If its not obvious I am going through the entire Star Trek Film Series one movie at the time and giving my thoughts on it. Last time I did First Contact, which means that now I have come to...
Star Trek:Insurrection Aka the one where we learn that Technology is bad.
Its the only Movie in the Franchise written by Michael Piller, which when you consider how important he was to making TNG great, is really sad, because this movie is a stinker. Its not bad in the ST5 where William Shatner got too much power of the story and we got a schlocky action story. No, its plain bad.
Plot is like this: Its the during Dominion war, not that we hear anything about that apart from a few off-screen references. On a simple pastoral planet inhabited by simple pastoral people... Suddenly Data appeares and goes amok, shooting a hole in a Starfleet holo disgused surveillance post surveying the simple pastoral people. Starfleet has sent The Ent-E with Picard&Co to hold down the fort in a backwoods part of the galaxy, doing diplomacy while other Starfleet captains have to fight Jem'hadar. During one of these diplomatic events, Picard is told about Data and he decides to go there to retrieve him, figuring that he has a better chance of doing so than any other man. Picard gets help from Worf who is here because ghgjaderdsyb..(No really we don't get any explanation why he is there in the movie). After doing a really bad Gilbert and Sullivan karaoke to distract Data, they succeed.
Data it seems had gone into defense mode as a result of damage on the Pastoral Planet we now learn is named Ba'ku. It seems he discovered a sinister plot to relocate the Ba'ku people from their planet by beaming them away from their homes and putting them on a holodeck equipped ship. Why? Because Ba'ku is a fountain of youth planet that makes people younger as they bask in the radiation of the rings that encircle it. The Simple Pastoral People are actually centuries old travelers from an advanced civilization that decided to settle here. Suffice to say that Starfleet is working with an evil collection of Alien Races lead by the So'na to steal their planet and the fountain of youth. Picard opposes this because its wrong. Oh, and the settlement is the only settlement on the planet. The inhabitants are all very enlightened and I can't go on recaping anymore. Any complaints, go watch it yourself.
Now we have talked in many threads about the Ba'ku and their planet so I won't go into that here. I will however point one thing out in this entire conflict: The Ba'ku are the good aliens and they all look indistinguishable to humans. They are also all white... like they are all played by white actors that could have come straight out of a model catalog. Their houses... I don't know how to describe them but as very California Style suburban architecture, you have probably seen it in several movies/tv shows. it denotes that the person living there is both rich and white.
The So'na cabal on the other hand has POCs... playing Alien henchmen in heavy makeup. Also the So'na get frequent facelifts so they look likes stretched version of themselves because they want to halt their aging process. This look as ridiculous as it sounds and is a reference to Hollywood's plastic surgery craze at the time... a craze that has since been surpassed by Botox. Sorry, F Murray Abrams! You sat in the makeup chair for nothing, our idea of enormous vanity is freezing your face, injecting fillers into the lips and removing fat from the cheeks.
The SFX are shit. Compared to what DS9 was doing at the same time and considering the vastly bigger budget of the movie, there was not one sequence that stood out. There where scenes where the greenscreen looked ridiculous. The Starship battles where boring and a waste of time, but compared to the ground part... no still a waste of time. The Ground part was the crew standing around shooting at greenscreen drones that swooped down on them from above. The Effects would have been shit if they had been used in ST5 and they have not aged well.
Characterwise.... There was nothing of value in almost our entire crew... with one exception: Troi and Riker. Honestly, the few scenes where they where rekindling their romance was the only tolerable scenes in the movie. We know that Marina Sirtis and Johnatan Frakes are good friends and it shows on screen. You can believe that they are rediscovering their old feelings. Considering it gave us some of the best scenes in PIC and a kickass ending to LD S1(when the Titan shows up), its a shame they never leaned into that chemistry earlier. Probably wanted Riker to be Kirk 2.0 with a girl on every planet. They could have been Worf and Jadzia 1.0 instead.
Now the plot not only doesn't make sense, but what is worse is that its boring. It never confronts its contradictions. It never gives us an indepth look into the villain beyond that they are "evil". It flubs the big reveal and therefore we never get any sense of the animosity between the So'na and the Ba'ku or why there should be. You don't need it. Evil Aliens want fountain of youth for themselves is a fine enough reason for the plot. So having this big mystery undercuts the tension. It undercuts the character arc of the So'na Henchman and it cheapens the main villain. So you are stuck there with a plot that has nonsensical action and character motivations because Piller didn't go over the script one more time. You never get into the story because you are trying to process meaningless subplots. Data learning to play hide and seek for example. The Less said about the Humor the better.
PS best character goes to no one. Don't get me wrong there are actors in this movie I like, but there are no actors that I like in this movie. None of them really add anything to the movie and no performance worth remembering. I would rather you pick an actor and watch one of their good movies instead. F Murray Abrams has several. Donna Murphy was the voice of Mother Gothel in Tangled for example. Don't watch this movie because they are in it. They try, but even they can't lift this movie from its rightful place as the worst Star Trek Movie.
Yes, that is my opinion: Star Trek Insurrection is the worst Trek movie. I may change my mind when it comes to Into Darkness or the rest of the Kelvin verse movies, but of the OG series, its the worst. No real redeeming qualities or excuses. Even ST5 is better, mostly because its bad in a semi-entertaining way. This is a waste of time.
The sky was full of stars, every star an exploding ship. One of ours.
I think the (Slow)Motion Picture is worse because nothing happens other than hours of FX shots, and I hate Generations because it fucks up the main characters, but yeah Insurrection is down near the bottom because it's just so forgettable. The villains (the Baku - lols joking...or am I? Seriously as discussed before exiling your children from paradise marks you as a grade 1 ahole) are uninteresting outside F Murray Abrams OTT performance.
I give props to Anthony Zerbe playing a Goodmiral doing what he's told to do by Starfleet even when cocksure captain Picard tries to lecture him on the Prime Directive - which literally doesn't apply here.
The script is trying to say things about exploitation of resources and moving indigenous peoples but it puts it together all wrong (Baku aren't indigenous, billions of lives being saved during a war is worth moving a hundred people etc).
TMP has the introduction of Connie Refit and modernized Klingons. That alone is worth a lot (though the latter doesn't pay off REALLY for a few more years)
also, you mention the possibility of Riker and Troi being Worf and Jadzia 1.0 but they were already, from the start, Decker and Ilia the Second Try.
(and considering what happened to Collins and Khambatta, the franchise dodged a bullet there, ouch.)
I think the (Slow)Motion Picture is worse because nothing happens other than hours of FX shots, and I hate Generations because it fucks up the main characters, but yeah Insurrection is down near the bottom because it's just so forgettable. The villains (the Baku - lols joking...or am I? Seriously as discussed before exiling your children from paradise marks you as a grade 1 ahole) are uninteresting outside F Murray Abrams OTT performance.
I give props to Anthony Zerbe playing a Goodmiral doing what he's told to do by Starfleet even when cocksure captain Picard tries to lecture him on the Prime Directive - which literally doesn't apply here.
The script is trying to say things about exploitation of resources and moving indigenous peoples but it puts it together all wrong (Baku aren't indigenous, billions of lives being saved during a war is worth moving a hundred people etc).
See there is where I differ: TMP had good FX shots, that quite frankly have stood the test of time and can hang with today's in some respects. It also has a singular purpose of presenting a 2001 style mystery in Star Trek. It has a focus on that and everything else is subordinate to that. It fails in that the majority of the plot is given to the two guest star(side actors) that we don't know and don't care about, but it does work.
STI lacks that focus and has inappropriate humor and character work. It has scenes that make no sense; that Gilbert and Sullivan number is a complete waste of time that ruins the action scene its in. The subplot with the boy and Data has no need to be in the movie. The SFX is ropy, from shit starship action even for the time and for using a CGI rat when a practical one would be better. The final showdown takes place on a set that is ringed with what is essentially a giant bluescreen.
The sky was full of stars, every star an exploding ship. One of ours.
The thing is that you could have done a much better with the setup than they did. Just lean into Starfleet needing more ships elsewhere due to the Borg and the Dominion war. Have it so that Ent-E is really the only ship in a peaceful sector where the Baku live. Then have the Sona decide to make a move when the Federation is occupied elsewhere to expand their little empire. Force Picard to defend the Planet. You could even bring in Worf to be the bringer of bad news that Starfleet is busy. Then do a repeat of the WoK nebula battle to win, combined with some ground action where you see Ent-E security teams led by Worf defend the planet.
