That’s kinda, like, the whole issue. There’s all this argument that the Bak’u are “hogging” immortality, but…they’re not. They’re not exploiting it, because they have neither the ability nor inclination to do so, but there is nothing to suggest they would prevent (or even be able to prevent) someone else from doing so.
You mean, aside from the part of the movie where they do exactly that to their own children.
*sigh* I'm gonna leave you guys with your opinions but no it's not genocide (look up genocide in the dictionary) and no the Feds aren't conquering the planet, they're asking a tiny group not to hog all the healing juice.
If people want to support the Boomer Republicans that exiled their children for having opinions they didn't like and refuse to give up Eden to help billions of others - cool. That's your right.
Ad I said before STI had things to say and says them possibly the worst way.
It is ethnic cleansing, and conquering. What other word do you have for imposing your will on another planet/government while removing all the local inhabitants?
Well for one thing I don't use the word "imposing my will" when the owners of the planet came to me offering a resource-sharing agreement, and second I don't use the word "local inhabitants" to describe squatters who just sat down somewhere and yelled "finders keepers".
The squatters argument is laughably terrible. If I were to chase the person living next door to me out of their house at gun point the defense "well they weren't BORN there" would get me laughed at all the way to prison. The owners of the planet absolutely didn't do that. The people who lived their for centuries were being forcibly removed because they had natural resources people wanted to exploit.
Yes, for the good of everyone. Every imperialistic culture to ever conquer someone to strip mine their resources says the same thing. It is never moral. It is never right.
That’s kinda, like, the whole issue. There’s all this argument that the Bak’u are “hogging” immortality, but…they’re not. They’re not exploiting it, because they have neither the ability nor inclination to do so, but there is nothing to suggest they would prevent (or even be able to prevent) someone else from doing so.
You mean, aside from the part of the movie where they do exactly that to their own children.
How would you recommend they deal with violent insurrection against the legal government?
Edit: This conversation always seems so confusing to me. The Star Trek thread: Where we argue the ends justify the means!
How is it genocide!?!??! They are moving to another planet! And the Baku are colonists themselves so how is it Imperialist!?!
There is a big difference between moving the Romulans off Romulus and moving the Baku out of Eden. Everyone should benefit from Eden, not just the Baku.
And the Baku are Boomer Republicans - I couldn't care less about them.
Forcibly removing a people is a form of genocide. This is a settled question. The Cherokee were “simply moved” to another location—and it was genocide.
Also, if your position is that, by exiling them, the Bak’u effectively sentenced the Son’a to death, how would exiling the Bak’u be any different? The only reason the Son’a lasted as long as they did is through the use of advanced technology—which the Bak’u don’t have.
The Federation is a hegemonic superpower that attempts to claim a planet from its inhabitants with the explicit goal of harvesting its resources, and it doesn’t bother negotiating with those inhabitants because their lack of technological power makes them politically irrelevant. If that’s not imperialism, nothing is. And the origin of the inhabitants has no bearing on the question. Australia is a former colony. If the United States invaded it to bolster its control of the Pacific, that would be an act of imperialism.
As to the point about everyone having a right to Eden, the Bak’u are not preventing this. There is nothing in the movie that suggests the Bak’u oppose sharing or studying the metaphasic radiation. The Son’a were not exiled to protect its secret, but because they no longer wanted to be luddites. The presence of the Bak’u was only an issue because Rua’fo wanted to harm them and the Federation was too impatient to look for an alternative.
Every claim you made is shown wrong in the movie.
First of all, the conditions of the Baku move is so far removed from the Trail of Tears I don't even see a comparison beyond "some form of physical movement was involved".
Second, unlike the Baku, the Federation won't just dump the exiles in outer space and forget about them. The Federation takes care of people, and will insure healthcare of the Baku after deportation. This is not explicitly stated in the movie, sure, but it's pretty much stated in the 4 decades of Federation benevolence shown on screen before the movie.
Third, the Son'a have as much, if not more, claim to the planet as the Baku, and they did negotiate with the Federation, so that problem's solved.
Fourth, the Baku are explicitly preventing this by exiling from the entire planet (somehow) anyone who uses technology more sophisticated than hitting two stones together to make fire. How a post-scarcity space-faring civilization is supposed to fell "welcome" or "accepted" in sharing a planet with such radicals is beyond me.
First, you’re arguing that exiling the Son’a was wrong because it consigned them to a slow death, but doing the same to the Bak’u is fine because…what? Oh, they were going to kidnap them and destroy their home gently.
Second, you’re basing that assumption on the Federation as shown prior to the movie. The movie where the Federation makes an alliance with slavers. The movie where the Federation plans to kidnap an entire population to gain control of its resources. The movie where the Federation didn’t even plan to contact said population before doing the above because it didn’t think they were important enough
Third, all the Federation’s decisions were made before learning of the Son’a’s origin. It does not give them cover. And, you know, involving oneself in a civil war solely so you can materially benefit is definitely an example of the improved humanity Trek strives to depict.
Fourth, where are you getting that from? The Bak’u exiled the Son’a and…that’s it. They never demanded Starfleet leave the planet when they learned of its presence, never claimed that only they had a right to the planet. They also don’t have any weapons or ability to detect other settlements besides walking there. Even if your point that a spacefaring society wouldn’t feel “welcome” on the planet justified forced removal, it would be trivial for such a society to ensure it never came into contact with them.
Also, while we know the exile took place, the movie provides no information as to its nature. You’re assuming it involved force, but the Bak’u are never depicted as using or even possessing weapons. They don’t even engage in self-defense when the Son’a attack—that all comes from Picard’s team. Again, there is just nothing in the movie suggesting that the Bak’u are “hogging” the planet other than that they live there.
I really need to rewatch Nemesis now so I can be on the same page when it comes up for review. It's been a long time. I wish we'd got a Jonathan Frakes director's cut of it rather than the ignorant Baird cut.
I really need to rewatch Nemesis now so I can be on the same page when it comes up for review. It's been a long time. I wish we'd got a Jonathan Frakes director's cut of it rather than the ignorant Baird cut.
Right?! I hope Frakes gets to direct another Trek movie.
