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Stop Snitching! What the hell is "Urban Culture"?

245

Posts

  • PodlyPodly you unzipped me! it's all coming back! i don't like it!Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    We aren't assuming that all black people who dress like thugs have this mentality, correct?

    Because it's really hard, from a purely consumer standpoint, not to dress like a thug if you live in some places.

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  • MildQuixoticMildQuixotic ClubPA
    edited July 2007
    Its a cancer, there is no fixing some of these communities--they need to be wiped clean

    It has nothing to do with races or cultures--it is a malignancy that has to be excised

    MildQuixotic on
  • PodlyPodly you unzipped me! it's all coming back! i don't like it!Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Its a cancer, there is no fixing some of these communities--they need to be wiped clean

    It has nothing to do with races or cultures--it is a malignancy that has to be excised

    Sieg Heil! Sieg Heil!

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  • MildQuixoticMildQuixotic ClubPA
    edited July 2007
    Podly wrote: »
    Its a cancer, there is no fixing some of these communities--they need to be wiped clean

    It has nothing to do with races or cultures--it is a malignancy that has to be excised

    Sieg Hail! Sieg Hail!


    You win the Godwin prize! :lol:

    MildQuixotic on
  • MildQuixoticMildQuixotic ClubPA
    edited July 2007
    No seriously, I was being facetious but Baltimore could use a going over with a fine-toothed comb (made of napalm)

    MildQuixotic on
  • PodlyPodly you unzipped me! it's all coming back! i don't like it!Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    No seriously, I was being facetious but Baltimore could use a going over with a fine-toothed comb (made of napalm)

    Or better yet, why don't we just give away poisoned grape drink? :roll:

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  • MildQuixoticMildQuixotic ClubPA
    edited July 2007
    Podly wrote: »
    No seriously, I was being facetious but Baltimore could use a going over with a fine-toothed comb (made of napalm)

    Or better yet, why don't we just give away poisoned grape drink? :roll:

    Free trips to six flags! (Internment Camps?)

    MildQuixotic on
  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Once the culutre of willful ignorance takes root it's tough to get rid of. Especially when conditions are as bad as they are in theinner city where everyone with any ability or brains is headin' for the hills as fast as possible at the first opportunity.

    It's sad really.

    I'll be the firs tto admit my prejudices. I find people who follow the "thug" culture very difficult to deal with. i find them abrasive and obnoxious. It bugs me because I'm sure plenty of them are decent people when it comes down to it. The way they are raised to deal witht he world is so annoying though.

    nexuscrawler on
  • PodlyPodly you unzipped me! it's all coming back! i don't like it!Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Once the culutre of willful ignorance takes root it's tough to get rid of. Especially when conditions are as bad as they are in theinner city where everyone with any ability or brains is headin' for the hills as fast as possible at the first opportunity.

    It's sad really.

    I'll be the firs tto admit my prejudices. I find people who follow the "thug" culture very difficult to deal with. i find them abrasive and obnoxious. It bugs me because I'm sure plenty of them are decent people when it comes down to it. The way they are raised to deal witht he world is so annoying though.

    Yes. I feel that I am living a superior mode of life to people right outside my window, but I wouldn't say I am a better person.

    Dealing with other cultures can be very different, despite what pc propoganda may tell you. Miscegenation may be a big contributer to the rise in divorce. (I mean in the widest sense possible, like Italians marrying Russians.) People just have different expectations on what life and marriage etc mean from what they grew up with.

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  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    No seriously, I was being facetious but Baltimore could use a going over with a fine-toothed comb (made of napalm)

    You mean MOVE-style urban renewal?

    AngelHedgie on
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  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    I love this story.

    At my university a couple years ago, the exchange students were given cameras and told to photograph the things that most struck them about living in America. There were a couple interesting ones, like a kid from India talking about how weird it was to have homes next to a graveyard, but the one that sticks with me was a shot of a storefront with the eponymous "No Guns Allowed" sticker. The caption under it was "Why do Americans need this? Do people really bring guns into stores and restaurants here?"

