[Tabletop Games] Fourth Edition Clocks

The Zombie Penguin

Tabletop Games! Lancer! Blades in the Dark! Costume Fairy Adventures! Icon! Gubat Banwa! ICON! Pathfinder! Mörk Borg!

There's so fucking many! Talk about them here!

Oh, and DnD, I guess. (Warning, talking about DnD may lead to strange discussions where we get try and rebuild it entirely. Again.)

The Zombie Penguin

Anyway, the clocks discussion is really interesting to me because it shows how much the flavour or feel of any given abstraction matters.

Ttrpgs are so very vibes based, it's very amusing

Tynnan

Something I appreciate about FitD games is the inter-compatibility of playbooks from different games. Based on some narrative events in my Scum and Villainy game, I might pitch to the Muscle player that she can complete a long term project clock to train the alien pet she “liberated” from a petting zoo. When she does, she can access the BitD Hound’s ability, Ghost Hunter, to represent her new hunting companion.

The Zombie Penguin

Tynnan wrote: »

Something I appreciate about FitD games is the inter-compatibility of playbooks from different games. Based on some narrative events in my Scum and Villainy game, I might pitch to the Muscle player that she can complete a long term project clock to train the alien pet she “liberated” from a petting zoo. When she does, she can access the BitD Hound’s ability, Ghost Hunter, to represent her new hunting companion.

Stuff like this is cool as shit.

Actually, here's a question for you @Tynnan - From what i know of FitD style games, my Grand Beast Generator would work pretty well for creating stuff for them, yeah?

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tjFUTVmkVfR2U7Qorp9dDMnumATrBpXPFvzkW1XWpZU/edit?usp=sharing

Is this the sort of tool you could or would use?

It's been on my mind to tinker with it more and maybe try and get it towards some kind of publishable and sell for money state at some point

Tynnan

Probably! I’m at work so I can’t scrutinize it right now, but I’ll have a look after I’m done. I remember poking around in there a while back though and I liked what I saw.

gavindel

So anyways here's my small tweak for DnD

Post 1 of 238...

The Zombie Penguin

gavindel wrote: »

So anyways here's my small tweak for DnD

Post 1 of 238...

I'll keep "Just One Small Change" in mind for a future thread title edit.

Straightzi

My expanded clock thoughts.

I think there are roughly three things that are all called clocks, and they're all slightly different from one another. I know I personally am a fan of some while not really liking others.

The first is the one that I'd call ersatz HP. This is the skill challenge, the door with hit points you need to lockpick your way past, your enemy in a FitD game that needs at least eight clock segments filled to be taken down. At their best, I think they can be useful - providing a room level situation where multiple approaches can help fill the clock. But if there is only one real approach (or if other approaches wouldn't work on the same clock - it's hard for one party member to smoothtalk where another is already punching), then it does just kind of become the bland abstraction of hit points. Personally I use them occasionally as planned things, but I'd generally rather add in other complications instead of turning a basic challenge into a clock based ones.

The second is what I'm going to call minute hands. This is the clock that you don't want to fill, the consequence clock of "guards show up" or "self destruct sequence activates". Typically these would be used as like, a consequence for a roll that doesn't immediately cause harm, but instead lends its weight to a bigger harm coming down the line in the future. You can also use them against the ersatz HP clocks as a form of racing, trying to get one thing done before another happens. These are my favorite clocks, they're great for adding tension to a scene without directly making things harder, having one of these open is always good for a devil's bargain, that sort of thing. I generally want them fully exposed to the players, tell them exactly what clock is filling (although I will say if you usually do this it makes it all the better when you do have a hidden clock, because your players will treat it with that weight). I also think having them exposed saves you from narrating what each tick on the clock means - maybe at halfway you give a description, but you don't need to constantly be saying how many yards away the enemy patrol is or how long there is left on the timer or whatever.

