If they actually followed through on that, I couldn't think of a better way to prove how linked they are to the CCP than "yeah we'll just take our ball and go home instead of selling for like 200 billion dollars".
It definitely raises into question how much say in the sale their offshore investors have in the entire thing too. It's been brought up here a lot and taken as a given by some that the parent company essentially has no say in the US based operations. I'm incredibly skeptical of that I'll admit, so curious to see how all of that goes.
Because it’s a lie. We have gone over it multiple times in the thread. The Chinese parent company is in complete control. Nothing happens but for their actions in Beijing. There is audio recording evidence of this in terms of operations, data, and the algorithm.
Yeah I'm kinda tired of people just straight out lying and saying facts aren't facts.
The number of people who usually hate megacorp manipulative stuff going hard in the paint for TikTok is at best they make money off tiktok and don't want to loose the sweet sweet dollars.
It gets much less understandable and sympathetic from there.
"Everyone is bad faith" is pretty lazy when people have made a lot of perfectly clear arguments. The spying arguments are wildly overblown, it doesn't address the actual problems with social media, its politically destructive. That you disagree doesn't mean people are being dishonest.
I dont know how the US does it, but god damn, the anti-chinese propaganda payed off.
Yes, with a quick verbal "boom." You take a man's peko, you deny him his dab, all that is left is to rise up and tear down the walls of Jericho with a ".....not!" -TexiKen
I didn't quote anyone and call them a liar and the quote chain i responded to didn’t either so I'm not sure why you felt that was directed at you in particular.
I've seen many things elsewhere on the internet making objectively false claims about the well documented influence the Chinese government has and has had on the TikTok algorithm as well as well documented aspects of TikTok corporate culture and influence of the CCP. There have also been baldface lies about the implications of this bill (e.g. its a basic fact Tiktok would be fine if China divested) or that this is unprecedented (it's not).
While certainly there are plenty of people here making reasoned arguments in favor of Tiktok and that wasn't directed at them, the larger discussion around Tiktok has many people making arguments that if they are in good faith are intentionally disingenuous to the point of at best willful intentional ignorance.
I dont know how the US does it, but god damn, the anti-chinese propaganda payed off.
Were the Hong Kong protests and crackdown US propaganda because that's when it became obvious to me that the PRC wasn't going to liberalize without a fight and we should treat them as an antagonist as a result.
No, the Hong Kong protests werent US propaganda, the US absolutely meddled as much as they could during the protests... and it was the Trump presidency so cant really fault the US for being shit in foreign policy during those years. But if anything, it was the US that "attacked" chinese interests and not the other way aroud, unless you count Hong Kong as a US territory now.
Yes, with a quick verbal "boom." You take a man's peko, you deny him his dab, all that is left is to rise up and tear down the walls of Jericho with a ".....not!" -TexiKen
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
No, the Hong Kong protests werent US propaganda, the US absolutely meddled as much as they could during the protests... and it was the Trump presidency so cant really fault the US for being shit in foreign policy during those years. But if anything, it was the US that "attacked" chinese interests and not the other way aroud, unless you count Hong Kong as a US territory now.
The US incredibly deliberately stayed the fuck away from the protests, what are you talking about?
Fencingsax, stayed away as in, didnt put boots on the ground in Hong Kong, sure, but passed the Hong Kong Human Rights and Democracy Act. alongside targetted sanctions and big media propaganda package. You can say the US response was measured or correct or whatever, but you cant deny involvment.
Yes, with a quick verbal "boom." You take a man's peko, you deny him his dab, all that is left is to rise up and tear down the walls of Jericho with a ".....not!" -TexiKen
Fencingsax, stayed away as in, didnt put boots on the ground in Hong Kong, sure, but passed the Hong Kong Human Rights and Democracy Act. alongside targetted sanctions and big media propaganda package. You can say the US response was measured or correct or whatever, but you cant deny involvment.
You absolutely can. Because imposing sanctions for China's crackdown on democratic protests does not mean the US was involved. It just means the US, you know, looked and saw what was happening.
I have no idea why you continually go so hard in the paint for the CCP but they are an authoritarian dictatorship that brutally suppresses all dissent against the regime and is still openly committing genocide. You do not have to hand it to them.
shryke on
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ButtersA glass of some milksRegistered Userregular
The US certainly didn't get involved the same way it currently is with Taiwan whom we are literally shipping defense material too.
I dont hand it to them, but I wont pretend they are a caricature of evil, just because they are not aligned with the OTHER evil empire, the US. Everytime the topic comes up, its always framed as China being antagonistic towards the US, wich is bullshit, its rather mutual. Spying is super shitty, sure, but I dont understand why is it so much more terrible when its China doing it, instead of Israel or the US.
Actually I understand, its xenophobia and being conditioned to jerk off watching the american flag.
Organichu on
Yes, with a quick verbal "boom." You take a man's peko, you deny him his dab, all that is left is to rise up and tear down the walls of Jericho with a ".....not!" -TexiKen
I mean I can understand being annoyed at different governments. Even not liking the US.
But also going to bat for an openly genocidal, colonialist, and expansionist Chinese government seems kind of looking for allies in all the wrong places.
I mean even if you don't think they use Tik Tok to try and tilt public open you are still backing a country that is openly expanding in the South China Sea, committing genocide in Xinjiang and Tibet, and while doing that are importing large amount of Han Chinese to replace those they are displacing.