Have the Baku be an actual people instead of single village. Have them be stone age wanderers with a global population of about 300k(earth pop during the stone age). The Sona wants their planet because well they got guns and the Baku don't. If you want a call back do the planet of the Vulcan alikes from TNG S3. Have the stakes be how far do you go to protect those that can't protect themselves.
If I had to further, I would lean into Worf being stationed on DS9. Have him call up Kira and Quark to get their help on this. Kira knows many tricks to fight against superior numbers. Quark has many contact across the quadrant. In fact my idea for a climax would have been to have small fleet of Ferengi Privateers(various races led by a Ferengi captain) show up to help. The Baku Planet is worthless to them, it only has gold and silver, but having a favor from the Federation when Trade routes are re-negotiated.
The sky was full of stars, every star an exploding ship. One of ours.
So, thinking about STI, and how it could be better, and also tying in why you would divert a freaking Sovereign class ship with one of the MOST experienced crews out of a war for the life of the Federation.... Well I can't come up that wouldn't have been more sensical with a modernly refit Excelsior or Miranda (other than the involvement of Data).
None of that is the point of the post, I can chalk all that up to "it's a TNG movie and DS9 is doing the war". What got me thinking was the Baku and resources. We know that the Fed is generally supposed to avoid/protect worlds with life (at least sentient life), to the point they shouldn't be doing any resource collection from said planet, but depending on the level of advancement of that species, what about setting up mining operations in their star system? Like, how much potential growth does the Fed owe to an up and coming civilization, how much right do they have to claim space around a given species. I'd be willing to guess there is some "generally" accepted law that everything out to the solar limit is considered property of the species whose planet is in that system, but what about nearby systems? What happens if all systems within x light years get claimed around that system, and when they reach warp, there is no where to go? I think there is some exploration that could have happened there. You have Enterprise diverted to a first contact mission with a species who is surrounded entirely by Federation species, and also the first to achieve warp that had previously been surrounded, who has to not only do basic first contact, but work out the real ethical ramifications of the policies set forward previously and how they clash with the First Contact as well as basic ethics. Or maybe a century ago, the Klingons hoovered up all the non-planetary dilithium, meaning that this species got to warp as normal, but finds it will be rendered pre-warp in a matter of decades if nothing happens and gears up to raid the surrounding area. Does Picard and crew enforce the Prime Directive and treat this new species as nothing more than raiding pirates, or do they stand up against the Federation to help procure this species rights to assistance to rebuild themselves.
This could have even become a two-three parter where the Enterprise starts off doing normal Starfleet stuff, and the beginnings of this species rumblings begin, and the Enterprise has to rescue some diplomats/civilians from a hostage situation/etc. Something low key, but with emotional stakes.
-- Part 2, the Enterprise is called back in as part of a squadron tasked with uncovering some raiding going on in the area (perhaps the Federation has some very extensive dilithium processing here) and discovers it's the new species, that they are desperate for some of these basic tech resources as noted above. They end up getting contacted by some friendly folks from the planet who inform them that the raiders are young people who believe they are doing the only thing they can for their species survival, and these friends want to prevent bloodshed. Picard and crew end up in a face off in a cliff hanger with the rest of Starfleet squadron defending the new species.
-- Part 3, The two groups agree to stand down preferring to avoid bloodshed, but the SF Admiral says he will be back to "resolve the problem" with more force. Picard and crew try to reach out to contacts within the Federation, but they are adamant that, while they are sympathetic, they cannot do anything especially in a time of war for survival of the Federation that risks the defense of Federation space. The Federation and Admiralty see this is a grim task that must be done to remove a distraction they CANNOT afford while fighting the Dominion. The Enterprise starts reaching out to other former allies and friends from throughout the series and while most cannot help out much, Picard and crew eventually field a disparate fleet of ships from all over TNG as a series. The SF Fleet shows up and the two fleets face down. You have the perfectly arranged Star Fleet group on one side set up against a motley group of disparate races/factions (Vulcan ships, friendly Klingons, maybe some Maquis who happened to escape, etc, etc), who are nevertheless formidable. Both sides engage in some maneuvers against each other, both sides not being willing to draw blood against erstwhile allies, but not willing to give ground either. Perhaps you have some limited conflict with terse orders to disable, not destroy. (Maybe this is done better as a series of skirmishes of smaller groups of the two fleets capturing each other with limited/no blood letting) while the two main fleets face off. Either way, during this whole thing, Picard's side and Star Fleets side are talking to each other, trying to advocate Star Fleet's need to defend itself vs Picard's Prime Directive and ethical need to support other people's. Eventually, Picards allies in the Federation convince the President to allow Picard to address the Federation government, who agree to stand down, to provide developmental and resource aid to these people and to amend the Prime Directive/First contact protocols for situations like this. Now if it hadn't been for PIC, I would have at this point have had Picard be given a courts martial where he is either barred from further promotion, but left as captain of the Enterprise, (a nod to Kirk and his crews adventures) or promoted to Admiral and then retired, either way with a note that these actions helped preserve the soul of the Federation, but would otherwise have resulted in a dishonorable discharge.
This would have been able to serve as the final adventures of the TNG folks. If you really needed a death (a la Nemesis), that could provide the trigger to get Picard in front of Federation.
The Federation was at war during season 1 of TNG and the Enterprise never so much as showed the colors on the Cardassian border until after the war was over.
Their diplomatic mission at the start was somewhat war relevant since this was a new Federation protectorate that started the membership process just before the war started and is now right on the front lines. So you want to send somebody politically and diplomatically significant there with a ship able to send one of those big Dominion battlecruisers packing. Because you need to reassure them that they didn't fuck up by choosing a side at the worst possible time.
The Federation was at war during season 1 of TNG and the Enterprise never so much as showed the colors on the Cardassian border until after the war was over.
Their diplomatic mission at the start was somewhat war relevant since this was a new Federation protectorate that started the membership process just before the war started and is now right on the front lines. So you want to send somebody politically and diplomatically significant there with a ship able to send one of those big Dominion battlecruisers packing. Because you need to reassure them that they didn't fuck up by choosing a side at the worst possible time.
The cardassian wars were more border skirmishes based on discussed lore. They heavily impacted those directly involved, but overall, were a minor issue for the Federation as a whole.
The Federation was at war during season 1 of TNG and the Enterprise never so much as showed the colors on the Cardassian border until after the war was over.
Their diplomatic mission at the start was somewhat war relevant since this was a new Federation protectorate that started the membership process just before the war started and is now right on the front lines. So you want to send somebody politically and diplomatically significant there with a ship able to send one of those big Dominion battlecruisers packing. Because you need to reassure them that they didn't fuck up by choosing a side at the worst possible time.
The cardassian wars were more border skirmishes based on discussed lore. They heavily impacted those directly involved, but overall, were a minor issue for the Federation as a whole.
Indeed. I believe it's semi-canon that the Cardassian war was a pretty lopsided affair, until the Borg showed up and wiped out Starfleet.
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AbsoluteZeroThe new film by Quentin KoopantinoRegistered Userregular
I couldn't agree more that Insurrection is the worst Trek movie. What really grinds my gears is this little colony of a handful of privileged hipsters that aren't even from that planet are hogging it so they can be immortal (which they never were to begin with, remember they aren't from there) and continue to get high on their farts for all eternity, rather than letting that go in service of saving billions of lives across the galaxy. And these are supposed to be the good guys. I feel like TV Picard would have taken these assholes to the cleaners.
They're not exactly 'hogging' it. They're living there, and there's nothing stopping people from living on the 99.9% of the planet's surface that they don't seem to have any interest in. You can't even claim that the Prime Directive prevents that, because it doesn't apply.
Yes okay, they have to destroy the planet to work out how to use its energy. We know this because the angry war criminal aliens have said so, so this fact is undeniable and certainly shouldn't be checked independently.
Yes they have lived there for centuries, and yes they are willing to peacefully negotiate with us. The clear right thing to do is violently take their planet because they have natural resources we want to use.
Yes they have lived there for centuries, and yes they are willing to peacefully negotiate with us. The clear right thing to do is violently take their planet because they have natural resources we want to use.
Also we're taking it on behalf of an enemy in a current war (the Son'a are the main producers of Ketracel White in the Alpha Quadrant). I'm sure the Son'a pinky swear not to turn it into a nursery planet for a new breed of super Jem'hadar.
