You don’t need more than 1g/lb of protein to support muscle growth. Even slightly less is fine. Any excess calories should be split between fat and carbs, with prejudice to carbs because they fuel performance lifting weights.
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3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
I don't think there's a single useful one-size-fits-all guidelines for protein consumption in the world. I've seen authoritative claims that you need 0.5 g/lb, I've seen authoritative claims that you need 2.5 g/lb, and everything in between. I figure out how much I need at any given point through trial and error and adding more until I start making progress again, which is frankly what everyone should just be doing rather than sticking to an arbitrary guideline.
I’m going to respectfully disagree with you and leave it at that.
Regarding pain while you’re lifting, the body is a funny thing. Pain is multi-factorial. Sometimes it’s related directly to what you’re doing and sometimes it’s because you are sad about something that happened that day.
When you’re faced with an acute pain while lifting, sometimes it’s worth it to step back and ask yourself how well you’re recovered. Have you been sleeping well? Eating enough? Fully hydrated? If yes to all those, it’s sometimes worth it to tell your body to shut the fuck up and go at it. Lifting weights requires a certain degree of aggression. Don’t let your mind trick you into otherwise.
I’m going to respectfully disagree with you and leave it at that.
Regarding pain while you’re lifting, the body is a funny thing. Pain is multi-factorial. Sometimes it’s related directly to what you’re doing and sometimes it’s because you are sad about something that happened that day.
When you’re faced with an acute pain while lifting, sometimes it’s worth it to step back and ask yourself how well you’re recovered. Have you been sleeping well? Eating enough? Fully hydrated? If yes to all those, it’s sometimes worth it to tell your body to shut the fuck up and go at it. Lifting weights requires a certain degree of aggression. Don’t let your mind trick you into otherwise.
You can respectfully disagree all you like, but the scientists and trainers who study this stuff for a living can't even agree on a consensus optimized protein intake, the primary literature gives numbers that are all over the place. It's not well understood and frankly the idea that one standard would apply to every person doesn't even make sense on its face, given what we understand about how different bodies can be from one another. Confidently asserting "this is the correct number" is goofy.
Regarding your second point, lifting through pain is absolutely not correct. Lifting through discomfort is fine if it's just muscle fatigue, but you should never lift through sharp or immediate pain. That's how you end up with injuries. This is actively dangerous advice.
I guess the title undermines my point, slightly, but here are some salient cited sources;
• Tarnopolsky et al. (1992) observed no differences in whole body protein synthesis or indexes of lean body mass in strength athletes consuming either 0.64g/lb or 1.10g/lb over a 2 week period. Protein oxidation did increase in the high protein group, indicating a nutrient overload.
• Walberg et al. (1988) found that 0.73g/lb was sufficient to maintain positive nitrogen balance in cutting weightlifters over a 7 day time period.
• Tarnopolsky et al. (1988) found that only 0.37g/lb was required to maintain positive nitrogen balance in elite bodybuilders (over 5 years of experience, possible previous use of androgens) over a 10 day period. 0.45g/lb was sufficient to maintain lean body mass in bodybuilders over a 2 week period. The authors suggested that 0.55g/lb was sufficient for bodybuilders.
• Lemon et al. (1992) found no differences in muscle mass or strength gains in novice bodybuilders consuming either 0.61g/lb or 1.19g/lb over a 4 week period. Based on nitrogen balance data, the authors recommended 0.75g/lb.
• Hoffman et al. (2006) found no differences in body composition, strength or resting hormonal concentrations in strength athletes consuming either 0.77g/lb or >0.91g/lb over a 3 month period.
Okay, your turn.
I was giving Juggernut a framework to use to evaluate what is going on since he often talks about struggling with weights he deems trivial and a lot of his issues are probably related to proper recovery. You told him to eat more protein to deal with his glute pain.
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3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
Higher protein intakes (2.3-3.1 g/kg/d) may be needed to maximize the retention of lean body mass in resistance-trained subjects during hypocaloric periods.There is novel evidence that suggests higher protein intakes (>3.0 g/kg/d) may have positive effects on body composition in resistance-trained individuals (i.e., promote loss of fat mass).
There is no one standard and no one number to tell people to shoot for. Everyone needs to feel out for themselves what their body and exercise regimen require.