Also the violent suppression of differing thoughts and freedom of organization and press in Hong Kong.
The flat refusal to draw any distinction between the Chinese government and like any structure in China is weird. Lots of American companies work hand in glove with the US government and we don't talk about them this way.
Anyway, this bill isn't the US taking any kind of stand on the Chinese government's moral failures.
I didn't quote anyone and call them a liar and the quote chain i responded to didn’t either so I'm not sure why you felt that was directed at you in particular.
The flat refusal to draw any distinction between the Chinese government and like any structure in China is weird. Lots of American companies work hand in glove with the US government and we don't talk about them this way.
Anyway, this bill isn't the US taking any kind of stand on the Chinese government's moral failures.
I didn't quote anyone and call them a liar and the quote chain i responded to didn’t either so I'm not sure why you felt that was directed at you in particular.
I didn't say it was?
Please can you point out where the US Government owns controlling interest in private companies? Sits on boards?
The US is not a semi-planned economy. US companies working with the USG is not the same as the CCP/Chinese government either owning, controlling, or overseeing corporations with the ability to dismantle or change a corporate direction as seen fit for the protection the CCP's power.
I dont hand it to them, but I wont pretend they are a caricature of evil, just because they are not aligned with the OTHER evil empire, the US. Everytime the topic comes up, its always framed as China being antagonistic towards the US, wich is bullshit, its rather mutual. Spying is super shitty, sure, but I dont understand why is it so much more terrible when its China doing it, instead of Israel or the US.
Actually I understand, its xenophobia and being conditioned to jerk off watching the american flag.
Have you considered a career as a middle school vice principal in charge of student discipline? Your understanding of the nuance involved in a two sided conflict would fit in perfectly.
The flat refusal to draw any distinction between the Chinese government and like any structure in China is weird. Lots of American companies work hand in glove with the US government and we don't talk about them this way.
Anyway, this bill isn't the US taking any kind of stand on the Chinese government's moral failures.
I didn't quote anyone and call them a liar and the quote chain i responded to didn’t either so I'm not sure why you felt that was directed at you in particular.
I didn't say it was?
Please can you point out where the US Government owns controlling interest in private companies? Sits on boards?
The US is not a semi-planned economy. US companies working with the USG is not the same as the CCP/Chinese government either owning, controlling, or overseeing corporations with the ability to dismantle or change a corporate direction as seen fit for the protection the CCP's power.
Youre overstating the control over international operations, but youre considering the point too narrowly anyway. The US system doesn't require direct ownership to maintain its relationships with businesses. Plenty of kinds of control.
People here pretty frequently end of describing Chinese society as a monolith under the CCP and its just reactionary nationalism.
Lots of American companies work hand in glove with the US government and we don't talk about them this way.
Yeah, we never give companies shit for being warmongering parts of the US MIC …
This is a good example of an entirely different criticism. Criticism of the MIC is criticism of a warmongering structure outside the realm of civilian control.
The flat refusal to draw any distinction between the Chinese government and like any structure in China is weird. Lots of American companies work hand in glove with the US government and we don't talk about them this way.
Anyway, this bill isn't the US taking any kind of stand on the Chinese government's moral failures.
I didn't quote anyone and call them a liar and the quote chain i responded to didn’t either so I'm not sure why you felt that was directed at you in particular.
I didn't say it was?
Please can you point out where the US Government owns controlling interest in private companies? Sits on boards?
The US is not a semi-planned economy. US companies working with the USG is not the same as the CCP/Chinese government either owning, controlling, or overseeing corporations with the ability to dismantle or change a corporate direction as seen fit for the protection the CCP's power.
Youre overstating the control over international operations, but youre considering the point too narrowly anyway. The US system doesn't require direct ownership to maintain its relationships with businesses. Plenty of kinds of control.
People here pretty frequently end of describing Chinese society as a monolith under the CCP and its just reactionary nationalism.
The difference in control of major corporations between the two countries is huge.
Is China a single monolith? Of course not, its the most populated country in the world. It of course has a diversity in culture and personality. In fact with the reaction to the COVID 0 policy we saw some of the first true major protest against the CCP in a generation.
At the same time I think you are understating/estimating the amount of control China has over its population verse a country like the US. China and the CCP control the information systems and social media in a way that isn't possible in the US or most other countries on account of it be an authoritarian oligarchy. The very big thing around the whole Great Wall with the internet. Massive censorship of the major social media sites in China such as Weibo. The ability for China to remove individuals at will from corporations. Massive amounts of censorship and control over TV, streaming, movies, and books. All news is via state approved sources outside of HK which are now watched over like a hawk.
China and the CCP are not good guys. They do all they can to maintain power and control over society. And on top of that they do all they can to reinforce the superior position of Han Chinese throughout the country while enforcing the racist views on cultural built out of Stalinism. On top of the ongoing cultural and actual genocides in Tibet and Xinjiang including mass replacements with Han Chinese.
China the people? Not a monolith but also since China is not a democracy the people themselves are neither are in control or are a major voice in the decision making either.
The basis of the CCP now is a reaction to Tienanmen. That system has been exploited by Xi and his cronies to allow him to be a dictator for life if he wants. And basis of that include strict controls and oversight on the population in a very dystopian cyberpunk way. I mean the fact there are "social credit scores" should tell you how the country functions and views its population as needing to be controlled.