    I think a large part of this is simply the rise of urban culture and the ease with which guns are associated with that. I don't want to turn this into a gun control thread, but I wonder how much the violence culture around urban culutre has affected the country as a whole.

    You should probably look in the other direction as well. The culture of violence that is associated with "urban" culture isn't really new or exclusive to that culture. The bad ass dude poppin' caps and kicking the shit out of people and bedding tons of women has been a popular archetype for quite a while in this country. It only makes sense that it would show up in cultures where being hardened and not taking any shit is the ideal.

    wwtMask on
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  • PodlyPodly you unzipped me! it's all coming back! i don't like it!Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    The liquor store on my block (which is actually a very classy establishment. They have bellicart Salmon, which is a pretty honkey drink) has a big sign in the anteroom that says "NO HOODED PERSONS"

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  • MildQuixoticMildQuixotic ClubPA
    edited July 2007
    No seriously, I was being facetious but Baltimore could use a going over with a fine-toothed comb (made of napalm)

    You mean MOVE-style urban renewal?


    Koyaanisqatsi!

    MildQuixotic on
  • japanjapan Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Podly wrote: »
    The liquor store on my block (which is actually a very classy establishment. They have bellicart Salmon, which is a pretty honkey drink) has a big sign in the anteroom that says "NO HOODED PERSONS"

    This is pretty common in the UK too, though it tends to be extended to baseball caps pulled low over the face as well. Honestly, if you could replace gun crime with knife crime, and gangsta rap with hard dance, then you'd have the typical Scottish ned.

    That suggests to me that the "thug culture" in the US, and it's international equivalents, have little to do with race, and everything to do with urban deprivation.

    japan on
  • ShintoShinto __BANNED USERS
    edited July 2007
    For some reason, I find knife crime scarier than gun crime.

    Shinto on
  • japanjapan Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Shinto wrote: »
    For some reason, I find knife crime scarier than gun crime.

    You just reminded me of this:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MK2PryGzW5s

    mostly because the tone of the reporter is so completely incredulous. So I don't think you're alone in that sentiment.

    japan on
  • MildQuixoticMildQuixotic ClubPA
    edited July 2007
    Shinto wrote: »
    For some reason, I find knife crime scarier than gun crime.


    It takes a nastier type to be willing to stab, a hood with a gun may very well be just as scared as you are

    MildQuixotic on
  • Mr BubblesMr Bubbles David Koresh Superstar Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    japan wrote: »
    Shinto wrote: »
    For some reason, I find knife crime scarier than gun crime.

    You just reminded me of this:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MK2PryGzW5s

    mostly because the tone of the reporter is so completely incredulous. So I don't think you're alone in that sentiment.

    I love Glasgow

    Mr Bubbles on
  • BubbaTBubbaT Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    hawkbox wrote: »
    Manda wrote: »
    Of course, I'm dating a white engineer, so take my opinion for what it's worth.

    Course you do realize that you arent ":Thug" and are siding with the Man right?

    I see something similar up here in Alberta, except replace Black and hispanic with Retard Redneck.

    The more violent and stupid you are the more respect you get.

    They're the same culture. They demand respect, are territorial, glorify violence, sexually promiscuous, heavily religious, and are anti-establishment in all respects - especially anti-education/intellectualism. For decades the closest analogue in the US to a poor Southern black was a poor Southern white. Just switch Hatfields and McCoys with Bloods and Crips, or to a lesser extent 18th Street and MS-13 (they're starting to resemble mafia-style organized crime than straight street gangs).

    BubbaT on
  • YosemiteSamYosemiteSam Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Maybe only stupid people end up in prison or something? I don't know.
    The Cat wrote: »
    Chavs in the UK are pretty similar, plus bad teeth. I dunno, people are shits?
    Feral wrote: »
    Well, yeah. "Don't do drugs" and "Stay in school" aren't messages that sell records, or books.