The third is, naturally, hour hands. These are the big campaign style clocks that were kind of where the concept started. Every mission you lean on a specific contact, their clock ticks, every time you ignore a present danger, its clock ticks, the thrumming clockwork of the world around you passively ticking. I think these can be good for a specific sort of game and also I find them incredibly frustrating for telling a story. At least with my group, I find players are either completely unaware of them or entirely hyperfixated on them, neither of which is really a useful state. I frequently would end up ditching or ignoring them in my game halfway through. I think with the right GM and the right group, a few well designed hour hand clocks can work well for big looming threats and long term projects, but I also think designing functional versions of them can be very difficult.

Tynnan

For the hour-hand clocks, I typically never show them to my players. They’re purely to help me keep track of the world and to inspire new ideas for my NPC factions.

Duke 2.0

I like a campaign structure of having ~3 choices of thing to do this session, the other two things assumed to either lapse, done by other groups or escalated. Especially with three sorta antagonist tracks where the less one is dealt with the more it becomes the big boss to end things.

The Zombie Penguin

Musing: it's really interesting how common the "small humanoid spirit" motif is in mythology & folklore.

Pech, kobolds, brownies, etc.

Kobolds having three varieties, one for the home, one for the mines and one for the boats is particularly cute and appealing.

Not sure where I'm going with this, but it's itching at my brain.

Straightzi

Tynnan wrote: »

For the hour-hand clocks, I typically never show them to my players. They’re purely to help me keep track of the world and to inspire new ideas for my NPC factions.

I find if I don't show them to my players then I'll be doing session prep and feel like my hands are tied with things that "have to happen" once they get filled. That's on me, of course, but I do consider it a distinct risk of using them.

Whereas if I did show them to my players they would live in fear of that clock filling and expend every possible resource to prevent it from happening. Which is a story, sure, but when it's a small passive thing or intended to just presage something big coming down the line eventually, is a bit disappointing.

Rhesus Positive

The Zombie Penguin wrote: »

Musing: it's really interesting how common the "small humanoid spirit" motif is in mythology & folklore.

Pech, kobolds, brownies, etc.

Kobolds having three varieties, one for the home, one for the mines and one for the boats is particularly cute and appealing.

Not sure where I'm going with this, but it's itching at my brain.

My Ars Magica group is encountering a brownie at the moment for their first adventure

Only it's gone slightly rogue and is helping the inn where it lives by scaring horses into throwing their riders so they go inside to recover

In Yorkshire, mischievous brownies are known as boggarts (and a horse that panics for no reason is said to have "taken boggart"), so it's the first "no, not like Harry Potter" of the campaign

DarkPrimus

WRT 4e having proto-clocks, the skill challenges had certain number of failures that could end a skill challenge that was tallied alongside successes.

Now, in FitD this could be represented as a separate clock representing a threat when they don't succeed on a check, which just feels a bit more intuitive than trying to think of successes and failures as two parallel tallies running in the "same" thing.

Really, the clock/pie chart representation is just good, intuitive visual design for everyone to understand how involved a thing is going to be to trigger, and how far along it is.

Centipede Damascus

The Zombie Penguin wrote: »

Musing: it's really interesting how common the "small humanoid spirit" motif is in mythology & folklore.

Pech, kobolds, brownies, etc.

Kobolds having three varieties, one for the home, one for the mines and one for the boats is particularly cute and appealing.

Not sure where I'm going with this, but it's itching at my brain.

In Slavic countries, you have the Domovoi (Russian) / Domovyk (Ukrainian) / Domowik (Polish), who are a household spirit like the Brownie but are also the spirit of the patriarch of the family who sticks around to make sure their home is well kept, which is an interesting twist.

Fencingsax

They are very old ideas, the Romans had the Lares and Penates.

Albino Bunny

Straightzi wrote: »

Tynnan wrote: »

For the hour-hand clocks, I typically never show them to my players. They’re purely to help me keep track of the world and to inspire new ideas for my NPC factions.

I find if I don't show them to my players then I'll be doing session prep and feel like my hands are tied with things that "have to happen" once they get filled. That's on me, of course, but I do consider it a distinct risk of using them.