3cl1ps3 on
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3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
Separately, I don't know if you genuinely misinterpreted my post to Jugg or are just making strawman to argue against, but I certainly did not tell him to eat protein to cope with pain. I very specifically said if he'd felt hard stuck for awhile, re evaluating his macros might be useful. I'm very happy to discuss this stuff, but please respond to what I actually said, not a bad faith version of my post.
Most of the people in the thread are hobbyists and enthusiasts without real professional qualifications, with at least one exception, so I think it's fair to offer anecdotal evidence and advice but I'd hesitate about making absolute statements about what someone else said unless you're really, really sure.
Lifting through pain is a good example, anyone who's been doing this for a while has dealt with and around nagging soreness or joints that get funny, it's just part of the game. You learn lessons through experience and I think a lot of us have learned lessons about what we can and can't do and should and shouldn't do, sharing that isn't a bad thing. It's up to the person receiving the advice to evaluate it and accept it or not but I don't think anybody here is trying to be irresponsible or is giving advice in bad faith.
The blurb you posted uses retention of lean muscle mass and body composition as the measurable result. What does that have to do with muscle growth, which is what I was talking about and the point you were initially responding to.
Your point about evaluating his macros is wrong and is not why he is struggling because he is clearly eating a sufficient amount of protein to support muscle growth, which is supported by literally every study both of us have posted. His issues, if you have followed the history of his posting, are elsewhere.
Gork on
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3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
I posted it above! Linked both the pubmed URL (which is really just he abstract and the DOI, etc) and the article directly. It's a big paper and it itself includes all the citations it's pulling the numbers from. That quote is from one portion of the abstract and is discussed in more detail in the latter half of the paper
I'm getting the sense that you want to argue just to argue, so I'm gonna bow out of this particular discussion.
I’m going to respectfully disagree with you and leave it at that.
Regarding pain while you’re lifting, the body is a funny thing. Pain is multi-factorial. Sometimes it’s related directly to what you’re doing and sometimes it’s because you are sad about something that happened that day.
When you’re faced with an acute pain while lifting, sometimes it’s worth it to step back and ask yourself how well you’re recovered. Have you been sleeping well? Eating enough? Fully hydrated? If yes to all those, it’s sometimes worth it to tell your body to shut the fuck up and go at it. Lifting weights requires a certain degree of aggression. Don’t let your mind trick you into otherwise.
Knowing the difference between it feels hard because you're not in good condition today, it feels hard because you're injured or about to injure yourself, and it feels hard because it is hard so grit your teeth and push through, is such an important skill for anyone trying to do physical training/sports.
The problem is that acute, repeated injury also fucks that skill up a lot; repeated back problems means you ain't ever gonna grind out that last rep. And that is reasonable but it does suck when what you want to do is try really hard without fear.
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MrMonroepassed outon the floor nowRegistered Userregular
I would certainly like to believe that more like .5g/lb/day is an effective number because as a 195lb guy, the idea of maintaining 195g protein per day is extremely difficult without your caloric intake being made up of like 50% protein powder.
Just going to lob two cents in from the sidelines here, but focus too much on macros and you miss a lot of stuff that might have benefits for your general health and thus your performance level; leafy green vegetables, fermented stuff, resistant starches etc.
Just going to lob two cents in from the sidelines here, but focus too much on macros and you miss a lot of stuff that might have benefits for your general health and thus your performance level; leafy green vegetables, fermented stuff, resistant starches etc.
That's definitely true, getting a good diet overall is super important to keep the whole machine working.
I would certainly like to believe that more like .5g/lb/day is an effective number because as a 195lb guy, the idea of maintaining 195g protein per day is extremely difficult without your caloric intake being made up of like 50% protein powder.
It's really just what your body needs for the regimen you're asking it to do. Some people are gonna need more, some people are gonna need less. Everyone needs to feel out for themselves what their sweet spot is. Trying to go by the literature is just going to result in trying to decide which of a dozen competing standards you should use (as evidenced by last page, heh).
The reason I brought it up in the first place is because I fell into the trap of setting myself at "this is how much I need" awhile ago, and then got basically hard stuck and felt like shit for awhile and the only thing that ended up helping was re-evaluating and upping my protein intake. So it's a useful thing to always keep in the back of one's mind because, at least in my experience, it's not necessarily set it and forget it, your biology's requirements might change over time.
Lunges are the devil. I did a few rounds of a lunge complex after squats today (10 walking, 10 front, 10 back, 10 side) and my quads are trashed. I knew there was a reason I'd been skipping leg day.
