I'm somewhat concerned with the power escalation going on right now in some of the armies. Are any armies going to get toned down this edition? If they do, would they havea chance against some of the new stronger armies?
I heard somewhere, not a very reliable source though, that Tomb Kings are getting toned down a little bit.
Although I think we can expect them to just power up armies. I mean, what better way to get people to buy more minis than to appeal to their munchkin side?
Alazull on
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Mr_Rose83 Blue Ridge Protects the HolyRegistered Userregular
edited February 2008
Honestly though, I'm not seeing much in the way of power creep at the moment.
No, really.
High elves got ASF. Big whoop. That just abut brings them into line with a properly played Empire or Orc army.
VC got lost of cool new toys, sure, but they also got their basic summoning spell heavily nerfed and lost a lot of other cool(er) toys as well. And the whining about the loss of Necromancer Lords can be heard from orbit.
Whilst the Orcs did get some love, in their case this was really necessary because a lot of their stuff made no sense (Black Orc characters taking an extra hero slot for instance) compared to everyone else's lists.
Honestly, I hope the current trend continues, because the current trend is towards well thought out, fluffy, fun armies that are competitive under most conditions rather than only if you take units X,Y and Z with characters A and B.
but they also got their basic summoning spell heavily nerfed
Actually this is not as true as I'd origionally heard. They still have a spell that can raise new units, a bound item that can raise new units, and the vampires can take bloodline abilities that lets them again raise a given type of undead above their starting number. Those bloodline powers cost about 15-20 points.
I've read reports that say 10-13 power dice won't be unusual for a VC army, and it's fairly easy to add a rank to each basic undead unit every turn. Spend a huge pile on characters, and buying minimum sized units to bolster with raising is still going to be viable.
I wont pass judgement until the book is out and i've seen the army played, but I'm just a bit concerned so far.
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AlazullYour body is not a temple, it's an amusement park.Enjoy the ride.Registered Userregular
edited February 2008
However, if Bloodline Powers eat up magical items points, that'd be pretty balanced.
I mean, sure they'll be able to lock you up in combat, but if they screw up on rolls then it'd be pretty easy to beat them without all their magic toys.
Alazull on
User name Alazull on Steam, PSN, Nintenders, Epic, etc.
However, if Bloodline Powers eat up magical items points, that'd be pretty balanced.
I mean, sure they'll be able to lock you up in combat, but if they screw up on rolls then it'd be pretty easy to beat them without all their magic toys.
They dont. Bloodline and magic item allocations are seperate. A vampire lord get 100points of powers AND 100 points of items.
Yeah, hard to say what the balance will really be like until the army sees a lot of action. I'm sure I won't be "concerned" when Chaos gets some love later this summer. Or when Ogres see a revision in like 15 years.
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Mr_Rose83 Blue Ridge Protects the HolyRegistered Userregular
Actually this is not as true as I'd origionally heard. They still have a spell that can raise new units, a bound item that can raise new units, and the vampires can take bloodline abilities that lets them again raise a given type of undead above their starting number. Those bloodline powers cost about 15-20 points.
I've read reports that say 10-13 power dice won't be unusual for a VC army, and it's fairly easy to add a rank to each basic undead unit every turn. Spend a huge pile on characters, and buying minimum sized units to bolster with raising is still going to be viable.
I wont pass judgement until the book is out and i've seen the army played, but I'm just a bit concerned so far.
The trouble is that those bloodline powers do cost points where they weren't necessary before and the range of the Invocation has been reduced. Overall the spell itself is much worse, but specific vampires can cast it better, maybe. And that will probably be at the expense of the other, cooler bloodline powers they can have.
And those thirteen PD you mentioned? That's for a level four Lord, three level two vampires and at least one with the extra PD power. Which means you aren't even going to have room for mundane armour on your vamps, as that is a bloodline "power".
Seriously, for every awesome new cool thing that people inevitably pick out and highlight, there will also be a drawback that either isn't mentioned or isn't commented on further.
Their hardon for direct, undisguised historical references shows through.
Oddly, that's exactly why I like it so much. It's an endless "what if" scenario with unifying themes and metaphysics; what if Martin Luther was put in charge of a late HRE gunline and attacked Melnibone?
