To find a safe haven from the drug-filled orgies that I could never find, Virginia Tech had dorms with a few floors reserved for the WELL, which was supposedly substance-free and advocated some spiritual wellness stuff. I imagine these sorts of programs are found on other campuses.
Yeah, we have a couple halls dedicated to "wellness" as well. Mere possession of cigarettes (let alone smoking them) is grounds for eviction. Same for alcohol, of course.
The amusing part is that despite this, they are included in the "pool" that people are randomly assigned to (if they aren't full from requests). I actually knew of a smoker who got placed randomly in such a hall. It did not end well. Though eventually they "forced" him to move to a hall where cigarettes weren't forbidden (smoking is forbidden in all of them), rather than evicting him. He was crushed.
And yes, he had marked that he was a smoker on his application (it asks). They still put him there. Idiots.
Anyway, the point is that one need not go to a Christian school to get away from the college atmosphere shown in movie cliches. For one, it doesn't really exist in most places anyway, and two most schools offer housing specifically for people who aren't interested in the party experience.
As for people having sex in front of you, grab your balls and tell them to stop. If they don't, you have plenty of options of both the official and "just be a dickhead" variety to put a stop to it. It only happens if you let it.
One summer I tried to date a girl who went to BJU. Didn't turn out too well. She found out that I'm a lazy Catholic and not baptist, tried to convert me, and rejected my advances pretty handily. Also I found a pamphlet in the bathroom (we worked together) "Are Catholics Christian?"
Turns out the next summer when she worked there she got knocked up by some dude who wasn't religious at all
Her stories about the university were crazy. If you get in trouble at all you get 'socialed' which means you can't be seen with a member of the opposite sex in public at all
One summer I tried to date a girl who went to BJU. Didn't turn out too well. She found out that I'm a lazy Catholic and not baptist, tried to convert me, and rejected my advances pretty handily. Also I found a pamphlet in the bathroom (we worked together) "Are Catholics Christian?"
Turns out the next summer when she worked there she got knocked up by some dude who wasn't religious at all
One summer I tried to date a girl who went to BJU. Didn't turn out too well. She found out that I'm a lazy Catholic and not baptist, tried to convert me, and rejected my advances pretty handily. Also I found a pamphlet in the bathroom (we worked together) "Are Catholics Christian?"
Turns out the next summer when she worked there she got knocked up by some dude who wasn't religious at all
Ahahaha!
At least he wasn't Catholic.
Man they hate Catholics. I google'd it when I was trying to date her and found letters written by one of the Bob Jones's about how it was good that one of the Popes died and how he'd burn in hell etc. I also found out they didn't allow interracial dating on campus until like 1997 or something. Nutso
Oh hey, I was actually wondering what opinion Oral Roberts University students have of Oral Roberts, especially in light of the recent problems.
Well, it's a mixed bag, but with few exceptions, the students, alumni, and faculty all want to see the school stay open, but with much more of a focus on the people there currently or in the past. "The people" have always been the school's best export and its best asset, and it's time to focus on them again. The school and the ministry have always been tied to one another (Resident Advisors and other student leaders required to help out at ministry events, for example, or requiring students to attend "revivals" instead of classes); by and large students are sick of the incestuous relationship between Oral's two brainchildren and would like for them to finally split up (some felt this way before the scandal, some didn't).
I think just about everyone had at least some hint of what was going on, but I doubt many or any knew the full picture; there weren't enough straws on any one camel's back to break it, at least until the lawsuit file came up. Now everyone's speaking up because this is a great opportunity to remove the favoritism and the "this is my kingdom" mentality from affecting the administration. There's a lot of cleaning up to do, but most everyone's glad that the dirty laundry's getting aired and straightened out.
How exactly am I less of an adult because I made the decision to live my life up to a certain standard and go to a college that shares that standard? Is seeing people have sex while you study some kind of watershed moment for adulthood? My social skills and exposure to different world views were already trained in this wonderful place called high school. I'm not preparing to be an adult, I am one, which is why I've chosen to go to a college that will educate me in my chosen field while helping me live up to the standard I've set for myself.
One of the most important properties of being an adult is autonomy. In fact, it's the basis on which the common understanding of responsibility is built (even our laws assume a certain level of autonomy for adults) - including moral and spiritual responsibility. In the case of the state, a person isn't rewarded with the full responsibilities and perks of citizenship until such a time as a person is shown to have a reasonable level of autonomy; children, for instance, aren't full citizens in the way adults are. The most important reason is because they do not hold the requisite level of autonomy required for responsibility (which is itself needed for all the actions and duties being a citizen entails).
In the case of the Christian faith, there is a very strong tradition (inherited in many regards from the Hebrew tradition) that only those with the proper level of autonomy and responsibility are to be held to the highest standard. Indeed, this is reflected even within the hierarchy of the Church itself; the Patriarch of Constantinople, for instance, would be held to a higher spiritual standard than a five year old child from Athens. Due to the nature of the office of Patriarch (primus inter pares), as well as the fact that to be Patriarch one must be a member of the episcopate, there is a naturally separate and more rigorous standard of spiritual wellbeing than would be applied to a child.
