not gonna go mad and there is no threat? ("in defense of ones own life or the life of her sisters").
The MINIMUM change is that everyone who shows an talent or channels is somehow vetted to tell if they wanna be a dragon or are the dragon and handwaving away a huge change like that is silly.
(Spoilers for worldbuilding and Book 2)
It’s kind of a big deal that not many people trust Aes Sedai.
In fact, Eye of the World makes it clear that most people blame them as a whole for the Breaking. People fear men who can channel for the same reasons they fear a rabid dog.
The White Tower is “allowed” to exist because 1) until the Seanchan arrive, no one is strong enough to defeat it martially and 2) it played a vital role in the creation of post-Breaking society and saving humanity during the Trolloc Wars.
This whole thing kind of illustrates my point. You tried to think of ways the potential of a female Dragon radically altered the story…only to describe something that already exists in the book and is in fact a major theme. It doesn’t alter the story as much as you think.
There's no reason it has to be like that, except that's what the book's about.
There's no reason why Vulcans have to have pointy ears, but if they suddenly didn't it would be weird.
(Spoilers for all books)
There’s a difference between the potential of a female Dragon and actually changing the story so that Rand isn’t the Dragon.
A few pages back, someone bought up Moby Dick. If they made an adaption where, in the first act, Ishmael wasn’t sure if they were hunting dolphins or whales—but then it turned out, yes it’s a whaling ship and yes Moby Dick is a big white one—would you argue that the story is radically altered?
When this show gets to season 2 and beyond, when everyone knows it’s Rand, how does the potential of a female Dragon continue to alter the story?
I gotta admit, if I hadn't read the books, when the show finally answers the Dragon question (spoilers for Dragon ID and important story beats)
I'd be super fucking pissed when it's Rand. After all that awesome development we get of female and minority characters, it's the bland pretty white boy? Of COURSE it is.
I almost wish the showrunners had the balls to make Egwene the Dragon and Rand the head of an Ashaman school loyal to her when the Tower breaks, and have one of the huge points of conflict between Tar Valon and Salidar be that she is not only the Dragon but that she has male channelers openly following her. It would certainly make that looooooong damn slog through the Salidar story arc more interesting.
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I don't know why you think it's a criticism. It's just a thing about how these shows are generally written that was noted. No one in this quote tree said anything negative.
I didn't think you were criticizing it, but were only replying to a criticism. As to why I think that was a criticism? Just read the rest of the thread.
The rest of the thread suggests that if someone wants to criticize the show, they will just do it and not try and be coy about it.
Whereas the 3 boys def have themes (Goldeneyes, Old Blood, Dragon) and I’m pretty sure “The Flame” really is for Egwene
Okay, let's not get super hung up on the word criticism then. I am disagreeing with both of your points about this show not having a fairly traditional plot structure.
Also the magic looked a lot better, I'm willing to give the dance scene in episode 1 a pass now for being basically the pilot. It's still not great, but it's better.
Random thoughts/comments as a non-book reader:
Perrin throwing out the line to the young traveler about how hasn't he already found the Song? was impressive. You've been here a day and you just completely upended that kid's worldview.
It didn't even register that the Aes Sedai wore different-coloured robes until it was explained this episode. Cute that they mean something.
I don't know if it was intentional, but Logain's army seemed to share his overconfident approach to things, since even I could figure out that attacking a group of multiple mages with trained melee backup was not going to end well for you. That one Aes Sedai with the green robes must have killed over a hundred soldiers by herself.
Nynaeve as the dragon doesn't track, personally. She's pretty clearly established as an upcoming Aes Sedai, probably about as much as Egwene. And what she did tracks with what she's already been shown to be good at (healing). Interesting that her power was able to heal mortal wounds (Lan's throat) but could not resurrect the recently dead.
I'm now idly wondering if the Dragon is confined to being just one person. Can it be reborn across multiple people in the same Age? Too many different people seem to be displaying strong powers at the same time.
Currently DMing: None
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[5e] Dural Melairkyn - AC 18 | HP 40 | Melee +5/1d8+3 | Spell +4/DC 12
Otherwise yeah, people can see the other side channeling which would be another stupid TV change.
That or just the massive, untrained use of the power caused some visual leakage. I doubt he actually saw the weaves or the channeling, since they already explicitly said women can't see men's weaves, and there's no way this team of writers would make men and women even more unbalanced than they were in the books. There's also tons of weaves and events that caused a light show, so it's not too crazy.
edit: They also can't really do anything about regrowing lost body parts or fixing scars/wounds that are too old. Basically if a body on its own could conceivably heal itself out of something Aes Sedai can make that happen, real fast.