Whereas if I did show them to my players they would live in fear of that clock filling and expend every possible resource to prevent it from happening. Which is a story, sure, but when it's a small passive thing or intended to just presage something big coming down the line eventually, is a bit disappointing.

Two possible fixes:

A) Have the clock filling just being 'evaluate if this is important/needs to happen'. Sometimes what the clock represents can organically shift on a campaign scale and that's fine. Even if that means it's far less of an event when it goes off.

Do a tug off war clock: Two opposing clocks that pull segments from eachother for two diffeerent events/outcomes. If your players are gonna fixate on the campaign clocks then encourage them to set their own in motion so it's not just prevention.

Neveron

I'd argue that the idea of "Little Dudes What Live In Your House and Secretly Help/Hurt You" is just kind of universal?
it's just putting a more personable face on the idea of invisible spirits that need to be appeased lest they make your milk go bad, and if you make them happy then they'll make sure the cow gives twice as much as usual.
they're just a handy excuse for why bad/good things happen for no particular reason, really

on a related note, people should put more brownies and whatnot in actual houses and not just out in the faerie forest. Make the keen-eyed rogue notice something sneaking about in the dark of the tavern, have the wizard's hat be all scrunched up in the morning because he insulted the bartender, etc. etc.

Glazius

Apocalypse World has an interesting design philosophy that I didn't want to get buried on the last page of a locked thread, so here's a nice little diagram from Vincent's game design series:



So the most important things to know and practice as a GM are how the conversation works and how to put your principles and agenda into play. Built around that are the dice philosophy, the generic player moves, and the GM reactions. Built around that are the specifics of playbooks, gear, and individual GM threats. And your own customization is an outer shell.

If at any time you're uncertain about the specifics of an outer layer you can fall back and the game will generally continue to work, because the core of the game is the conversation and your principles. Or, as with Blades in the Dark or Apocalypse Keys, since the core itself is philosophical and not mechanical, you can transplant it into a different set of mechanics and still make it work.

The Zombie Penguin

Neveron wrote: »

I'd argue that the idea of "Little Dudes What Live In Your House and Secretly Help/Hurt You" is just kind of universal?
it's just putting a more personable face on the idea of invisible spirits that need to be appeased lest they make your milk go bad, and if you make them happy then they'll make sure the cow gives twice as much as usual.
they're just a handy excuse for why bad/good things happen for no particular reason, really

on a related note, people should put more brownies and whatnot in actual houses and not just out in the faerie forest. Make the keen-eyed rogue notice something sneaking about in the dark of the tavern, have the wizard's hat be all scrunched up in the morning because he insulted the bartender, etc. etc.

Its certainly a universal in European folklore and mythology. I don't know enough about other cultures traditions to say.

In general I wish fantasy settings leaned into the fantastic more- not necessarily in being big high magic displays, but in the low level stuff like house spirits.

Its one reason I really dig the Monster Hunter games where there's a ton of world building around how monster bits are used and how monster ecology works, with the hunter's guild both serving as a way to ensure hunts are conducted safely - but also to regulate hunting and over hunting. (To the point you can find references to guild assassins sent after poachers. To be fair, when poaching could bring an elder dragon down on a village, this makes sense).

There were some nice little details like Rust Monsters fighting over scrap metal like rats in Honour Among Thieves that I appreciated.

House spirits seem like they're a really rich space to explore in general, especially for more grounded games that are focusing on low level stakes and outcomes

The Zombie Penguin

Also, fiddling more with that abyss concept i shared in the last thread, and writing it up further. Thinking about things like the weather down there (Gale force winds! Lava rain! Normal rain! Doldrums!), speculation on why the first few kilometers on the abyss are perfectly smooth, and self-regenerate to that state nearly instantly - Was a god's dying curse? The abyss trying to keep it's children inside itself? Mortal beliefs changing over the yearss and making it harder for abyss dwellers to get back to the material plane? Who knoooows~

Fairly pleased with what i'm comming up with. No idea what i'll do with it, but seems like the sort of thing that might be fun to release as some sort of roleplay supplement or something

This also makes it the second time i've played with demons as a concept - It's interesting seeing the overlap in these ones (Fire, entropy-via-high energy states, general destruction, "evil" in the sense of there's no common ground to be found with them) vs the ones i came up wtih for Terra Incognita, which were Destruction Elementals, explicitly not evil, just strange to deal with. I should really write them up properly too, they're also a good concept.