The Federation was at war during season 1 of TNG and the Enterprise never so much as showed the colors on the Cardassian border until after the war was over.
Their diplomatic mission at the start was somewhat war relevant since this was a new Federation protectorate that started the membership process just before the war started and is now right on the front lines. So you want to send somebody politically and diplomatically significant there with a ship able to send one of those big Dominion battlecruisers packing. Because you need to reassure them that they didn't fuck up by choosing a side at the worst possible time.
The cardassian wars were more border skirmishes based on discussed lore. They heavily impacted those directly involved, but overall, were a minor issue for the Federation as a whole.
Indeed. I believe it's semi-canon that the Cardassian war was a pretty lopsided affair, until the Borg showed up and wiped out Starfleet.
It's canon that the Federation didn't commit the bulk of its fleet or any of its top line ships, but it's also canon that the war lasted 22 years and combined deaths were tens of millions of people including over a thousand Starfleet ships.
In terms of the dubiously staggering losses of life Star Trek is full of, this pales compared to the billion that died in the Dominion War (even subtracting that 600 million of those were in the genocide on Cardassian the last few days of the war) but it was still a major conflict.
Yes okay, they have to destroy the planet to work out how to use its energy. We know this because the angry war criminal aliens have said so, so this fact is undeniable and certainly shouldn't be checked independently.
Nowhere in the movie does it say that fact was accepted at face value without checking. In fact, knowing Starfleet, I'd say it safe to assume it was checked several times by several different engineers. Even Data and Geordi accept this fact as true, so insofar as facts of the movie go I'd say it's pretty valid and indisputable. Stupid and illogical, sure, but you can say that about just about every other aspect of STI, so why get hung up on that one.
Yes they have lived there for centuries, and yes they are willing to peacefully negotiate with us.
No they're not. The fact they are unwilling to peacefully negotiate with their own children and would rather force them off the planet to die a slow agonizing death in outer space while pretending they don't even exist tells you everything we need to know about the Baku's attitude towards peaceful negotiation and resource-sharing.
The clear right thing to do is violently take their planet because they have natural resources we want to use.
As was pointed out clearly last time we had that argument, the plan was not violent. In fact, the Son'a went out of their way to find a non-violent way to take the planet from the Baku. They could have allied with the Dominion and sent the Jem'Hadar in, or allied with the Romulans and sent the Remans in, or allied with the Gorn and used them for hatching, or just bombed them from orbit with their own ships. But they went with the Federation, the one power in the Quadrant that would treat the Baku humanely, and developed a long and complex relocation plan that would not only leave the Baku unharmed but even oblivious that anything had happened at all.
Yes okay, they have to destroy the planet to work out how to use its energy. We know this because the angry war criminal aliens have said so, so this fact is undeniable and certainly shouldn't be checked independently.
Nowhere in the movie does it say that fact was accepted at face value without checking. In fact, knowing Starfleet, I'd say it safe to assume it was checked several times by several different engineers. In fact, even Data and Geordi accept this fact as true, so insofar as facts of the movie go I'd say it's pretty valid and indisputable. Stupid and illogical, sure, but you can say that about just about every other aspect of STI, so why get hung up on that one.
Yes they have lived there for centuries, and yes they are willing to peacefully negotiate with us.
No they're not. The fact they are unwilling to peacefully negotiate with their own children and would rather force them off the planet to die a slow agonizing death in outer space while pretending they don't even exist tells you everything we need to know about the Baku's attitude towards peaceful negotiation and resource-sharing.
The clear right thing to do is violently take their planet because they have natural resources we want to use.
As was pointed out clearly last time we had that argument, the plan was not violent. In fact, the Son'a went out of their way to find a non-violent way to take the planet from the Baku. They could have allied with the Dominion and sent the Jem'Hadar in, or allied with the Romulans and sent the Remans in, or allied with the Gorn and used them for hatching, or just bombed them from orbit with their own ships. But they went with the Federation, the one power in the Quadrant that would treat the Baku humanely, and developed a long and complex relocation plan that would not only leave the Baku unharmed but even oblivious that anything had happened at all.
Removal by force is, by definition, violent. There is no other way to frame it. It was the violent removal of people from the planet to extract their resources. The original plan was to literally kidnap all of them. I don't know what else to call a kidnapping.
Also, your framing of what they did to their children is interesting. They exiled them after violent rebellion. That is apparently condemning them to death. As the alternative you would do the exact same thing to those people.
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AbsoluteZeroThe new film by Quentin KoopantinoRegistered Userregular
I wouldn't say condemned to death so much as condemned to not being immortal, which they weren't in the first place. They found the fountain of youth and said fuck all the suffering in the galaxy, we want to live in a hippy commune until the end of time.
I wouldn't say condemned to death so much as condemned to not being immortal, which they weren't in the first place. They found the fountain of youth and said fuck all the suffering in the galaxy, we want to live in a hippy commune until the end of time.
Which anyone can visit for a time. I don't believe the effects have been stated to be limited in time. Spend a portion of your life on a hippie commune and you can be functionally immortal. Or grind it up for the temporary benefit of a relatively smaller number of people.
Admiral Dougherty's team didn't even realize the Son'a and Bak'u were the same species until Picard told them. You can do that with a tricorder. I really don't think we can assume they did any fact-checking regarding Son'a claims.
As for the idea that the Bak'u would reject peaceful cooperation or non-destructive study of the planet's rings, I don't think that holds up to what's shown in the movie. Look at how they treat the Starfleet team and Data before Picard's arrival. Throwing a feast for captured spies and asking only that they disarm themselves—these are not the actions of a people who reject all outsiders. The Bak'u are isolationist, not xenophobic. If Starfleet had approached them in good faith, with a plan that didn't call for the destruction of their home or culture, nothing on screen suggests they would've rejected it.
Besides, if Starfleet had set up elsewhere on the planet, the Bak'u were not in a position to even detect their presence, much less object to it. They only found out about the plan because of Data, and that only happened because the Son'a got trigger happy when he found the holoship. Absent that, the plan goes off without a hitch and the Bak'u don't realize anything's wrong until they start dying.
You have to keep in mind, while Dougherty's goal was to harness metaphasic radiation for the good of the galaxy, Rua'fo's goal was to destroy the Bak'u. That's why he didn't just have the Son'a build a secret colony on the far side of the planet or advocate for a less-invasive procedure—rendering the planet uninhabitable was a feature, not a bug.
Also, the Prime Directive applies to this situation for the same reason it applied to the Klingon Civil War. Even before the Son'a/Bak'u connection was known, it still applied—the fact the Bak'u are warp capable does not in any way give the Federation carte blanche to violate their sovereignty. It certainly doesn't justify the Federation's decision to forcibly remove them from their home in order to claim their resources.
I wouldn't say condemned to death so much as condemned to not being immortal, which they weren't in the first place. They found the fountain of youth and said fuck all the suffering in the galaxy, we want to live in a hippy commune until the end of time.
Which anyone can visit for a time. I don't believe the effects have been stated to be limited in time. Spend a portion of your life on a hippie commune and you can be functionally immortal. Or grind it up for the temporary benefit of a relatively smaller number of people.
Hmm not worth it
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Yes okay, they have to destroy the planet to work out how to use its energy. We know this because the angry war criminal aliens have said so, so this fact is undeniable and certainly shouldn't be checked independently.
Nowhere in the movie does it say that fact was accepted at face value without checking. In fact, knowing Starfleet, I'd say it safe to assume it was checked several times by several different engineers. Even Data and Geordi accept this fact as true, so insofar as facts of the movie go I'd say it's pretty valid and indisputable. Stupid and illogical, sure, but you can say that about just about every other aspect of STI, so why get hung up on that one.
Nowhere does it say it was. Admiral just says 'apparently we need to do this'. There's no hint of questioning it. On a larger scale, you'd expect the question "What if we destroy this source and can't figure out how to reproduce it? Aren't we then fucked?" to be asked, along with a more sane proposal to spend a long time studying it to find a more reliable way, which the Son'a just shut down. The whole thing sounds like the Son'a just presented Starfleet with a Fountain of Youth, provided they do it on their terms.
Yes they have lived there for centuries, and yes they are willing to peacefully negotiate with us.
No they're not. The fact they are unwilling to peacefully negotiate with their own children and would rather force them off the planet to die a slow agonizing death in outer space while pretending they don't even exist tells you everything we need to know about the Baku's attitude towards peaceful negotiation and resource-sharing.
