I don't think psychoanalysing a country by its bear-killing traditions is a very good idea.
...the rest of the article was interesting.
Where does Metroid fall in this? :P
The Metroids consistantly sold better in the west. Why they game the license over to a western developer, I guess.
Metroids will always sell better in America because we're bigger on bioweapons. In fact, I just bought a few and let them loose in my neighbor's house the other day. That'll teach them to throw empty Pepsi cans in my recycle bin.
Drez on
Switch: SW-7690-2320-9238Steam/PSN/Xbox: Drezdar
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PharezonStruggle is an illusion.Victory is in the Qun.Registered Userregular
I remember reading one of the folks inside Capcom talking about Japanese gamers not enjoying high levels of difficulty... it was something that American gamers preferred over the Japanese. They were talking specifically about Devil May Cry 3, and why the difficulty was increased for the US release.
Yep, I remember reading the same thing.
This article is pretty neat, and it makes a lot of sense (still reading through it; only at the part where they're comparing uniforms). I have a question about this sense of freedom bit though (which seems to be the driving point at why the gamers in each culture are different) - Where does Metroid fall in this? :P
I remember reading one of the folks inside Capcom talking about Japanese gamers not enjoying high levels of difficulty... it was something that American gamers preferred over the Japanese. They were talking specifically about Devil May Cry 3, and why the difficulty was increased for the US release.
Which seems kinda odd since the most...probably ALL of the most difficult games I've ever played have come from Japan.
I also have the perception that the freakishly best players in the entire world are all of Japanese origin with their crazy Beatmania types. I mean we have our "pro" FPS guys but they're not so good as to where I'm shaking my head in disbelief.
More Japanese people than Americans seem to get motion sickness when playing FPS games so there are less FPS games in Japan.
But is that because they never play them in the first place because they do not enjoy them? So in turn they are not used to the camera and get sick?
This. The OP mentioned highschool games/dating sims, but are these games not translated into English because there's no audience or do they have no audience because they're not translated? I think the success of Persona three suggests a significant untapped audience in America.
That could go either way really. The better v. novel companies charge huge amounts of money if you want the rights to translate their stuff, which is a risk for any company translating them, dating sims and highschool games for the most part fall into the v. novel category as far as I know, and America doesn't really have a market willing to spend say $50 on what is really a glorified picture book. Then if you take into consideration that a lot of those games are pornographic in nature, many American retailers won't carry them. Persona3 falls into the JRPG category with elements of dating/highschool sims so I'm thinking it's an exception, since I don't think the last few SMT games did all that well.
I remember reading one of the folks inside Capcom talking about Japanese gamers not enjoying high levels of difficulty... it was something that American gamers preferred over the Japanese. They were talking specifically about Devil May Cry 3, and why the difficulty was increased for the US release.
Yep, I remember reading the same thing.
This article is pretty neat, and it makes a lot of sense (still reading through it; only at the part where they're comparing uniforms). I have a question about this sense of freedom bit though (which seems to be the driving point at why the gamers in each culture are different) - Where does Metroid fall in this? :P
Texas!
This is true. I'm a Texan, and I love metroid. Retro clearly chose the best place to make metroid.
I remember reading one of the folks inside Capcom talking about Japanese gamers not enjoying high levels of difficulty... it was something that American gamers preferred over the Japanese. They were talking specifically about Devil May Cry 3, and why the difficulty was increased for the US release.
Yep, I remember reading the same thing.
This article is pretty neat, and it makes a lot of sense (still reading through it; only at the part where they're comparing uniforms). I have a question about this sense of freedom bit though (which seems to be the driving point at why the gamers in each culture are different) - Where does Metroid fall in this? :P
Texas!
This is true. I'm a Texan, and I love metroid. Retro clearly chose the best place to make metroid.
You're in Texas too?
Cool.
Also, I WANT A NEW 2D METROID, DAMN IT!
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PharezonStruggle is an illusion.Victory is in the Qun.Registered Userregular
edited September 2007
That article was a fascinating read though.
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
I remember reading one of the folks inside Capcom talking about Japanese gamers not enjoying high levels of difficulty... it was something that American gamers preferred over the Japanese. They were talking specifically about Devil May Cry 3, and why the difficulty was increased for the US release.