Although the ending bit was kinda silly for dramatic effect I guess.
EDIT: Oh yeah, Logain's army was sadly super cheap looking as only a dozen people running around in the woods pretending to be an army can be. Feels like the kind of thing where you wanna look at your budget and what you can pull off and think that maybe we should do something different here.
Why do they wear different colors? Aes Sedai Ajahs
No spoilers for the non book readers. Just background lore, most of it probably in the extra content section already
Blue: Moiraine's Ajah. Blues are known for "dedicating themselves to Causes", e.g. Moiraine's personal quest to find the Dragon Reborn. Due to the nature of their work, they tend to operate more independently of the Tower and other Aes Sedai, as they're often out and about doing things. Blues are also have a reputation for being manipulators, and are among the most directly involved in politics, with many rulers having an Aes Sedai advisor, usually of the Blue Ajah, either publicly or in secret if Aes Sedai aren't popular in their country.
Red: Liandrin's Ajah, and that of her sisters also wearing tons of red. This Ajah dedicates itself to finding and Gentling men who can channel. They're not particularly fond of men in general, and never bond Warders.
Green: Karene and Alanna's Ajah: The so-called Battle Ajah. The oaths prevent using the Power as a weapon except in self defense or against shadowspawn, but Greens work to prepare themselves to fight the servants of the Dark in the Last Battle. They specialize in the use of channeling for combat, though they occasionally also study more mundane warfare strategy and tactics. They played a key role in the Trolloc Wars (the war that ended with the fall of Manetheren). Members of the Green Ajah are the only Ajah to bond multiple Warders simultaneously, and also are the only ones to occasionally marry them.
Yellow: This Ajah specializes in the use of the Power for healing.
Brown: This Ajah specializes in research. Mostly they're not that different a standard librarian or academic, other than having many more years to devote to their studies, though they often are the ones who study the uses of artifacts left from the Age of Legends.
White: These Aes Sedai are logicians.
Gray: The Gray Ajah studies law. If there is a particularly thorny issue of law, they may be consulted to adjudicate, or help with two countries parsing the particulars of an old treaty, or drafting a new one.
All Aes Sedai have some training in all the various things, but upon completion of their training will join the Ajah that most closely aligns with their interests.
Show spoiler?
Battle was meh, but I generally find fight scenes and battles to be the least interesting parts of stories, so not much lost.
Decided to re-read the series over the holidays.
Biggest departure from the books so far:
Those we have lost (characters who may have been cut because they appeared in the books by now):
Lews Therin - Obviously the character existed in the show, but the book prologue with the actual portrayal of him did a good job of establishing stakes and the scope of things. But they can insert the flashback anywhere it makes sense so we may still get it.
Haral Luhhan - probably the least important of the Emond's Field father figures, but still a happy, grounding presence for Perrin. You will be missed.
Cenn Buie - Get fucked, Cenn, nobody likes you. And thatch sucks, learn 2 roof, loser.
Mordeth - Dumb name, cool concept. Would be a shame to lose the Grima Wormtongue-like personification to go along with the amorphous evil goo, but we might get it back when Fain reappears.
Bayle Domon - I do be thinking someone is going to have to get on a boat at some point.. Maybe not this season though.
Elyas Machera - They haven't introduced the wolves in earnest yet so we may still get him. Would leave a pretty big hole if not, because..
Dapple, Hopper, and co. - I just don't know how they're going to handle the wolves-as-characters in a way that isn't hopelessly corny. But they're such a big part of Perrin's whole deal they have to try, right?
Yes, it remains consistent. Men still broke the world and men still go insane. You're conflating fear of the dragon with fear of men who can channel. The issues are related but separate.
No one's going to look at female Dragon and go "hey, I know your presence means the apocalypse is nigh and you might end civilization again, but you're a girl so it's all okay."
It's expressly because of the dark one's taint that Male channelers go insane. At worst a female dragon is Artur Hawkwing come again to shatter nations which yeah, it's bad, but it's not scare your children with it nighmares.
It's a fundamental shift of the story either for "mystery" or some other stupid reason.
It sounds like it's gonna be the former reason which is still silly to me but meh, I'll get over it.
You're right—and to carry that metaphor forward, there are still insane people wearing bomb vests running around.
That's the problem with this debate, claiming the potential of a female Dragon stops the worldbuilding from making sense is arguing that the Dragon is only reason men who can channel are feared and powerful men somewhat distrusted in parts of Westlands society.
I'd also point that "the world doesn't trust men" is an extreme oversimplification.