This holds true even for Protestant denominations, including ones who have abolished the priesthood and episcopate. Your pastor will be held to a higher standard than you will be, or the kids in sunday school. The pastor, being an adult, and having been educated in a specific way not necessarily shared by other members of the congregation is expected to hold to a higher or more rigorous standard of spiritual and moral purity than the average person. Most people accept this sort of hierarchical organization without even acknowledging it.
Now, in the case of Bob Jones' University, and the rules associated with it (as well as other like-minded institutions), you have a set of regulations that is specifically tailored to rob the autonomy and thus responsibility of the students. What does that mean? Well, instead of making them 'more moral' or shielding them from dangerous influences, the regulations remove the incredibly important property of adulthood from the student. In this way, the students are left to be treated like underdeveloped, uninformed, uneducated children. Indeed, prohibitions on certain types of media or restrictions on multi-sex meetings or co-ed dorms are the kind of restrictions one would place on children. An adult would presumedly know what types of media he or she enjoyed, and either consume or avoid it accordingly. An adult would know how to behave around members of the opposite gender, and would have an understanding of what sort of conduct (sexual or otherwise) would be appropriate.
The rules of BJU and institutions like it do far more harm than good. They don't create dedicate, observant spiritual warriors. They create a bunch of spiritual children, who don't know and can't control their desires to such a degree that they can't be trusted to watch movies rating PG-13 or above. Perhaps the most insidious thing that this does is utterly degrade the standard level that all Christians are held to. When you are in Sunday school, you teach the children concepts in simple ways, so that their relatively simple minds can understand, don't you? Rather, you don't engage in discourses on the Arian Heresy during Sunday school, do you? No, of course not. You outline the basic and most easily graspable (and in many cases, most important) tenets of the faith.
Well, when all you have within your ranks are spiritual children, the faith itself turns into a simplified caricature of itself. Instead of having congregants discuss the significance of the fabled Q-source and its implications for readings of the Gospels, or the meaning of the Sermon on the Mount in light of Augustine, you get 10-minute power point presentations or sermons on childish topics: like why it's immoral to read Harry Potter, or why Left Behind is an accurate portrayal of (a rather childish conception of) the end of days.
In short, those stupid, batshit rules do nothing but undermine a rich and historied faith, and lower the standards bar to such a level as to make it all meaningless.
How exactly am I less of an adult because I made the decision to live my life up to a certain standard and go to a college that shares that standard? Is seeing people have sex while you study some kind of watershed moment for adulthood? My social skills and exposure to different world views were already trained in this wonderful place called high school. I'm not preparing to be an adult, I am one, which is why I've chosen to go to a college that will educate me in my chosen field while helping me live up to the standard I've set for myself.
Eh. I think the others are being too hard on you. If you truly believe evangelical Christianity is true and your eternal soul hangs in the balance, I can understand your decision to go to a place that will act as "guard rails on your path to Christ" or whatever.
Similarly, I like to write with a writing group, which enforces occasionally arbitrary rules, because they help motivate me and support me.
Rules can be comforting. It's a crazy world out there, and I think many adults—if not most adults—take comfort in someone telling them what to do and when to do it.
I think the real question is: did you decide that evangelical Christianity is true on your own, or becuase you were following someone else's rules—your parents or your pastors? If you made this decision with complete autonomy, knowing the alternatives, then I will agree you're an "adult" (one whom I strongly disagree with). But if you're an evangelical Christian because you've never been outside a homeschool bubble and questioned your beliefs, I'm not so sure.
Actually, I think the real question is: how are you able to access Penny Arcade forums at Bob Jones University? Don't they have an Internet Gestapo or something?
How exactly am I less of an adult because I made the decision to live my life up to a certain standard and go to a college that shares that standard? Is seeing people have sex while you study some kind of watershed moment for adulthood?
No, but acting like seeing that would be a huge deal and ruin your ability to ever succeed in life is pretty immature.
edit: oh, forget the above, saggio put it better than I could. If you need the rules enforced because you fear going bad without them, you aren't within fifty miles of adulthood. Unfortunately a disturbing fraction of the religious think exactly this; their moral compass is entirely external and they'll cheerfully admit that they'd likely do terrible things out of self-interest if they weren't being controlled sufficiently. That's what frightens and angers me about religious people, not the anti-science stuff and the misogyny. Those are only symptoms of a societally-encouraged lack of moral fibre.
Until this thread I didn't even know that "Bob Jones University" was an actual university. On my campus it's common slang to say that a girl / guy went to "Bob Jones University (BJU) if they were exceptional at oral sex.
I don't know what that says about my campus, though.
One summer I tried to date a girl who went to BJU. Didn't turn out too well. She found out that I'm a lazy Catholic and not baptist, tried to convert me, and rejected my advances pretty handily. Also I found a pamphlet in the bathroom (we worked together) "Are Catholics Christian?"
Turns out the next summer when she worked there she got knocked up by some dude who wasn't religious at all
Ahahaha!
At least he wasn't Catholic.
Man they hate Catholics. I google'd it when I was trying to date her and found letters written by one of the Bob Jones's about how it was good that one of the Popes died and how he'd burn in hell etc. I also found out they didn't allow interracial dating on campus until like 1997 or something. Nutso
Word, in my hometown we have a big evangelical population...and they have tried to convert me on more than one occasion.
Like three nights ago my roommate had sex in the top bunk while I was asleep...that was a first.