You can call me a reactive nationalist. But I have spent a lot of time on studying China. Its not a glorious counter weight American hegemony.
Mazzyx on
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WeaverWho are you?What do you want?Registered Userregular
The flat refusal to draw any distinction between the Chinese government and like any structure in China is weird. Lots of American companies work hand in glove with the US government and we don't talk about them this way.
Anyway, this bill isn't the US taking any kind of stand on the Chinese government's moral failures.
I didn't quote anyone and call them a liar and the quote chain i responded to didn’t either so I'm not sure why you felt that was directed at you in particular.
I didn't say it was?
Please can you point out where the US Government owns controlling interest in private companies? Sits on boards?
The US is not a semi-planned economy. US companies working with the USG is not the same as the CCP/Chinese government either owning, controlling, or overseeing corporations with the ability to dismantle or change a corporate direction as seen fit for the protection the CCP's power.
Youre overstating the control over international operations, but youre considering the point too narrowly anyway. The US system doesn't require direct ownership to maintain its relationships with businesses. Plenty of kinds of control.
People here pretty frequently end of describing Chinese society as a monolith under the CCP and its just reactionary nationalism.
The difference in control of major corporations between the two countries is huge.
Is China a single monolith? Of course not, its the most populated country in the world. It of course has a diversity in culture and personality. In fact with the reaction to the COVID 0 policy we saw some of the first true major protest against the CCP in a generation.
At the same time I think you are understating/estimating the amount of control China has over its population verse a country like the US. China and the CCP control the information systems and social media in a way that isn't possible in the US or most other countries on account of it be an authoritarian oligarchy. The very big thing around the whole Great Wall with the internet. Massive censorship of the major social media sites in China such as Weibo. The ability for China to remove individuals at will from corporations. Massive amounts of censorship and control over TV, streaming, movies, and books. All news is via state approved sources outside of HK which are now watched over like a hawk.
China and the CCP are not good guys. They do all they can to maintain power and control over society. And on top of that they do all they can to reinforce the superior position of Han Chinese throughout the country while enforcing the racist views on cultural built out of Stalinism. On top of the ongoing cultural and actual genocides in Tibet and Xinjiang including mass replacements with Han Chinese.
China the people? Not a monolith but also since China is not a democracy the people themselves are neither are in control or are a major voice in the decision making either.
The basis of the CCP now is a reaction to Tienanmen. That system has been exploited by Xi and his cronies to allow him to be a dictator for life if he wants. And basis of that include strict controls and oversight on the population in a very dystopian cyberpunk way. I mean the fact there are "social credit scores" should tell you how the country functions and views its population as needing to be controlled.
You can call be a reactive nationalist. But I have spent a lot of time on studying China. Its not a glorious counter weight American hegemony.
I'm not sure how you came away with any of what I said as a defense of the Chinese government. Responding to posts about ownership and control structures with "china isnt the glorious counterweight" isnt a debate, its an exercise in shoddy ideological flexing. People in this thread have routinely over stated the control the CCP has over international operations. The evidence for thus control as presented has been weak. People have barreled along anyway treating it like an arm of Chinese intelligence.
Yeah the people opposed to this have varying opinions about china itself. I'm not a huge fan of straight banning tiktok as there are more cunning and more transparent ways to turn the public against a social media company, but I have no love lost for China and consider their government much more unhealthy and dystopian than the US government in terms of freedom of speech and thought.
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
i'm okay with banning it but I'd be even happier if US company audits had teeth and added more to the list of people who are personally responsible to sign the financials
I mean here's some summary about TikTok and Chinese intelligence
China is demonstrating a higher degree of sophistication in its influence activity, including
experimenting with generative AI. TikTok accounts run by a PRC propaganda arm reportedly
targeted candidates from both political parties during the U.S. midterm election cycle in 2022.
"China is investing an enormous amount of money in the full spectrum of state propaganda, of which this is an important part," said Graham Brookie, senior director of the Atlantic Council's Digital Forensic Research Lab. Social media is "an important layer because it creates a façade of engagement on their chosen narratives...that are either beneficial to the [Chinese Communist Party] or harmful to its perceived competitors."
tyrannus on
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Lord_AsmodeusgoeticSobriquet:Here is your magical cryptic riddle-tumour: I AM A TIME MACHINERegistered Userregular
The flat refusal to draw any distinction between the Chinese government and like any structure in China is weird. Lots of American companies work hand in glove with the US government and we don't talk about them this way.
Anyway, this bill isn't the US taking any kind of stand on the Chinese government's moral failures.
I didn't quote anyone and call them a liar and the quote chain i responded to didn’t either so I'm not sure why you felt that was directed at you in particular.
I didn't say it was?
Please can you point out where the US Government owns controlling interest in private companies? Sits on boards?
The US is not a semi-planned economy. US companies working with the USG is not the same as the CCP/Chinese government either owning, controlling, or overseeing corporations with the ability to dismantle or change a corporate direction as seen fit for the protection the CCP's power.
Youre overstating the control over international operations, but youre considering the point too narrowly anyway. The US system doesn't require direct ownership to maintain its relationships with businesses. Plenty of kinds of control.
People here pretty frequently end of describing Chinese society as a monolith under the CCP and its just reactionary nationalism.
The difference in control of major corporations between the two countries is huge.