Everybody just quiet down and get on gear, problem solved
Actually got blood work done the other day to try and get insurance approved TRT. 1st draw in the afternoon—low as f. 2nd draw two weeks later in the AM, nearly double the PM draw.
So none for me yet.
Protein arguing: 1g pro per lb lean body mass. So if you weigh 200lbs and have 20% body fat you should be eating around 160g pro give or take. Depending on your needs and goals, maybe more maybe less. There is a good chance though that unless you’re tracking your workouts, the protein isn’t holding you back so much as sleep and recovery.
diablo III - beardsnbeer#1508 Mechwarrior Online - Rusty Bock
My ass feels better. Weirdly enough I found that doing standing kickbacks whenever I was loitering at work and then really focusing on squeezing the glute to move my leg provided almost instant relief. Way better than anything else. I've been coming around to the idea that a lot of my potential back issues are, in actuality, caused by weak gluteal muscles.
Today is my first scheduled day back in the gym and it kicks off with squats which has me nervous. I think I'm going to use cable kickbacks though as an activation move before my squat sets and then maybe a finisher at the end of a workout. Really make sure my glutes are working and I'm building a better mind-muscle connection.
I asked about at least checking my T level at my last GP visit but the doc said I'd have to say I have ED for them to check it and I don't want that on my record just yet. I'm going to circle back around with the insurance company before my next visit to see if that's true, I'm not asking for her to prescribe me anything but I'd like to know what my levels are
I asked about at least checking my T level at my last GP visit but the doc said I'd have to say I have ED for them to check it and I don't want that on my record just yet. I'm going to circle back around with the insurance company before my next visit to see if that's true, I'm not asking for her to prescribe me anything but I'd like to know what my levels are
That's kind of a weird thing for them to say, but there is nothing wrong with having something like that on your record.
Hell, this thread is having me think about getting checked as well (42 years old). My old man has some seriously low T and has been prescribed the fix, but he refuses to take it. "I don't see a difference" Yea, well, you're a foggy and forgetful general pain in the ass when you're not on it so while you might not realize it, Mom is about to kill you with a grapefruit spoon and I'll help hide the body.
3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
edited January 2023
Well, if Peen doesn't have ED he probably shouldn't lie to doctors in the hopes of getting a testosterone prescription. That does strike me as an odd bellwether, though; plenty of people with normal testosterone levels have ED, and vice versa.
But in general I would also say unless you're having actual health issues (such as Ziplock's dad), it's probably not something you need to worry about? Especially if you're under 60.
Eh, if your test drops and it makes your fitness and strength drop and that affects your training etc I think it's perfectly reasonable to get some TRT. I certainly shall be.
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3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
I would perhaps be more circumspect about outright admitting that you only want testosterone to use it as a PED, not for health reasons.
It's not a really standard blood test to get, so I would definitely expect insurance to refuse to cover it unless you report potentially related symptoms.
If you want to pay out of pocket, I bet they'd go ahead with it. Aren't there a boatload of men's health clinics that are largely based around prescribing test for people with borderline low levels? I assume it's expensive.
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3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
I know getting testosterone as a trans dude can require jumping through a ton of hoops and be very expensive without insurance covering it. I'm not sure if it's easier or harder as a cis dude. Probably easier because western society specifically hates trans people.
I goofed and today isn't legs it's upper push day. My bench is real weak again. I was shooting for 275 at one point and now I'm clocking like, 205? I've still got this weird strain in my right bicep/shoulder that's keeping me unstable on my bench.
Edit: holy shit I love Larsen Presses tho.
Double edit: hot damn rotational cable moves are absurd. I did cable pull arounds for my chest and cable lateral raises for the delts like usual except I pivoted away from the bottom of the stretch and then pivoted my trunk back straight at the top of the stretch. So I was always keeping absolute maximum tension on the muscle regardless of the range of motion.
As a cis-het white dude I have "anti-aging" clinics tripping all over themselves to advertise to me and I'm not even 40 yet (six months to go, thank you). It wouldn't take a lot of work and probably moderate money to get T and eventually HGH prescribed to me, there's a whole industry around it.
People use all kinds of things to improve their quality of life and I'm never going to the Olympics or major leagues in anything so I won't feel remotely guilty if I want some HRT to have a little more energy and the same athletic performance I got in my 20s (which is nothing to brag about). Frankly I think it's odd to worry about talking about it if it's given to you by a doctor to treat a set of symptoms.