One summer I tried to date a girl who went to BJU. Didn't turn out too well. She found out that I'm a lazy Catholic and not baptist, tried to convert me, and rejected my advances pretty handily. Also I found a pamphlet in the bathroom (we worked together) "Are Catholics Christian?"
Turns out the next summer when she worked there she got knocked up by some dude who wasn't religious at all
Ahahaha!
At least he wasn't Catholic.
Man they hate Catholics. I google'd it when I was trying to date her and found letters written by one of the Bob Jones's about how it was good that one of the Popes died and how he'd burn in hell etc. I also found out they didn't allow interracial dating on campus until like 1997 or something. Nutso
Word, in my hometown we have a big evangelical population...and they have tried to convert me on more than one occasion.
Like three nights ago my roommate had sex in the top bunk while I was asleep...that was a first.
I swear to god im never living in a shared room again, unless it's a quad/mini apartment. I never had a fornicator, but sharing a small room is pointless and annoying after you've done it once.
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
One summer I tried to date a girl who went to BJU. Didn't turn out too well. She found out that I'm a lazy Catholic and not baptist, tried to convert me, and rejected my advances pretty handily. Also I found a pamphlet in the bathroom (we worked together) "Are Catholics Christian?"
Turns out the next summer when she worked there she got knocked up by some dude who wasn't religious at all
Ahahaha!
At least he wasn't Catholic.
Man they hate Catholics. I google'd it when I was trying to date her and found letters written by one of the Bob Jones's about how it was good that one of the Popes died and how he'd burn in hell etc. I also found out they didn't allow interracial dating on campus until like 1997 or something. Nutso
Word, in my hometown we have a big evangelical population...and they have tried to convert me on more than one occasion.
Like three nights ago my roommate had sex in the top bunk while I was asleep...that was a first.
I swear to god im never living in a shared room again, unless it's a quad/mini apartment. I never had a fornicator, but sharing a small room is pointless and annoying after you've done it once.
One summer I tried to date a girl who went to BJU. Didn't turn out too well. She found out that I'm a lazy Catholic and not baptist, tried to convert me, and rejected my advances pretty handily. Also I found a pamphlet in the bathroom (we worked together) "Are Catholics Christian?"
Turns out the next summer when she worked there she got knocked up by some dude who wasn't religious at all
Ahahaha!
At least he wasn't Catholic.
Man they hate Catholics. I google'd it when I was trying to date her and found letters written by one of the Bob Jones's about how it was good that one of the Popes died and how he'd burn in hell etc. I also found out they didn't allow interracial dating on campus until like 1997 or something. Nutso
Word, in my hometown we have a big evangelical population...and they have tried to convert me on more than one occasion.
Like three nights ago my roommate had sex in the top bunk while I was asleep...that was a first.
I swear to god im never living in a shared room again, unless it's a quad/mini apartment. I never had a fornicator, but sharing a small room is pointless and annoying after you've done it once.
I swear to god im never living in a shared room again, unless it's a quad/mini apartment. I never had a fornicator, but sharing a small room is pointless and annoying after you've done it once.
Everyone should move off-campus after a year. Everyone. I waited until junior year and I still wish I'd done it earlier.
Kinda scary how parents are so willing to cripple their kid's futures
That's just the thing. These parents don't believe that they are crippling their kids by sending them there. For instance, my ex's family believed that it was the best thing for her. The parents are hyper religious and believed that one of those universities would be the best place she could get an education and good religious education (as well as a husband, probably).
The sad part is their academics were WAY under par.
To each their own. I can only hope these kind of outliers stay on the fringe.
A good number of them are working in the Executive branch at the moment.
And don't think all religious schools are as crazy or idiotic as some of these unacreditted behemoths. Jesuits, for instance, aren't insane and offer excellent educations.
Brandeis University.
Orthodox Jewish school thats respected on the secular level.
I don't know of any Christian equivalent though.
Jesuit schools. My sister went to Marquette and a cousin went to Loyola (there are many others, just not within a 2 hour drive from my home). Either of them are well respected and rank highly in one department or the other. Loyola has a great medical program, IIRC, and Marquette's pretty good at engineering. Also, basketball.
My alma mater, Bethel College in Kansas, is really good. We have a really high percentage of graduates who go on to get doctorates. And no drinking on campus. And they have rules about premarital sex, saying basically don't do it cause it can lead to problems. But they don't do much about it. Only 2 of the dorms have rules about intervisitation and thats just after midnight (2 on the weekends.) They ,ay have removed intervis entirely by now. A lot of it they just keep around to placate older board members.
After all if you want to do all of that you can just go to Goshen. There you can agree to live under the conduct policy or abide with the policy. I've never known was Bethel the GC one before the merger or was the Hesston?
locomotiveman on
aquabat wrote:
I actually worked at work on Saturday. Also I went out on a date with a real life girl.
I swear to god im never living in a shared room again, unless it's a quad/mini apartment. I never had a fornicator, but sharing a small room is pointless and annoying after you've done it once.
Everyone should move off-campus after a year. Everyone. I waited until junior year and I still wish I'd done it earlier.
I waited till junior year too, but I chose the roommate/"friend" from hell. Almost made me want to go back to the dorms.
