although I did like two non-stereotypical gay characters in The Longest Journey
Three, technically. There's a cop guarding that one crash site and you can make April try to flirt with him and he just replies "Sorry, ma'am. I'm gay."
Who's the third then? Besides April's landlady and the cop? I don't remember ever meeting the landlady's partner.
If the rest of the writing in the game deems it appropriate, sure.
But I emphasizing a protagonists sexual orientation one way or another would just depreciate the value of the game.
EDIT: The only exception I would make to this would be games like kotor. With all the decisions you could make throughout the game, I was pretty surprised all the relationships were kept heterosexual.
Supposedly Bioware tried to slip a lesbian romance into the game, but were curbed by Lucasarts. There's no reference to homosexuality anywhere in Star Wars.
Star Trek did the same thing. The Next Generation writers tried several times to introduce gay characters and stories into the series, and got smacked back down by the producers who were either homophobic or terrified it would affect ad sales or something. They managed to slip that one 'hermaphrodite' story in, but that was about it.
I am hoping for some good gay characters in Mass Effect.
MuddBudd on
There's no plan, there's no race to be run
The harder the rain, honey, the sweeter the sun.
This is what I think the question ought to be, just because.
And also because I think saying "video games should have gay characters" sounds like asking for a heavy-handed gay character to get forced in there just for the sake of, as Fencingsax put it earlier, "look at this gay character! We are so progressive because we have this gay character!"
I think the story about shooting down Bioware's plan for a gay character helps puts the should in a different light.
although I did like two non-stereotypical gay characters in The Longest Journey
Three, technically. There's a cop guarding that one crash site and you can make April try to flirt with him and he just replies "Sorry, ma'am. I'm gay."
Who's the third then? Besides April's landlady and the cop? I don't remember ever meeting the landlady's partner.
Yeah, you meet her. I'm sure I remember talking to her at the beginning of the game, and she's in the scene if you don't go in to the cafe at the end of chapter one.
RPG's for the win. The gay population runs in at about 10%, so lead characters that are gay are going to be few and far between just because gamemakers are going to want to target the largest section of the gaming population.
RpG's though are a different breed. In customizing your character, which is becoming more and more indepth as time goes on, should certainly have that as an option. Someone already mentioned Fable, and I thought that was a pretty progressive approach, where you could have whatever kind of relationhip you wanted, but there were fewer gay NPC's to choose from, wheras there were a lot more options if you were straight. I think this is reflective of the real world, where your selection gets trimmed a bit due to one's sexuality.
I think it's great to have as an option, a real, fleshed out option like any other. Male and female. Personally I'd like to have more customization for leads in all games. It's sad you can't play a girl in GTA for example, even though SA was basically a big game of 'dress-up' with guns and cars. I think male centric imagery would help even the score a bit (well oiled whatevers), and open up play experiences to male and female sexualities, whatever bodies those happen to be in.
Sarcastro on
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Irond WillWARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!!Cambridge. MAModeratormod
If the rest of the writing in the game deems it appropriate, sure.
But I emphasizing a protagonists sexual orientation one way or another would just depreciate the value of the game.
EDIT: The only exception I would make to this would be games like kotor. With all the decisions you could make throughout the game, I was pretty surprised all the relationships were kept heterosexual.
Supposedly Bioware tried to slip a lesbian romance into the game, but were curbed by Lucasarts. There's no reference to homosexuality anywhere in Star Wars.
I think so-mostly because it's a fact of life, partially for the sake of realism.
Are you saying that we should somehow be able to recognize them?
You apparently think that all gays and bisexuals are eminently noticeable by their appearance.
I want to go on a rant here but I think that I should let you clear up your thesis.
Did I say that? Did I say that it's easy to pick homosexuals or bisexuals in a crowd? I didn't. Don't put words in my mouth.
It's something a friend of mine asked me and a few of my gamer buddies-I thought it would be interesting discussion fodder. Had I known that somebody would try to blindside me, I might've reonsidered.
Final_Assassin_42 on
In memoriam; Douglas Adams-1952-2001.
I frag, therefore I am.
Just once, I'd like to be able to go on XBL, and NOT be called a mother-fucker.
If the rest of the writing in the game deems it appropriate, sure.
But I emphasizing a protagonists sexual orientation one way or another would just depreciate the value of the game.
EDIT: The only exception I would make to this would be games like kotor. With all the decisions you could make throughout the game, I was pretty surprised all the relationships were kept heterosexual.