The movie clearly states the planet is in Federation space owned by the Federation. That is the exact reason the Son'a go to the Feds in the first place. It wasn't for the tech; it was for permission to fuck around in Fed space.
They are 100% squatters.
The movie is dumb from every angle, even strip mining the magic is the dumbest move. They should have put the Baku in a dome and turned the entire planet into Health Spa Risa. Geordie started regrowing eyes in like a day, and I don't even remember him stepping foot on the planet. Give him a month of shore leave and study the fuck out of the results for a while before you do anything. Bonus points for not needing the Son'a at all.
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amateurhourOne day I'll be professionalhourThe woods somewhere in TennesseeRegistered Userregular
Okay I really like the idea of just gone The Village with the Baku and outside their little paradise is just every Federation mouth breather getting shitfaced and eating greasy food because there's no consequence on eternal island.
Something the movie never bothers to clarify, and something that would radically change and solidify opinions on the matter, is whether or not this life rejuvenating energy is native to the entire planet, or just the small bit of land they're currently settled on. If it's the whole planet, the Baku can STFU. If it's just their town, the the ethics and morality surrounding everything become... well both more nuanced and more clear.
"The sausage of Green Earth explodes with flavor like the cannon of culinary delight."
The movie clearly states the planet is in Federation space owned by the Federation. That is the exact reason the Son'a go to the Feds in the first place. It wasn't for the tech; it was for permission to fuck around in Fed space.
They are 100% squatters.
The movie is dumb from every angle, even strip mining the magic is the dumbest move. They should have put the Baku in a dome and turned the entire planet into Health Spa Risa. Geordie started regrowing eyes in like a day, and I don't even remember him stepping foot on the planet. Give him a month of shore leave and study the fuck out of the results for a while before you do anything. Bonus points for not needing the Son'a at all.
I agree with your second point, but the Bak’u settled that world in 2066–almost a century before the Federation even existed, much less extended to the Briar Patch.
It’s part of the reason I don’t think the “they have no right to the world” holds any water. Even if you accept the proposition that settlers can never develop into a valid culture with a right to its territory, the Federation certainly doesn’t have more of a claim to it than anyone else.*
I do think the most ethical solution would be guaranteeing Son’a settlement rights and Bak’u sovereignty, while negotiating permission for the Federation to build research/recreation outposts.
*
This is a first contact scenario I wish the show would explore. What’s it like to invent FTL, only to discover you’re surrounded by a superpower that may or may not share your values?
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CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
Hot take: They should have cast an actor who looks like Glenn Corbett to play Zefram Cochrane in First Contact. I will die on this hill.
Peace to fashion police, I wear my heart
On my sleeve, let the runway start
The movie clearly states the planet is in Federation space owned by the Federation. That is the exact reason the Son'a go to the Feds in the first place. It wasn't for the tech; it was for permission to fuck around in Fed space.
They are 100% squatters.
The Ba'Ku settled the planet almost a century before the Federation was a thing. Federation are 100% imperial colonizers.
Nah, let's keep the Insurrection discussion time loop going!
Here's my 2 cents about the whole Insurrection nonsense: no matter which side you think is "right" (Bak'u or Son'a), they didn't bother talking to the Bak'u before making a plan. They made a choice about the Bak'u that, right or wrong, violent or not, was made without consulting the people the choice was being made about.
And no, the Prime Directive isn't a shield to hide behind here. Because to know whether they actually were covered or able to be approached, would've required studying them for at least a few days to see if they were just hippies or actually pre-warp, and in a few days of studying behind a duck blind, the scientists doing the studying would've discovered the effects staying on the planet had without having to destroy it, and they could've started a secret spa on the other side of the planet while they decide what the best course of action was, and all of that is not even counting if they would've discovered during that time that the PD doesn't apply and they can just walk up to the Bak'u and ask.
In other words, at best the Admiral was negligent in actually trying to do any research at all before leaping to "forced relocation", and we know he didn't because any such research would've led to any outcome other than what was shown on screen.
TL;DR: the first issue time-wise in the story is one of consent: maybe the Bak'u would've been assholes, maybe not, but we never were given the chance to find out because they were never asked for consent to begin with; those in charge assumed they had the "right".
"Let's take a look at the scores! The girls are at the square root of Pi, while the boys are still at a crudely drawn picture of a duck. Clearly, it's anybody's game!"
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CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
I think the thing I most hate about Insurrection is that the Ba'ku are just hot humans and the Son'a are uglified aliens. Which is kind of splitting hairs since most Star Trek Aliens are just humans with special ears or nose bumps or some spots. But if you have a film budget and you have a brand new species with two genetic branches then fuck, get crazy and show us what you can do. Or at least make it a surprise that the attractive ones are the bad guys and the ugly ones are the good guys, instead of continuing the tired trope of ugly=bad.
Peace to fashion police, I wear my heart
On my sleeve, let the runway start
Yeah, I'm coming around now to agreeing with two things from previous pages (sorry, on phone, finding and quoting is too hard for me to bother right now; you know who you are, so thank you!):
-Whichever side you think is right, Insurrection is a bad movie, and we should acknowledge that we all agree on that
-It might actually surpass 5 as the worst movie after all, because while 5 was bad, it was just generally cheesy and silly in the wrong way and is bad and dumb, which means I just cringe and would rather not watch it, while Insurrection I actively hate, so objectively that should make it rate lower.
"Let's take a look at the scores! The girls are at the square root of Pi, while the boys are still at a crudely drawn picture of a duck. Clearly, it's anybody's game!"
I really enjoy it, but I won't say it is without problem. I will absolutely say Nemsis is much worse. This is not a ringing endorsement of Insurrection mind you. Nemesis was so bad it killed Star Trek movies for a long ass time.
Yeah, I haven't seen Nemesis in a while. I would say I need to rewatch it again to decide, but...
"Let's take a look at the scores! The girls are at the square root of Pi, while the boys are still at a crudely drawn picture of a duck. Clearly, it's anybody's game!"
I remember liking bits of Nemesis - Tom Hardy etc. But I also remember finishing it and going wtf was that?
Insurrection just has too many plot inconsistencies. Like why didn't the Federation ask the Baku to move. If it's a Prime Directive issue then surely moving them at all is a non-starter. And if it isn't why are you hiding in a duck blind?