Straightzi

With the upper levels regenerating, is the abyss like a wound? A puncture in the skin of reality (or the skin of morality, perhaps), gone septic. The skin keeps attempting to heal over but the infection is too strong on the inside and keeps ripping its way back out.

The Zombie Penguin

Straightzi wrote: »

With the upper levels regenerating, is the abyss like a wound? A puncture in the skin of reality (or the skin of morality, perhaps), gone septic. The skin keeps attempting to heal over but the infection is too strong on the inside and keeps ripping its way back out.

That would also work! Its one of those I think better left with a bunch of options for people to pick and choose from for what their need is - sometimes the question is way more interesting than the answer.

Edit: Also demons spawn from the depths, while devils come from the walls.

Dr. Chaos

Alright, playing my DnD game and I was hoping you guys could settle something.

As a druid, Is revealing a druidic language even exists at all some sort of major faux pas? Not speaking or teaching it...just acknowledging that its a skill we have or pointing it out when the party would get confused by why I'm suddenly moon speaking some day.

Another player got annoyed at me like I was kind of being oblivious and he couldn't believe I just did that and I just kept thinking "...who cares?"

Its not like I was handing out mountains of pamphlets teaching people how to speaking it.

Just felt like kind of a non thing?

Straightzi

The Zombie Penguin wrote: »

Straightzi wrote: »

With the upper levels regenerating, is the abyss like a wound? A puncture in the skin of reality (or the skin of morality, perhaps), gone septic. The skin keeps attempting to heal over but the infection is too strong on the inside and keeps ripping its way back out.

That would also work! Its one of those I think better left with a bunch of options for people to pick and choose from for what their need is - sometimes the question is way more interesting than the answer.

Edit: Also demons spawn from the depths, while devils come from the walls.

Mmm, I think I was thinking of Christian devils, and having them be the ones who caused the wound in their rebellion

The Zombie Penguin

Dr. Chaos wrote: »

Alright, playing my DnD game and I was hoping you guys could settle something.

As a druid, Is revealing a druidic language even exists at all some sort of major faux pas?

Another player got annoyed at me like I was the biggest dumbass and he couldn't believe I just did that and I was like "oh my god..who cares?".

You would think I was handing out mountains of pamphlets teaching people how to speaking it from the way they reacted.

Feels ridiculous.

Tbh without knowing anything about your game and it's setting/lore this is completely contextless as to be meaningless.

The real issue seems to be you've got a brewing inter personal conflict going, and that's not really something you can sort in-game. Better to try and talk it out with the player, or bring it up with your DM to arbitrate.

That player seems to have some set beliefs, and handled stuff in a less than fun fashion for you

Albino Bunny

That's something the GM should answer and if the GM has no strong opinions on it should default to the druid player as being able to define their own fiction.

Dr. Chaos

The Zombie Penguin wrote: »

Dr. Chaos wrote: »

Alright, playing my DnD game and I was hoping you guys could settle something.

As a druid, Is revealing a druidic language even exists at all some sort of major faux pas?

Another player got annoyed at me like I was the biggest dumbass and he couldn't believe I just did that and I was like "oh my god..who cares?".

You would think I was handing out mountains of pamphlets teaching people how to speaking it from the way they reacted.

Feels ridiculous.

Tbh without knowing anything about your game and it's setting/lore this is completely contextless as to be meaningless.

The real issue seems to be you've got a brewing inter personal conflict going, and that's not really something you can sort in-game. Better to try and talk it out with the player, or bring it up with your DM to arbitrate.

That player seems to have some set beliefs, and handled stuff in a less than fun fashion for you

Its the greyhawk setting but neither him or I super familar with it to be honest so I was looking for sort of a "druids in dnd in general" second opinion on it.