I'm on my own in a different apartment now though, and pretty much everyone here is a friendly student.
I swear to god im never living in a shared room again, unless it's a quad/mini apartment. I never had a fornicator, but sharing a small room is pointless and annoying after you've done it once.
Everyone should move off-campus after a year. Everyone. I waited until junior year and I still wish I'd done it earlier.
Nice thing is that everything is offcampus after the first year. But I like my current roommate, unfortunately we got stuck with the smallest dorm on campus, but we have alot of fun together.
How exactly am I less of an adult because I made the decision to live my life up to a certain standard and go to a college that shares that standard? Is seeing people have sex while you study some kind of watershed moment for adulthood? My social skills and exposure to different world views were already trained in this wonderful place called high school. I'm not preparing to be an adult, I am one, which is why I've chosen to go to a college that will educate me in my chosen field while helping me live up to the standard I've set for myself.
Now, in the case of Bob Jones' University, and the rules associated with it (as well as other like-minded institutions), you have a set of regulations that is specifically tailored to rob the autonomy and thus responsibility of the students. What does that mean? Well, instead of making them 'more moral' or shielding them from dangerous influences, the regulations remove the incredibly important property of adulthood from the student. In this way, the students are left to be treated like underdeveloped, uninformed, uneducated children. Indeed, prohibitions on certain types of media or restrictions on multi-sex meetings or co-ed dorms are the kind of restrictions one would place on children. An adult would presumedly know what types of media he or she enjoyed, and either consume or avoid it accordingly. An adult would know how to behave around members of the opposite gender, and would have an understanding of what sort of conduct (sexual or otherwise) would be appropriate.
The rules of BJU and institutions like it do far more harm than good. They don't create dedicate, observant spiritual warriors. They create a bunch of spiritual children, who don't know and can't control their desires to such a degree that they can't be trusted to watch movies rating PG-13 or above. Perhaps the most insidious thing that this does is utterly degrade the standard level that all Christians are held to. When you are in Sunday school, you teach the children concepts in simple ways, so that their relatively simple minds can understand, don't you? Rather, you don't engage in discourses on the Arian Heresy during Sunday school, do you? No, of course not. You outline the basic and most easily graspable (and in many cases, most important) tenets of the faith.
Well, when all you have within your ranks are spiritual children, the faith itself turns into a simplified caricature of itself. Instead of having congregants discuss the significance of the fabled Q-source and its implications for readings of the Gospels, or the meaning of the Sermon on the Mount in light of Augustine, you get 10-minute power point presentations or sermons on childish topics: like why it's immoral to read Harry Potter, or why Left Behind is an accurate portrayal of (a rather childish conception of) the end of days.
In short, those stupid, batshit rules do nothing but undermine a rich and historied faith, and lower the standards bar to such a level as to make it all meaningless.
I hope that answered your question.
The problem with this logic is that the people attending such a school are those that need to be reminded of these rules and that the rules are expected to be enforced on a daily basis. Similar to what you may see in a stereotypical catholic school where the nuns slap students wrists with a ruler because they were talking.
Those that make the choice (and I say choice because there are those who are probably forced by their parents to attend, which is a whole different matter) to attend BJU read those rules and understand them, knowing that they are rules which they would personally follow themselves anyway. They choose this school because it fits the already chosen lifestyle that they have picked and wish to surround themselves with people who share the same beliefs and standards that they do.
These rules do not rob any autonomy from these people as it was their choice to go to a school with such rules, and knew of them before they chose to attend. If they desired to have the autonomy to do whatever they wanted, then they could have chosen a different college.
Why do they have the rules? Because it enforces that the people who choose to attend that school have like-minded ideas of what is acceptable behavior. The rules are not there to shape them into what the school deems is a "Christian", but rather they are there so that Christians can see the rules and find that this school fits the lifestyle they are choosing to live.
The idea is not to treat them as children, but rather to help them by placing a deterrent against those who are likely to have a lifestyle that is unacceptable to the people who would attend the school. If I, as a Christian, think that it is not right for someone to have sex before they are married, I do not want to get stuck in a room with someone who is committing that sin. With a rule in place, it's something I do not have to worry about. It's not restricting me, because it's a choice I've already made. It's liberating in that I do not have to worry about walking in on a naked woman when I am trying to keep myself pure for my future wife. (I'm using myself as an example here, I am not attending or planning to attend BJU and I'm already married)
Rules are what give society structure. Like-minded people are going to congregate together. Once they have found each other, they are going to try and protect themselves by placing LAWS (another word for rules) that follow their ideas so that people who do not share their ideology are less likely to disrupt their lifestyle.
People who think it's ok to go around and rape and kill others are not going to fit into a society that thinks it is wrong to do so, to give an exaggerated and non-religious example.
The idea that we should live without rules or laws is a ridiculous one. The ideal thing to find a place that has similar ideology to yourself (which given this board's reaction to the rules of BJU, it is not a place for most here) and place yourself there. For some, BJU is an excellent choice. For others, it's restricting because they find that the rules do not comply with their chosen lifestyle. Neither is incorrect, so to speak; but if it's not your cup of tea, don't drink it.
ArcSyn has a point. It's not about having to keep yourself in check, it's about wanting to be around other people who follow those same rules.
That is what you mean, right?