I think they are saying the Feds think the Baku are a pre-warp iron age culture, but I'd that's so...the PD would apply. It's all very confusing.
Also the slow time ability comes out of nowhere and doesn't make any sense.
Star Trek 5 has Kirk find God and punch him in the face with a torpedo - sign me up to that elevator pitch!
Insurrection is bad, but there’s a seed of a good idea in there—one or two script revisions and you’d have something good.
Fixing Nemesis would require a page 1 rewrite and about the only major plot point you’d keep is “Romulans are the baddies this time.”
Disagree. There's a good dark mirror concept going on throughout the film. They needed to lean into it and develop it more.
Romulan clone Picard as a dark reflection of Picard is good. We know Picard was a loose canon in his younger years and you can play off that. Picard confronting his own younger self is an interesting dramatic idea.
Having a similar thing going on with Data is a good idea too. You know who would be the correct person for this spot? Fucking Lore. Bring him back.
Romulans are great baddies, let's do something with them. Remans are dumb though and should probably be ditched completely.
The Romulans as the baddies also makes sense within the larger picture of the franchise as they are gonna be the other major power hanging around post-Dominion-War.
Even the basic concept of the film, of an internal coup in the Romulan empire, isn't the worst idea.
The problem with Nemesis is almost entirely in the execution.
Insurrection is bad, but there’s a seed of a good idea in there—one or two script revisions and you’d have something good.
Fixing Nemesis would require a page 1 rewrite and about the only major plot point you’d keep is “Romulans are the baddies this time.”
Disagree. There's a good dark mirror concept going on throughout the film. They needed to lean into it and develop it more.
Romulan clone Picard as a dark reflection of Picard is good. We know Picard was a loose canon in his younger years and you can play off that. Picard confronting his own younger self is an interesting dramatic idea.
Having a similar thing going on with Data is a good idea too. You know who would be the correct person for this spot? Fucking Lore. Bring him back.
Romulans are great baddies, let's do something with them. Remans are dumb though and should probably be ditched completely.
The Romulans as the baddies also makes sense within the larger picture of the franchise as they are gonna be the other major power hanging around post-Dominion-War.
Even the basic concept of the film, of an internal coup in the Romulan empire, isn't the worst idea.
The problem with Nemesis is almost entirely in the execution.
And mind rape.
I think you covered that with the shitty Remans that could have been skipped completely.
Fuck just have it be a Tal Shiar plot with the Picard clone and coup because the Romulan Senate was getting to buddy buddy with the Federation post Dominion war.
Insurrection is bad, but there’s a seed of a good idea in there—one or two script revisions and you’d have something good.
Fixing Nemesis would require a page 1 rewrite and about the only major plot point you’d keep is “Romulans are the baddies this time.”
Disagree. There's a good dark mirror concept going on throughout the film. They needed to lean into it and develop it more.
Romulan clone Picard as a dark reflection of Picard is good. We know Picard was a loose canon in his younger years and you can play off that. Picard confronting his own younger self is an interesting dramatic idea.
Having a similar thing going on with Data is a good idea too. You know who would be the correct person for this spot? Fucking Lore. Bring him back.
Romulans are great baddies, let's do something with them. Remans are dumb though and should probably be ditched completely.
The Romulans as the baddies also makes sense within the larger picture of the franchise as they are gonna be the other major power hanging around post-Dominion-War.
Even the basic concept of the film, of an internal coup in the Romulan empire, isn't the worst idea.
The problem with Nemesis is almost entirely in the execution.
And mind rape.
I think you covered that with the shitty Remans that could have been skipped completely.
Fuck just have it be a Tal Shiar plot with the Picard clone and coup because the Romulan Senate was getting to buddy buddy with the Federation post Dominion war.
Lore sneaking onto the Enterprise to take Data's place is also a very Romulan kind of plot.
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Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
...
I do think the most ethical solution would be guaranteeing Son’a settlement rights and Bak’u sovereignty, while negotiating permission for the Federation to build research/recreation outposts.
*
This is a first contact scenario I wish the show would explore. What’s it like to invent FTL, only to discover you’re surrounded by a superpower that may or may not share your values?
What encountering a vastly superior FTL species could mean for a civilisation:
**Initial Discovery:**
* **Awe and Wonder:** The fledgling FTL species might be initially filled with awe at the advanced technology and the vastness of galactic society. Imagine a child discovering a room full of adults with incredible things they've never seen.
* **Fear and Paranoia:** The realisation of their own vulnerability could lead to paranoia and fear. Are they being watched? Will they be conquered?
**Potential Conflicts:**
* **Resource Depletion:** The advanced species might have already claimed most of the readily available resources in the galaxy. This could lead to competition or even conflict over resource-rich star systems.
* **Cultural Clash:** Differences in societal values could create friction. Imagine a pacifist species encountering a civilisation that values conquest.
* **Misunderstandings:** Communication across vast distances and vastly different cultures could lead to misunderstandings. A simple greeting could be seen as a threat.
**Depending on the advanced species' motivations, the encounter could unfold in several ways:**
* **Benevolent Guardians:** The advanced species might act as mentors, helping the younger civilisation develop responsibly.
* **Exploitation:** The advanced species could see the younger one as a source of cheap labor or resources.
* **Isolation:** The advanced species might choose to quarantine the younger one, fearing they might be a threat or disrupt the galactic order.
**This initial contact could spark a new era for the younger species:**
* **Rapid Advancement:** Learning from the advanced species could accelerate their own technological and societal development.
* **Loss of Identity:** Exposure to a superior culture could lead to the loss of the younger species' own traditions and values.
Here are some additional points to consider:
* **Internal Divisions:** The younger species might struggle to agree on how to approach the advanced one, leading to internal conflict.
* **The Role of Religion:** Religious beliefs could be challenged by the advanced species' knowledge and technology.
The possibilities are vast, and the outcome would depend on the specific characteristics of both civilisations. This scenario could be a catalyst for great advancement, exploitation, or even war. It all boils down to the choices made by both sides.
...
I do think the most ethical solution would be guaranteeing Son’a settlement rights and Bak’u sovereignty, while negotiating permission for the Federation to build research/recreation outposts.