I also don't see the power creep in play. Though I was told by a redshirt that people were going to "hate" VCs.
Just as everyone has said about every new army book for the past decade. Every time. Without fail.
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AlazullYour body is not a temple, it's an amusement park.Enjoy the ride.Registered Userregular
I also don't see the power creep in play. Though I was told by a redshirt that people were going to "hate" VCs.
Just as everyone has said about every new army book for the past decade. Every time. Without fail.
Exactly. I was told by a store employee that everyone was going to hate the new HE book, especially because of the ASF rule. And at first everyone did, especially because it applied to Great Weapons.
But then you play a few games against the HE and you realize that they still have the same weaknesses against shooting, anti-magic, and anyone who can survive Str 5 attacks and has high armor saves on a regular basis. It's just that they made it so HE can play without going all cavalry and magic now.
In the VC example, a Vampire Lord is going to run into the same problem as a Dwarf Lord or any Lord probably does. To sink all those points into that character means you can't put them into other troops, and your other characters aren't going to be able to take as many points for their own stuff either. It's the old balance of potential over power.
Alazull on
User name Alazull on Steam, PSN, Nintenders, Epic, etc.
I hope they change Tomb Kings a bit as well. Not to much but a little bit.
Like perhaps tone down ligth chariots a bit (not being unlimited with a king?) and make some other troop choices a bit more usefull.
Oh, and also make low magic lists a bit more viable. It would be really fun to play a list that didn't require you to put every avalible hero slot into priests.
For example they could make units joined by kings or princes able to march move during the magic phase or just simply march move. Or something that makes low magic armies a bit more viable.
Fluff wise I think they should just cut undead cavalery out of the picture entirely but I guess that wouldn't work. Perhaps they could just give them ligth cav that works and cut "heavy" cav completly?
I don't know. I've read lots of Egyptian history and they never used horses for anything except chariots. Of course they didn't have giant scorpions either but those are bad ass.
i don't think Tk's are that overpowerd. I mean sure if your opponent is rolling with out alot of magic support, and TK have the ability run wild in the magic phase yes. but if your opponent is rolling alot of anti magic your boned as a tk player.
Sure tone down scorpions a bit. I'd give heavy horse a boost, to at least make them usable. Cause as is I never run with horse ever.
Draeven on
Morskitter wrote "Spikes, choppas, tentacles, magic? Can't hold a candle to Sergeant Pimp here."
I'm also probably just paranoid about the power creep and it won't be as bad as my imagination is feeding to me.
With armies like TK, I don't know that chariots need to be toned down so much as they just need viable alternatives. Lots of armies suffer from that. Ogres need alternatives that are as effective as truckloads of Ironguts. Chaos needs some kind of viable alternative to knights, as warriors aren't nearly as effective. With armies that suffer from that, there's simply no reason to not take units like those and load your list heavily with them.
Though I was told by a redshirt that people were going to "hate" VCs.
Well... I already hate them. Does that count?
see wat i did thar? :winky:
Joeslop: I've thought of doing that. How hard is it to pull them from the tray? I mean... it would be a hassle to have to hold the tray an pull them off one by one...
Joeslop: I've thought of doing that. How hard is it to pull them from the tray? I mean... it would be a hassle to have to hold the tray an pull them off one by one...
I don't actually know yet; I just ordered the magnets yesterday. I do have one that found one day, its about twice as big as the ones I ordered and it's pretty strong so we'll see.
But honestly I think the fact that they won't ever fall off would more than make up for the minor annoyance of having to hold the tray down to take them off. Especially these stupid standard bearers.
So I've started the process of magnetizing my Skaven tp the movement trays. Does that make me a genius, insane or both?
I'll be doing that myself as soon as I find some thin galvanized steel I can put into my movement trays.
I HATE taking 40 minutes to set my trays up (all my clanrats are numbered)
-R
Rubberchrist on
"Nurgle has got to be my favorite chaos god, fluff wise...
He's portrayed as this sort of jovial, jolly old guy who thinks that rotting apocolyptic plague is funny as hell... So basically he's a big ole fat bastard who thinks giving you a scorching case of the herp is a big laugh." ---Erandus Gallery and Blog: http://brushandputty.blogspot.com/
Eaxactly. I'd roll more horse if they were a viable option.