Yep, I remember reading the same thing.
This article is pretty neat, and it makes a lot of sense (still reading through it; only at the part where they're comparing uniforms). I have a question about this sense of freedom bit though (which seems to be the driving point at why the gamers in each culture are different) - Where does Metroid fall in this? :P
Texas!
This is true. I'm a Texan, and I love metroid. Retro clearly chose the best place to make metroid.
I'm Texan at the moment but have loved Metroid when I was Californian.
And I want another 2D Metroid too, but let's save that for another thread.
I remember reading one of the folks inside Capcom talking about Japanese gamers not enjoying high levels of difficulty... it was something that American gamers preferred over the Japanese. They were talking specifically about Devil May Cry 3, and why the difficulty was increased for the US release.
Yep, I remember reading the same thing.
This article is pretty neat, and it makes a lot of sense (still reading through it; only at the part where they're comparing uniforms). I have a question about this sense of freedom bit though (which seems to be the driving point at why the gamers in each culture are different) - Where does Metroid fall in this? :P
Texas!
This is true. I'm a Texan, and I love metroid. Retro clearly chose the best place to make metroid.
I'm Texan at the moment but have loved Metroid when I was Californian.
And I want another 2D Metroid too, but let's save that for another thread.
It's most likely the texas-sized love for metroid that is clouding your memory. You think you loved metroid when you lived in california, but truthfully you didn't.
Y'know, it's a touchy subject, but I think there's an interesting discussion here.
I mean, I think when it comes down to it, storytelling in games is in a very adolescent period. What I mean, is we're still trying to define what storytelling in games is, and what it can be, while still creating a cohesive, powerful, and meaningful experience for the player. I think, largely, there's a different approach taken by each side: Eastern games preferring a more linear, guided, and controlled experience, something envisioned by the developer, resulting in a more cinematic experience, while Western games seem to be much more interested in creating a unique experience where the player takes a roll in experiencing a story he helps create in an established and cohesive world, which I feel results in a more unique expereince (as in, we're helping to define games as games, and movies as movies - it helps separate the two). Both ways are interesting, but I think we're going to see a larger difference in western and eastern games as we move forward, as both styles influence players, developers, and markets in unique ways.
Honestly, I do favor the western style. I won't say I'm not biased. I think that every time we remove the player from the driver's seat, and plop him inside of a cut scene, we remind him he's playing a game, and what he's involved in is clearly fiction. When we use cut scenes, we fail a little bit. And, it's one of the reasons I enjoy games like Half-Life 2, and Bioshock, so much: I think they're helping to pioneer many tools developers should be using to tell a story, and they help create a world that seems more "Real" in the sense the player isn't moved from a gameplay segment (where the player has control), and into a story segment (like a cutscene), and back again. By combining the two, I think we're creating cohesion, and I feel this cohesion results in a more meaningful game world to the player.
This style offers unique, and difficult obstacles, however. To help illustrate the unique limitations this creates, an example: A detective story could be much more difficult to tell through this form, because we really only follow the main character. And, while it's more realistic, we wouldn't have the kind of suspense that could be created at the game's climax by pulling the player out of the game, and into cutscenes, that may follow the antagonist. We maintain cohesion, but at the loss of excitement, and create a slower pace. I think Eastern games are much faster to compromise a 1st person perspective because of this. But, at the same time, they're creating tools that help avoid the negative impact of cutscenes. With games like Metal Gear, for example, the camera often finds itself looking down Snake, and I think, it's to soften the impact of cutscenes: They don't feel so unusual because you were already disconnected for snake: You aren't snake, snake is a character you're guiding, and your role is to get him to where he needs to be, to reach the next cutscene, and advance the story.
I guess there's pros and cons to each form, but it's fun to think about. I just hope this is somewhat readable, I've been up all night with friends, and I'm a little more than tired.
Beck on
Lucas's Franklin Badge reflected the lightning back!
I have never been a big fan of Japanese games. I find anime stupid though, so its obvious why. Of course, that doesn't apply to games made by Nintendo.