Me and him actually get along fine for the most part. Whole group is pretty chill.

Albino Bunny

Dumb wizard stuff: Very annoyed Leomund's Tiny Hut technically isn't an illusion so my wizard can't RAW define it as some weird holo deck style situation in a 10ft sphere that adjusts things easily to individual occupants perception.

Good wizard stuff: My GM doesn't care and I think kind of enjoys all the dumb little ways I describe illusion magic nonsense.

Also I got to use Creation to almost instagib an Imperial warforged by turning my cloak into a steel boulder to throw down the stairs.

RELtastic

Really love the FitD set of games. Is there one that is set up to model a revolution? Vanilla Blades is close, but the idea of Vice and the flavoring of the playbooks isn't exactly what I'm looking for.

Albino Bunny

There's a rebel crew playbook in Blades' extra stuff, a cyberpunk game that could certainly code some crews as nominally good rebels.

Realistically I think making the campaign format for that would require a new game just like my dumb Star Gate atlantis FITD pitch would.

Straightzi

RELtastic wrote: »

Really love the FitD set of games. Is there one that is set up to model a revolution? Vanilla Blades is close, but the idea of Vice and the flavoring of the playbooks isn't exactly what I'm looking for.

There's the Blades setting supplement Broken Spire (semi-official, by Sean Nittner) that provides a campaign template for taking down the Immortal Emperor, but that's for a like, very specific form of rebellion overall. There's also a fan supplement called Steelweaver's Rebellion, which gives you a new crew type and some adventure material. Both of those are going to rely on the standard BitD playbooks though.

There's also Brinkwood: The Blood of Tyrants, which is a FitD game that is based around the players as fey-touched revolutionaries fighting against a bloodthirsty vampiric overclass. It's very overt about what it's doing, and I don't love some of the rules changes made from core Blades, but I do think it overall works.

RELtastic

Thanks, I'll look in to those! None seem to fit perfectly, but I knew that was unlikely anyway!

Tynnan

It’s not FitD system, but there’s also Spire: The City Must Fall: https://rowanrookanddecard.com/product/spire-rpg/

Revolutionaries climb a tower to overthrow an oppressive regime. If you don’t play the game itself, you could use setting elements for inspiration.

The Zombie Penguin

Straightzi wrote: »

The Zombie Penguin wrote: »

Straightzi wrote: »

With the upper levels regenerating, is the abyss like a wound? A puncture in the skin of reality (or the skin of morality, perhaps), gone septic. The skin keeps attempting to heal over but the infection is too strong on the inside and keeps ripping its way back out.

That would also work! Its one of those I think better left with a bunch of options for people to pick and choose from for what their need is - sometimes the question is way more interesting than the answer.

Edit: Also demons spawn from the depths, while devils come from the walls.

Mmm, I think I was thinking of Christian devils, and having them be the ones who caused the wound in their rebellion

Makes sense. I'm fairly intentionally doing something that's somewhat distinct? Ish? From Christian devils.

Though from what I know of The Screwtape Letters and my pitch of "Every devil is a depressed office drone putting on a glamorous front", there's absolutely some overlap.

Straightzi

I've not played it or read it since like, very early drafts, but Mutants in the Night might also be worth a look. It's going for Days of Future Past X-Men vibe I believe, and has some fighting back against those in power elements.

And in non FitD spaces, I would generally recommend Misspent Youth, a game about fighting the man.

Albino Bunny

Also for rebel stuff is Sigmata where you're super powered American's fighting fascism in the 80's.

Main draw back is that it sincerely tries to pose how capital owners and libertarian militias need to be part of the resistance and wouldn't uh, be on side with the nationalist fascist state.

admanb

Albino Bunny wrote: »

Also for rebel stuff is Sigmata where you're super powered American's fighting fascism in the 80's.

Main draw back is that it sincerely tries to pose how capital owners and libertarian militias need to be part of the resistance and wouldn't uh, be on side with the nationalist fascist state.

yeah unfortunately that's because the author of SIGMATA is a horseshoe theory dipshit.