Supposedly Bioware tried to slip a lesbian romance into the game, but were curbed by Lucasarts. There's no reference to homosexuality anywhere in Star Wars.
Except that Luke is a total homo.
Watch the Robot Chicken Star Wars special to see the truth.
He isn't a homosexual, he's a redneck. He slept with Leia.
And there is a small bit of lesbian love in KOTOR.
if your character's female, Juhani may still fall in love with you.
Final_Assassin_42 on
In memoriam; Douglas Adams-1952-2001.
I frag, therefore I am.
Just once, I'd like to be able to go on XBL, and NOT be called a mother-fucker.
but yeah, no one would want to play as a gay dude. video games are marketed to youngish men, and who do they want to bang in the virtual world, busty prostitutes or toned twinks?
You're exaggerating for effect, right? You know the gays like playing games too, right?
I'm absolutely certain that Eddy knows that the gays like video games too.
While the NWN 1&2 are mediocre games, it's great fun to get a genderless mod and gay it up with Casavir. Isn't that half the fun of role playing games anyway? Taking on another personality or even gender and orientation?
Sexuality is something that's rarely if ever particuarly important to videogames aside from a few perfunctory girlfriend imperiled sub plots tossed in along the way.
So, I mean....I can understand the question, but it's almost a non issue. I'm pretty sure there's a good number of videogame protagonists you could just as easily pretend are gay, if only for the utter lack of proof to the contrary.
I stoled the image from gaygamer. I giggle every time I see it. Not so much because I think it'd be funny if badass Master Chief was a woman, but the idea of all the frat-boy types who obsess over Halo screaming at the big reveal.
God I would die laughing.
MuddBudd on
There's no plan, there's no race to be run
The harder the rain, honey, the sweeter the sun.
If the rest of the writing in the game deems it appropriate, sure.
But I emphasizing a protagonists sexual orientation one way or another would just depreciate the value of the game.
EDIT: The only exception I would make to this would be games like kotor. With all the decisions you could make throughout the game, I was pretty surprised all the relationships were kept heterosexual.
Supposedly Bioware tried to slip a lesbian romance into the game, but were curbed by Lucasarts. There's no reference to homosexuality anywhere in Star Wars.
Except that Luke is a total homo.
With a wife and a kid?
Furu on
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Irond WillWARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!!Cambridge. MAModeratormod
Supposedly Bioware tried to slip a lesbian romance into the game, but were curbed by Lucasarts. There's no reference to homosexuality anywhere in Star Wars.
Supposedly Bioware tried to slip a lesbian romance into the game, but were curbed by Lucasarts. There's no reference to homosexuality anywhere in Star Wars.
Except that Luke is a total homo.
With a wife and a kid?
I don't remember that part of the movie.
The books that take place after the movie are official canon.
MuddBudd on
There's no plan, there's no race to be run
The harder the rain, honey, the sweeter the sun.
I'm replaying Fallout 1 at the moment, and just started noticing the character models. Ok, you're too far zoomed out to notice much more than skin colour, but you've got either white or black (or green, teehee!), and there's no black women. None. And only one black male character model (there may be a second one in the Brotherhood, but I haven't gotten that far). The rest are all honkies (with a wide variety of appearances), and the males outnumber the women even in NPCs. I'm like okay, does having no melanin or tits render you more resistant to radiation? Shouldn't there be some kind of handmaid's tale thing going on if women are so rare? Oh, and the only fat dude was a baddie. Super progressive! I recall it improving a little in the sequels, but not by much.
The mayor of the most prosperous city in your travels that you ever met was a black woman. And I can kind of seeing there being a white-male increase due to the government handpicking one thousand people for each vault, and the Enclave are a bunch of assholes, so it's not a HUGE stretch of the imagination.
It seems that every other JRPG has a main character who's some young kid possessing of some ancient power. Nobody will trust him because he's just a kid, and this always becomes a frequent plot element. "Ha ha ha!," the big bad guy says, "The great hero is a little boy? This will be easy!" Then our hero the little boy jumps and stabs him through the face with the Master Sword.
I'd love to a see a game where the main character is gay. Not necessarily flamboyantly, stereotypically gay. Just... he prefers other boys. And he doesn't make a big deal out of it. But everybody else does. "Ha ha ha!" the big bad guy says, "The great hero likes other boys? This will be easy!" Then our hero the fag jumps up and stabs him through the face with the Master Sword.
Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
It seems that every other JRPG has a main character who's some young kid possessing of some ancient power. Nobody will trust him because he's just a kid, and this always becomes a frequent plot element. "Ha ha ha!," the big bad guy says, "The great hero is a little boy? This will be easy!" Then our hero the little boy jumps and stabs him through the face with the Master Sword.
I'd love to a see a game where the main character is gay. Not necessarily flamboyantly, stereotypically gay. Just... he prefers other boys. And he doesn't make a big deal out of it. But everybody else does. "Ha ha ha!" the big bad guy says, "The great hero likes other boys? This will be easy!" Then our hero the fag jumps up and stabs him through the face with the Master Sword.
I think you actually just invented the only way imaginable to destroy even more goodwill among the 13-15 year old post Wind Waker crowd.
It seems that every other JRPG has a main character who's some young kid possessing of some ancient power. Nobody will trust him because he's just a kid, and this always becomes a frequent plot element. "Ha ha ha!," the big bad guy says, "The great hero is a little boy? This will be easy!" Then our hero the little boy jumps and stabs him through the face with the Master Sword.
I'd love to a see a game where the main character is gay. Not necessarily flamboyantly, stereotypically gay. Just... he prefers other boys. And he doesn't make a big deal out of it. But everybody else does. "Ha ha ha!" the big bad guy says, "The great hero likes other boys? This will be easy!" Then our hero the fag jumps up and stabs him through the face with the Master Sword.
I think you actually just invented the only way imaginable to destroy even more goodwill among the 13-15 year old post Wind Waker crowd.
Yeah, that's the problem. Make a main character gay (without him being comic relief, a'la the shopkeepers in Shadow Hearts Covenant) and you've basically fucked your chances of snagging the homophobe market, which I think is a much larger market than the gay market, at least in the US.
Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
It seems that every other JRPG has a main character who's some young kid possessing of some ancient power. Nobody will trust him because he's just a kid, and this always becomes a frequent plot element. "Ha ha ha!," the big bad guy says, "The great hero is a little boy? This will be easy!" Then our hero the little boy jumps and stabs him through the face with the Master Sword.
I'd love to a see a game where the main character is gay. Not necessarily flamboyantly, stereotypically gay. Just... he prefers other boys. And he doesn't make a big deal out of it. But everybody else does. "Ha ha ha!" the big bad guy says, "The great hero likes other boys? This will be easy!" Then our hero the fag jumps up and stabs him through the face with the Master Sword.
Heterosexual male nerds are pretty much all emotionally stunted teenage guys with overly romanticized visions of lesbianism.
So probably not your target game-playing audience.
That's not the question to ask, Gnasty, considering how many of the games are made in Asian countries which have mostly been exposed to the US and Europe.
It's more a matter of how many of those have been something other than a stereotype. Voodoo and gangsters and so forth.
I think the other problem here is that most videogame storytelling, aside from a few RPGs, is much too blunt and clumsy to elegantly incorporate aspects of someone's sexuality particuarly well.
Imagine if the people responsible for Gears of War had decided to make its protagonist openly gay. Imagine, for a brief and hideous moment, what that might have been like.
It seems that every other JRPG has a main character who's some young kid possessing of some ancient power. Nobody will trust him because he's just a kid, and this always becomes a frequent plot element. "Ha ha ha!," the big bad guy says, "The great hero is a little boy? This will be easy!" Then our hero the little boy jumps and stabs him through the face with the Master Sword.
I'd love to a see a game where the main character is gay. Not necessarily flamboyantly, stereotypically gay. Just... he prefers other boys. And he doesn't make a big deal out of it. But everybody else does. "Ha ha ha!" the big bad guy says, "The great hero likes other boys? This will be easy!" Then our hero the fag jumps up and stabs him through the face with the Master Sword.
I would play this game.
I would play this game and buy copies for all my friends.
MuddBudd on
There's no plan, there's no race to be run
The harder the rain, honey, the sweeter the sun.
Almost none, unless the black character is either:
a hood gansta
a basketball player
one of several selectable characters
I also wouldn't mind more female main characters a'la Jade from Beyond Good and Evil. She's not androgynous, but she's not a big-titted playboy bunny in a metal bikini either.
Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
I think the other problem here is that most videogame storytelling, aside from a few RPGs, is much too blunt and clumsy to elegantly incorporate aspects of someone's sexuality particuarly well.