When do they say this? Okay, they argued, they were 'exiled'. And this was enforced how? They were clearly kept from using any part of the planet? Again planets are quite large things.
From the moment they know who they are, the Bak'u keep reaching out. It feels like they left, the Bak'u assumed they'd never see them again, and mourned their loss. It comes across less like callous disregard of their own children and more like the psychotic teenager trying to kill their family with a knife.
The clear right thing to do is violently take their planet because they have natural resources we want to use.
As was pointed out clearly last time we had that argument, the plan was not violent. In fact, the Son'a went out of their way to find a non-violent way to take the planet from the Baku. They could have allied with the Dominion and sent the Jem'Hadar in, or allied with the Romulans and sent the Remans in, or allied with the Gorn and used them for hatching, or just bombed them from orbit with their own ships. But they went with the Federation, the one power in the Quadrant that would treat the Baku humanely, and developed a long and complex relocation plan that would not only leave the Baku unharmed but even oblivious that anything had happened at all.
They went with the Federation because the planet was in Federation space. This deal, but also you'll have to invade the Federation to get it is a much harder sell.
And the original plan from the Bak'u is to do what was done to them, an eye for an eye. They wanted their parents forced off the planet to grow old and die. Again I make the psychotic teenager comparison.
Nobody remembers the singer. The song remains.
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
I wouldn't say condemned to death so much as condemned to not being immortal, which they weren't in the first place. They found the fountain of youth and said fuck all the suffering in the galaxy, we want to live in a hippy commune until the end of time.
Which anyone can visit for a time. I don't believe the effects have been stated to be limited in time. Spend a portion of your life on a hippie commune and you can be functionally immortal. Or grind it up for the temporary benefit of a relatively smaller number of people.
Yeah, there are so many alternatives to "kidnap people, grind their planet into youth juice" that virtually any other point of discussion is simply... irrelevant. No communication was even attempted because, gasp, it turns out the war criminals lied. Then once it's revealed that there is no reason at all to not talk to the locals, the jerk admiral simply doubles-down on trusting the clearly evil weapon dealers because his ass is on the line. It's only at the point where murdering other Starfleet personnel would be something he directly knows about and acted on is when he finally balks.
The locals aren't hogging the planet, they just live there and nobody bothered to fucking talk to them. They didn't cruelly exile their children for no reason, their asshole children led a violent uprising. They were "punished" by sending them out into space which is where they wanted to go anyway, then the kids decided "hey, let's make murder our business!" Then came back with a plan to get the Federation to destroy an utterly priceless and irreplaceable world while forcing mass displacement of a local population.
There's absolutely no rational way to twist this situation where the locals are the bad guys, the kids are the victims, and the Federation is doing the right thing.
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WeaverWho are you?What do you want?Registered Userregular
Yes they have lived there for centuries, and yes they are willing to peacefully negotiate with us.
No they're not. The fact they are unwilling to peacefully negotiate with their own children and would rather force them off the planet to die a slow agonizing death in outer space while pretending they don't even exist tells you everything we need to know about the Baku's attitude towards peaceful negotiation and resource-sharing.
When do they say this? Okay, they argued, they were 'exiled'. And this was enforced how? They were clearly kept from using any part of the planet? Again planets are quite large things.
From the moment they know who they are, the Bak'u keep reaching out. It feels like they left, the Bak'u assumed they'd never see them again, and mourned their loss. It comes across less like callous disregard of their own children and more like the psychotic teenager trying to kill their family with a knife.
Well I agree the entire "children" subplot is idiotic and makes absolutely no sense. How did a stone-age village of 100 people enforced a planet-wide ban using no technology is a fair question. Other questions include, with what weapons did these children revolt? How did the unarmed no-tech hippy commune defend itself and win? Where the hell did they find spaceships to leave the planet on? And if the kids had spaceships to leave, why didn't they use them to fight back? Not a fucking thing about it makes an ounce of sense.
But it's what the movie tells us happened. The kids "revolted" by not passively accepting their parents' luddite philosophy and wanting a different life for themselves, the parents reacted by shooting them off into space and pretending they were never born. And the point where the movie establishes that is the point where the Baku become the bad guys and I start cheering for the Son'a to kill them off.
I mean all these points are addressed in the film.
Dougherty says Starfleet and the Federation scientists analysed the phenomenon and couldn't duplicate the Son'a technology.
He says the effects (again checked by Fed scientists) takes years to be effective - so for people to benefit they have to waste their life on this dumb planet.
He says they can harness it and save billions. Billions vs hundreds is a stupid no brainer argument.
He explains the Prime Directive doesn't apply because it explicitly applies to indigenous populations and the Baku are colonists.
The Baku say their children rebelled and their response was exile! The Son'a side was they were abandoned. And the kids deciding that fuck their parents, maybe they'd like a replicator or 2 and being told no, off the planet you go is rather telling about the Baku.
The Son'a have a ship - if they wanted the Baku dead, 1 photon torpedo would do it. But they don't do this. They just want the same health benefits their parents have that were denied to them...(you know...like kids today?)
STI is horribly written, and clearly wants you to side with the Space Amish but it doesn't hold up to any scrutiny because the Baku are horrible, selfish people.
Yes they have lived there for centuries, and yes they are willing to peacefully negotiate with us.
No they're not. The fact they are unwilling to peacefully negotiate with their own children and would rather force them off the planet to die a slow agonizing death in outer space while pretending they don't even exist tells you everything we need to know about the Baku's attitude towards peaceful negotiation and resource-sharing.
When do they say this? Okay, they argued, they were 'exiled'. And this was enforced how? They were clearly kept from using any part of the planet? Again planets are quite large things.
From the moment they know who they are, the Bak'u keep reaching out. It feels like they left, the Bak'u assumed they'd never see them again, and mourned their loss. It comes across less like callous disregard of their own children and more like the psychotic teenager trying to kill their family with a knife.
Well I agree the entire "children" subplot is idiotic and makes absolutely no sense. How did a stone-age village of 100 people enforced a planet-wide ban using no technology is a fair question. Other questions include, with what weapons did these children revolt? How did the unarmed no-tech hippy commune defend itself and win? Where the hell did they find spaceships to leave the planet on? And if the kids had spaceships to leave, why didn't they use them to fight back? Not a fucking thing about it makes an ounce of sense.
But it's what the movie tells us happened. The kids "revolted" by not passively accepting their parents' luddite philosophy and wanting a different life for themselves, the parents reacted by shooting them off into space and pretending they were never born. And the point where the movie establishes that is the point where the Baku become the bad guys and I start cheering for the Son'a to kill them off.
Considering that the Son’a created a slave empire and happily supplied a fascist empire’s genocidal campaign of conquest, assuming their rebellion was just wanting a different life is making a lot of assumptions.
When they caught Dougherty’s team—and the Son’a—after Data revealed the duck blind, does that really look like a society that would violently repress mere dissent?
When Rua’fo dismisses Picard’s basic logistical and ethical concerns, when he later murders his primary ally for doing the same, does that strike you as someone who pursues their goals through debate and negotiation?
If we’re drawing inferences based on what’s show on screen, it’s far more likely that Rua’fo led an attempted coup and fled the planet when it failed. After all, there’s no indication that the Bak’u had the ability or inclination to prevent any other settlement on the planet. There’s also no indication that the Son’a were prevented from returning by a toner other than their empire-building.
You do not, under any circumstances, have to root for the genocidal slavers.
I’d also like to point out that the question of who bears fault in the Son’a exile is separate from the question of Rua’fo and Dougherty’ plan.
Even if you consider the historical context in a light most favorable to the Son’a—that the Bak’u violently repressed them and sentenced them to slow death for questioning their traditions—it doesn’t alter the fact that Rua’fo and Dougherty are engaging in an act of genocide and imperialism when they plan to forcibly remove the Bak’u so the Federation can exploit their resources.
Genocide and imperialism are wrong, even if the targets are unlikeable.
And, since we’re repeating greatest hits, the fact the Bak’u aren’t native to the planet has no bearing on the situation. If Gowron conquered Romulus and exiled its population, the fact Romulans aren’t native to the planet would in no way justify his actions.
How is it genocide!?!??! They are moving to another planet! And the Baku are colonists themselves so how is it Imperialist!?!
There is a big difference between moving the Romulans off Romulus and moving the Baku out of Eden. Everyone should benefit from Eden, not just the Baku.