I use heavy horsemen to great effect. Add them to a chariot charge to cause an autobreak on fear.
Edit: Also Tomb kings is one of the most balanced list ATM. Chariot lists are good yes, but Infantry lists are also viable, shooty armies are viable, monster heavy is viable. Really the only thing Tk's need is a re-jig of the magic items. As much as I love DOE it is stupidly overpowered.
Brets need a fixup. 90% of their magic items are complete crap, especially the arcane items carried by the Damels. There's no reason to give them anything but scrolls. They need to at least address if/how the lance formation is affected by the change to 5-wide (I think it's fine at 3 wide with it's current rules). Peg knights need to be looked at.
Dark Elves are on the schedule already and from everything i've ever heard, they need an update pretty badly.
EDIT: Oh yeah, and all the chaos factions.
So yeah, pretty much everyone :P Wood elves were done very recently though, Uts.
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Der Waffle MousBlame this on the misfortune of your birth.New Yark, New Yark.Registered Userregular
edited February 2008
Lance formation always took precedence over the standard frontage rules anyway.
Brets need a fixup. 90% of their magic items are complete crap, especially the arcane items carried by the Damels. There's no reason to give them anything but scrolls. They need to at least address if/how the lance formation is affected by the change to 5-wide (I think it's fine at 3 wide with it's current rules). Peg knights need to be looked at.
Dark Elves are on the schedule already and from everything i've ever heard, they need an update pretty badly.
EDIT: Oh yeah, and all the chaos factions.
So yeah, pretty much everyone :P Wood elves were done very recently though, Uts.
So were Ogres but they're both technically 6th, so I'd wager they'll come last again.
Bretts could afford some rebalancing; Pegasus Knights probably should have been a 0-1 unit of no more than 4 or 5 knights. I can't see why having a Lord on a pegasus suddenly makes a flying circus army OK.
EDIT: Yes, the Lance Formation rules specifically state what their size is, as opposed to whatever the 'standard' size is. Arguments over its size in 7th are one reason I stopped reading Warseer past the rumor roundups. If I had to deal with that in person I simply wouldn't waste time playing against them.
Dark Elves are on the schedule already and from everything i've ever heard, they need an update pretty badly.
There is a DE player out here who describes his army as being capable of one of two types of lists.
there are:
A lists) "Get over here so we can kick your butt..... wait! Oh, god no! Not like that, ahhhhhh we're dead"
or
B lists) "Stay there, we're coming over there to kick you're butt! Oh, wait, crap, we didn't count on that! AAAAGGGHHH!"
His exact words. From what I've seen it's pretty much the case.
-R
Rubberchrist on
"Nurgle has got to be my favorite chaos god, fluff wise...
He's portrayed as this sort of jovial, jolly old guy who thinks that rotting apocolyptic plague is funny as hell... So basically he's a big ole fat bastard who thinks giving you a scorching case of the herp is a big laugh." ---Erandus Gallery and Blog: http://brushandputty.blogspot.com/
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Der Waffle MousBlame this on the misfortune of your birth.New Yark, New Yark.Registered Userregular
edited February 2008
There's also the "PEW PEW PEW PEW PEW PEW PEW PEW PEW PEW!" list.
UtsanomikoBros before DoesRollin' in the thlayRegistered Userregular
edited February 2008
I think that falls under Type A.
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AlazullYour body is not a temple, it's an amusement park.Enjoy the ride.Registered Userregular
edited February 2008
Games Workshop could probably stand to take a year off the whole putting on tournaments and making new miniatures and standardizing the model range crap, and focus their attention on updating all armies.
I mean, weren't Vampire Counts still stuck in 4ed before they decided to update it? That's pretty much crap, actually, I think that could be one of the denotative meanings of the word crap.
EDIT: I also really think it's crap that they decided to alter the online store just at the start of tournament season. It is literally like they want me to use e-Bay and other sites to buy my models.
Alazull on
User name Alazull on Steam, PSN, Nintenders, Epic, etc.
Games Workshop could probably stand to take a year off the whole putting on tournaments and making new miniatures and standardizing the model range crap, and focus their attention on updating all armies.