Is China a single monolith? Of course not, its the most populated country in the world. It of course has a diversity in culture and personality. In fact with the reaction to the COVID 0 policy we saw some of the first true major protest against the CCP in a generation.
At the same time I think you are understating/estimating the amount of control China has over its population verse a country like the US. China and the CCP control the information systems and social media in a way that isn't possible in the US or most other countries on account of it be an authoritarian oligarchy. The very big thing around the whole Great Wall with the internet. Massive censorship of the major social media sites in China such as Weibo. The ability for China to remove individuals at will from corporations. Massive amounts of censorship and control over TV, streaming, movies, and books. All news is via state approved sources outside of HK which are now watched over like a hawk.
China and the CCP are not good guys. They do all they can to maintain power and control over society. And on top of that they do all they can to reinforce the superior position of Han Chinese throughout the country while enforcing the racist views on cultural built out of Stalinism. On top of the ongoing cultural and actual genocides in Tibet and Xinjiang including mass replacements with Han Chinese.
China the people? Not a monolith but also since China is not a democracy the people themselves are neither are in control or are a major voice in the decision making either.
The basis of the CCP now is a reaction to Tienanmen. That system has been exploited by Xi and his cronies to allow him to be a dictator for life if he wants. And basis of that include strict controls and oversight on the population in a very dystopian cyberpunk way. I mean the fact there are "social credit scores" should tell you how the country functions and views its population as needing to be controlled.
You can call be a reactive nationalist. But I have spent a lot of time on studying China. Its not a glorious counter weight American hegemony.
I'm not sure how you came away with any of what I said as a defense of the Chinese government. Responding to posts about ownership and control structures with "china isnt the glorious counterweight" isnt a debate, its an exercise in shoddy ideological flexing. People in this thread have routinely over stated the control the CCP has over international operations. The evidence for thus control as presented has been weak. People have barreled along anyway treating it like an arm of Chinese intelligence.
Well if anyone knows a thing or two about shoddy ideological flexing.
Anyway, your arguments often come off as a defense of the Chinese government because you keep saying things that give the Chinese government the benefit of the doubt in a way you never seem to for any Western country, and especially not the US. Like, I don't know how else to simplify it.
I'd also like you to clarify how you think the argument for control thus far presented has been weak. There seems to have been a fair bit of evidence to suggest that directly and indirectly. If anyone is barreling along, it's you barreling forward with your handwaving away of any argument for why the Chinese government is perceived as hostile and a threat, and any evidence to suggest the depth of their hand in how TikTok is run and the data it collects.
Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if Labor had not first existed. Labor is superior to capital, and deserves much the higher consideration. - Lincoln
The flat refusal to draw any distinction between the Chinese government and like any structure in China is weird. Lots of American companies work hand in glove with the US government and we don't talk about them this way.
Anyway, this bill isn't the US taking any kind of stand on the Chinese government's moral failures.
I didn't quote anyone and call them a liar and the quote chain i responded to didn’t either so I'm not sure why you felt that was directed at you in particular.
I didn't say it was?
Please can you point out where the US Government owns controlling interest in private companies? Sits on boards?
The US is not a semi-planned economy. US companies working with the USG is not the same as the CCP/Chinese government either owning, controlling, or overseeing corporations with the ability to dismantle or change a corporate direction as seen fit for the protection the CCP's power.
Youre overstating the control over international operations, but youre considering the point too narrowly anyway. The US system doesn't require direct ownership to maintain its relationships with businesses. Plenty of kinds of control.
People here pretty frequently end of describing Chinese society as a monolith under the CCP and its just reactionary nationalism.
The difference in control of major corporations between the two countries is huge.
Is China a single monolith? Of course not, its the most populated country in the world. It of course has a diversity in culture and personality. In fact with the reaction to the COVID 0 policy we saw some of the first true major protest against the CCP in a generation.
At the same time I think you are understating/estimating the amount of control China has over its population verse a country like the US. China and the CCP control the information systems and social media in a way that isn't possible in the US or most other countries on account of it be an authoritarian oligarchy. The very big thing around the whole Great Wall with the internet. Massive censorship of the major social media sites in China such as Weibo. The ability for China to remove individuals at will from corporations. Massive amounts of censorship and control over TV, streaming, movies, and books. All news is via state approved sources outside of HK which are now watched over like a hawk.
China and the CCP are not good guys. They do all they can to maintain power and control over society. And on top of that they do all they can to reinforce the superior position of Han Chinese throughout the country while enforcing the racist views on cultural built out of Stalinism. On top of the ongoing cultural and actual genocides in Tibet and Xinjiang including mass replacements with Han Chinese.
China the people? Not a monolith but also since China is not a democracy the people themselves are neither are in control or are a major voice in the decision making either.
The basis of the CCP now is a reaction to Tienanmen. That system has been exploited by Xi and his cronies to allow him to be a dictator for life if he wants. And basis of that include strict controls and oversight on the population in a very dystopian cyberpunk way. I mean the fact there are "social credit scores" should tell you how the country functions and views its population as needing to be controlled.
You can call be a reactive nationalist. But I have spent a lot of time on studying China. Its not a glorious counter weight American hegemony.