*
This is a first contact scenario I wish the show would explore. What’s it like to invent FTL, only to discover you’re surrounded by a superpower that may or may not share your values?
What encountering a vastly superior FTL species could mean for a civilisation:
**Initial Discovery:**
* **Awe and Wonder:** The fledgling FTL species might be initially filled with awe at the advanced technology and the vastness of galactic society. Imagine a child discovering a room full of adults with incredible things they've never seen.
* **Fear and Paranoia:** The realisation of their own vulnerability could lead to paranoia and fear. Are they being watched? Will they be conquered?
**Potential Conflicts:**
* **Resource Depletion:** The advanced species might have already claimed most of the readily available resources in the galaxy. This could lead to competition or even conflict over resource-rich star systems.
* **Cultural Clash:** Differences in societal values could create friction. Imagine a pacifist species encountering a civilisation that values conquest.
* **Misunderstandings:** Communication across vast distances and vastly different cultures could lead to misunderstandings. A simple greeting could be seen as a threat.
**Depending on the advanced species' motivations, the encounter could unfold in several ways:**
* **Benevolent Guardians:** The advanced species might act as mentors, helping the younger civilisation develop responsibly.
* **Exploitation:** The advanced species could see the younger one as a source of cheap labor or resources.
* **Isolation:** The advanced species might choose to quarantine the younger one, fearing they might be a threat or disrupt the galactic order.
**This initial contact could spark a new era for the younger species:**
* **Rapid Advancement:** Learning from the advanced species could accelerate their own technological and societal development.
* **Loss of Identity:** Exposure to a superior culture could lead to the loss of the younger species' own traditions and values.
Here are some additional points to consider:
* **Internal Divisions:** The younger species might struggle to agree on how to approach the advanced one, leading to internal conflict.
* **The Role of Religion:** Religious beliefs could be challenged by the advanced species' knowledge and technology.
The possibilities are vast, and the outcome would depend on the specific characteristics of both civilisations. This scenario could be a catalyst for great advancement, exploitation, or even war. It all boils down to the choices made by both sides.
It's almost like I wrote an entire post both asking questions and writing a possible series of films around it, using the TNG crew back in the day.
Insurrection is an interesting movie. Not for the plot, it's a hot mess, but for the assumptions people carry with them to fill in the gaps in the plot you could fly a Galaxy class through. With that said, and carrying my own assumptions, here's what I think of the plot.
Like a lot of the stories in the show it's written with no comprehension of the scale of planets, as if being exiled from a whole world is equivalent to being exiled from a small town in a western. We aren't ever told if the Son'a were native born to the planet, they were the younger generation, but they could have been the kids of the crew of the Ba'ku ship that chanced upon the world. For them to have rebelled and having failed in their rebellion be exiled only makes sense to me if they kicked off the stink about the Ba'ku abandoning technology before they actually got around to disassembling the starships they used to chance upon paradise. If they still had ships of their own they would be able to enforce their command of exile to their children before taking them apart because toasters steal your soul or whatever.
After being kicked out of their home, the Son'a spend more than half a millennium travelling the stars. They don't seem to ever head back to their species' homeworld and tell the rest of their people about the miraculous fountain of youth their parents found, indeed their homeworld and species never comes up in the plot, maybe the Ba'ku destroyed their stat charts to ensure their children would never know another home, or maybe their people apart from the Ba'ku destroyed themselves from too much technology (probably all the toasters), we have no way of knowing as the script has no interest in explaining it. There's also the odd bit than in the intervening hundreds of years, there seemingly haven't been any new Son'a born, they're all the same children the Ba'ku exiled centuries ago. Perhaps those Son'a who just wanted to go on with their lives did travel back to their homeworld to reintegrate into their society and it was just the small band of extremists who decided to keep travelling using medical science to stretch their lives out as long as possible. Indeed for their supposed genocidal hatred for their parents, they never, in all the time they're travelling the stars, ever fly back to the Ba'ku planet and bomb it, or use transporters to beam them all up and strand them on Ceti Alpha V or whatever. Time can change people, while Rua'fo is clearly driven by hatred of those who exiled him by the time we see him, he and everyone one of his fellow exiles has spent 600 years pushing the very limits of medical science to stretch their lives out as far as possible, it's only once the limits of every procedure they have access to are reached that they decide to head back to the Ba'ku planet to extract the energies of the planet's rings to preserve their own lives. Even then, while being business partners with the Dominion, they don't ask their buddies to come blow up the world for them, they go to the one group in the quadrant they can be sure would treat those who exiled them the most humanely. Now relocation without getting a people's consent is still forced relocation even if they aren't aware they have been relocated, and forced relocation is a form of ethnic cleansing and genocide, so it shows an exceptionally dark aspect of the Federation that they would be willing to go ahead with it. Even when their plan to do everything secretly goes tits up, the Son'a don't go in guns blazing, Rua'fo certainly seems to have little interest in preserving anyone's life, but his subordinates go to the effort of using drones with transporter tags to bypass the Enterprise' efforts at jamming transporters to still safely get their people off world before starting up the extractor. If they really did want them dead, they could have just fired up the machine and let the world below burn.
Incidentally, for as positive a view of science as Star Trek normally has, the clear disgust that the movie shows for the Son'a using medical science to extend their lives, rather than the "natural" method of chancing onto a magic fountain of youth, plus the general showing of the multi-ethnic and technologically advanced Federation to be in the wrong while the primitivist band of pretty white people are pure as the fresh driven snow really goes against the general values portrayed by the setting.
There are a lot of aspects of the Federation in the movie that portray it in a disastrously awful light. Claiming that the Ba'ku planet is "theirs" when they didn't even know it existed until the Son'a told them about it, and it having been occupied for centuries prior to the Federation's existence suggests that they just drew a big circle on the galactic map and said everything on the inside of it belonged to them. From a galactic politics perspective it does make some degree of sense to be able to draw a clear border and say everything inside of it is yours even if you haven't actually been to it yet to stop more aggressive factions like the Romulans and Klingons from claiming a system within your territory as their own little enclave. With that said, it does suggest the Federation views any world occupied by pre-warp civilizations within those borders to be Federation property and not the property of whatever species is living on those worlds. Maybe the Federation typically would respect the property rights of a species up to the border of their star system (which as noted, would make for a really interesting Prime Directive story to explore) but in the case of the Ba'ku they didn't want to risk them saying no if they asked them for permission to extract the energy of their planet's rings. Not that accepting that no means no, so they won't even ask is a good thing...