    As for why people buy into it... well, it's sexy, in a way. Thugs are the modern version of pirates - what young man wouldn't like to kick ass, be drunk or fucked up all day, never have to work a day in his life, never grow old (because he dies first), never be sick or weak, and have all the ladies want him?
    Gorgeeen wrote: »
    I used to be a Homicide Cop.


    Now I'm gonna lay things out pretty neatly here. A lot of the time the stuff you hear from these people are caused by insecurities and internal struggles. The problem is that it has become to easy to get fame in today's shrinking world. Information moves rapidly and reputations spread faster than wildfire now, and this pushes people to do more drastic things to constantly out do other people.


    It has escalated in years because we are in the middle of an Urban Cold War. Always trying to be the hardest motherfucker.
    ege02 wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    Thugs are the modern version of pirates - what young man wouldn't like to kick ass, be drunk or fucked up all day, never have to work a day in his life, never grow old (because he dies first), never be sick or weak, and have all the ladies want him?

    :lol:

    It's society's being enamored with the "badboy" personality. Strength and confidence are sexy traits.

    I could go on with the quotes. I am disgusted by this thread. I cannot believe how judgmental almost every post in this thread is.

    So we have a culture--you can call it "urban," "thug," "hip hop," whatever you want, but for the sake of being honest let's take a second to admit that it is composed almost entirely of poor blacks and to a lesser extent hispanics--who are faced with problems like violent crime, robbery, drugs, sexism, and so on. These are all undeniably problems that are especially prevalent in the black community, and that's not excusable or acceptable. Everyone here has made that perfectly clear.

    But when it comes to analyzing why this culture exists, almost everyone in this thread has very little to say. People have blamed it on "stupidity," or said that "people are shits," as if millions of people collectively just became stupid or shitty for no reason. People have said that "it's sexy," with the obvious unsaid correlary that other communities (e.g., most whites) either don't find this culture sexy or have superior willpower to avoid its evil temptations. Someone said that it's about getting a good reputation, with similar tacit correlaries.

    This completely blows my mind. For a forum that so quickly lambasts intellectual laziness and quick judgment in other threads, almost everyone is so quick in this thread to assume that millions of black Americans have created this culture for no external reason at all. It's as if to most of you, the poor blacks who are part of this culture are so far removed from you, so fundamentally different from you, that they do not deserve your help, consideration, or even sympathy. All of this is blatantly intellectually lazy, judgmental, and racist. Yes, racist. Almost everyone in the culture we are talking about is black or hispanic, and those of you who have said these ignorant things knew that when you said them. You should be ashamed.

    YosemiteSam on
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  • MildQuixoticMildQuixotic ClubPA
    edited July 2007
    Im' completely out of my depth as far as helping fix the situation, all I know is that im' tired of being under constant threat of home invasion or stabbing--I think the "community leaders" everyone likes to proselytize about seem to have a rather limited level of control, wouldn't you say? Thats not to say they don't do what they can, but GODDAMN its really really bad out there.

    MildQuixotic on
  • Salvation122Salvation122 Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    So we have a culture--you can call it "urban," "thug," "hip hop," whatever you want, but for the sake of being honest let's take a second to admit that it is composed almost entirely of poor blacks and to a lesser extent hispanics--who are faced with problems like violent crime, robbery, drugs, sexism, and so on. These are all undeniably problems that are especially prevalent in the black community, and that's not excusable or acceptable. Everyone here has made that perfectly clear.

    But when it comes to analyzing why this culture exists, almost everyone in this thread has very little to say. People have blamed it on "stupidity," or said that "people are shits," as if millions of people collectively just became stupid or shitty for no reason. People have said that "it's sexy," with the obvious unsaid correlary that other communities (e.g., most whites) either don't find this culture sexy or have superior willpower to avoid its evil temptations. Someone said that it's about getting a good reputation, with similar tacit correlaries.
    It's not a hell of a stretch to say that thug culture is in no small part responsible for the problems you defined.