I'm not sure how you came away with any of what I said as a defense of the Chinese government. Responding to posts about ownership and control structures with "china isnt the glorious counterweight" isnt a debate, its an exercise in shoddy ideological flexing. People in this thread have routinely over stated the control the CCP has over international operations. The evidence for thus control as presented has been weak. People have barreled along anyway treating it like an arm of Chinese intelligence.
You were given examples of how China exerts direct control over corporations within it's reach well beyond what the US does. You ignored them and responded with:
People here pretty frequently end of describing Chinese society as a monolith under the CCP and its just reactionary nationalism
So why are you confused that you got a post directly addressing your claims of people viewing chinese society as a monolith and how people's distrust of the chinese government is actually based in their repressive authoritarian actions? You are getting nothing but specific responses to your own complaints.
The flat refusal to draw any distinction between the Chinese government and like any structure in China is weird. Lots of American companies work hand in glove with the US government and we don't talk about them this way.
Anyway, this bill isn't the US taking any kind of stand on the Chinese government's moral failures.
I didn't quote anyone and call them a liar and the quote chain i responded to didn’t either so I'm not sure why you felt that was directed at you in particular.
I didn't say it was?
Please can you point out where the US Government owns controlling interest in private companies? Sits on boards?
The US is not a semi-planned economy. US companies working with the USG is not the same as the CCP/Chinese government either owning, controlling, or overseeing corporations with the ability to dismantle or change a corporate direction as seen fit for the protection the CCP's power.
Youre overstating the control over international operations, but youre considering the point too narrowly anyway. The US system doesn't require direct ownership to maintain its relationships with businesses. Plenty of kinds of control.
People here pretty frequently end of describing Chinese society as a monolith under the CCP and its just reactionary nationalism.
The difference in control of major corporations between the two countries is huge.
Is China a single monolith? Of course not, its the most populated country in the world. It of course has a diversity in culture and personality. In fact with the reaction to the COVID 0 policy we saw some of the first true major protest against the CCP in a generation.
At the same time I think you are understating/estimating the amount of control China has over its population verse a country like the US. China and the CCP control the information systems and social media in a way that isn't possible in the US or most other countries on account of it be an authoritarian oligarchy. The very big thing around the whole Great Wall with the internet. Massive censorship of the major social media sites in China such as Weibo. The ability for China to remove individuals at will from corporations. Massive amounts of censorship and control over TV, streaming, movies, and books. All news is via state approved sources outside of HK which are now watched over like a hawk.
China and the CCP are not good guys. They do all they can to maintain power and control over society. And on top of that they do all they can to reinforce the superior position of Han Chinese throughout the country while enforcing the racist views on cultural built out of Stalinism. On top of the ongoing cultural and actual genocides in Tibet and Xinjiang including mass replacements with Han Chinese.
China the people? Not a monolith but also since China is not a democracy the people themselves are neither are in control or are a major voice in the decision making either.
The basis of the CCP now is a reaction to Tienanmen. That system has been exploited by Xi and his cronies to allow him to be a dictator for life if he wants. And basis of that include strict controls and oversight on the population in a very dystopian cyberpunk way. I mean the fact there are "social credit scores" should tell you how the country functions and views its population as needing to be controlled.
You can call be a reactive nationalist. But I have spent a lot of time on studying China. Its not a glorious counter weight American hegemony.
I'm not sure how you came away with any of what I said as a defense of the Chinese government. Responding to posts about ownership and control structures with "china isnt the glorious counterweight" isnt a debate, its an exercise in shoddy ideological flexing. People in this thread have routinely over stated the control the CCP has over international operations. The evidence for thus control as presented has been weak. People have barreled along anyway treating it like an arm of Chinese intelligence.
Well if anyone knows a thing or two about shoddy ideological flexing.
Anyway, your arguments often come off as a defense of the Chinese government because you keep saying things that give the Chinese government the benefit of the doubt in a way you never seem to for any Western country, and especially not the US. Like, I don't know how else to simplify it.
I'd also like you to clarify how you think the argument for control thus far presented has been weak. There seems to have been a fair bit of evidence to suggest that directly and indirectly. If anyone is barreling along, it's you barreling forward with your handwaving away of any argument for why the Chinese government is perceived as hostile and a threat, and any evidence to suggest the depth of their hand in how TikTok is run and the data it collects.
Most of the direct evidence of control is over how the company operates domestically, which is notably different than its international operation both in structure and results. People have been sloppy about this distinction. This is not about giving anyone the benefit of the doubt, its about recognizing what claims the evidence will support and which it will not.
Also "anti-China rhetoric"? China is literally providing aid and assistance to Russia to invade Ukraine right now. Good grief, they may not be an obvious foe due to trade but they're definitely not a friend.
China's information and personal control operations also extend well beyond their borders. That's why they are doing things like operating secret arms of their government within other countries to blackmail and intimidate ex-pats or their descendants overseas. They aren't dumb. They know how to play these games too.
I gotta say, when people repeatedly clarify their criticism of China is specific to their current authoritarian, pro-genocide government and are countered with "you're being xenophobic" it sounds like the objecting person is implying they think authoritarianism and pro-genocide are inherent aspects of the Chinese people.
I think electricitylikes me hit the nail on the head with the "definitely not a friend" comment. Its a US centric, from the position of what benefits the US and some of us, probably a tiny minority are not US citizens and have in fact historically suffered from the US imperialism than at the hands of China. So the framing of China as terrible for spying on US citizens, while the US spies on everyone else rings hollow to me, but I see how it might feel very personal for someone who is used to being on the other end of business.