And the Baku are Boomer Republicans - I couldn't care less about them.
It's not an act of genocide. The Baku aren't getting killed, they're being moved to an identical settlement in an manner so gentle they won't even notice anything happened at all. Trust me, this is not what Israel is doing to the Palestinians right now.
And whether or not it's imperialism depends on whether or not you consider the Baku have a legitimate claim to the fountain of youth. That's arguable, as this very thread demonstrated time and time again. The Baku's only claim is "finders keepers", which is weak at best and doesn't negate the Son'a claim to the same resource.
EDIT: That's actually pretty important because of the idiotic "children" subplot of STI. Any claim made by the Baku to the fountain of youth planet not only applies to the Son'a, it's stronger for them since, unlike the Baku, the Son'a are actually native to that planet. And any claim of imperialism falls apart when the legitimate owners of the resource are the ones asking you for help in exploiting it.
How is it genocide!?!??! They are moving to another planet! And the Baku are colonists themselves so how is it Imperialist!?!
There is a big difference between moving the Romulans off Romulus and moving the Baku out of Eden. Everyone should benefit from Eden, not just the Baku.
And the Baku are Boomer Republicans - I couldn't care less about them.
Forcibly removing a people is a form of genocide. This is a settled question. The Cherokee were “simply moved” to another location—and it was genocide.
Also, if your position is that, by exiling them, the Bak’u effectively sentenced the Son’a to death, how would exiling the Bak’u be any different? The only reason the Son’a lasted as long as they did is through the use of advanced technology—which the Bak’u don’t have.
The Federation is a hegemonic superpower that attempts to claim a planet from its inhabitants with the explicit goal of harvesting its resources, and it doesn’t bother negotiating with those inhabitants because their lack of technological power makes them politically irrelevant. If that’s not imperialism, nothing is. And the origin of the inhabitants has no bearing on the question. Australia is a former colony. If the United States invaded it to bolster its control of the Pacific, that would be an act of imperialism.
As to the point about everyone having a right to Eden, the Bak’u are not preventing this. There is nothing in the movie that suggests the Bak’u oppose sharing or studying the metaphasic radiation. The Son’a were not exiled to protect its secret, but because they no longer wanted to be luddites. The presence of the Bak’u was only an issue because Rua’fo wanted to harm them and the Federation was too impatient to look for an alternative.
I mean all these points are addressed in the film.
Dougherty says Starfleet and the Federation scientists analysed the phenomenon and couldn't duplicate the Son'a technology.
He says the effects (again checked by Fed scientists) takes years to be effective - so for people to benefit they have to waste their life on this dumb planet.
He says they can harness it and save billions. Billions vs hundreds is a stupid no brainer argument.
He explains the Prime Directive doesn't apply because it explicitly applies to indigenous populations and the Baku are colonists.
The Baku say their children rebelled and their response was exile! The Son'a side was they were abandoned. And the kids deciding that fuck their parents, maybe they'd like a replicator or 2 and being told no, off the planet you go is rather telling about the Baku.
The Son'a have a ship - if they wanted the Baku dead, 1 photon torpedo would do it. But they don't do this. They just want the same health benefits their parents have that were denied to them...(you know...like kids today?)
STI is horribly written, and clearly wants you to side with the Space Amish but it doesn't hold up to any scrutiny because the Baku are horrible, selfish people.
Conquering a planet by force to strip mine their natural resources violates every tenant of the Federation.
*sigh* I'm gonna leave you guys with your opinions but no it's not genocide (look up genocide in the dictionary) and no the Feds aren't conquering the planet, they're asking a tiny group not to hog all the healing juice.
If people want to support the Boomer Republicans that exiled their children for having opinions they didn't like and refuse to give up Eden to help billions of others - cool. That's your right.
Ad I said before STI had things to say and says them possibly the worst way.
*sigh* I'm gonna leave you guys with your opinions but no it's not genocide (look up genocide in the dictionary) and no the Feds aren't conquering the planet, they're asking a tiny group not to hog all the healing juice.
If people want to support the Boomer Republicans that exiled their children for having opinions they didn't like and refuse to give up Eden to help billions of others - cool. That's your right.
Ad I said before STI had things to say and says them possibly the worst way.
It is ethnic cleansing, and conquering. What other word do you have for imposing your will on another planet/government while removing all the local inhabitants?
Can we all just agree that it was a bad episode movie, with a set-up that - examined in detail and at length, outside of the story/moral message that it was trying, with typical nineties Trek's clumsy earnestness and complete lack of subtlety, to deliver - severely undercuts that same message?
*sigh* I'm gonna leave you guys with your opinions but no it's not genocide (look up genocide in the dictionary) and no the Feds aren't conquering the planet, they're asking a tiny group not to hog all the healing juice.
If people want to support the Boomer Republicans that exiled their children for having opinions they didn't like and refuse to give up Eden to help billions of others - cool. That's your right.
Ad I said before STI had things to say and says them possibly the worst way.
This is one of those few times Im pretty ok with "Both sides are wrong". What the Fed was doing was functionally equivalent to what the US did to indigenous populations through the 1800 and early 1900's with moving populations to reservations from their existing homelands against their will. That is also generally considered genocide.
What the Ba'ku did to the So'na was also pretty despicable and amounted to slow death penalty to their children. ( I do consider forced removal of immortality a death penalty). Like exiling someone into a wasteland, you are killing them, you are just trying to absolve yourself of directly killing them.
*sigh* I'm gonna leave you guys with your opinions but no it's not genocide (look up genocide in the dictionary) and no the Feds aren't conquering the planet, they're asking a tiny group not to hog all the healing juice.
If people want to support the Boomer Republicans that exiled their children for having opinions they didn't like and refuse to give up Eden to help billions of others - cool. That's your right.
Ad I said before STI had things to say and says them possibly the worst way.
Point of order: the Federation did not ask. They planned to secretly kidnap the population without them realizing anything was amiss before their planet was gone.
That’s kinda, like, the whole issue. There’s all this argument that the Bak’u are “hogging” immortality, but…they’re not. They’re not exploiting it, because they have neither the ability nor inclination to do so, but there is nothing to suggest they would prevent (or even be able to prevent) someone else from doing so.
How is it genocide!?!??! They are moving to another planet! And the Baku are colonists themselves so how is it Imperialist!?!
There is a big difference between moving the Romulans off Romulus and moving the Baku out of Eden. Everyone should benefit from Eden, not just the Baku.
And the Baku are Boomer Republicans - I couldn't care less about them.
Forcibly removing a people is a form of genocide. This is a settled question. The Cherokee were “simply moved” to another location—and it was genocide.
Also, if your position is that, by exiling them, the Bak’u effectively sentenced the Son’a to death, how would exiling the Bak’u be any different? The only reason the Son’a lasted as long as they did is through the use of advanced technology—which the Bak’u don’t have.
The Federation is a hegemonic superpower that attempts to claim a planet from its inhabitants with the explicit goal of harvesting its resources, and it doesn’t bother negotiating with those inhabitants because their lack of technological power makes them politically irrelevant. If that’s not imperialism, nothing is. And the origin of the inhabitants has no bearing on the question. Australia is a former colony. If the United States invaded it to bolster its control of the Pacific, that would be an act of imperialism.
As to the point about everyone having a right to Eden, the Bak’u are not preventing this. There is nothing in the movie that suggests the Bak’u oppose sharing or studying the metaphasic radiation. The Son’a were not exiled to protect its secret, but because they no longer wanted to be luddites. The presence of the Bak’u was only an issue because Rua’fo wanted to harm them and the Federation was too impatient to look for an alternative.
Every claim you made is shown wrong in the movie.
First of all, the conditions of the Baku move is so far removed from the Trail of Tears I don't even see a comparison beyond "some form of physical movement was involved".
Second, unlike the Baku, the Federation won't just dump the exiles in outer space and forget about them. The Federation takes care of people, and will insure healthcare of the Baku after deportation. This is not explicitly stated in the movie, sure, but it's pretty much stated in the 4 decades of Federation benevolence shown on screen before the movie.
Third, the Son'a have as much, if not more, claim to the planet as the Baku, and they did negotiate with the Federation, so that problem's solved.
Fourth, the Baku are explicitly preventing this by exiling from the entire planet (somehow) anyone who uses technology more sophisticated than hitting two stones together to make fire. How a post-scarcity space-faring civilization is supposed to fell "welcome" or "accepted" in sharing a planet with such radicals is beyond me.