    Salvation122 on
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  • PicardathonPicardathon Registered User
    edited July 2007
    No seriously, I was being facetious but Baltimore could use a going over with a fine-toothed comb (made of napalm)

    I remember reading a story where they said that they should start focusing recidivism work on a few neighborhoods, because thats where the criminals come from.
    Not just inner cities, specific neighborhoods in them.
    They used Bedford Steyvesun (I butchered that, I know) in New York, but I think that Englewood in Chicago and a bunch of other specific neighborhoods in other cities are like that as well.
    In other words, you sort of have a point.

    Picardathon on
  • RaggaholicRaggaholic Registered User
    edited July 2007
    Yosemite Sam, the responsibility and blame for where blacks are with "urban culture" falls squarely on the shoulders of the black community for not wanting, or expecting, better. There, I said it.

    Raggaholic on
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  • MildQuixoticMildQuixotic ClubPA
    edited July 2007
    Raggaholic wrote: »
    Yosemite Sam, the responsibility and blame for where blacks are with "urban culture" falls squarely on the shoulders of the black community for not wanting, or expecting, better. There, I said it.


    And before people attack this statement, this is largely what the community leaders are saying anyway

    MildQuixotic on
  • PicardathonPicardathon Registered User
    edited July 2007
    Raggaholic wrote: »
    Yosemite Sam, the responsibility and blame for where blacks are with "urban culture" falls squarely on the shoulders of the black community for not wanting, or expecting, better. There, I said it.

    Are you really saying that none of this is the outsiders fault? We don't expect better from them either, and a tyranny of low expectations usually starts from the outside.

    Picardathon on
  • PicardathonPicardathon Registered User
    edited July 2007
    Raggaholic wrote: »
    Yosemite Sam, the responsibility and blame for where blacks are with "urban culture" falls squarely on the shoulders of the black community for not wanting, or expecting, better. There, I said it.


    And before people attack this statement, this is largely what the community leaders are saying anyway

    Because Bill Cosby's statements about the black community had mass approval from the black community and started a change for the better?
    No, the Rainbow Coalition, who invited him to speak, were totally appaled and the next speaker lambasted him.
    What "community leaders" are you talking about?
    And I will agree that many people don't snitch because they'd rather wait until they get caught commiting a crime and can use the information to reduce their sentence.

    Picardathon on
  • ege02ege02 __BANNED USERS
    edited July 2007
    But when it comes to analyzing why this culture exists, almost everyone in this thread has very little to say. People have blamed it on "stupidity," or said that "people are shits," as if millions of people collectively just became stupid or shitty for no reason. People have said that "it's sexy," with the obvious unsaid correlary that other communities (e.g., most whites) either don't find this culture sexy or have superior willpower to avoid its evil temptations. Someone said that it's about getting a good reputation, with similar tacit correlaries.

    This completely blows my mind. For a forum that so quickly lambasts intellectual laziness and quick judgment in other threads, almost everyone is so quick in this thread to assume that millions of black Americans have created this culture for no external reason at all. It's as if to most of you, the poor blacks who are part of this culture are so far removed from you, so fundamentally different from you, that they do not deserve your help, consideration, or even sympathy. All of this is blatantly intellectually lazy, judgmental, and racist. Yes, racist. Almost everyone in the culture we are talking about is black or hispanic, and those of you who have said these ignorant things knew that when you said them. You should be ashamed.

    First of all, I'm sorry that we disappointed you. But perhaps you thought way too highly of this forum and its people in the first place.

    I can speak for my comment only, that "it's sexy". I didn't say the culture itself is sexy. I said the badboy traits, namely confidence and strength, are sexy. I don't know how you jumped into the corollary that you did above regarding this, but that's not surprising since you misunderstood what I said. Of course white people find strength and confidence sexy as well. It's just that in "their world", or whatever, these traits manifest themselves in different ways. Not in killing, selling drugs, kicking ass and taking names, but in having the balls to stand up to your boss, stifling competition in the corporate world and assimilating power under one's name. I mean, in the end that is what it is all about: power. It's just that gaining that power requires different things.

    ege02 on
    Medopine wrote: »
    Fuck that woman going "oh god oh no!!"