Exactly. If I hold those rules to my lifestyle already, I want to be around others who follow the same rules. A school with those rules is likely to attract others who have the same lifestyle as myself.
Same deal: If I don't care and don't hold any rules to my lifestyle, then I can find a college with no rules (or live off-campus) and find people there who have the same lifestyle as myself.
You can still be around people who follow similar rules at normal colleges. The "wellness" halls should guarantee that you can find people with similar rules. It isn't like the college frat guy or whatever college cliche is going to be having sex and drinking booze in class.
Of course, all that shit flies out the window when a student's parents coerce them into attending such a school, but then at least you acknowledged that.
Still, though, the way you bandied around Animal House-esque stereotypes as the norm for non-fundie colleges speaks to your inexperience: that shit isn't nearly as widespread as the admissions department of BJU-type schools would like to tell parents. I lived in on-campus housing in a state university for four semesters; I had four different roommates in that time, and the worst fault of my worst roommate was his tendency to stay up until "late" turned to "early" playing World of Warcraft.
Also, not all the crazy rules in these kind of colleges govern behavior that actually affects others, making your point about wanting to surround yourself with people who follow the same rules kind of moot. Censoring internet access, for example, doesn't affect anyone but the person trying to access the restricted information. (sidenote: restricted information at a learning institution? what the hell?) I won't even get into the institutionalized misogyny with the much-laughed-at "skirts-only rule", but then, that's a symptom, not the disease. But you get my point. There's a line where "trying to make sure that only people who would behave respectively even consider the school in the first place" turns into "trying to make sure that the people in this institution never question the doctrine we're trying to instill into them," and BJU, among other such colleges, goes way over that line.
And syrion makes a great point out of Daedalus' post.
Despite how stereotypical it is to have your roommate have sex while you're in the same room, or come home so drunk he pees on your bed with you in it (I knew a guy who had this happen to him) or you get stuck with a guy who smokes all the time and you can't stand it, we all know people or have heard the horror stories.
Even though campuses may have "wellness" dorms, they still may not meet the satisfaction of those looking for a college with a more strict rule set that will make sure that they won't have to deal with such things, and BJU is there to fit the bill. A bit on the extreme side of the bill? Sure. But there are extremes on either side and everything inbetween. If it wasn't BJU, it'd be another college, like Pensacola (PCC) in Florida.
The trouble with the beej and similar (note to the defensive among you: the following does not apply to all religious colleges, so shut the hell up) is that its not just the dorm code that's problematic; of far more concern is the constant spin put on the courses, the frequent outright misinformation, and of course, the near-to-complete absence of coverage on a number of topics, particularly human health and the natural sciences. Also of concern is the rigour of the academics at these places; ie, there isn't much.
So my friend got raped at a Christian university with a strict morality code. She reported it to the school rather than to the police and evidently the governing body of the school dealt with things by telling the boy he couldn't be within so many feet of her ever again. No mention of police action, no offer of support or counseling for her beyond that.
Meanwhile, the school's crime statistics state that about 1 or 2 incidences of sexual assault happen on campus per year, which to me seems absurdly low. They'd likely attribute the fact to the school's morality code (no women and men allowed in the same room with the door closed and a curfew, among other things), however, and for all I know that's a reasonable explanation and my friend was just unlucky.
hence that BJ University wasn't accredited until, what, last year, and by an accreditation agency that was on the DOE's shit list until the Bush Administration came along.
So my friend got raped at a Christian university with a strict morality code. She reported it to the school rather than to the police and evidently the governing body of the school dealt with things by telling the boy he couldn't be within so many feet of her ever again. No mention of police action, no offer of support or counseling for her beyond that.
You realise that's illegal, right? And that it makes the school an accessory?
Meanwhile, the school's crime statistics state that about 1 or 2 incidences of sexual assault happen on campus per year, which to me seems absurdly low. They'd likely attribute the fact to the school's morality code (no women and men allowed in the same room with the door closed and a curfew, among other things), however, and for all I know that's a reasonable explanation and my friend was just unlucky.
I'm willing to bet its a load of bullshit, and that the stats aren't much lower (accounting for, on the plus side, less booze, and on the minus side, patriarchy-lawl), and that stories like your friend's one serve to keep the report-rate that low
Meanwhile, the school's crime statistics state that about 1 or 2 incidences of sexual assault happen on campus per year, which to me seems absurdly low. They'd likely attribute the fact to the school's morality code (no women and men allowed in the same room with the door closed and a curfew, among other things), however, and for all I know that's a reasonable explanation and my friend was just unlucky.
I'm willing to bet its a load of bullshit, and that the stats aren't much lower (accounting for, on the plus side, less booze, and on the minus side, patriarchy-lawl), and that stories like your friend's one serve to keep the report-rate that low
Yeah, I'd imagine that those "crime statistics" only count the incidents that are, you know, reported to the police. I'd imagine that policies (like dorm rules) that effectively limit opportunity would help quite a bit as well, obviously, but convincing victims not to go to the police probably has a lot more to do with it.
I'm pretty sure this trick is nothing new, just that it fell out of favor with most mainstream schools a while back when we realized that women were people.