*sigh* I'm gonna leave you guys with your opinions but no it's not genocide (look up genocide in the dictionary) and no the Feds aren't conquering the planet, they're asking a tiny group not to hog all the healing juice.
If people want to support the Boomer Republicans that exiled their children for having opinions they didn't like and refuse to give up Eden to help billions of others - cool. That's your right.
Ad I said before STI had things to say and says them possibly the worst way.
It is ethnic cleansing, and conquering. What other word do you have for imposing your will on another planet/government while removing all the local inhabitants?
Well for one thing I don't use the word "imposing my will" when the owners of the planet came to me offering a resource-sharing agreement, and second I don't use the word "local inhabitants" to describe squatters who just sat down somewhere and yelled "finders keepers".
Posts
Star Trek:Insurrection Aka the one where we learn that Technology is bad.
Its the only Movie in the Franchise written by Michael Piller, which when you consider how important he was to making TNG great, is really sad, because this movie is a stinker. Its not bad in the ST5 where William Shatner got too much power of the story and we got a schlocky action story. No, its plain bad.
Plot is like this: Its the during Dominion war, not that we hear anything about that apart from a few off-screen references. On a simple pastoral planet inhabited by simple pastoral people... Suddenly Data appeares and goes amok, shooting a hole in a Starfleet holo disgused surveillance post surveying the simple pastoral people. Starfleet has sent The Ent-E with Picard&Co to hold down the fort in a backwoods part of the galaxy, doing diplomacy while other Starfleet captains have to fight Jem'hadar. During one of these diplomatic events, Picard is told about Data and he decides to go there to retrieve him, figuring that he has a better chance of doing so than any other man. Picard gets help from Worf who is here because ghgjaderdsyb..(No really we don't get any explanation why he is there in the movie). After doing a really bad Gilbert and Sullivan karaoke to distract Data, they succeed.
Data it seems had gone into defense mode as a result of damage on the Pastoral Planet we now learn is named Ba'ku. It seems he discovered a sinister plot to relocate the Ba'ku people from their planet by beaming them away from their homes and putting them on a holodeck equipped ship. Why? Because Ba'ku is a fountain of youth planet that makes people younger as they bask in the radiation of the rings that encircle it. The Simple Pastoral People are actually centuries old travelers from an advanced civilization that decided to settle here. Suffice to say that Starfleet is working with an evil collection of Alien Races lead by the So'na to steal their planet and the fountain of youth. Picard opposes this because its wrong. Oh, and the settlement is the only settlement on the planet. The inhabitants are all very enlightened and I can't go on recaping anymore. Any complaints, go watch it yourself.
Now we have talked in many threads about the Ba'ku and their planet so I won't go into that here. I will however point one thing out in this entire conflict: The Ba'ku are the good aliens and they all look indistinguishable to humans. They are also all white... like they are all played by white actors that could have come straight out of a model catalog. Their houses... I don't know how to describe them but as very California Style suburban architecture, you have probably seen it in several movies/tv shows. it denotes that the person living there is both rich and white.
The So'na cabal on the other hand has POCs... playing Alien henchmen in heavy makeup. Also the So'na get frequent facelifts so they look likes stretched version of themselves because they want to halt their aging process. This look as ridiculous as it sounds and is a reference to Hollywood's plastic surgery craze at the time... a craze that has since been surpassed by Botox. Sorry, F Murray Abrams! You sat in the makeup chair for nothing, our idea of enormous vanity is freezing your face, injecting fillers into the lips and removing fat from the cheeks.
The SFX are shit. Compared to what DS9 was doing at the same time and considering the vastly bigger budget of the movie, there was not one sequence that stood out. There where scenes where the greenscreen looked ridiculous. The Starship battles where boring and a waste of time, but compared to the ground part... no still a waste of time. The Ground part was the crew standing around shooting at greenscreen drones that swooped down on them from above. The Effects would have been shit if they had been used in ST5 and they have not aged well.
Characterwise.... There was nothing of value in almost our entire crew... with one exception: Troi and Riker. Honestly, the few scenes where they where rekindling their romance was the only tolerable scenes in the movie. We know that Marina Sirtis and Johnatan Frakes are good friends and it shows on screen. You can believe that they are rediscovering their old feelings. Considering it gave us some of the best scenes in PIC and a kickass ending to LD S1(when the Titan shows up), its a shame they never leaned into that chemistry earlier. Probably wanted Riker to be Kirk 2.0 with a girl on every planet. They could have been Worf and Jadzia 1.0 instead.
Now the plot not only doesn't make sense, but what is worse is that its boring. It never confronts its contradictions. It never gives us an indepth look into the villain beyond that they are "evil". It flubs the big reveal and therefore we never get any sense of the animosity between the So'na and the Ba'ku or why there should be. You don't need it. Evil Aliens want fountain of youth for themselves is a fine enough reason for the plot. So having this big mystery undercuts the tension. It undercuts the character arc of the So'na Henchman and it cheapens the main villain. So you are stuck there with a plot that has nonsensical action and character motivations because Piller didn't go over the script one more time. You never get into the story because you are trying to process meaningless subplots. Data learning to play hide and seek for example. The Less said about the Humor the better.
PS best character goes to no one. Don't get me wrong there are actors in this movie I like, but there are no actors that I like in this movie. None of them really add anything to the movie and no performance worth remembering. I would rather you pick an actor and watch one of their good movies instead. F Murray Abrams has several. Donna Murphy was the voice of Mother Gothel in Tangled for example. Don't watch this movie because they are in it. They try, but even they can't lift this movie from its rightful place as the worst Star Trek Movie.
Yes, that is my opinion: Star Trek Insurrection is the worst Trek movie. I may change my mind when it comes to Into Darkness or the rest of the Kelvin verse movies, but of the OG series, its the worst. No real redeeming qualities or excuses. Even ST5 is better, mostly because its bad in a semi-entertaining way. This is a waste of time.
I give props to Anthony Zerbe playing a Goodmiral doing what he's told to do by Starfleet even when cocksure captain Picard tries to lecture him on the Prime Directive - which literally doesn't apply here.
The script is trying to say things about exploitation of resources and moving indigenous peoples but it puts it together all wrong (Baku aren't indigenous, billions of lives being saved during a war is worth moving a hundred people etc).
(and considering what happened to Collins and Khambatta, the franchise dodged a bullet there, ouch.)
See there is where I differ: TMP had good FX shots, that quite frankly have stood the test of time and can hang with today's in some respects. It also has a singular purpose of presenting a 2001 style mystery in Star Trek. It has a focus on that and everything else is subordinate to that. It fails in that the majority of the plot is given to the two guest star(side actors) that we don't know and don't care about, but it does work.
STI lacks that focus and has inappropriate humor and character work. It has scenes that make no sense; that Gilbert and Sullivan number is a complete waste of time that ruins the action scene its in. The subplot with the boy and Data has no need to be in the movie. The SFX is ropy, from shit starship action even for the time and for using a CGI rat when a practical one would be better. The final showdown takes place on a set that is ringed with what is essentially a giant bluescreen.
Have the Baku be an actual people instead of single village. Have them be stone age wanderers with a global population of about 300k(earth pop during the stone age). The Sona wants their planet because well they got guns and the Baku don't. If you want a call back do the planet of the Vulcan alikes from TNG S3. Have the stakes be how far do you go to protect those that can't protect themselves.
If I had to further, I would lean into Worf being stationed on DS9. Have him call up Kira and Quark to get their help on this. Kira knows many tricks to fight against superior numbers. Quark has many contact across the quadrant. In fact my idea for a climax would have been to have small fleet of Ferengi Privateers(various races led by a Ferengi captain) show up to help. The Baku Planet is worthless to them, it only has gold and silver, but having a favor from the Federation when Trade routes are re-negotiated.