    It's nature, bitch
  • MildQuixoticMildQuixotic ClubPA
    edited July 2007
    Raggaholic wrote: »
    Yosemite Sam, the responsibility and blame for where blacks are with "urban culture" falls squarely on the shoulders of the black community for not wanting, or expecting, better. There, I said it.

    Are you really saying that none of this is the outsiders fault? We don't expect better from them either, and a tyranny of low expectations usually starts from the outside.

    "The man" and "Them" live in what is called the real world--ruled by often ruthless but hopefully legal means where interests are controlled by money and open violence and theft are not tolerated. The world is cruel--but if these clowns want to be "Thug"--someone should tell them to hit up wall-street.

    There is nothing glamorous about bashing your head against a wall you like to call "The System"--being a rebel isn't glamorous if you are only in it for wealth...

    MildQuixotic on
  • RaggaholicRaggaholic Registered User
    edited July 2007
    And before people attack this statement, this is largely what the community leaders are saying anyway
    I don't mind people attacking the statement because I can very well defend it. I won't rely on so called "community leaders" to do it, though, for there really aren't many community leaders within the black community.

    No, I shouldn't say that. There are, but very few people, if any, know their names.

    Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Kwami X, and the like are not community leaders. They are poverty pimps. They are far more concerned with getting their face on TV and their name in the paper than they are about really solving problems within the black community.
    Raggaholic wrote: »
    Yosemite Sam, the responsibility and blame for where blacks are with "urban culture" falls squarely on the shoulders of the black community for not wanting, or expecting, better. There, I said it.

    Are you really saying that none of this is the outsiders fault? We don't expect better from them either, and a tyranny of low expectations usually starts from the outside.
    I'm saying that yes, the lack of expectation within the black community is the sole fault of those within the black community who do nothing but perpetuate that lack.

    Raggaholic on
    Feral wrote:
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  • PicardathonPicardathon Registered User
    edited July 2007
    For instance: We could eliminate property taxes and raise income taxes to fund schools, giving schools the same amount of money (also easing evaluation.)
    We need to extend NCLB to high school levels and possibly make it more difficult to drop out (make it so you need a 10th grade education to drop out, or even raise to 11.)(insert spinal tap joke here)
    We should start evaluating teachers more effectively, evaluating on test performances rather then their ability to hand in lesson plans. A prepared teacher is not a good teacher.
    Illinois is hamstrung by our idiotic governer and lack of republican competition that would hold our dems accountable, but I'm sure that there are some states that could get this done.

    Picardathon on
  • YosemiteSamYosemiteSam Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    So we have a culture--you can call it "urban," "thug," "hip hop," whatever you want, but for the sake of being honest let's take a second to admit that it is composed almost entirely of poor blacks and to a lesser extent hispanics--who are faced with problems like violent crime, robbery, drugs, sexism, and so on. These are all undeniably problems that are especially prevalent in the black community, and that's not excusable or acceptable. Everyone here has made that perfectly clear.

    But when it comes to analyzing why this culture exists, almost everyone in this thread has very little to say. People have blamed it on "stupidity," or said that "people are shits," as if millions of people collectively just became stupid or shitty for no reason. People have said that "it's sexy," with the obvious unsaid correlary that other communities (e.g., most whites) either don't find this culture sexy or have superior willpower to avoid its evil temptations. Someone said that it's about getting a good reputation, with similar tacit correlaries.
    It's not a hell of a stretch to say that thug culture is in no small part responsible for the problems you defined.
    Thug culture largely is the problems I defined. But where does thug culture come from? Why do these problems exist? I'm arguing that these questions are very important and demand serious consideration, and that offhand dismissal of them (e.g. "because they're stupid") is ignorant to the point of being immoral.
    Raggaholic wrote: »
    Yosemite Sam, the responsibility and blame for where blacks are with "urban culture" falls squarely on the shoulders of the black community for not wanting, or expecting, better. There, I said it.
    That is true to an extent, but that doesn't mean that external factors aren't making it much harder for black people to do as well as white people in America, in general. A suitable analogy would be if you have two kids with equal intelligence levels, but one is told by society for all his life that he is likely to do well and succeed academically, whereas the other is told by society all his life that he is not likely to succeed academically, and no one cares if he does anyway, and his school isn't going to get nearly as much funding for education. Ultimately, both kids are responsible for their own education. That doesn't mean that it isn't a hell of a lot easier to be responsible for your education if your the first kid than it is if you're the second kid. The first kid basically has to not drop the silver platter when it's handed to him. The second kid has to somehow make his own out of dirt. Doesn't the second kid deserve our help, consideration, and sympathy? Isn't it understandable, if not acceptable, when the second kid throws the dirt he's been given at people around him rather than trying to do the near impossible task he's been given? Isn't it myopic and cruel to directly compare the second kid's success to the first, and merely dismiss the second kid as "irresponsible?"