How exactly am I less of an adult because I made the decision to live my life up to a certain standard and go to a college that shares that standard? Is seeing people have sex while you study some kind of watershed moment for adulthood? My social skills and exposure to different world views were already trained in this wonderful place called high school. I'm not preparing to be an adult, I am one, which is why I've chosen to go to a college that will educate me in my chosen field while helping me live up to the standard I've set for myself.
The fact that you are incapable of understanding reality, which is to say dorm life in state schools, would imply that this isn't actually the case.
The 'worst' thing that you would probably consider which happened to me during my 2 years of living on campus in a school that is infamous for its party nature (it was the inspiration for Animal House, although everything really died after the 60's) was that I had a gay roomie my sophmore year who liked to kiss other guys. (oh noes!) It was a wonderful architectural school that Bucky taught at for most of his life and I got a great education out of it while living to my own moral code. One that is likely just as rigorous as your own. And here's the kicker, I'm not an exceptional rarity.
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
Meanwhile, the school's crime statistics state that about 1 or 2 incidences of sexual assault happen on campus per year, which to me seems absurdly low. They'd likely attribute the fact to the school's morality code (no women and men allowed in the same room with the door closed and a curfew, among other things), however, and for all I know that's a reasonable explanation and my friend was just unlucky.
I'm willing to bet its a load of bullshit, and that the stats aren't much lower (accounting for, on the plus side, less booze, and on the minus side, patriarchy-lawl), and that stories like your friend's one serve to keep the report-rate that low
Yeah, I'd imagine that those "crime statistics" only count the incidents that are, you know, reported to the police. I'd imagine that policies (like dorm rules) that effectively limit opportunity would help quite a bit as well, obviously, but convincing victims not to go to the police probably has a lot more to do with it.
I'm pretty sure this trick is nothing new, just that it fell out of favor with most mainstream schools a while back when we realized that women were people.
I looked up the figures, for anyone interested. 2004 was the year of her incident, so she would be the "1" if one assumes honesty on the part of the university.
Cat: I strongly suspected what you're telling me, and I'm sure the girl and anyone else she confided in did as well. Despite the improper manner in which the case was handled, though, she didn't seek further action and I didn't see fit to urge her on because it simply wasn't my place to do so.
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KalTorakOne way or another, they all end up inthe Undercity.Registered Userregular
edited December 2007
Oh come on. If the rules say that people of the opposite sex can't be alone together and provocative clothing isn't allowed, then of course there won't be any sexual assault/rape. It's just impossible! Those are the main causes of sexual assault - putting too much pressure and temptation on the male students. Just like the way burqas have completely eliminated rape and sexual assault in the Muslim world.
You know, that statement that no hate crimes were reported and hence have not been included sort of makes me wonder why they bothered to include homicide, non-negligent manslaughter, negligent manslaughter, non-forcible sex offenses, motor vehicle theft, and arson.
You know, that statement that no hate crimes were reported and hence have not been included sort of makes me wonder why they bothered to include homicide, non-negligent manslaughter, negligent manslaughter, non-forcible sex offenses, motor vehicle theft, and arson.
They're saying that a second table would usually follow the one they wrote up to specify which, if any, of the reported crimes were racially motivated in nature. Since there were no hate crimes, apparently, they thought they should make a note stating that much in place of a table with nothing but 0's in it.
The logic behind not presenting a hate crime table would only apply to the main tables if no crimes had occurred at all.
Side note: Figuring it wouldn't cause me any trouble at all, I anonymously e-mailed the Boston Globe a news tip about what my friend said had happened to her with a link to the numbers on Gordon's site which, even by themselves, should warrant investigation. I didn't give them her name, of course. I mean if there really is something going on, they likely wouldn't need it. All it should take is finding a student who was raped in a 0 year or finding two students who were raped in a 1 year to disprove the numbers, right?
Given my distance from the event itself and the fact that I fell out with the girl months ago, I doubt there's anything else I can possibly do.
How exactly am I less of an adult because I made the decision to live my life up to a certain standard and go to a college that shares that standard? Is seeing people have sex while you study some kind of watershed moment for adulthood? My social skills and exposure to different world views were already trained in this wonderful place called high school. I'm not preparing to be an adult, I am one, which is why I've chosen to go to a college that will educate me in my chosen field while helping me live up to the standard I've set for myself.
The fact that you are incapable of understanding reality, which is to say dorm life in state schools, would imply that this isn't actually the case.
The 'worst' thing that you would probably consider which happened to me during my 2 years of living on campus in a school that is infamous for its party nature (it was the inspiration for Animal House, although everything really died after the 60's) was that I had a gay roomie my sophmore year who liked to kiss other guys. (oh noes!) It was a wonderful architectural school that Bucky taught at for most of his life and I got a great education out of it while living to my own moral code. One that is likely just as rigorous as your own. And here's the kicker, I'm not an exceptional rarity.
Dont patronize me. I understand dorm life in 'state schools' (even though I live in Canada, thanks for that assumption). Why cant you understand that my Christian school provides a better place for me to receive my education?
I never debated the 'rigor' of different moral codes, I just said that most Christian schools provide a better place to live out Christian standards. I dont know why you're taking umbrage.
Oh, and thanks for assuming that I'm a homophobic asshole, that was nice.
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Those things don't really happen that much in dorms, with, of course, a few notable exceptions.