Kane Red Robe

Dr. Chaos wrote: »

The Zombie Penguin wrote: »

Dr. Chaos wrote: »

Alright, playing my DnD game and I was hoping you guys could settle something.

As a druid, Is revealing a druidic language even exists at all some sort of major faux pas?

Another player got annoyed at me like I was the biggest dumbass and he couldn't believe I just did that and I was like "oh my god..who cares?".

You would think I was handing out mountains of pamphlets teaching people how to speaking it from the way they reacted.

Feels ridiculous.

Tbh without knowing anything about your game and it's setting/lore this is completely contextless as to be meaningless.

The real issue seems to be you've got a brewing inter personal conflict going, and that's not really something you can sort in-game. Better to try and talk it out with the player, or bring it up with your DM to arbitrate.

That player seems to have some set beliefs, and handled stuff in a less than fun fashion for you

Its the greyhawk setting but neither him or I super familar with it to be honest so I was looking for sort of a "druids in dnd in general" second opinion on it.

Me and him actually get along fine for the most part. Whole group is pretty chill.

Per RAW Greyhawk a Druid who teaches druidic to a non-druid loses their class abilities (including spellcasting). Nothing is stated about speaking druidic in front of non-druids or confirming the existence of the secret language.

So while I would say it's ultimately up to you and the DM how secretive your sect is about the matter you haven't done anything wrong per the rulebook.

Fencingsax

Dr. Chaos wrote: »

The Zombie Penguin wrote: »

Dr. Chaos wrote: »

Alright, playing my DnD game and I was hoping you guys could settle something.

As a druid, Is revealing a druidic language even exists at all some sort of major faux pas?

Another player got annoyed at me like I was the biggest dumbass and he couldn't believe I just did that and I was like "oh my god..who cares?".

You would think I was handing out mountains of pamphlets teaching people how to speaking it from the way they reacted.

Feels ridiculous.

Tbh without knowing anything about your game and it's setting/lore this is completely contextless as to be meaningless.

The real issue seems to be you've got a brewing inter personal conflict going, and that's not really something you can sort in-game. Better to try and talk it out with the player, or bring it up with your DM to arbitrate.

That player seems to have some set beliefs, and handled stuff in a less than fun fashion for you

Its the greyhawk setting but neither him or I super familar with it to be honest so I was looking for sort of a "druids in dnd in general" second opinion on it.

Me and him actually get along fine for the most part. Whole group is pretty chill.

My assumption is that most people are aware that druids are weird hermit types that occasionally congregate, so a secret society language isn't that far beyond the pale. Now, knowing any of the words without proper training might get you turned into lichen or something, so they deliberately don't know any of it, but as far as being aware that a language exists, sure. It's like thieves' cant. Obviously those slippery bastards have a way to communicate, but no one wants to learn any of it because you'll get your throat cut.

Anti-Sean

Dr. Chaos wrote: »

The Zombie Penguin wrote: »

Dr. Chaos wrote: »

Alright, playing my DnD game and I was hoping you guys could settle something.

As a druid, Is revealing a druidic language even exists at all some sort of major faux pas?

Another player got annoyed at me like I was the biggest dumbass and he couldn't believe I just did that and I was like "oh my god..who cares?".

You would think I was handing out mountains of pamphlets teaching people how to speaking it from the way they reacted.

Feels ridiculous.

Tbh without knowing anything about your game and it's setting/lore this is completely contextless as to be meaningless.

The real issue seems to be you've got a brewing inter personal conflict going, and that's not really something you can sort in-game. Better to try and talk it out with the player, or bring it up with your DM to arbitrate.

That player seems to have some set beliefs, and handled stuff in a less than fun fashion for you

Its the greyhawk setting but neither him or I super familar with it to be honest so I was looking for sort of a "druids in dnd in general" second opinion on it.

Me and him actually get along fine for the most part. Whole group is pretty chill.

Hopefully you can resolve this; it would be a shame for the other player to miss the forest for the trees.