None of that is the point of the post, I can chalk all that up to "it's a TNG movie and DS9 is doing the war". What got me thinking was the Baku and resources. We know that the Fed is generally supposed to avoid/protect worlds with life (at least sentient life), to the point they shouldn't be doing any resource collection from said planet, but depending on the level of advancement of that species, what about setting up mining operations in their star system? Like, how much potential growth does the Fed owe to an up and coming civilization, how much right do they have to claim space around a given species. I'd be willing to guess there is some "generally" accepted law that everything out to the solar limit is considered property of the species whose planet is in that system, but what about nearby systems? What happens if all systems within x light years get claimed around that system, and when they reach warp, there is no where to go? I think there is some exploration that could have happened there. You have Enterprise diverted to a first contact mission with a species who is surrounded entirely by Federation species, and also the first to achieve warp that had previously been surrounded, who has to not only do basic first contact, but work out the real ethical ramifications of the policies set forward previously and how they clash with the First Contact as well as basic ethics. Or maybe a century ago, the Klingons hoovered up all the non-planetary dilithium, meaning that this species got to warp as normal, but finds it will be rendered pre-warp in a matter of decades if nothing happens and gears up to raid the surrounding area. Does Picard and crew enforce the Prime Directive and treat this new species as nothing more than raiding pirates, or do they stand up against the Federation to help procure this species rights to assistance to rebuild themselves.
This could have even become a two-three parter where the Enterprise starts off doing normal Starfleet stuff, and the beginnings of this species rumblings begin, and the Enterprise has to rescue some diplomats/civilians from a hostage situation/etc. Something low key, but with emotional stakes.
-- Part 2, the Enterprise is called back in as part of a squadron tasked with uncovering some raiding going on in the area (perhaps the Federation has some very extensive dilithium processing here) and discovers it's the new species, that they are desperate for some of these basic tech resources as noted above. They end up getting contacted by some friendly folks from the planet who inform them that the raiders are young people who believe they are doing the only thing they can for their species survival, and these friends want to prevent bloodshed. Picard and crew end up in a face off in a cliff hanger with the rest of Starfleet squadron defending the new species.
-- Part 3, The two groups agree to stand down preferring to avoid bloodshed, but the SF Admiral says he will be back to "resolve the problem" with more force. Picard and crew try to reach out to contacts within the Federation, but they are adamant that, while they are sympathetic, they cannot do anything especially in a time of war for survival of the Federation that risks the defense of Federation space. The Federation and Admiralty see this is a grim task that must be done to remove a distraction they CANNOT afford while fighting the Dominion. The Enterprise starts reaching out to other former allies and friends from throughout the series and while most cannot help out much, Picard and crew eventually field a disparate fleet of ships from all over TNG as a series. The SF Fleet shows up and the two fleets face down. You have the perfectly arranged Star Fleet group on one side set up against a motley group of disparate races/factions (Vulcan ships, friendly Klingons, maybe some Maquis who happened to escape, etc, etc), who are nevertheless formidable. Both sides engage in some maneuvers against each other, both sides not being willing to draw blood against erstwhile allies, but not willing to give ground either. Perhaps you have some limited conflict with terse orders to disable, not destroy. (Maybe this is done better as a series of skirmishes of smaller groups of the two fleets capturing each other with limited/no blood letting) while the two main fleets face off. Either way, during this whole thing, Picard's side and Star Fleets side are talking to each other, trying to advocate Star Fleet's need to defend itself vs Picard's Prime Directive and ethical need to support other people's. Eventually, Picards allies in the Federation convince the President to allow Picard to address the Federation government, who agree to stand down, to provide developmental and resource aid to these people and to amend the Prime Directive/First contact protocols for situations like this. Now if it hadn't been for PIC, I would have at this point have had Picard be given a courts martial where he is either barred from further promotion, but left as captain of the Enterprise, (a nod to Kirk and his crews adventures) or promoted to Admiral and then retired, either way with a note that these actions helped preserve the soul of the Federation, but would otherwise have resulted in a dishonorable discharge.
This would have been able to serve as the final adventures of the TNG folks. If you really needed a death (a la Nemesis), that could provide the trigger to get Picard in front of Federation.
GOD that movie could have been so much better.
Their diplomatic mission at the start was somewhat war relevant since this was a new Federation protectorate that started the membership process just before the war started and is now right on the front lines. So you want to send somebody politically and diplomatically significant there with a ship able to send one of those big Dominion battlecruisers packing. Because you need to reassure them that they didn't fuck up by choosing a side at the worst possible time.
The cardassian wars were more border skirmishes based on discussed lore. They heavily impacted those directly involved, but overall, were a minor issue for the Federation as a whole.
Indeed. I believe it's semi-canon that the Cardassian war was a pretty lopsided affair, until the Borg showed up and wiped out Starfleet.
Yes okay, they have to destroy the planet to work out how to use its energy. We know this because the angry war criminal aliens have said so, so this fact is undeniable and certainly shouldn't be checked independently.
Also we're taking it on behalf of an enemy in a current war (the Son'a are the main producers of Ketracel White in the Alpha Quadrant). I'm sure the Son'a pinky swear not to turn it into a nursery planet for a new breed of super Jem'hadar.
It's canon that the Federation didn't commit the bulk of its fleet or any of its top line ships, but it's also canon that the war lasted 22 years and combined deaths were tens of millions of people including over a thousand Starfleet ships.
In terms of the dubiously staggering losses of life Star Trek is full of, this pales compared to the billion that died in the Dominion War (even subtracting that 600 million of those were in the genocide on Cardassian the last few days of the war) but it was still a major conflict.
No they're not. The fact they are unwilling to peacefully negotiate with their own children and would rather force them off the planet to die a slow agonizing death in outer space while pretending they don't even exist tells you everything we need to know about the Baku's attitude towards peaceful negotiation and resource-sharing.
As was pointed out clearly last time we had that argument, the plan was not violent. In fact, the Son'a went out of their way to find a non-violent way to take the planet from the Baku. They could have allied with the Dominion and sent the Jem'Hadar in, or allied with the Romulans and sent the Remans in, or allied with the Gorn and used them for hatching, or just bombed them from orbit with their own ships. But they went with the Federation, the one power in the Quadrant that would treat the Baku humanely, and developed a long and complex relocation plan that would not only leave the Baku unharmed but even oblivious that anything had happened at all.
Removal by force is, by definition, violent. There is no other way to frame it. It was the violent removal of people from the planet to extract their resources. The original plan was to literally kidnap all of them. I don't know what else to call a kidnapping.
Also, your framing of what they did to their children is interesting. They exiled them after violent rebellion. That is apparently condemning them to death. As the alternative you would do the exact same thing to those people.
Which anyone can visit for a time. I don't believe the effects have been stated to be limited in time. Spend a portion of your life on a hippie commune and you can be functionally immortal. Or grind it up for the temporary benefit of a relatively smaller number of people.
As for the idea that the Bak'u would reject peaceful cooperation or non-destructive study of the planet's rings, I don't think that holds up to what's shown in the movie. Look at how they treat the Starfleet team and Data before Picard's arrival. Throwing a feast for captured spies and asking only that they disarm themselves—these are not the actions of a people who reject all outsiders. The Bak'u are isolationist, not xenophobic. If Starfleet had approached them in good faith, with a plan that didn't call for the destruction of their home or culture, nothing on screen suggests they would've rejected it.
Besides, if Starfleet had set up elsewhere on the planet, the Bak'u were not in a position to even detect their presence, much less object to it. They only found out about the plan because of Data, and that only happened because the Son'a got trigger happy when he found the holoship. Absent that, the plan goes off without a hitch and the Bak'u don't realize anything's wrong until they start dying.
You have to keep in mind, while Dougherty's goal was to harness metaphasic radiation for the good of the galaxy, Rua'fo's goal was to destroy the Bak'u. That's why he didn't just have the Son'a build a secret colony on the far side of the planet or advocate for a less-invasive procedure—rendering the planet uninhabitable was a feature, not a bug.
Also, the Prime Directive applies to this situation for the same reason it applied to the Klingon Civil War. Even before the Son'a/Bak'u connection was known, it still applied—the fact the Bak'u are warp capable does not in any way give the Federation carte blanche to violate their sovereignty. It certainly doesn't justify the Federation's decision to forcibly remove them from their home in order to claim their resources.
Hmm not worth it
When do they say this? Okay, they argued, they were 'exiled'. And this was enforced how? They were clearly kept from using any part of the planet? Again planets are quite large things.
From the moment they know who they are, the Bak'u keep reaching out. It feels like they left, the Bak'u assumed they'd never see them again, and mourned their loss. It comes across less like callous disregard of their own children and more like the psychotic teenager trying to kill their family with a knife.
They went with the Federation because the planet was in Federation space. This deal, but also you'll have to invade the Federation to get it is a much harder sell.
And the original plan from the Bak'u is to do what was done to them, an eye for an eye. They wanted their parents forced off the planet to grow old and die. Again I make the psychotic teenager comparison.