    Ege: sorry I misunderstood you. But isn't the question of why the world of poor blacks is so different from that of most whites important? Isn't it worth more consideration that just seeing that it is how it is?

    YosemiteSam on
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  • PicardathonPicardathon Registered User
    edited July 2007
    Raggaholic wrote: »
    Yosemite Sam, the responsibility and blame for where blacks are with "urban culture" falls squarely on the shoulders of the black community for not wanting, or expecting, better. There, I said it.

    Are you really saying that none of this is the outsiders fault? We don't expect better from them either, and a tyranny of low expectations usually starts from the outside.

    "The man" and "Them" live in what is called the real world--ruled by often ruthless but hopefully legal means where interests are controlled by money and open violence and theft are not tolerated. The world is cruel--but if these clowns want to be "Thug"--someone should tell them to hit up wall-street.

    There is nothing glamorous about bashing your head against a wall you like to call "The System"--being a rebel isn't glamorous if you are only in it for wealth...

    I meant that the man doesn't expect any better from the ghetto, leading the ghetto to decline. Or what Yosemite said, since he agrees with me and is much more eloquent.

    Picardathon on
  • RaggaholicRaggaholic Registered User
    edited July 2007
    For instance: We could eliminate property taxes and raise income taxes to fund schools, giving schools the same amount of money (also easing evaluation.)
    Do that, and you create far more problems tan you solve. The only thing you'll have is those with greater incomes moving out, and a totally blighted area due to no tax revenue.
    A suitable analogy would be if you have two kids with equal intelligence levels, but one is told by society for all his life that he is likely to do well and succeed academically, whereas the other is told by society all his life that he is not likely to succeed academically, and no one cares if he does anyway, and his school isn't going to get nearly as much funding for education.
    The more suitable analogy would be two neighbors living next door to each other, both with similar aged children. One has a child that is encouraged in the home, and the other has a child who is told all of the detrimental things. That's the suitable analogy because it's not greater society telling the "black child" that they won't succeed. It's their community giving them that expectation and acceptance of failure.

    Don't believe me, then look at affluent prominently black areas versus impoverished ones. If it simply came down to society as a whole telling you that, then the outcomes would be similar. They aren't, though, and it's causing a rift in the community much larger than the "middle class disappearance" in the greater American community.

    Raggaholic on
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  • MildQuixoticMildQuixotic ClubPA
    edited July 2007
    Raggaholic wrote: »
    Yosemite Sam, the responsibility and blame for where blacks are with "urban culture" falls squarely on the shoulders of the black community for not wanting, or expecting, better. There, I said it.

    Are you really saying that none of this is the outsiders fault? We don't expect better from them either, and a tyranny of low expectations usually starts from the outside.

    "The man" and "Them" live in what is called the real world--ruled by often ruthless but hopefully legal means where interests are controlled by money and open violence and theft are not tolerated. The world is cruel--but if these clowns want to be "Thug"--someone should tell them to hit up wall-street.

    There is nothing glamorous about bashing your head against a wall you like to call "The System"--being a rebel isn't glamorous if you are only in it for wealth...

    I meant that the man doesn't expect any better from the ghetto, leading the ghetto to decline. Or what Yosemite said, since he agrees with me and is much more eloquent.