I remember reading one of the folks inside Capcom talking about Japanese gamers not enjoying high levels of difficulty... it was something that American gamers preferred over the Japanese. They were talking specifically about Devil May Cry 3, and why the difficulty was increased for the US release.
Yep, I remember reading the same thing.
This article is pretty neat, and it makes a lot of sense (still reading through it; only at the part where they're comparing uniforms). I have a question about this sense of freedom bit though (which seems to be the driving point at why the gamers in each culture are different) - Where does Metroid fall in this? :P
Texas!
This is true. I'm a Texan, and I love metroid. Retro clearly chose the best place to make metroid.
I'm Texan at the moment but have loved Metroid when I was Californian.
And I want another 2D Metroid too, but let's save that for another thread.
It's most likely the texas-sized love for metroid that is clouding your memory. You think you loved metroid when you lived in california, but truthfully you didn't.
I do not understand the appeal of Metroid Prime 2: Echoes, is there a Texan here who can explain it to me
Metroid Prime 2 didn't happen.
Metroid Prime 2 was a great game. At the absolute worst, it's more of the same of a game that we hadn't grown sick of yet. The Dark Samus fights were some of the most intense 1-player experiences I've had. It's easily the most difficult of the Primes, and I know it's an unpopular opinion, but I liked the Dark World a lot.
Also, FUN FACT: despite being somewhat famous for its oil, Texas' actual primary natural resource is Phazon. A Leviathon Seed crashed there in the 19th century, and, despite what some history books might tell you, control of this Leviathon was the actual conflict that instigated the Mexican War.
Honestly, I do favor the western style. I won't say I'm not biased. I think that every time we remove the player from the driver's seat, and plop him inside of a cut scene, we remind him he's playing a game, and what he's involved in is clearly fiction. When we use cut scenes, we fail a little bit. And, it's one of the reasons I enjoy games like Half-Life 2, and Bioshock, so much: I think they're helping to pioneer many tools developers should be using to tell a story, and they help create a world that seems more "Real" in the sense the player isn't moved from a gameplay segment (where the player has control), and into a story segment (like a cutscene), and back again. By combining the two, I think we're creating cohesion, and I feel this cohesion results in a more meaningful game world to the player.
I'm the reverse -- I've found nothing MORE immersion-breaking than the style used in Half Life and Bioshock. It's like at the very beginning of HL2, when Barney turns to greet you, and I look for a button or option to talk to him... and I can't. Because the devlopers have removed any way for the character to speak, express opinons, or interact with a person other than killing them.
It's an endless reminder that the charcter I'm playing as is at best an identity-free playing piece, and at worst an out-and-out sociopath. No damned fun.
On the other hand, I never had any problems playing Duke Nukem 3D, because it was fun to 'play as' Duke. He's such a cheesy badass. He gets you into an alien-as-kicking state of mind almost instantly.
I don't want more tools to 'trick' me into feeling immersed. I want characters and plots interesting enough be work immersing into on their own merits.
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Dusdais ashamed of this postSLC, UTRegistered Userregular
Honestly, I do favor the western style. I won't say I'm not biased. I think that every time we remove the player from the driver's seat, and plop him inside of a cut scene, we remind him he's playing a game, and what he's involved in is clearly fiction. When we use cut scenes, we fail a little bit. And, it's one of the reasons I enjoy games like Half-Life 2, and Bioshock, so much: I think they're helping to pioneer many tools developers should be using to tell a story, and they help create a world that seems more "Real" in the sense the player isn't moved from a gameplay segment (where the player has control), and into a story segment (like a cutscene), and back again. By combining the two, I think we're creating cohesion, and I feel this cohesion results in a more meaningful game world to the player.
I'm the reverse -- I've found nothing MORE immersion-breaking than the style used in Half Life and Bioshock. It's like at the very beginning of HL2, when Barney turns to greet you, and I look for a button or option to talk to him... and I can't. Because the devlopers have removed any way for the character to speak, express opinons, or interact with a person other than killing them.
You're weird. During HL2: Episode 1, I literally talked to Alyx twice. It was embarrassing, but I was surprised to find myself so immersed in what was going on that it felt almost natural to converse with the characters.