Yeah, there are so many alternatives to "kidnap people, grind their planet into youth juice" that virtually any other point of discussion is simply... irrelevant. No communication was even attempted because, gasp, it turns out the war criminals lied. Then once it's revealed that there is no reason at all to not talk to the locals, the jerk admiral simply doubles-down on trusting the clearly evil weapon dealers because his ass is on the line. It's only at the point where murdering other Starfleet personnel would be something he directly knows about and acted on is when he finally balks.
The locals aren't hogging the planet, they just live there and nobody bothered to fucking talk to them. They didn't cruelly exile their children for no reason, their asshole children led a violent uprising. They were "punished" by sending them out into space which is where they wanted to go anyway, then the kids decided "hey, let's make murder our business!" Then came back with a plan to get the Federation to destroy an utterly priceless and irreplaceable world while forcing mass displacement of a local population.
There's absolutely no rational way to twist this situation where the locals are the bad guys, the kids are the victims, and the Federation is doing the right thing.
Well I agree the entire "children" subplot is idiotic and makes absolutely no sense. How did a stone-age village of 100 people enforced a planet-wide ban using no technology is a fair question. Other questions include, with what weapons did these children revolt? How did the unarmed no-tech hippy commune defend itself and win? Where the hell did they find spaceships to leave the planet on? And if the kids had spaceships to leave, why didn't they use them to fight back? Not a fucking thing about it makes an ounce of sense.
But it's what the movie tells us happened. The kids "revolted" by not passively accepting their parents' luddite philosophy and wanting a different life for themselves, the parents reacted by shooting them off into space and pretending they were never born. And the point where the movie establishes that is the point where the Baku become the bad guys and I start cheering for the Son'a to kill them off.
Dougherty says Starfleet and the Federation scientists analysed the phenomenon and couldn't duplicate the Son'a technology.
He says the effects (again checked by Fed scientists) takes years to be effective - so for people to benefit they have to waste their life on this dumb planet.
He says they can harness it and save billions. Billions vs hundreds is a stupid no brainer argument.
He explains the Prime Directive doesn't apply because it explicitly applies to indigenous populations and the Baku are colonists.
The Baku say their children rebelled and their response was exile! The Son'a side was they were abandoned. And the kids deciding that fuck their parents, maybe they'd like a replicator or 2 and being told no, off the planet you go is rather telling about the Baku.
The Son'a have a ship - if they wanted the Baku dead, 1 photon torpedo would do it. But they don't do this. They just want the same health benefits their parents have that were denied to them...(you know...like kids today?)
STI is horribly written, and clearly wants you to side with the Space Amish but it doesn't hold up to any scrutiny because the Baku are horrible, selfish people.
Considering that the Son’a created a slave empire and happily supplied a fascist empire’s genocidal campaign of conquest, assuming their rebellion was just wanting a different life is making a lot of assumptions.
When they caught Dougherty’s team—and the Son’a—after Data revealed the duck blind, does that really look like a society that would violently repress mere dissent?
When Rua’fo dismisses Picard’s basic logistical and ethical concerns, when he later murders his primary ally for doing the same, does that strike you as someone who pursues their goals through debate and negotiation?
If we’re drawing inferences based on what’s show on screen, it’s far more likely that Rua’fo led an attempted coup and fled the planet when it failed. After all, there’s no indication that the Bak’u had the ability or inclination to prevent any other settlement on the planet. There’s also no indication that the Son’a were prevented from returning by a toner other than their empire-building.
You do not, under any circumstances, have to root for the genocidal slavers.
Even if you consider the historical context in a light most favorable to the Son’a—that the Bak’u violently repressed them and sentenced them to slow death for questioning their traditions—it doesn’t alter the fact that Rua’fo and Dougherty are engaging in an act of genocide and imperialism when they plan to forcibly remove the Bak’u so the Federation can exploit their resources.
Genocide and imperialism are wrong, even if the targets are unlikeable.
And, since we’re repeating greatest hits, the fact the Bak’u aren’t native to the planet has no bearing on the situation. If Gowron conquered Romulus and exiled its population, the fact Romulans aren’t native to the planet would in no way justify his actions.
There is a big difference between moving the Romulans off Romulus and moving the Baku out of Eden. Everyone should benefit from Eden, not just the Baku.
And the Baku are Boomer Republicans - I couldn't care less about them.
And whether or not it's imperialism depends on whether or not you consider the Baku have a legitimate claim to the fountain of youth. That's arguable, as this very thread demonstrated time and time again. The Baku's only claim is "finders keepers", which is weak at best and doesn't negate the Son'a claim to the same resource.
EDIT: That's actually pretty important because of the idiotic "children" subplot of STI. Any claim made by the Baku to the fountain of youth planet not only applies to the Son'a, it's stronger for them since, unlike the Baku, the Son'a are actually native to that planet. And any claim of imperialism falls apart when the legitimate owners of the resource are the ones asking you for help in exploiting it.
Forcibly removing a people is a form of genocide. This is a settled question. The Cherokee were “simply moved” to another location—and it was genocide.
Also, if your position is that, by exiling them, the Bak’u effectively sentenced the Son’a to death, how would exiling the Bak’u be any different? The only reason the Son’a lasted as long as they did is through the use of advanced technology—which the Bak’u don’t have.
The Federation is a hegemonic superpower that attempts to claim a planet from its inhabitants with the explicit goal of harvesting its resources, and it doesn’t bother negotiating with those inhabitants because their lack of technological power makes them politically irrelevant. If that’s not imperialism, nothing is. And the origin of the inhabitants has no bearing on the question. Australia is a former colony. If the United States invaded it to bolster its control of the Pacific, that would be an act of imperialism.
As to the point about everyone having a right to Eden, the Bak’u are not preventing this. There is nothing in the movie that suggests the Bak’u oppose sharing or studying the metaphasic radiation. The Son’a were not exiled to protect its secret, but because they no longer wanted to be luddites. The presence of the Bak’u was only an issue because Rua’fo wanted to harm them and the Federation was too impatient to look for an alternative.
Conquering a planet by force to strip mine their natural resources violates every tenant of the Federation.
If people want to support the Boomer Republicans that exiled their children for having opinions they didn't like and refuse to give up Eden to help billions of others - cool. That's your right.
Ad I said before STI had things to say and says them possibly the worst way.
It is ethnic cleansing, and conquering. What other word do you have for imposing your will on another planet/government while removing all the local inhabitants?
This is one of those few times Im pretty ok with "Both sides are wrong". What the Fed was doing was functionally equivalent to what the US did to indigenous populations through the 1800 and early 1900's with moving populations to reservations from their existing homelands against their will. That is also generally considered genocide.
What the Ba'ku did to the So'na was also pretty despicable and amounted to slow death penalty to their children. ( I do consider forced removal of immortality a death penalty). Like exiling someone into a wasteland, you are killing them, you are just trying to absolve yourself of directly killing them.
Point of order: the Federation did not ask. They planned to secretly kidnap the population without them realizing anything was amiss before their planet was gone.
That’s kinda, like, the whole issue. There’s all this argument that the Bak’u are “hogging” immortality, but…they’re not. They’re not exploiting it, because they have neither the ability nor inclination to do so, but there is nothing to suggest they would prevent (or even be able to prevent) someone else from doing so.
Every claim you made is shown wrong in the movie.
First of all, the conditions of the Baku move is so far removed from the Trail of Tears I don't even see a comparison beyond "some form of physical movement was involved".
Second, unlike the Baku, the Federation won't just dump the exiles in outer space and forget about them. The Federation takes care of people, and will insure healthcare of the Baku after deportation. This is not explicitly stated in the movie, sure, but it's pretty much stated in the 4 decades of Federation benevolence shown on screen before the movie.
Third, the Son'a have as much, if not more, claim to the planet as the Baku, and they did negotiate with the Federation, so that problem's solved.
Fourth, the Baku are explicitly preventing this by exiling from the entire planet (somehow) anyone who uses technology more sophisticated than hitting two stones together to make fire. How a post-scarcity space-faring civilization is supposed to fell "welcome" or "accepted" in sharing a planet with such radicals is beyond me.
Well for one thing I don't use the word "imposing my will" when the owners of the planet came to me offering a resource-sharing agreement, and second I don't use the word "local inhabitants" to describe squatters who just sat down somewhere and yelled "finders keepers".