Yes, with a quick verbal "boom." You take a man's peko, you deny him his dab, all that is left is to rise up and tear down the walls of Jericho with a ".....not!" -TexiKen
I think electricitylikes me hit the nail on the head with the "definitely not a friend" comment. Its a US centric, from the position of what benefits the US and some of us, probably a tiny minority are not US citizens and have in fact historically suffered from the US imperialism than at the hands of China. So the framing of China as terrible for spying on US citizens, while the US spies on everyone else rings hollow to me, but I see how it might feel very personal for someone who is used to being on the other end of business.
Would much rather see the US clean its own house than dive into this new cold war that is only going to exacerbate so many problems here.
I think electricitylikes me hit the nail on the head with the "definitely not a friend" comment. Its a US centric, from the position of what benefits the US and some of us, probably a tiny minority are not US citizens and have in fact historically suffered from the US imperialism than at the hands of China. So the framing of China as terrible for spying on US citizens, while the US spies on everyone else rings hollow to me, but I see how it might feel very personal for someone who is used to being on the other end of business.
Would much rather see the US clean its own house than dive into this new cold war that is only going to exacerbate so many problems here.
When someone's coming in and shitting on the carpet, it makes sense to lock the front door even if you're a messy fucker too.
I think electricitylikes me hit the nail on the head with the "definitely not a friend" comment. Its a US centric, from the position of what benefits the US and some of us, probably a tiny minority are not US citizens and have in fact historically suffered from the US imperialism than at the hands of China. So the framing of China as terrible for spying on US citizens, while the US spies on everyone else rings hollow to me, but I see how it might feel very personal for someone who is used to being on the other end of business.
Would much rather see the US clean its own house than dive into this new cold war that is only going to exacerbate so many problems here.
When someone's coming in and shitting on the carpet, it makes sense to lock the front door even if you're a messy fucker too.
This targeted bill means we're less likely to get real reform over how social media companies operate as an industry.
+7
Options
Kane Red RobeMaster of MagicArcanusRegistered Userregular
I think electricitylikes me hit the nail on the head with the "definitely not a friend" comment. Its a US centric, from the position of what benefits the US and some of us, probably a tiny minority are not US citizens and have in fact historically suffered from the US imperialism than at the hands of China. So the framing of China as terrible for spying on US citizens, while the US spies on everyone else rings hollow to me, but I see how it might feel very personal for someone who is used to being on the other end of business.
Given that the options are either:
1. Continued American hegemony, with all the problems we are familiar with.
Or
2. Great power struggle to determine who the next hegemon is with likely attendant world war.
I'm pretty comfortable saying we should be rooting for option 1.
0
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minor incidentexpert in a dying fieldnjRegistered Userregular
I think electricitylikes me hit the nail on the head with the "definitely not a friend" comment. Its a US centric, from the position of what benefits the US and some of us, probably a tiny minority are not US citizens and have in fact historically suffered from the US imperialism than at the hands of China. So the framing of China as terrible for spying on US citizens, while the US spies on everyone else rings hollow to me, but I see how it might feel very personal for someone who is used to being on the other end of business.
Would much rather see the US clean its own house than dive into this new cold war that is only going to exacerbate so many problems here.
When someone's coming in and shitting on the carpet, it makes sense to lock the front door even if you're a messy fucker too.
This targeted bill means we're less likely to get real reform over how social media companies operate as an industry.
This is basically my issue with it. Our government has a real issue with brushing our hands off, giving ourselves a pat on the back and saying "mission accomplished" when we've done slightly less than the bare minimum to start any kind of real reform. Seems to me like this is more likely to just give lawmakers cover to not worry themselves over silly little social media issues again for a few years since the problem's been... solved.
Ah, it stinks, it sucks, it's anthropologically unjust
The whole "Fix all of our internal problems before worrying about external problems" thing is always so weird to me.
That's not how our government works! Everyone here knows that's not how our government works! A significant portion of congress not only doesn't want to fix all of our internal problems, they are actively doing everything they can to make them worse.
It's not an either/or proposition. We don't get to choose to solve all societal ills or crack down on a hostile foreign power spying on us. We have a Congress that agrees on basically nothing ever, and they finally agreed on fixing a few things related to foreign policy. There was no option on the table this week to fix our education system! I would fucking love to fix our education system, but the whole "we should do absolutely nothing until we fix the biggest, much more divisive, issues that plague us" is just not it. It's not how any Democracy I'm aware of has ever worked! You fix what you can, and what there is consensus to fix. You try really hard to restructure the composition of the government to solve the issues you want solved where there is not consensus, but we can't snap recall all of Congress today and the results wouldn't get us to perfect societal Utopia or anything slightly resembling that if we could.
Fiatil on
+15
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minor incidentexpert in a dying fieldnjRegistered Userregular
The whole "Fix all of our internal problems before worrying about external problems" thing is always so weird to me.
That's not how our government works! Everyone here knows that's not how our government works! A significant portion of congress not only doesn't want to fix all of our internal problems, they are actively doing everything they can to make them worse.