Peen on
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3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
Oh, I'm more just thinking that if a dude Solar's age (he's in his 20's IIRC) walks into a doctor's office and says he wants testosterone just to improve weight lifting performance with no clinical symptoms, they're gonna tell him to take a hike.
Oh, I'm more just thinking that if a dude Solar's age (he's in his 20's IIRC) walks into a doctor's office and says he wants testosterone just to improve weight lifting performance with no clinical symptoms, they're gonna tell him to take a hike.
Probably because it would be good for his legs. The dude is a walking triangle.
No seriously, Solar, you're killing it out there and I'm positive that between that and the accent Charlotte, NC didn't stand a chance
Ohh sure, gotcha. To be clear also, the only way I'm taking anything will be if my insurance pays for it and it's a low dose. I think I should be entitled to whatever information I want to have about my body, within reason, and the whole conversation with the doc irked me (I already have to have the awful BMI conversation and the "you're almost 40 so expect statins and Colonoscopies soon" conversation).
Oh, I'm more just thinking that if a dude Solar's age (he's in his 20's IIRC) walks into a doctor's office and says he wants testosterone just to improve weight lifting performance with no clinical symptoms, they're gonna tell him to take a hike.
Posts
Regarding pain while you’re lifting, the body is a funny thing. Pain is multi-factorial. Sometimes it’s related directly to what you’re doing and sometimes it’s because you are sad about something that happened that day.
When you’re faced with an acute pain while lifting, sometimes it’s worth it to step back and ask yourself how well you’re recovered. Have you been sleeping well? Eating enough? Fully hydrated? If yes to all those, it’s sometimes worth it to tell your body to shut the fuck up and go at it. Lifting weights requires a certain degree of aggression. Don’t let your mind trick you into otherwise.
I'm fucked up enough as it is.
You can respectfully disagree all you like, but the scientists and trainers who study this stuff for a living can't even agree on a consensus optimized protein intake, the primary literature gives numbers that are all over the place. It's not well understood and frankly the idea that one standard would apply to every person doesn't even make sense on its face, given what we understand about how different bodies can be from one another. Confidently asserting "this is the correct number" is goofy.
Regarding your second point, lifting through pain is absolutely not correct. Lifting through discomfort is fine if it's just muscle fatigue, but you should never lift through sharp or immediate pain. That's how you end up with injuries. This is actively dangerous advice.
I guess the title undermines my point, slightly, but here are some salient cited sources;
• Tarnopolsky et al. (1992) observed no differences in whole body protein synthesis or indexes of lean body mass in strength athletes consuming either 0.64g/lb or 1.10g/lb over a 2 week period. Protein oxidation did increase in the high protein group, indicating a nutrient overload.
• Walberg et al. (1988) found that 0.73g/lb was sufficient to maintain positive nitrogen balance in cutting weightlifters over a 7 day time period.
• Tarnopolsky et al. (1988) found that only 0.37g/lb was required to maintain positive nitrogen balance in elite bodybuilders (over 5 years of experience, possible previous use of androgens) over a 10 day period. 0.45g/lb was sufficient to maintain lean body mass in bodybuilders over a 2 week period. The authors suggested that 0.55g/lb was sufficient for bodybuilders.
• Lemon et al. (1992) found no differences in muscle mass or strength gains in novice bodybuilders consuming either 0.61g/lb or 1.19g/lb over a 4 week period. Based on nitrogen balance data, the authors recommended 0.75g/lb.
• Hoffman et al. (2006) found no differences in body composition, strength or resting hormonal concentrations in strength athletes consuming either 0.77g/lb or >0.91g/lb over a 3 month period.
Okay, your turn.
I was giving Juggernut a framework to use to evaluate what is going on since he often talks about struggling with weights he deems trivial and a lot of his issues are probably related to proper recovery. You told him to eat more protein to deal with his glute pain.
There is no one standard and no one number to tell people to shoot for. Everyone needs to feel out for themselves what their body and exercise regimen require.
Lifting through pain is a good example, anyone who's been doing this for a while has dealt with and around nagging soreness or joints that get funny, it's just part of the game. You learn lessons through experience and I think a lot of us have learned lessons about what we can and can't do and should and shouldn't do, sharing that isn't a bad thing. It's up to the person receiving the advice to evaluate it and accept it or not but I don't think anybody here is trying to be irresponsible or is giving advice in bad faith.