People have argued before about just how valuable a resource being able to double everyone's lifespan and eliminate all disease would be in the Federation with their already miraculous medical tech and a human lifespan that can regularly reach into its second century. From the context of the movie's story it certainly seems like it's supposed to be something valuable enough for the Federation to make a deal with the Devil in accepting the aid of the slaving, drug and weapons dealing Son'a. In the real world it would of course be spectacularly valuable to be able to eliminate every disease for everyone, but if you operate under the assumption that the metaphasic radiation basically just does what Federation medical science can already accomplish slightly more easily then of course that would make it a barbaric act of selfishness to destroy an entire planet just to make already extant treatment easier. Conversely if you assume there's enough fancy new space diseases to make up the difference of all the boring old Earth diseases already being cured, then if the Ba'ku have the ability to enforce their desire for others not to come to their world, it would be a barbaric act of selfishness for them not to share the whole planet with others.
If I were to rewrite the story, I would limit the effects of the metaphasic radiation to a small area around the Ba'ku's village. Since it's obviously a fountain of youth story, make it a unique mineral vein in a nearby mountain that is leeching into the water of the river that runs through the village, just make the fountain of youth aspect literal. The single vein of "immortality juice" is all there is, there's no other source for it anywhere else in the galaxy and no-one is able to replicate whatever unique combination of chemical and radiological effects are able to grant people eternal youth. If it's left on its own, there's enough in that single vein to keep the 600 Ba'ku living in their village alive until their system's star burns out, but the Federation has come up with a technique to extract the mineral resource and disperse it throughout the Federation, consuming it all in one go, but benefitting hundreds of billions rather than the few hundred who currently have it. That would resolve the issue of why people don't just land a ship a few hundred miles away from the Ba'ku where they'd never even realise people were there, and making it the Federation and excising the Son'a plot would avoid the many issues with them being portrayed as clearly evil while the story has to have them act weirdly honourably and willing to go to great lengths to keep the people they supposedly want to kill alive. It does still seem to have a pretty clear correct choice though, 600 Luddites getting to enjoy their perfect little white paradise forever or hundreds of billions having their lives massively improved, even if it does mean stealing the incredible resource they've come across and condemning them to eventual death. Perhaps rather than making it an amazing unique resource, if the goal is to highlight how harming a less powerful group than your own and stealing their resources for your own benefit, make it a world rich in a high grade of dilithium the Federation wants because it'll help in the Dominion war. Not something vital to their survival, but maybe a strategically useful location along the front of the war for a dilithium mine. It would make it a rather nakedly obvious allegory for less powerful people being killed for their mineral wealth by the more powerful, while still having enough of a reason that you could believe the Federation might be reluctantly willing to go ahead with a Rohzenko style secret relocation effort to preserve the lives of the people they're stealing from.
It's quite possible I've misremembered some plot details from the movie, but this thread isn't going to trick me into rewatching it again.
The thing I'll say on Insurrection is TNG has already done this sort of story three times before - and those three episodes contradict each other in their conclusions! It's like the writers can't decide (like us here) whether forced relocation is always bad.
In Ensigns of Command, the moral is that places don't matter - people matter so relocating them is the best option.
In Homeward, Picard is prick about the Prime Directive and is happy for a whole species to die (this is weird writing of Picard similar as in Season 1 when the PD was the Golden Rule, even though after that he himself violated it millions of times!!) but Worfs brother beams them on board so they use the holodeck to move to them to new planet without making them aware (Piller literally ripped off this script for Insurrection)
In Journeys End, Picard decides that relocating the colonist Native Americans is wrong and refuses and asks the Cardassians to not be dicks.
So Insurrection is this same story they can't quite seem to let go of.
Insurrection is an interesting movie. Not for the plot, it's a hot mess, but for the assumptions people carry with them to fill in the gaps in the plot you could fly a Galaxy class through. ...
This is what I was trying to express before but couldn't find the words, thank you. It's one thing to leave things open to interpretation, let the audience examine their own beliefs and biases through the lens of the story, etc. But Insurrection IMHO fails because it leaves gaps so massive there's almost no coherent story left, leading to us looping arguing about wildly different interpretations of things, and it's not just because of different biases or opinions, but the utter lack of relevant info that leaves the possible interpretations wide open.
Like, you want to make a statement, fine. You want to make half a statement and have your audience discuss what their opinions fill in for the other half, fine. But if you spend two hours yet don't make any statement at all?
"Let's take a look at the scores! The girls are at the square root of Pi, while the boys are still at a crudely drawn picture of a duck. Clearly, it's anybody's game!"
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AbsoluteZeroThe new film by Quentin KoopantinoRegistered Userregular
I really like Tom Hardy's eeeeeeeeevil younger Picard. That's kindof it though. The most offensive thing, to me, about Nemesis is trying to copy/paste the death of Spock. Original idea do not steal.
I was just watching regular show for some reason and I noticed Eileen had her and Ribgy dress as Janeway and Chakotay in her Halloween story. Thought it was a cute reference
I have a podcast now. It's about video games and anime!Find it here.
Insurrection is bad, but there’s a seed of a good idea in there—one or two script revisions and you’d have something good.
Fixing Nemesis would require a page 1 rewrite and about the only major plot point you’d keep is “Romulans are the baddies this time.”
Disagree. There's a good dark mirror concept going on throughout the film. They needed to lean into it and develop it more.
Romulan clone Picard as a dark reflection of Picard is good. We know Picard was a loose canon in his younger years and you can play off that. Picard confronting his own younger self is an interesting dramatic idea.
Having a similar thing going on with Data is a good idea too. You know who would be the correct person for this spot? Fucking Lore. Bring him back.
Romulans are great baddies, let's do something with them. Remans are dumb though and should probably be ditched completely.
The Romulans as the baddies also makes sense within the larger picture of the franchise as they are gonna be the other major power hanging around post-Dominion-War.
Even the basic concept of the film, of an internal coup in the Romulan empire, isn't the worst idea.