Yeah, we have a couple halls dedicated to "wellness" as well. Mere possession of cigarettes (let alone smoking them) is grounds for eviction. Same for alcohol, of course.
The amusing part is that despite this, they are included in the "pool" that people are randomly assigned to (if they aren't full from requests). I actually knew of a smoker who got placed randomly in such a hall. It did not end well. Though eventually they "forced" him to move to a hall where cigarettes weren't forbidden (smoking is forbidden in all of them), rather than evicting him. He was crushed.
And yes, he had marked that he was a smoker on his application (it asks). They still put him there. Idiots.
Anyway, the point is that one need not go to a Christian school to get away from the college atmosphere shown in movie cliches. For one, it doesn't really exist in most places anyway, and two most schools offer housing specifically for people who aren't interested in the party experience.
As for people having sex in front of you, grab your balls and tell them to stop. If they don't, you have plenty of options of both the official and "just be a dickhead" variety to put a stop to it. It only happens if you let it.
Turns out the next summer when she worked there she got knocked up by some dude who wasn't religious at all
Her stories about the university were crazy. If you get in trouble at all you get 'socialed' which means you can't be seen with a member of the opposite sex in public at all
Ahahaha!
At least he wasn't Catholic.
Man they hate Catholics. I google'd it when I was trying to date her and found letters written by one of the Bob Jones's about how it was good that one of the Popes died and how he'd burn in hell etc. I also found out they didn't allow interracial dating on campus until like 1997 or something. Nutso
I think just about everyone had at least some hint of what was going on, but I doubt many or any knew the full picture; there weren't enough straws on any one camel's back to break it, at least until the lawsuit file came up. Now everyone's speaking up because this is a great opportunity to remove the favoritism and the "this is my kingdom" mentality from affecting the administration. There's a lot of cleaning up to do, but most everyone's glad that the dirty laundry's getting aired and straightened out.
One of the most important properties of being an adult is autonomy. In fact, it's the basis on which the common understanding of responsibility is built (even our laws assume a certain level of autonomy for adults) - including moral and spiritual responsibility. In the case of the state, a person isn't rewarded with the full responsibilities and perks of citizenship until such a time as a person is shown to have a reasonable level of autonomy; children, for instance, aren't full citizens in the way adults are. The most important reason is because they do not hold the requisite level of autonomy required for responsibility (which is itself needed for all the actions and duties being a citizen entails).
In the case of the Christian faith, there is a very strong tradition (inherited in many regards from the Hebrew tradition) that only those with the proper level of autonomy and responsibility are to be held to the highest standard. Indeed, this is reflected even within the hierarchy of the Church itself; the Patriarch of Constantinople, for instance, would be held to a higher spiritual standard than a five year old child from Athens. Due to the nature of the office of Patriarch (primus inter pares), as well as the fact that to be Patriarch one must be a member of the episcopate, there is a naturally separate and more rigorous standard of spiritual wellbeing than would be applied to a child.
This holds true even for Protestant denominations, including ones who have abolished the priesthood and episcopate. Your pastor will be held to a higher standard than you will be, or the kids in sunday school. The pastor, being an adult, and having been educated in a specific way not necessarily shared by other members of the congregation is expected to hold to a higher or more rigorous standard of spiritual and moral purity than the average person. Most people accept this sort of hierarchical organization without even acknowledging it.
Now, in the case of Bob Jones' University, and the rules associated with it (as well as other like-minded institutions), you have a set of regulations that is specifically tailored to rob the autonomy and thus responsibility of the students. What does that mean? Well, instead of making them 'more moral' or shielding them from dangerous influences, the regulations remove the incredibly important property of adulthood from the student. In this way, the students are left to be treated like underdeveloped, uninformed, uneducated children. Indeed, prohibitions on certain types of media or restrictions on multi-sex meetings or co-ed dorms are the kind of restrictions one would place on children. An adult would presumedly know what types of media he or she enjoyed, and either consume or avoid it accordingly. An adult would know how to behave around members of the opposite gender, and would have an understanding of what sort of conduct (sexual or otherwise) would be appropriate.
The rules of BJU and institutions like it do far more harm than good. They don't create dedicate, observant spiritual warriors. They create a bunch of spiritual children, who don't know and can't control their desires to such a degree that they can't be trusted to watch movies rating PG-13 or above. Perhaps the most insidious thing that this does is utterly degrade the standard level that all Christians are held to. When you are in Sunday school, you teach the children concepts in simple ways, so that their relatively simple minds can understand, don't you? Rather, you don't engage in discourses on the Arian Heresy during Sunday school, do you? No, of course not. You outline the basic and most easily graspable (and in many cases, most important) tenets of the faith.
Well, when all you have within your ranks are spiritual children, the faith itself turns into a simplified caricature of itself. Instead of having congregants discuss the significance of the fabled Q-source and its implications for readings of the Gospels, or the meaning of the Sermon on the Mount in light of Augustine, you get 10-minute power point presentations or sermons on childish topics: like why it's immoral to read Harry Potter, or why Left Behind is an accurate portrayal of (a rather childish conception of) the end of days.
In short, those stupid, batshit rules do nothing but undermine a rich and historied faith, and lower the standards bar to such a level as to make it all meaningless.
I hope that answered your question.
Thanks.