Imagine if the people responsible for Gears of War had decided to make its protagonist openly gay. Imagine, for a brief and hideous moment, what that might have been like.
I...don't think anyone's sexuality had anything to do with anything in that game, so why would it ever even come up?
I think the other problem here is that most videogame storytelling, aside from a few RPGs, is much too blunt and clumsy to elegantly incorporate aspects of someone's sexuality particuarly well.
Imagine if the people responsible for Gears of War had decided to make its protagonist openly gay. Imagine, for a brief and hideous moment, what that might have been like.
I've played plenty of games with good storytelling. God of War, Disgaea, Odin Sphere, and the Silent Hills come immediately to mind. Sexuality was a major or minor part of all of these games.
Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
It's really just a matter of a more limited audience. But Asian countries which seem to be more comfortable with homosexual characters won't be freaking out that much, and there are a decent number of people who would play it in Western countries.
If done well, -I'd- play it. Even though I want to set fire to Angel Sanctuary.
I think the other problem here is that most videogame storytelling, aside from a few RPGs, is much too blunt and clumsy to elegantly incorporate aspects of someone's sexuality particuarly well.
Imagine if the people responsible for Gears of War had decided to make its protagonist openly gay. Imagine, for a brief and hideous moment, what that might have been like.
I...don't think anyone's sexuality had anything to do with anything in that game, so why would it ever even come up?
Well, that wasn't really the point. It's more the fact that the game is a pretty good example of what passes for storytelling in the mainstream videogame market, which is to say, yes, you're correct in that not only is sexuality pretty irrelevant, but also, if it had been, it probably would have been at best, really, really awkward.
Also, Feral, I'm not sure I follow with God of War. I mean, yes, I recall sexuality insofar as there were titties bouncing around, but that doesn't really indicate a particuarly graceful or tasteful implementation of sexuality.
Almost none, unless the black character is either:
a hood gansta
a basketball player
one of several selectable characters
I also wouldn't mind more female main characters a'la Jade from Beyond Good and Evil. She's not androgynous, but she's not a big-titted playboy bunny in a metal bikini either.
Yeah. Games are pretty bad about everyone except for straight white males. See also: movies, TV (although TV is pretty good about women).
Shoehorning gayness into a non-sexual character wouldn't make any sense. But if a character's sexuality is going to be portrayed anyway, why not on occasion reverse that sexuality and make it gay or bi?
So take Silent Hill for instance. All of the characters in Silent Hill have tortured backstories; rape and molestation are occasional themes. What if one of the tortured main characters had psychological trauma from being abused by his own father after coming out of the closet? That would be pretty powerful and fit with the franchise well.
Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
Posts
Star Trek did the same thing. The Next Generation writers tried several times to introduce gay characters and stories into the series, and got smacked back down by the producers who were either homophobic or terrified it would affect ad sales or something. They managed to slip that one 'hermaphrodite' story in, but that was about it.
I am hoping for some good gay characters in Mass Effect.
The harder the rain, honey, the sweeter the sun.
I think the story about shooting down Bioware's plan for a gay character helps puts the should in a different light.
Yeah, you meet her. I'm sure I remember talking to her at the beginning of the game, and she's in the scene if you don't go in to the cafe at the end of chapter one.
3DS: 1607-3034-6970
RpG's though are a different breed. In customizing your character, which is becoming more and more indepth as time goes on, should certainly have that as an option. Someone already mentioned Fable, and I thought that was a pretty progressive approach, where you could have whatever kind of relationhip you wanted, but there were fewer gay NPC's to choose from, wheras there were a lot more options if you were straight. I think this is reflective of the real world, where your selection gets trimmed a bit due to one's sexuality.
I think it's great to have as an option, a real, fleshed out option like any other. Male and female. Personally I'd like to have more customization for leads in all games. It's sad you can't play a girl in GTA for example, even though SA was basically a big game of 'dress-up' with guns and cars. I think male centric imagery would help even the score a bit (well oiled whatevers), and open up play experiences to male and female sexualities, whatever bodies those happen to be in.
Except that Luke is a total homo.
Did I say that? Did I say that it's easy to pick homosexuals or bisexuals in a crowd? I didn't. Don't put words in my mouth.
It's something a friend of mine asked me and a few of my gamer buddies-I thought it would be interesting discussion fodder. Had I known that somebody would try to blindside me, I might've reonsidered.