Spoilers for Book nations/cultures:
I'm betting we see
Really the two we are missing that I hope to see in an episode soon are
Nintendo ID: Incindium
PSN: IncindiumX
So we are missing (book spoilers):
For the same reason though that does make me wonder:
Having seen one of those after a little searching, I wouldn't get too excited for that. Yeesh.
No, it's arguing that one of the big reasons the Dragon is feared is because he's a male channeler who is inevitably going to go nuts and kill everyone. A female Dragon cannot have the same story arc as a male one because all of the stigma inherent to it is just gone. Female Dragon shows up? Fuck yeah that's great. It's just a Super Aws Sedai. With only some specific exceptions the worst opinion anyone has of Aes Sedai is mild distrust. The immediate reaction of everyone to a male channeled is rabid animal.
Yeah it does not give me much hope for them doing a good job with any of the actual significant battles. Not that I really expect the show to last long enough to get to any of them, but even
Loial was cast and credited with I think 4 episodes so we should meet him next ep. Though, they did tell us that his appearance is definitely changed from the books because the couldn't afford to have a major character who needed that much costuming/effects work all the time. Or I guess, Amazon wouldn't put out for them to do so.
Min was cast, but I think they had her show up in Fal Dara or maybe Tar Valon since obviously she isn't in Baerlon.
Lews Therin was cast.
The old dude with the beard and the forked walking stick was originally credited as Cenn Buie but was later change to "Cranky Old Man" possibly because he got offed in Winternight.
We probably aren't getting Elyas, Bayle, or Haral at least not in this season.
Agree on the wolves. Doing the communication with the wolves is gonna be dang weird to figure out, unless it's just like, voices and some images.
(Spoilers for the books and reading the showrunner's statements)
Nobody's arguing that doing a female Dragon wouldn't radically alter the story. We're arguing that the possibility doesn't impact the world's stance on men who can channel or fear of the Dragon as much as you seem to think it does.
(Season 2 Speculation)
What people are freaking out about is "this changes the story", and... not really? It makes the Red Ajah misguided if they only target men, but hey, they already fucking were. If instead they target all channelers of Saidin, hey, guess what, we're back where we were, with just a LITTLE more investigation needed (and honestly,
There's no reason why Vulcans have to have pointy ears, but if they suddenly didn't it would be weird.
That said, as long as a female dragon cleanses the one power and has access to male channelers to form a circle with it would not break the story completely. Just need some massive reworking.
I do not worry the show will go downhill after the reveal. Each book had short and long term conflicts that could lead to an interesting show from the taint and bubbles of evil to the aiel and the black ajah. Watching Logain regain his mental foothold after the severing could be an interesting b plot to tower shenanigans.
yeah no big deal except no one, no nation, would trust channelers AT ALL because ANYONE could then be the dragon and fuck up the world.
Why would the white tower even be allowed to exist? or are we making up some test or gate that would allow them to identify and catch dragons? Or do Aes Sedai just toss out the oaths when someone proclaims but is not harming them? (i.e. why can't egwene proclaim herself and just not attack any aes sedai and then they can't do shit to her since she's not gonna go mad and there is no threat? ("in defense of ones own life or the life of her sisters").
The MINIMUM change is that everyone who shows an talent or channels is somehow vetted to tell if they wanna be a dragon or are the dragon and handwaving away a huge change like that is silly.
I am really giggling that you picked Star Trek of all things to use an example for this.
Edit: For context, there are two klingons visible in the thumb nail for this video.
(Spoilers for worldbuilding and Book 2)
In fact, Eye of the World makes it clear that most people blame them as a whole for the Breaking. People fear men who can channel for the same reasons they fear a rabid dog.
The White Tower is “allowed” to exist because 1) until the Seanchan arrive, no one is strong enough to defeat it martially and 2) it played a vital role in the creation of post-Breaking society and saving humanity during the Trolloc Wars.
This whole thing kind of illustrates my point. You tried to think of ways the potential of a female Dragon radically altered the story…only to describe something that already exists in the book and is in fact a major theme. It doesn’t alter the story as much as you think.
(Spoilers for all books)
A few pages back, someone bought up Moby Dick. If they made an adaption where, in the first act, Ishmael wasn’t sure if they were hunting dolphins or whales—but then it turned out, yes it’s a whaling ship and yes Moby Dick is a big white one—would you argue that the story is radically altered?
When this show gets to season 2 and beyond, when everyone knows it’s Rand, how does the potential of a female Dragon continue to alter the story?
I almost wish the showrunners had the balls to make Egwene the Dragon and Rand the head of an Ashaman school loyal to her when the Tower breaks, and have one of the huge points of conflict between Tar Valon and Salidar be that she is not only the Dragon but that she has male channelers openly following her. It would certainly make that looooooong damn slog through the Salidar story arc more interesting.