The problem with Nemesis is almost entirely in the execution.
I do agree with this, but the movie kind of ruined it by having clone-Picard being a tool that was used, abused, and then discarded to spend a decade or two as a slave in a space coal mine or whatever. And then they decided to have real-Picard asking deep questions about whether or not he could have ended up like Shinzon. Nurture vs. nature is something that I don't think Trek is particularly great for since the writers tend to have really weird ideas about genetics and evolution and the like; and Shinzon's upbringing was so extreme that Picard's musings on the subject just felt hollow, like yeah mister 'there are five four lights' massive levels of abuse can really mess with you.
That particular plot thread would have worked better if Shinzon hadn't been stuffed into a mine shaft and instead had risen through the Romulan ranks and had decided to take over the empire and/or free the Remans without all the additional baggage. As it was the whole Picard vs. cloned Picard didn't really hit because really the only thing they had in common was their genetics, and that really didn't do enough to make it work.
Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
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You mean, aside from the part of the movie where they do exactly that to their own children.
The squatters argument is laughably terrible. If I were to chase the person living next door to me out of their house at gun point the defense "well they weren't BORN there" would get me laughed at all the way to prison. The owners of the planet absolutely didn't do that. The people who lived their for centuries were being forcibly removed because they had natural resources people wanted to exploit.
Yes, for the good of everyone. Every imperialistic culture to ever conquer someone to strip mine their resources says the same thing. It is never moral. It is never right.
How would you recommend they deal with violent insurrection against the legal government?
Edit: This conversation always seems so confusing to me. The Star Trek thread: Where we argue the ends justify the means!
First, you’re arguing that exiling the Son’a was wrong because it consigned them to a slow death, but doing the same to the Bak’u is fine because…what? Oh, they were going to kidnap them and destroy their home gently.
Second, you’re basing that assumption on the Federation as shown prior to the movie. The movie where the Federation makes an alliance with slavers. The movie where the Federation plans to kidnap an entire population to gain control of its resources. The movie where the Federation didn’t even plan to contact said population before doing the above because it didn’t think they were important enough
Third, all the Federation’s decisions were made before learning of the Son’a’s origin. It does not give them cover. And, you know, involving oneself in a civil war solely so you can materially benefit is definitely an example of the improved humanity Trek strives to depict.
Fourth, where are you getting that from? The Bak’u exiled the Son’a and…that’s it. They never demanded Starfleet leave the planet when they learned of its presence, never claimed that only they had a right to the planet. They also don’t have any weapons or ability to detect other settlements besides walking there. Even if your point that a spacefaring society wouldn’t feel “welcome” on the planet justified forced removal, it would be trivial for such a society to ensure it never came into contact with them.
Also, while we know the exile took place, the movie provides no information as to its nature. You’re assuming it involved force, but the Bak’u are never depicted as using or even possessing weapons. They don’t even engage in self-defense when the Son’a attack—that all comes from Picard’s team. Again, there is just nothing in the movie suggesting that the Bak’u are “hogging” the planet other than that they live there.
Right?! I hope Frakes gets to direct another Trek movie.
They are 100% squatters.
The movie is dumb from every angle, even strip mining the magic is the dumbest move. They should have put the Baku in a dome and turned the entire planet into Health Spa Risa. Geordie started regrowing eyes in like a day, and I don't even remember him stepping foot on the planet. Give him a month of shore leave and study the fuck out of the results for a while before you do anything. Bonus points for not needing the Son'a at all.
I agree with your second point, but the Bak’u settled that world in 2066–almost a century before the Federation even existed, much less extended to the Briar Patch.
It’s part of the reason I don’t think the “they have no right to the world” holds any water. Even if you accept the proposition that settlers can never develop into a valid culture with a right to its territory, the Federation certainly doesn’t have more of a claim to it than anyone else.*
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Ba'ku
I do think the most ethical solution would be guaranteeing Son’a settlement rights and Bak’u sovereignty, while negotiating permission for the Federation to build research/recreation outposts.
*
On my sleeve, let the runway start
The Ba'Ku settled the planet almost a century before the Federation was a thing. Federation are 100% imperial colonizers.
Here's my 2 cents about the whole Insurrection nonsense: no matter which side you think is "right" (Bak'u or Son'a), they didn't bother talking to the Bak'u before making a plan. They made a choice about the Bak'u that, right or wrong, violent or not, was made without consulting the people the choice was being made about.
And no, the Prime Directive isn't a shield to hide behind here. Because to know whether they actually were covered or able to be approached, would've required studying them for at least a few days to see if they were just hippies or actually pre-warp, and in a few days of studying behind a duck blind, the scientists doing the studying would've discovered the effects staying on the planet had without having to destroy it, and they could've started a secret spa on the other side of the planet while they decide what the best course of action was, and all of that is not even counting if they would've discovered during that time that the PD doesn't apply and they can just walk up to the Bak'u and ask.
In other words, at best the Admiral was negligent in actually trying to do any research at all before leaping to "forced relocation", and we know he didn't because any such research would've led to any outcome other than what was shown on screen.
TL;DR: the first issue time-wise in the story is one of consent: maybe the Bak'u would've been assholes, maybe not, but we never were given the chance to find out because they were never asked for consent to begin with; those in charge assumed they had the "right".
On my sleeve, let the runway start
-Whichever side you think is right, Insurrection is a bad movie, and we should acknowledge that we all agree on that
-It might actually surpass 5 as the worst movie after all, because while 5 was bad, it was just generally cheesy and silly in the wrong way and is bad and dumb, which means I just cringe and would rather not watch it, while Insurrection I actively hate, so objectively that should make it rate lower.
The firmer boobs line was bad and then having Data parrot it as if he didnt understand it was also bad it just was not a good script
Fixing Nemesis would require a page 1 rewrite and about the only major plot point you’d keep is “Romulans are the baddies this time.”
Insurrection just has too many plot inconsistencies. Like why didn't the Federation ask the Baku to move. If it's a Prime Directive issue then surely moving them at all is a non-starter. And if it isn't why are you hiding in a duck blind?
I think they are saying the Feds think the Baku are a pre-warp iron age culture, but I'd that's so...the PD would apply. It's all very confusing.