Considering they have to update all the 40k armies plus all the fantasy armies on a rotating schedule, I think they actually do a moderately decent job of it. You have to considering all the playtesting time for each new army to make sure that it's not ricockulous or has truley massively unfair advantages over any other army. It would have to be playtested against all the other armies, tweaked, retested against all armies, tweaked, etc, etc. For every 40k army and every fantasy army. I can't even imagine trying to balance everything if ALL the armies were in a state of flux and re-write.
Thats a fuckin' lotta books to write and a lotta games to playtest. Now, I'm not gonna say if I think their playtesters are worth a shit, but I do think that while the pace seems glacial to those of us eagerly awaiting our book's release.... man thats a fucking lotta work. Plus there's LotR in the mix now. One fantasy book every couple months is about all we can hope for.
GW's in the business of selling models, when you get down to it. They need the model releases to be steady enough to keep the money flowing in, and I bet the GT's are a pretty good sales point for them. I honestly don't know if GW could afford to shut down GT's and re-do everything like that.
I hear what you're sayin' for sure, but i just dont know if the logistics of the business they're in would allow for something like that.
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Mr_Rose83 Blue Ridge Protects the HolyRegistered Userregular
edited February 2008
Uhwah? 4th Ed.?! Um, hell no. For a start, fourth Ed. army books are not compatible with the current system in several fundamental ways. Then there's the part where "Vampire Counts" as an army didn't exist until Sixth edition - previously it was "the Undead". VC and TK were separated out ad given their dues in terms of fluff and play style etc. The first and last VC book was published near the beginning of Sixth Edition. We are now near the beginning of Seventh.
Owning the 4th edition book? That's actually one of the few I don't have. Hmm...
Also, I actually saw something intelligent said on Warseer. In reference to potential of a scaled-up WFB "Apocalypse"; "...before tournamnets and rules lawyers turned it into a science."
Agreed so hard. I loathe the profilernation of tournamnets.
Games Workshop could probably stand to take a year off the whole putting on tournaments and making new miniatures and standardizing the model range crap, and focus their attention on updating all armies.
You have to considering all the playtesting time for each new army to make sure that it's not ricockulous or has truley massively unfair advantages over any other army. It would have to be playtested against all the other armies, tweaked, retested against all armies, tweaked, etc, etc.
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
...HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Salvation122 on
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ElldrenIs a woman dammitceterum censeoRegistered Userregular
Games Workshop could probably stand to take a year off the whole putting on tournaments and making new miniatures and standardizing the model range crap, and focus their attention on updating all armies.
You have to considering all the playtesting time for each new army to make sure that it's not ricockulous or has truley massively unfair advantages over any other army. It would have to be playtested against all the other armies, tweaked, retested against all armies, tweaked, etc, etc.
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
...HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
You laugh, but it's true.
RE VC: having seen the new vamps played, I can safely say it's certainly a tough nut to crack, but it's not exactly scary for anyone with solid anti-magic. Besides, any army where you can invest 50% or more of your points in one unit (Blood Knights) has GOT to be fun to play against, right... right?
I think he's laughing at the idea that GW actually (allegedly) playtest their material. If someone told me, with a straight face, that GW rigorously Playtested all the Warhammer armies so that they were perfectly balanced, my response would be much the same. Snrk! Balance! Ahahaaaa!
Posts
I heard somewhere, not a very reliable source though, that Tomb Kings are getting toned down a little bit.
Although I think we can expect them to just power up armies. I mean, what better way to get people to buy more minis than to appeal to their munchkin side?
No, really.
High elves got ASF. Big whoop. That just abut brings them into line with a properly played Empire or Orc army.
VC got lost of cool new toys, sure, but they also got their basic summoning spell heavily nerfed and lost a lot of other cool(er) toys as well. And the whining about the loss of Necromancer Lords can be heard from orbit.
Whilst the Orcs did get some love, in their case this was really necessary because a lot of their stuff made no sense (Black Orc characters taking an extra hero slot for instance) compared to everyone else's lists.
Honestly, I hope the current trend continues, because the current trend is towards well thought out, fluffy, fun armies that are competitive under most conditions rather than only if you take units X,Y and Z with characters A and B.
Nintendo Network ID: AzraelRose
DropBox invite link - get 500MB extra free.