Honestly, I do favor the western style. I won't say I'm not biased. I think that every time we remove the player from the driver's seat, and plop him inside of a cut scene, we remind him he's playing a game, and what he's involved in is clearly fiction. When we use cut scenes, we fail a little bit. And, it's one of the reasons I enjoy games like Half-Life 2, and Bioshock, so much: I think they're helping to pioneer many tools developers should be using to tell a story, and they help create a world that seems more "Real" in the sense the player isn't moved from a gameplay segment (where the player has control), and into a story segment (like a cutscene), and back again. By combining the two, I think we're creating cohesion, and I feel this cohesion results in a more meaningful game world to the player.
I'm the reverse -- I've found nothing MORE immersion-breaking than the style used in Half Life and Bioshock. It's like at the very beginning of HL2, when Barney turns to greet you, and I look for a button or option to talk to him... and I can't. Because the devlopers have removed any way for the character to speak, express opinons, or interact with a person other than killing them.
It's an endless reminder that the charcter I'm playing as is at best an identity-free playing piece, and at worst an out-and-out sociopath. No damned fun.
On the other hand, I never had any problems playing Duke Nukem 3D, because it was fun to 'play as' Duke. He's such a cheesy badass. He gets you into an alien-as-kicking state of mind almost instantly.
I don't want more tools to 'trick' me into feeling immersed. I want characters and plots interesting enough be work immersing into on their own merits.
Oh, y'know, I actually kind of agree with you there. Maybe I should have been more clear. I love being able to interact in a lot of different ways with the world around me, and I think the silent hero is really, really wierd to play as (because he reminds me I'm just playing a game, because he's just an empty shell). It's more how, there aren't exactly cutscene pulling me out of Gordon's perspective.
Beck on
Lucas's Franklin Badge reflected the lightning back!
During HL2: Episode 1, I literally talked to Alyx twice. It was embarrassing, but I was surprised to find myself so immersed in what was going on that it felt almost natural to converse with the characters.
I'm glad I'm not the only one.
It's kind of interesting, actually, because some of the dialogue doesn't actually make a lot of sense unless you're mentally filling in one side of the conversation. Removed from context, they have a definite feeling of being one sided.
During HL2: Episode 1, I literally talked to Alyx twice. It was embarrassing, but I was surprised to find myself so immersed in what was going on that it felt almost natural to converse with the characters.
I'm glad I'm not the only one.
It's kind of interesting, actually, because some of the conversations don't actually make a lot of sense unless you're mentally filling in one side of the conversation. Removed from context, they have a definite feeling of being one side of a conversation.
On this note, is it normal to yell at enemies stuff like, "FUCK YEAH, I GOT A GRENADE! FOR YOU FACE!" or other taunts. Like, verbally, not just in your head?
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
edited September 2007
You guys are torturing me with this talk. I'm not on a net connection capable of getting my Steam games back in order.
During HL2: Episode 1, I literally talked to Alyx twice. It was embarrassing, but I was surprised to find myself so immersed in what was going on that it felt almost natural to converse with the characters.
I'm glad I'm not the only one.
It's kind of interesting, actually, because some of the conversations don't actually make a lot of sense unless you're mentally filling in one side of the conversation. Removed from context, they have a definite feeling of being one side of a conversation.
On this note, is it normal to yell at enemies stuff like, "FUCK YEAH, I GOT A GRENADE! FOR YOU FACE!" or other taunts. Like, verbally, not just in your head?
I've been known to do this. Not usually in such a verbose manner, but I do it.
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Magus`The fun has been DOUBLED!Registered Userregular
edited September 2007
I've been told one of the reasons that Metroid games are unpopular is due to the hero being a female.
You're weird. During HL2: Episode 1, I literally talked to Alyx twice. It was embarrassing, but I was surprised to find myself so immersed in what was going on that it felt almost natural to converse with the characters.
You talked... out loud to an imaginary person, and you call me weird?
(Confession: I talk back the screen sometimes, but that's for laughs, not because I've been tricked into forgetting it's a videogame.)
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Dusdais ashamed of this postSLC, UTRegistered Userregular
During HL2: Episode 1, I literally talked to Alyx twice. It was embarrassing, but I was surprised to find myself so immersed in what was going on that it felt almost natural to converse with the characters.