    Who gives a fuck what people expect? Just because someone expects you to be socially destructive doesn't mean you are shoehorned into that role.

    Then again I guess ive' never felt those pressures

    MildQuixotic on
  • ege02ege02 __BANNED USERS
    edited July 2007
    That is true to an extent, but that doesn't mean that external factors aren't making it much harder for black people to do as well as white people in America, in general. A suitable analogy would be if you have two kids with equal intelligence levels, but one is told by society for all his life that he is likely to do well and succeed academically, whereas the other is told by society all his life that he is not likely to succeed academically, and no one cares if he does anyway, and his school isn't going to get nearly as much funding for education. Ultimately, both kids are responsible for their own education. That doesn't mean that it isn't a hell of a lot easier to be responsible for your education if your the first kid than it is if you're the second kid. The first kid basically has to not drop the silver platter when it's handed to him. The second kid has to somehow make his own out of dirt. Doesn't the second kid deserve our help, consideration, and sympathy? Isn't it understandable, if not acceptable, when the second kid throws the dirt he's been given at people around him rather than trying to do the near impossible task he's been given? Isn't it myopic and cruel to directly compare the second kid's success to the first, and merely dismiss the second kid as "irresponsible?"

    In almost every case -- barring certain exceptions like a permanent and serious physical and mental handicap -- people's failure in life is a result of their own limiting beliefs about what they are capable of.

    If people implanted in my mind from the day I was born that I was a failure, that society expected me to fail and wouldn't care if I succeeded, and I ended up as a failure, the blame would still be on me, not on society. The reason is that I allowed society to have such a negative effect on me, to wear down my self-esteem to the point where I stopped believing in myself. I wasn't strong enough -- mentally speaking -- to bare my chest in the face of great adversity and try my damn hardest to succeed in spite of what people think of me. I mean, there are people like that, who rise from nothingness to having everything, and a lot of the times they don't owe it to luck, but to themselves.

    Blaming other people -- or society in general -- for one's shortcomings and failures is a cop out, and it's a very disempowering one. Like I said, for the great majority of people out there, regardless of sex or race, there is no limit to one can accomplish if they put their mind to it.

    ege02 on
    Medopine wrote: »
    Fuck that woman going "oh god oh no!!"

    It's nature, bitch
  • FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD along with you if I get drunk well I know I'm gonna be gonna be the man whoRegistered User regular
    edited July 2007
    YosemiteSam, you rolled me up in your quote list so I'm going to assume that your tirade was directed to me as well. If so, you engaged in a big fucking strawman because I said nothing like what you went off about.
    So we have a culture--you can call it "urban," "thug," "hip hop," whatever you want, but for the sake of being honest let's take a second to admit that it is composed almost entirely of poor blacks and to a lesser extent hispanics--who are faced with problems like violent crime, robbery, drugs, sexism, and so on. These are all undeniably problems that are especially prevalent in the black community, and that's not excusable or acceptable. Everyone here has made that perfectly clear.

    But when it comes to analyzing why this culture exists, almost everyone in this thread has very little to say. People have blamed it on "stupidity," or said that "people are shits," as if millions of people collectively just became stupid or shitty for no reason. People have said that "it's sexy," with the obvious unsaid correlary that other communities (e.g., most whites) either don't find this culture sexy or have superior willpower to avoid its evil temptations. Someone said that it's about getting a good reputation, with similar tacit correlaries.

    Never did I say that thug culture is present exclusively or even primarily in blacks. I'll be the first to argue that glorification of criminality is not limited to any given race. If anything, it's a generational issue. It's typically young adults and adolescents who admire the criminal archetype; the belief that you can be successful while simultaneously bucking the system is a classic teenage male fantasy and is prevalent in adolescent culture of every race. It's a corollary of the rogue archetype; the Han Solo and the Dread Pirate Roberts. If it stays a fantasy, it's harmless. Unfortunately, it doesn't always stay a fantasy.
    For a forum that so quickly lambasts intellectual laziness and quick judgment in other threads, almost everyone is so quick in this thread to assume that millions of black Americans have created this culture for no external reason at all.