Actually this is not as true as I'd origionally heard. They still have a spell that can raise new units, a bound item that can raise new units, and the vampires can take bloodline abilities that lets them again raise a given type of undead above their starting number. Those bloodline powers cost about 15-20 points.
I've read reports that say 10-13 power dice won't be unusual for a VC army, and it's fairly easy to add a rank to each basic undead unit every turn. Spend a huge pile on characters, and buying minimum sized units to bolster with raising is still going to be viable.
I wont pass judgement until the book is out and i've seen the army played, but I'm just a bit concerned so far.
I mean, sure they'll be able to lock you up in combat, but if they screw up on rolls then it'd be pretty easy to beat them without all their magic toys.
They dont. Bloodline and magic item allocations are seperate. A vampire lord get 100points of powers AND 100 points of items.
And those thirteen PD you mentioned? That's for a level four Lord, three level two vampires and at least one with the extra PD power. Which means you aren't even going to have room for mundane armour on your vamps, as that is a bloodline "power".
Seriously, for every awesome new cool thing that people inevitably pick out and highlight, there will also be a drawback that either isn't mentioned or isn't commented on further.
Nintendo Network ID: AzraelRose
DropBox invite link - get 500MB extra free.
Oddly, that's exactly why I like it so much. It's an endless "what if" scenario with unifying themes and metaphysics; what if Martin Luther was put in charge of a late HRE gunline and attacked Melnibone?
I also don't see the power creep in play. Though I was told by a redshirt that people were going to "hate" VCs.
Just as everyone has said about every new army book for the past decade. Every time. Without fail.
Exactly. I was told by a store employee that everyone was going to hate the new HE book, especially because of the ASF rule. And at first everyone did, especially because it applied to Great Weapons.
But then you play a few games against the HE and you realize that they still have the same weaknesses against shooting, anti-magic, and anyone who can survive Str 5 attacks and has high armor saves on a regular basis. It's just that they made it so HE can play without going all cavalry and magic now.
In the VC example, a Vampire Lord is going to run into the same problem as a Dwarf Lord or any Lord probably does. To sink all those points into that character means you can't put them into other troops, and your other characters aren't going to be able to take as many points for their own stuff either. It's the old balance of potential over power.
Like perhaps tone down ligth chariots a bit (not being unlimited with a king?) and make some other troop choices a bit more usefull.
Oh, and also make low magic lists a bit more viable. It would be really fun to play a list that didn't require you to put every avalible hero slot into priests.
For example they could make units joined by kings or princes able to march move during the magic phase or just simply march move. Or something that makes low magic armies a bit more viable.
Fluff wise I think they should just cut undead cavalery out of the picture entirely but I guess that wouldn't work. Perhaps they could just give them ligth cav that works and cut "heavy" cav completly?
I don't know. I've read lots of Egyptian history and they never used horses for anything except chariots. Of course they didn't have giant scorpions either but those are bad ass.
Sure tone down scorpions a bit. I'd give heavy horse a boost, to at least make them usable. Cause as is I never run with horse ever.
With armies like TK, I don't know that chariots need to be toned down so much as they just need viable alternatives. Lots of armies suffer from that. Ogres need alternatives that are as effective as truckloads of Ironguts. Chaos needs some kind of viable alternative to knights, as warriors aren't nearly as effective. With armies that suffer from that, there's simply no reason to not take units like those and load your list heavily with them.
Ayliana Moonwhisper Ecksus Cerazal
I don't actually know yet; I just ordered the magnets yesterday. I do have one that found one day, its about twice as big as the ones I ordered and it's pretty strong so we'll see.
But honestly I think the fact that they won't ever fall off would more than make up for the minor annoyance of having to hold the tray down to take them off. Especially these stupid standard bearers.
Ayliana Moonwhisper Ecksus Cerazal
I HATE taking 40 minutes to set my trays up (all my clanrats are numbered)
-R
He's portrayed as this sort of jovial, jolly old guy who thinks that rotting apocolyptic plague is funny as hell... So basically he's a big ole fat bastard who thinks giving you a scorching case of the herp is a big laugh." ---Erandus
Gallery and Blog:
http://brushandputty.blogspot.com/
I use heavy horsemen to great effect. Add them to a chariot charge to cause an autobreak on fear.