Also the slow time ability comes out of nowhere and doesn't make any sense.
Star Trek 5 has Kirk find God and punch him in the face with a torpedo - sign me up to that elevator pitch!
Disagree. There's a good dark mirror concept going on throughout the film. They needed to lean into it and develop it more.
Romulan clone Picard as a dark reflection of Picard is good. We know Picard was a loose canon in his younger years and you can play off that. Picard confronting his own younger self is an interesting dramatic idea.
Having a similar thing going on with Data is a good idea too. You know who would be the correct person for this spot? Fucking Lore. Bring him back.
Romulans are great baddies, let's do something with them. Remans are dumb though and should probably be ditched completely.
The Romulans as the baddies also makes sense within the larger picture of the franchise as they are gonna be the other major power hanging around post-Dominion-War.
Even the basic concept of the film, of an internal coup in the Romulan empire, isn't the worst idea.
The problem with Nemesis is almost entirely in the execution.
And mind rape.
I think you covered that with the shitty Remans that could have been skipped completely.
Fuck just have it be a Tal Shiar plot with the Picard clone and coup because the Romulan Senate was getting to buddy buddy with the Federation post Dominion war.
Lore sneaking onto the Enterprise to take Data's place is also a very Romulan kind of plot.
Have fun with that thought rummaging through your head tonight!
**Initial Discovery:**
* **Awe and Wonder:** The fledgling FTL species might be initially filled with awe at the advanced technology and the vastness of galactic society. Imagine a child discovering a room full of adults with incredible things they've never seen.
* **Fear and Paranoia:** The realisation of their own vulnerability could lead to paranoia and fear. Are they being watched? Will they be conquered?
**Potential Conflicts:**
* **Resource Depletion:** The advanced species might have already claimed most of the readily available resources in the galaxy. This could lead to competition or even conflict over resource-rich star systems.
* **Cultural Clash:** Differences in societal values could create friction. Imagine a pacifist species encountering a civilisation that values conquest.
* **Misunderstandings:** Communication across vast distances and vastly different cultures could lead to misunderstandings. A simple greeting could be seen as a threat.
**Depending on the advanced species' motivations, the encounter could unfold in several ways:**
* **Benevolent Guardians:** The advanced species might act as mentors, helping the younger civilisation develop responsibly.
* **Exploitation:** The advanced species could see the younger one as a source of cheap labor or resources.
* **Isolation:** The advanced species might choose to quarantine the younger one, fearing they might be a threat or disrupt the galactic order.
**This initial contact could spark a new era for the younger species:**
* **Rapid Advancement:** Learning from the advanced species could accelerate their own technological and societal development.
* **Loss of Identity:** Exposure to a superior culture could lead to the loss of the younger species' own traditions and values.
Here are some additional points to consider:
* **Internal Divisions:** The younger species might struggle to agree on how to approach the advanced one, leading to internal conflict.
* **The Role of Religion:** Religious beliefs could be challenged by the advanced species' knowledge and technology.
The possibilities are vast, and the outcome would depend on the specific characteristics of both civilisations. This scenario could be a catalyst for great advancement, exploitation, or even war. It all boils down to the choices made by both sides.
It's almost like I wrote an entire post both asking questions and writing a possible series of films around it, using the TNG crew back in the day.
Can't think why, his performance is one of the best things in it!
Like a lot of the stories in the show it's written with no comprehension of the scale of planets, as if being exiled from a whole world is equivalent to being exiled from a small town in a western. We aren't ever told if the Son'a were native born to the planet, they were the younger generation, but they could have been the kids of the crew of the Ba'ku ship that chanced upon the world. For them to have rebelled and having failed in their rebellion be exiled only makes sense to me if they kicked off the stink about the Ba'ku abandoning technology before they actually got around to disassembling the starships they used to chance upon paradise. If they still had ships of their own they would be able to enforce their command of exile to their children before taking them apart because toasters steal your soul or whatever.
After being kicked out of their home, the Son'a spend more than half a millennium travelling the stars. They don't seem to ever head back to their species' homeworld and tell the rest of their people about the miraculous fountain of youth their parents found, indeed their homeworld and species never comes up in the plot, maybe the Ba'ku destroyed their stat charts to ensure their children would never know another home, or maybe their people apart from the Ba'ku destroyed themselves from too much technology (probably all the toasters), we have no way of knowing as the script has no interest in explaining it. There's also the odd bit than in the intervening hundreds of years, there seemingly haven't been any new Son'a born, they're all the same children the Ba'ku exiled centuries ago. Perhaps those Son'a who just wanted to go on with their lives did travel back to their homeworld to reintegrate into their society and it was just the small band of extremists who decided to keep travelling using medical science to stretch their lives out as long as possible. Indeed for their supposed genocidal hatred for their parents, they never, in all the time they're travelling the stars, ever fly back to the Ba'ku planet and bomb it, or use transporters to beam them all up and strand them on Ceti Alpha V or whatever. Time can change people, while Rua'fo is clearly driven by hatred of those who exiled him by the time we see him, he and everyone one of his fellow exiles has spent 600 years pushing the very limits of medical science to stretch their lives out as far as possible, it's only once the limits of every procedure they have access to are reached that they decide to head back to the Ba'ku planet to extract the energies of the planet's rings to preserve their own lives. Even then, while being business partners with the Dominion, they don't ask their buddies to come blow up the world for them, they go to the one group in the quadrant they can be sure would treat those who exiled them the most humanely. Now relocation without getting a people's consent is still forced relocation even if they aren't aware they have been relocated, and forced relocation is a form of ethnic cleansing and genocide, so it shows an exceptionally dark aspect of the Federation that they would be willing to go ahead with it. Even when their plan to do everything secretly goes tits up, the Son'a don't go in guns blazing, Rua'fo certainly seems to have little interest in preserving anyone's life, but his subordinates go to the effort of using drones with transporter tags to bypass the Enterprise' efforts at jamming transporters to still safely get their people off world before starting up the extractor. If they really did want them dead, they could have just fired up the machine and let the world below burn.
Incidentally, for as positive a view of science as Star Trek normally has, the clear disgust that the movie shows for the Son'a using medical science to extend their lives, rather than the "natural" method of chancing onto a magic fountain of youth, plus the general showing of the multi-ethnic and technologically advanced Federation to be in the wrong while the primitivist band of pretty white people are pure as the fresh driven snow really goes against the general values portrayed by the setting.