Your point about evaluating his macros is wrong and is not why he is struggling because he is clearly eating a sufficient amount of protein to support muscle growth, which is supported by literally every study both of us have posted. His issues, if you have followed the history of his posting, are elsewhere.
I'm getting the sense that you want to argue just to argue, so I'm gonna bow out of this particular discussion.
Anyway.
Let us all have unbelievable gains in the year 2023.
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Knowing the difference between it feels hard because you're not in good condition today, it feels hard because you're injured or about to injure yourself, and it feels hard because it is hard so grit your teeth and push through, is such an important skill for anyone trying to do physical training/sports.
The problem is that acute, repeated injury also fucks that skill up a lot; repeated back problems means you ain't ever gonna grind out that last rep. And that is reasonable but it does suck when what you want to do is try really hard without fear.
I weigh 75 and I try to get a good 120 grams a day, varies a bit, but very doable. Mostly from non-whey where possible too
That's definitely true, getting a good diet overall is super important to keep the whole machine working.
It's really just what your body needs for the regimen you're asking it to do. Some people are gonna need more, some people are gonna need less. Everyone needs to feel out for themselves what their sweet spot is. Trying to go by the literature is just going to result in trying to decide which of a dozen competing standards you should use (as evidenced by last page, heh).
The reason I brought it up in the first place is because I fell into the trap of setting myself at "this is how much I need" awhile ago, and then got basically hard stuck and felt like shit for awhile and the only thing that ended up helping was re-evaluating and upping my protein intake. So it's a useful thing to always keep in the back of one's mind because, at least in my experience, it's not necessarily set it and forget it, your biology's requirements might change over time.
Bodies: are weird.
Actually got blood work done the other day to try and get insurance approved TRT. 1st draw in the afternoon—low as f. 2nd draw two weeks later in the AM, nearly double the PM draw.
So none for me yet.
Protein arguing: 1g pro per lb lean body mass. So if you weigh 200lbs and have 20% body fat you should be eating around 160g pro give or take. Depending on your needs and goals, maybe more maybe less. There is a good chance though that unless you’re tracking your workouts, the protein isn’t holding you back so much as sleep and recovery.
How old are you DL? Are you at an age where TRT would be unusual? I dunno how much HRT is tbh
Today is my first scheduled day back in the gym and it kicks off with squats which has me nervous. I think I'm going to use cable kickbacks though as an activation move before my squat sets and then maybe a finisher at the end of a workout. Really make sure my glutes are working and I'm building a better mind-muscle connection.
That's kind of a weird thing for them to say, but there is nothing wrong with having something like that on your record.
Hell, this thread is having me think about getting checked as well (42 years old). My old man has some seriously low T and has been prescribed the fix, but he refuses to take it. "I don't see a difference" Yea, well, you're a foggy and forgetful general pain in the ass when you're not on it so while you might not realize it, Mom is about to kill you with a grapefruit spoon and I'll help hide the body.
Anyway, yea....get your T checked gents.
But in general I would also say unless you're having actual health issues (such as Ziplock's dad), it's probably not something you need to worry about? Especially if you're under 60.
If you want to pay out of pocket, I bet they'd go ahead with it. Aren't there a boatload of men's health clinics that are largely based around prescribing test for people with borderline low levels? I assume it's expensive.
There are some studies that indicate that it might be hereditary, so I should probably talk to a doc just to check and maybe establish a baseline.
Edit: holy shit I love Larsen Presses tho.
Double edit: hot damn rotational cable moves are absurd. I did cable pull arounds for my chest and cable lateral raises for the delts like usual except I pivoted away from the bottom of the stretch and then pivoted my trunk back straight at the top of the stretch. So I was always keeping absolute maximum tension on the muscle regardless of the range of motion.
Dang.
Damn.
People use all kinds of things to improve their quality of life and I'm never going to the Olympics or major leagues in anything so I won't feel remotely guilty if I want some HRT to have a little more energy and the same athletic performance I got in my 20s (which is nothing to brag about). Frankly I think it's odd to worry about talking about it if it's given to you by a doctor to treat a set of symptoms.
Probably because it would be good for his legs. The dude is a walking triangle.
You flatter me, I'm 33