    I didn't say that, and I specifically said:
    Feral wrote: »
    There's a term I learned early on and I like to use called "you bought it", where if someone fucks up its on them. Also, I learned there's always someone holding them down. This C/O, the Department of Corrections, Medical, their P&P officer.

    The thing is that both are often true. You could be fucking up your own life while other people are keeping you down. One does not negate the other, and a lot of people tend to judge with heavy bias towards one side or the other.
    It's as if to most of you, the poor blacks who are part of this culture are so far removed from you, so fundamentally different from you, that they do not deserve your help, consideration, or even sympathy.

    What the fuck? Having sympathy for somebody =/= excusing their actions.
    Let me make this perfectly clear: it is possible, and more often than not appropriate, to acknowledge that society at large has a responsibility to improve opportunities for disadvantaged groups while simultaneously holding individual members of that group responsible for the poor choices he or she makes.
    If you choose to commit acts of violence as a lifestyle, you are making a poor choice. I don't care if you're an inner city black or a corn-fed redneck or a Wall Street investment banker.
    Almost everyone in the culture we are talking about is black or hispanic, and those of you who have said these ignorant things knew that when you said them. You should be ashamed.

    Bullshit. Chavs aren't primarily black or hispanic. Plenty of whites glorify thug life.

    Feral on
    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
  • PicardathonPicardathon Registered User
    edited July 2007
    Raggaholic wrote: »
    For instance: We could eliminate property taxes and raise income taxes to fund schools, giving schools the same amount of money (also easing evaluation.)
    Do that, and you create far more problems tan you solve. The only thing you'll have is those with greater incomes moving out, and a totally blighted area due to no tax revenue.
    People will still pay the same amount of taxes, since poor people are still poor people and wealthy people are still wealthy. I don't think that my neighbors on the north shore are so greedy that they'll run out of the freaking state because the people in the ghetto deserve the right to a decent education.
    Also, per pupil spending is already rising in Chicago at least, so I don't think that the shift would be that bad.

    Picardathon on
  • RaggaholicRaggaholic Registered User
    edited July 2007
    ege02 wrote: »
    Blaming other people -- or society in general -- for one's shortcomings and failures is a cop out, and it's a very disempowering one. Like I said, for the great majority of people out there, regardless of sex or race, there is no limit to one can accomplish if they put their mind to it.
    This is the great truth that probably will never reach the greater black community.

    Community leaders won't go into a prison and say "you're here because you fucked up. Now, let's see what we can do to turn your life around." No, because people do not like personal accountability (see also, fatherless black household). You're more likely to get a following with "the man is holding you down" because it gives some sort of credibility to someone's failure.

    The great irony is that the ones for "empowerment" know this, but to stay relevant they have to keep the community disempowered.

    Raggaholic on
    Feral wrote:
    Hell just froze over, because I just agreed with everything Raggaholic said in post about sex.
  • YosemiteSamYosemiteSam Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Raggaholic wrote: »
    A suitable analogy would be if you have two kids with equal intelligence levels, but one is told by society for all his life that he is likely to do well and succeed academically, whereas the other is told by society all his life that he is not likely to succeed academically, and no one cares if he does anyway, and his school isn't going to get nearly as much funding for education.
    The more suitable analogy would be two neighbors living next door to each other, both with similar aged children. One has a child that is encouraged in the home, and the other has a child who is told all of the detrimental things. That's the suitable analogy because it's not greater society telling the "black child" that they won't succeed. It's their community giving them that expectation and acceptance of failure.

    Don't believe me, then look at affluent prominently black areas versus impoverished ones. If it simply came down to society as a whole telling you that, then the outcomes would be similar. They aren't, though, and it's causing a rift in the community much larger than the "middle class disappearance" in the greater American community.
    On what basis to you speak for the entire community of poor blacks?

    YosemiteSam on
    We are all very lucky to live in a world where there is this much music.
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