I frag, therefore I am.
Just once, I'd like to be able to go on XBL, and NOT be called a mother-fucker.
Watch the Robot Chicken Star Wars special to see the truth.
And there is a small bit of lesbian love in KOTOR.
I frag, therefore I am.
Just once, I'd like to be able to go on XBL, and NOT be called a mother-fucker.
good call feral!
So, I mean....I can understand the question, but it's almost a non issue. I'm pretty sure there's a good number of videogame protagonists you could just as easily pretend are gay, if only for the utter lack of proof to the contrary.
The harder the rain, honey, the sweeter the sun.
She actually looks pretty good in that suit.
Is she gonna seduce Samus?
I stoled the image from gaygamer. I giggle every time I see it. Not so much because I think it'd be funny if badass Master Chief was a woman, but the idea of all the frat-boy types who obsess over Halo screaming at the big reveal.
God I would die laughing.
The harder the rain, honey, the sweeter the sun.
With a wife and a kid?
I don't remember that part of the movie.
The books that take place after the movie are official canon.
The harder the rain, honey, the sweeter the sun.
The mayor of the most prosperous city in your travels that you ever met was a black woman. And I can kind of seeing there being a white-male increase due to the government handpicking one thousand people for each vault, and the Enclave are a bunch of assholes, so it's not a HUGE stretch of the imagination.
I'd love to a see a game where the main character is gay. Not necessarily flamboyantly, stereotypically gay. Just... he prefers other boys. And he doesn't make a big deal out of it. But everybody else does. "Ha ha ha!" the big bad guy says, "The great hero likes other boys? This will be easy!" Then our hero the fag jumps up and stabs him through the face with the Master Sword.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
Especially if done in a really classy way.
Finally the androgyny will make sense.
I think you actually just invented the only way imaginable to destroy even more goodwill among the 13-15 year old post Wind Waker crowd.
Yeah, that's the problem. Make a main character gay (without him being comic relief, a'la the shopkeepers in Shadow Hearts Covenant) and you've basically fucked your chances of snagging the homophobe market, which I think is a much larger market than the gay market, at least in the US.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
So probably not your target game-playing audience.
I would play this game.
That's not the question to ask, Gnasty, considering how many of the games are made in Asian countries which have mostly been exposed to the US and Europe.
It's more a matter of how many of those have been something other than a stereotype. Voodoo and gangsters and so forth.
Imagine if the people responsible for Gears of War had decided to make its protagonist openly gay. Imagine, for a brief and hideous moment, what that might have been like.
Your analogy completely falls apart when "overly romanticized" is pretty far from the general view of lesbianism.
Either way, we're not exactly wrong, are we?
I would play this game and buy copies for all my friends.
The harder the rain, honey, the sweeter the sun.
Almost none, unless the black character is either:
a hood gansta
a basketball player
one of several selectable characters
I also wouldn't mind more female main characters a'la Jade from Beyond Good and Evil. She's not androgynous, but she's not a big-titted playboy bunny in a metal bikini either.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
I...don't think anyone's sexuality had anything to do with anything in that game, so why would it ever even come up?
I've played plenty of games with good storytelling. God of War, Disgaea, Odin Sphere, and the Silent Hills come immediately to mind. Sexuality was a major or minor part of all of these games.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
--
It's really just a matter of a more limited audience. But Asian countries which seem to be more comfortable with homosexual characters won't be freaking out that much, and there are a decent number of people who would play it in Western countries.
If done well, -I'd- play it. Even though I want to set fire to Angel Sanctuary.
Well, that wasn't really the point. It's more the fact that the game is a pretty good example of what passes for storytelling in the mainstream videogame market, which is to say, yes, you're correct in that not only is sexuality pretty irrelevant, but also, if it had been, it probably would have been at best, really, really awkward.
Also, Feral, I'm not sure I follow with God of War. I mean, yes, I recall sexuality insofar as there were titties bouncing around, but that doesn't really indicate a particuarly graceful or tasteful implementation of sexuality.
Yeah. Games are pretty bad about everyone except for straight white males. See also: movies, TV (although TV is pretty good about women).
So take Silent Hill for instance. All of the characters in Silent Hill have tortured backstories; rape and molestation are occasional themes. What if one of the tortured main characters had psychological trauma from being abused by his own father after coming out of the closet? That would be pretty powerful and fit with the franchise well.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.