I'm glad I'm not the only one.
It's kind of interesting, actually, because some of the conversations don't actually make a lot of sense unless you're mentally filling in one side of the conversation. Removed from context, they have a definite feeling of being one side of a conversation.
On this note, is it normal to yell at enemies stuff like, "FUCK YEAH, I GOT A GRENADE! FOR YOU FACE!" or other taunts. Like, verbally, not just in your head?
I do that too, yea. Not just victorious bellowing, either. I felt remorse when you
I've been told one of the reasons that Metroid games are unpopular is due to the hero being a female.
This is probably untrue.
I hope it is.
I hope it's untrue. I was talking to someone a week or so ago about why Samus is one of the best hero(ine)s of our time. She doesn't have a dramatic, emotional past. I mean, she has a past, but she's all about kicking ass for the most part.
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Magus`The fun has been DOUBLED!Registered Userregular
This thread inspired me to buy a used GameCube today and a copy of Metroid Prime (and Eternal Darkness). Actually, the SSBB thread did, but I can be nice to your thread too.
How did Eternal Darkness fare in Japan, I wonder? Was it released there?
Posts
...the rest of the article was interesting.
The Metroids consistantly sold better in the west. Why they game the license over to a western developer, I guess.
Metroids will always sell better in America because we're bigger on bioweapons. In fact, I just bought a few and let them loose in my neighbor's house the other day. That'll teach them to throw empty Pepsi cans in my recycle bin.
Texas!
Which seems kinda odd since the most...probably ALL of the most difficult games I've ever played have come from Japan.
I also have the perception that the freakishly best players in the entire world are all of Japanese origin with their crazy Beatmania types. I mean we have our "pro" FPS guys but they're not so good as to where I'm shaking my head in disbelief.
That could go either way really. The better v. novel companies charge huge amounts of money if you want the rights to translate their stuff, which is a risk for any company translating them, dating sims and highschool games for the most part fall into the v. novel category as far as I know, and America doesn't really have a market willing to spend say $50 on what is really a glorified picture book. Then if you take into consideration that a lot of those games are pornographic in nature, many American retailers won't carry them. Persona3 falls into the JRPG category with elements of dating/highschool sims so I'm thinking it's an exception, since I don't think the last few SMT games did all that well.
This is true. I'm a Texan, and I love metroid. Retro clearly chose the best place to make metroid.
olol overgeneralizationism
Cool.
Also, I WANT A NEW 2D METROID, DAMN IT!
I'm Texan at the moment but have loved Metroid when I was Californian.
And I want another 2D Metroid too, but let's save that for another thread.
It's most likely the texas-sized love for metroid that is clouding your memory. You think you loved metroid when you lived in california, but truthfully you didn't.
I mean, I think when it comes down to it, storytelling in games is in a very adolescent period. What I mean, is we're still trying to define what storytelling in games is, and what it can be, while still creating a cohesive, powerful, and meaningful experience for the player. I think, largely, there's a different approach taken by each side: Eastern games preferring a more linear, guided, and controlled experience, something envisioned by the developer, resulting in a more cinematic experience, while Western games seem to be much more interested in creating a unique experience where the player takes a roll in experiencing a story he helps create in an established and cohesive world, which I feel results in a more unique expereince (as in, we're helping to define games as games, and movies as movies - it helps separate the two). Both ways are interesting, but I think we're going to see a larger difference in western and eastern games as we move forward, as both styles influence players, developers, and markets in unique ways.
Honestly, I do favor the western style. I won't say I'm not biased. I think that every time we remove the player from the driver's seat, and plop him inside of a cut scene, we remind him he's playing a game, and what he's involved in is clearly fiction. When we use cut scenes, we fail a little bit. And, it's one of the reasons I enjoy games like Half-Life 2, and Bioshock, so much: I think they're helping to pioneer many tools developers should be using to tell a story, and they help create a world that seems more "Real" in the sense the player isn't moved from a gameplay segment (where the player has control), and into a story segment (like a cutscene), and back again. By combining the two, I think we're creating cohesion, and I feel this cohesion results in a more meaningful game world to the player.