It's not an either/or proposition. We don't get to choose to solve all societal ills or crack down on a hostile foreign power spying on us. We have a Congress that agrees on basically nothing ever, and they finally agreed on fixing a few things related to foreign policy. There was no option on the table this week to fix our education system! I would fucking love to fix our education system, but the whole "we should do absolutely nothing until we fix the biggest, much more divisive, issues that plague us" is just not it. It's not how any Democracy I'm aware of has ever worked! You fix what you can, and what there is consensus to fix. You try really hard to restructure the composition of the government to fix the other issues to solve the issues you want solved where there is not consensus, but we can't snap recall all of Congress today and the results wouldn't get us to perfect societal Utopia or anything slightly resembling that if we could.
We're not even talking about greater societal issues as a whole. We're mostly talking about just... social media's problems with algorithm manipulation, data security, privacy, etc, which all need to be solved, and that this tiktok bill doesn't begin to address in a meaningful way.
Edit: to be clear, these are things tiktok is absolutely guilty of too. But so are Meta, and Twitter, and Netflix, and tons of other companies. And nailing Tiktok to the wall without addressing any of the actual ways this stuff happens is basically treating one small symptom and totally ignoring the cause.
minor incident on
Ah, it stinks, it sucks, it's anthropologically unjust
I mean here's some summary about TikTok and Chinese intelligence
China is demonstrating a higher degree of sophistication in its influence activity, including
experimenting with generative AI. TikTok accounts run by a PRC propaganda arm reportedly
targeted candidates from both political parties during the U.S. midterm election cycle in 2022.
"China is investing an enormous amount of money in the full spectrum of state propaganda, of which this is an important part," said Graham Brookie, senior director of the Atlantic Council's Digital Forensic Research Lab. Social media is "an important layer because it creates a façade of engagement on their chosen narratives...that are either beneficial to the [Chinese Communist Party] or harmful to its perceived competitors."
This is a good example of why it doesn't matter if TikTok is sold.
They're running and creating accounts to spread their propaganda which they can do with any social media site whether they control it or not.
Russia didn't need to own Facebook or Twitter to use them to influence elections.
Posts
Yeah I'm kinda tired of people just straight out lying and saying facts aren't facts.
The number of people who usually hate megacorp manipulative stuff going hard in the paint for TikTok is at best they make money off tiktok and don't want to loose the sweet sweet dollars.
It gets much less understandable and sympathetic from there.
I've seen many things elsewhere on the internet making objectively false claims about the well documented influence the Chinese government has and has had on the TikTok algorithm as well as well documented aspects of TikTok corporate culture and influence of the CCP. There have also been baldface lies about the implications of this bill (e.g. its a basic fact Tiktok would be fine if China divested) or that this is unprecedented (it's not).
While certainly there are plenty of people here making reasoned arguments in favor of Tiktok and that wasn't directed at them, the larger discussion around Tiktok has many people making arguments that if they are in good faith are intentionally disingenuous to the point of at best willful intentional ignorance.
Were the Hong Kong protests and crackdown US propaganda because that's when it became obvious to me that the PRC wasn't going to liberalize without a fight and we should treat them as an antagonist as a result.
The US incredibly deliberately stayed the fuck away from the protests, what are you talking about?
You absolutely can. Because imposing sanctions for China's crackdown on democratic protests does not mean the US was involved. It just means the US, you know, looked and saw what was happening.
I have no idea why you continually go so hard in the paint for the CCP but they are an authoritarian dictatorship that brutally suppresses all dissent against the regime and is still openly committing genocide. You do not have to hand it to them.
Actually I understand, its xenophobia and being conditioned to jerk off watching the american flag.
But also going to bat for an openly genocidal, colonialist, and expansionist Chinese government seems kind of looking for allies in all the wrong places.
I mean even if you don't think they use Tik Tok to try and tilt public open you are still backing a country that is openly expanding in the South China Sea, committing genocide in Xinjiang and Tibet, and while doing that are importing large amount of Han Chinese to replace those they are displacing.
Also the violent suppression of differing thoughts and freedom of organization and press in Hong Kong.
Anyway, this bill isn't the US taking any kind of stand on the Chinese government's moral failures.
I didn't say it was?
Please can you point out where the US Government owns controlling interest in private companies? Sits on boards?
The US is not a semi-planned economy. US companies working with the USG is not the same as the CCP/Chinese government either owning, controlling, or overseeing corporations with the ability to dismantle or change a corporate direction as seen fit for the protection the CCP's power.
Have you considered a career as a middle school vice principal in charge of student discipline? Your understanding of the nuance involved in a two sided conflict would fit in perfectly.
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Wilds of Aladrion: [https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/comment/43159014/#Comment_43159014]Ellandryn[/url]
Youre overstating the control over international operations, but youre considering the point too narrowly anyway. The US system doesn't require direct ownership to maintain its relationships with businesses. Plenty of kinds of control.
People here pretty frequently end of describing Chinese society as a monolith under the CCP and its just reactionary nationalism.
This is a good example of an entirely different criticism. Criticism of the MIC is criticism of a warmongering structure outside the realm of civilian control.
The difference in control of major corporations between the two countries is huge.
Is China a single monolith? Of course not, its the most populated country in the world. It of course has a diversity in culture and personality. In fact with the reaction to the COVID 0 policy we saw some of the first true major protest against the CCP in a generation.