Edit: Also Tomb kings is one of the most balanced list ATM. Chariot lists are good yes, but Infantry lists are also viable, shooty armies are viable, monster heavy is viable. Really the only thing Tk's need is a re-jig of the magic items. As much as I love DOE it is stupidly overpowered.
Ah ha you finaly admit it...... damn i hate that thing.
I know Lizardmen, Tomb Kings, and definitely OK, but aren't most up to 7th edition?
...And Chaos Dwarfs.
Dark Elves are on the schedule already and from everything i've ever heard, they need an update pretty badly.
EDIT: Oh yeah, and all the chaos factions.
So yeah, pretty much everyone :P Wood elves were done very recently though, Uts.
So were Ogres but they're both technically 6th, so I'd wager they'll come last again.
Bretts could afford some rebalancing; Pegasus Knights probably should have been a 0-1 unit of no more than 4 or 5 knights. I can't see why having a Lord on a pegasus suddenly makes a flying circus army OK.
EDIT: Yes, the Lance Formation rules specifically state what their size is, as opposed to whatever the 'standard' size is. Arguments over its size in 7th are one reason I stopped reading Warseer past the rumor roundups. If I had to deal with that in person I simply wouldn't waste time playing against them.
There is a DE player out here who describes his army as being capable of one of two types of lists.
there are:
A lists) "Get over here so we can kick your butt..... wait! Oh, god no! Not like that, ahhhhhh we're dead"
or
B lists) "Stay there, we're coming over there to kick you're butt! Oh, wait, crap, we didn't count on that! AAAAGGGHHH!"
His exact words. From what I've seen it's pretty much the case.
-R
He's portrayed as this sort of jovial, jolly old guy who thinks that rotting apocolyptic plague is funny as hell... So basically he's a big ole fat bastard who thinks giving you a scorching case of the herp is a big laugh." ---Erandus
Gallery and Blog:
http://brushandputty.blogspot.com/
I mean, weren't Vampire Counts still stuck in 4ed before they decided to update it? That's pretty much crap, actually, I think that could be one of the denotative meanings of the word crap.
EDIT: I also really think it's crap that they decided to alter the online store just at the start of tournament season. It is literally like they want me to use e-Bay and other sites to buy my models.
Considering they have to update all the 40k armies plus all the fantasy armies on a rotating schedule, I think they actually do a moderately decent job of it. You have to considering all the playtesting time for each new army to make sure that it's not ricockulous or has truley massively unfair advantages over any other army. It would have to be playtested against all the other armies, tweaked, retested against all armies, tweaked, etc, etc. For every 40k army and every fantasy army. I can't even imagine trying to balance everything if ALL the armies were in a state of flux and re-write.
Thats a fuckin' lotta books to write and a lotta games to playtest. Now, I'm not gonna say if I think their playtesters are worth a shit, but I do think that while the pace seems glacial to those of us eagerly awaiting our book's release.... man thats a fucking lotta work. Plus there's LotR in the mix now. One fantasy book every couple months is about all we can hope for.
GW's in the business of selling models, when you get down to it. They need the model releases to be steady enough to keep the money flowing in, and I bet the GT's are a pretty good sales point for them. I honestly don't know if GW could afford to shut down GT's and re-do everything like that.
I hear what you're sayin' for sure, but i just dont know if the logistics of the business they're in would allow for something like that.
Nintendo Network ID: AzraelRose
DropBox invite link - get 500MB extra free.
Everyone got updated for 6th, which is still compatible with 7th. Hell, even Chaos Dwarfs got an official list in 6th Edition.
Also, I actually saw something intelligent said on Warseer. In reference to potential of a scaled-up WFB "Apocalypse"; "...before tournamnets and rules lawyers turned it into a science."
Agreed so hard. I loathe the profilernation of tournamnets.
...HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
You laugh, but it's true.
RE VC: having seen the new vamps played, I can safely say it's certainly a tough nut to crack, but it's not exactly scary for anyone with solid anti-magic. Besides, any army where you can invest 50% or more of your points in one unit (Blood Knights) has GOT to be fun to play against, right... right?
Page 100! New thread time! I claim this one.