This style offers unique, and difficult obstacles, however. To help illustrate the unique limitations this creates, an example: A detective story could be much more difficult to tell through this form, because we really only follow the main character. And, while it's more realistic, we wouldn't have the kind of suspense that could be created at the game's climax by pulling the player out of the game, and into cutscenes, that may follow the antagonist. We maintain cohesion, but at the loss of excitement, and create a slower pace. I think Eastern games are much faster to compromise a 1st person perspective because of this. But, at the same time, they're creating tools that help avoid the negative impact of cutscenes. With games like Metal Gear, for example, the camera often finds itself looking down Snake, and I think, it's to soften the impact of cutscenes: They don't feel so unusual because you were already disconnected for snake: You aren't snake, snake is a character you're guiding, and your role is to get him to where he needs to be, to reach the next cutscene, and advance the story.
I guess there's pros and cons to each form, but it's fun to think about. I just hope this is somewhat readable, I've been up all night with friends, and I'm a little more than tired.
Metroid Prime 2 didn't happen.
killer7 addresses this issue in a blackly funny way.
Of course! It all makes sense now!
And Martin, Metroid Prime 2 didn't happen.
Excellent.
I feel relieved.
Metroid Prime 2 was a great game. At the absolute worst, it's more of the same of a game that we hadn't grown sick of yet. The Dark Samus fights were some of the most intense 1-player experiences I've had. It's easily the most difficult of the Primes, and I know it's an unpopular opinion, but I liked the Dark World a lot.
Also, FUN FACT: despite being somewhat famous for its oil, Texas' actual primary natural resource is Phazon. A Leviathon Seed crashed there in the 19th century, and, despite what some history books might tell you, control of this Leviathon was the actual conflict that instigated the Mexican War.
http://www.audioentropy.com/
The Dark World.
I'm the reverse -- I've found nothing MORE immersion-breaking than the style used in Half Life and Bioshock. It's like at the very beginning of HL2, when Barney turns to greet you, and I look for a button or option to talk to him... and I can't. Because the devlopers have removed any way for the character to speak, express opinons, or interact with a person other than killing them.
It's an endless reminder that the charcter I'm playing as is at best an identity-free playing piece, and at worst an out-and-out sociopath. No damned fun.
On the other hand, I never had any problems playing Duke Nukem 3D, because it was fun to 'play as' Duke. He's such a cheesy badass. He gets you into an alien-as-kicking state of mind almost instantly.
I don't want more tools to 'trick' me into feeling immersed. I want characters and plots interesting enough be work immersing into on their own merits.
You're weird. During HL2: Episode 1, I literally talked to Alyx twice. It was embarrassing, but I was surprised to find myself so immersed in what was going on that it felt almost natural to converse with the characters.
Oh, y'know, I actually kind of agree with you there. Maybe I should have been more clear. I love being able to interact in a lot of different ways with the world around me, and I think the silent hero is really, really wierd to play as (because he reminds me I'm just playing a game, because he's just an empty shell). It's more how, there aren't exactly cutscene pulling me out of Gordon's perspective.
I'm glad I'm not the only one.
It's kind of interesting, actually, because some of the dialogue doesn't actually make a lot of sense unless you're mentally filling in one side of the conversation. Removed from context, they have a definite feeling of being one sided.
I've been known to do this. Not usually in such a verbose manner, but I do it.
This is probably untrue.
I hope it is.
Steam Profile | Signature art by Alexandra 'Lexxy' Douglass
You talked... out loud to an imaginary person, and you call me weird?
(Confession: I talk back the screen sometimes, but that's for laughs, not because I've been tricked into forgetting it's a videogame.)
I do that too, yea. Not just victorious bellowing, either. I felt remorse when you
By the way, japan: the vent?
this is untrue.
I hope it's untrue. I was talking to someone a week or so ago about why Samus is one of the best hero(ine)s of our time. She doesn't have a dramatic, emotional past. I mean, she has a past, but she's all about kicking ass for the most part.
What's wrong with MP2?
Steam Profile | Signature art by Alexandra 'Lexxy' Douglass
How did Eternal Darkness fare in Japan, I wonder? Was it released there?