At the same time I think you are understating/estimating the amount of control China has over its population verse a country like the US. China and the CCP control the information systems and social media in a way that isn't possible in the US or most other countries on account of it be an authoritarian oligarchy. The very big thing around the whole Great Wall with the internet. Massive censorship of the major social media sites in China such as Weibo. The ability for China to remove individuals at will from corporations. Massive amounts of censorship and control over TV, streaming, movies, and books. All news is via state approved sources outside of HK which are now watched over like a hawk.
China and the CCP are not good guys. They do all they can to maintain power and control over society. And on top of that they do all they can to reinforce the superior position of Han Chinese throughout the country while enforcing the racist views on cultural built out of Stalinism. On top of the ongoing cultural and actual genocides in Tibet and Xinjiang including mass replacements with Han Chinese.
China the people? Not a monolith but also since China is not a democracy the people themselves are neither are in control or are a major voice in the decision making either.
The basis of the CCP now is a reaction to Tienanmen. That system has been exploited by Xi and his cronies to allow him to be a dictator for life if he wants. And basis of that include strict controls and oversight on the population in a very dystopian cyberpunk way. I mean the fact there are "social credit scores" should tell you how the country functions and views its population as needing to be controlled.
You can call me a reactive nationalist. But I have spent a lot of time on studying China. Its not a glorious counter weight American hegemony.
I'm not sure how you came away with any of what I said as a defense of the Chinese government. Responding to posts about ownership and control structures with "china isnt the glorious counterweight" isnt a debate, its an exercise in shoddy ideological flexing. People in this thread have routinely over stated the control the CCP has over international operations. The evidence for thus control as presented has been weak. People have barreled along anyway treating it like an arm of Chinese intelligence.
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
I mean here's some summary about TikTok and Chinese intelligence
and here's another fun article
https://www.npr.org/2023/08/29/1196117574/meta-says-chinese-russian-influence-operations-are-among-the-biggest-its-taken-d
Well if anyone knows a thing or two about shoddy ideological flexing.
Anyway, your arguments often come off as a defense of the Chinese government because you keep saying things that give the Chinese government the benefit of the doubt in a way you never seem to for any Western country, and especially not the US. Like, I don't know how else to simplify it.
I'd also like you to clarify how you think the argument for control thus far presented has been weak. There seems to have been a fair bit of evidence to suggest that directly and indirectly. If anyone is barreling along, it's you barreling forward with your handwaving away of any argument for why the Chinese government is perceived as hostile and a threat, and any evidence to suggest the depth of their hand in how TikTok is run and the data it collects.
You were given examples of how China exerts direct control over corporations within it's reach well beyond what the US does. You ignored them and responded with: So why are you confused that you got a post directly addressing your claims of people viewing chinese society as a monolith and how people's distrust of the chinese government is actually based in their repressive authoritarian actions? You are getting nothing but specific responses to your own complaints.
Most of the direct evidence of control is over how the company operates domestically, which is notably different than its international operation both in structure and results. People have been sloppy about this distinction. This is not about giving anyone the benefit of the doubt, its about recognizing what claims the evidence will support and which it will not.
Would much rather see the US clean its own house than dive into this new cold war that is only going to exacerbate so many problems here.
When someone's coming in and shitting on the carpet, it makes sense to lock the front door even if you're a messy fucker too.
This targeted bill means we're less likely to get real reform over how social media companies operate as an industry.
Given that the options are either:
1. Continued American hegemony, with all the problems we are familiar with.
Or
2. Great power struggle to determine who the next hegemon is with likely attendant world war.
I'm pretty comfortable saying we should be rooting for option 1.
This is basically my issue with it. Our government has a real issue with brushing our hands off, giving ourselves a pat on the back and saying "mission accomplished" when we've done slightly less than the bare minimum to start any kind of real reform. Seems to me like this is more likely to just give lawmakers cover to not worry themselves over silly little social media issues again for a few years since the problem's been... solved.
That's not how our government works! Everyone here knows that's not how our government works! A significant portion of congress not only doesn't want to fix all of our internal problems, they are actively doing everything they can to make them worse.
It's not an either/or proposition. We don't get to choose to solve all societal ills or crack down on a hostile foreign power spying on us. We have a Congress that agrees on basically nothing ever, and they finally agreed on fixing a few things related to foreign policy. There was no option on the table this week to fix our education system! I would fucking love to fix our education system, but the whole "we should do absolutely nothing until we fix the biggest, much more divisive, issues that plague us" is just not it. It's not how any Democracy I'm aware of has ever worked! You fix what you can, and what there is consensus to fix. You try really hard to restructure the composition of the government to solve the issues you want solved where there is not consensus, but we can't snap recall all of Congress today and the results wouldn't get us to perfect societal Utopia or anything slightly resembling that if we could.
We're not even talking about greater societal issues as a whole. We're mostly talking about just... social media's problems with algorithm manipulation, data security, privacy, etc, which all need to be solved, and that this tiktok bill doesn't begin to address in a meaningful way.
Edit: to be clear, these are things tiktok is absolutely guilty of too. But so are Meta, and Twitter, and Netflix, and tons of other companies. And nailing Tiktok to the wall without addressing any of the actual ways this stuff happens is basically treating one small symptom and totally ignoring the cause.
This is a good example of why it doesn't matter if TikTok is sold.
They're running and creating accounts to spread their propaganda which they can do with any social media site whether they control it or not.
Russia didn't need to own Facebook or Twitter to use them to influence elections.
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