There are a lot of aspects of the Federation in the movie that portray it in a disastrously awful light. Claiming that the Ba'ku planet is "theirs" when they didn't even know it existed until the Son'a told them about it, and it having been occupied for centuries prior to the Federation's existence suggests that they just drew a big circle on the galactic map and said everything on the inside of it belonged to them. From a galactic politics perspective it does make some degree of sense to be able to draw a clear border and say everything inside of it is yours even if you haven't actually been to it yet to stop more aggressive factions like the Romulans and Klingons from claiming a system within your territory as their own little enclave. With that said, it does suggest the Federation views any world occupied by pre-warp civilizations within those borders to be Federation property and not the property of whatever species is living on those worlds. Maybe the Federation typically would respect the property rights of a species up to the border of their star system (which as noted, would make for a really interesting Prime Directive story to explore) but in the case of the Ba'ku they didn't want to risk them saying no if they asked them for permission to extract the energy of their planet's rings. Not that accepting that no means no, so they won't even ask is a good thing...
People have argued before about just how valuable a resource being able to double everyone's lifespan and eliminate all disease would be in the Federation with their already miraculous medical tech and a human lifespan that can regularly reach into its second century. From the context of the movie's story it certainly seems like it's supposed to be something valuable enough for the Federation to make a deal with the Devil in accepting the aid of the slaving, drug and weapons dealing Son'a. In the real world it would of course be spectacularly valuable to be able to eliminate every disease for everyone, but if you operate under the assumption that the metaphasic radiation basically just does what Federation medical science can already accomplish slightly more easily then of course that would make it a barbaric act of selfishness to destroy an entire planet just to make already extant treatment easier. Conversely if you assume there's enough fancy new space diseases to make up the difference of all the boring old Earth diseases already being cured, then if the Ba'ku have the ability to enforce their desire for others not to come to their world, it would be a barbaric act of selfishness for them not to share the whole planet with others.
If I were to rewrite the story, I would limit the effects of the metaphasic radiation to a small area around the Ba'ku's village. Since it's obviously a fountain of youth story, make it a unique mineral vein in a nearby mountain that is leeching into the water of the river that runs through the village, just make the fountain of youth aspect literal. The single vein of "immortality juice" is all there is, there's no other source for it anywhere else in the galaxy and no-one is able to replicate whatever unique combination of chemical and radiological effects are able to grant people eternal youth. If it's left on its own, there's enough in that single vein to keep the 600 Ba'ku living in their village alive until their system's star burns out, but the Federation has come up with a technique to extract the mineral resource and disperse it throughout the Federation, consuming it all in one go, but benefitting hundreds of billions rather than the few hundred who currently have it. That would resolve the issue of why people don't just land a ship a few hundred miles away from the Ba'ku where they'd never even realise people were there, and making it the Federation and excising the Son'a plot would avoid the many issues with them being portrayed as clearly evil while the story has to have them act weirdly honourably and willing to go to great lengths to keep the people they supposedly want to kill alive. It does still seem to have a pretty clear correct choice though, 600 Luddites getting to enjoy their perfect little white paradise forever or hundreds of billions having their lives massively improved, even if it does mean stealing the incredible resource they've come across and condemning them to eventual death. Perhaps rather than making it an amazing unique resource, if the goal is to highlight how harming a less powerful group than your own and stealing their resources for your own benefit, make it a world rich in a high grade of dilithium the Federation wants because it'll help in the Dominion war. Not something vital to their survival, but maybe a strategically useful location along the front of the war for a dilithium mine. It would make it a rather nakedly obvious allegory for less powerful people being killed for their mineral wealth by the more powerful, while still having enough of a reason that you could believe the Federation might be reluctantly willing to go ahead with a Rohzenko style secret relocation effort to preserve the lives of the people they're stealing from.
It's quite possible I've misremembered some plot details from the movie, but this thread isn't going to trick me into rewatching it again.
In Ensigns of Command, the moral is that places don't matter - people matter so relocating them is the best option.
In Homeward, Picard is prick about the Prime Directive and is happy for a whole species to die (this is weird writing of Picard similar as in Season 1 when the PD was the Golden Rule, even though after that he himself violated it millions of times!!) but Worfs brother beams them on board so they use the holodeck to move to them to new planet without making them aware (Piller literally ripped off this script for Insurrection)
In Journeys End, Picard decides that relocating the colonist Native Americans is wrong and refuses and asks the Cardassians to not be dicks.
So Insurrection is this same story they can't quite seem to let go of.
This is what I was trying to express before but couldn't find the words, thank you. It's one thing to leave things open to interpretation, let the audience examine their own beliefs and biases through the lens of the story, etc. But Insurrection IMHO fails because it leaves gaps so massive there's almost no coherent story left, leading to us looping arguing about wildly different interpretations of things, and it's not just because of different biases or opinions, but the utter lack of relevant info that leaves the possible interpretations wide open.
Like, you want to make a statement, fine. You want to make half a statement and have your audience discuss what their opinions fill in for the other half, fine. But if you spend two hours yet don't make any statement at all?
I do agree with this, but the movie kind of ruined it by having clone-Picard being a tool that was used, abused, and then discarded to spend a decade or two as a slave in a space coal mine or whatever. And then they decided to have real-Picard asking deep questions about whether or not he could have ended up like Shinzon. Nurture vs. nature is something that I don't think Trek is particularly great for since the writers tend to have really weird ideas about genetics and evolution and the like; and Shinzon's upbringing was so extreme that Picard's musings on the subject just felt hollow, like yeah mister 'there are five four lights' massive levels of abuse can really mess with you.
That particular plot thread would have worked better if Shinzon hadn't been stuffed into a mine shaft and instead had risen through the Romulan ranks and had decided to take over the empire and/or free the Remans without all the additional baggage. As it was the whole Picard vs. cloned Picard didn't really hit because really the only thing they had in common was their genetics, and that really didn't do enough to make it work.
Found the Romulan!
Blizzard: Pailryder#1101
GoG: https://www.gog.com/u/pailryder