Similarly, I like to write with a writing group, which enforces occasionally arbitrary rules, because they help motivate me and support me.
Rules can be comforting. It's a crazy world out there, and I think many adults—if not most adults—take comfort in someone telling them what to do and when to do it.
I think the real question is: did you decide that evangelical Christianity is true on your own, or becuase you were following someone else's rules—your parents or your pastors? If you made this decision with complete autonomy, knowing the alternatives, then I will agree you're an "adult" (one whom I strongly disagree with). But if you're an evangelical Christian because you've never been outside a homeschool bubble and questioned your beliefs, I'm not so sure.
Actually, I think the real question is: how are you able to access Penny Arcade forums at Bob Jones University? Don't they have an Internet Gestapo or something?
No, but acting like seeing that would be a huge deal and ruin your ability to ever succeed in life is pretty immature.
edit: oh, forget the above, saggio put it better than I could. If you need the rules enforced because you fear going bad without them, you aren't within fifty miles of adulthood. Unfortunately a disturbing fraction of the religious think exactly this; their moral compass is entirely external and they'll cheerfully admit that they'd likely do terrible things out of self-interest if they weren't being controlled sufficiently. That's what frightens and angers me about religious people, not the anti-science stuff and the misogyny. Those are only symptoms of a societally-encouraged lack of moral fibre.
I don't know what that says about my campus, though.
Word, in my hometown we have a big evangelical population...and they have tried to convert me on more than one occasion.
Like three nights ago my roommate had sex in the top bunk while I was asleep...that was a first.
I swear to god im never living in a shared room again, unless it's a quad/mini apartment. I never had a fornicator, but sharing a small room is pointless and annoying after you've done it once.
Yeah. A little hard to secure, though.
After all if you want to do all of that you can just go to Goshen. There you can agree to live under the conduct policy or abide with the policy. I've never known was Bethel the GC one before the merger or was the Hesston?
I actually worked at work on Saturday. Also I went out on a date with a real life girl.
Can you like, permanently break the forums?
I waited till junior year too, but I chose the roommate/"friend" from hell. Almost made me want to go back to the dorms.
I'm on my own in a different apartment now though, and pretty much everyone here is a friendly student.
Nice thing is that everything is offcampus after the first year. But I like my current roommate, unfortunately we got stuck with the smallest dorm on campus, but we have alot of fun together.
The problem with this logic is that the people attending such a school are those that need to be reminded of these rules and that the rules are expected to be enforced on a daily basis. Similar to what you may see in a stereotypical catholic school where the nuns slap students wrists with a ruler because they were talking.
Those that make the choice (and I say choice because there are those who are probably forced by their parents to attend, which is a whole different matter) to attend BJU read those rules and understand them, knowing that they are rules which they would personally follow themselves anyway. They choose this school because it fits the already chosen lifestyle that they have picked and wish to surround themselves with people who share the same beliefs and standards that they do.
These rules do not rob any autonomy from these people as it was their choice to go to a school with such rules, and knew of them before they chose to attend. If they desired to have the autonomy to do whatever they wanted, then they could have chosen a different college.
Why do they have the rules? Because it enforces that the people who choose to attend that school have like-minded ideas of what is acceptable behavior. The rules are not there to shape them into what the school deems is a "Christian", but rather they are there so that Christians can see the rules and find that this school fits the lifestyle they are choosing to live.
The idea is not to treat them as children, but rather to help them by placing a deterrent against those who are likely to have a lifestyle that is unacceptable to the people who would attend the school. If I, as a Christian, think that it is not right for someone to have sex before they are married, I do not want to get stuck in a room with someone who is committing that sin. With a rule in place, it's something I do not have to worry about. It's not restricting me, because it's a choice I've already made. It's liberating in that I do not have to worry about walking in on a naked woman when I am trying to keep myself pure for my future wife. (I'm using myself as an example here, I am not attending or planning to attend BJU and I'm already married)
Rules are what give society structure. Like-minded people are going to congregate together. Once they have found each other, they are going to try and protect themselves by placing LAWS (another word for rules) that follow their ideas so that people who do not share their ideology are less likely to disrupt their lifestyle.
People who think it's ok to go around and rape and kill others are not going to fit into a society that thinks it is wrong to do so, to give an exaggerated and non-religious example.
The idea that we should live without rules or laws is a ridiculous one. The ideal thing to find a place that has similar ideology to yourself (which given this board's reaction to the rules of BJU, it is not a place for most here) and place yourself there. For some, BJU is an excellent choice. For others, it's restricting because they find that the rules do not comply with their chosen lifestyle. Neither is incorrect, so to speak; but if it's not your cup of tea, don't drink it.
That is what you mean, right?
Exactly. If I hold those rules to my lifestyle already, I want to be around others who follow the same rules. A school with those rules is likely to attract others who have the same lifestyle as myself.
Same deal: If I don't care and don't hold any rules to my lifestyle, then I can find a college with no rules (or live off-campus) and find people there who have the same lifestyle as myself.
except for the rated R movie thing
Still, though, the way you bandied around Animal House-esque stereotypes as the norm for non-fundie colleges speaks to your inexperience: that shit isn't nearly as widespread as the admissions department of BJU-type schools would like to tell parents. I lived in on-campus housing in a state university for four semesters; I had four different roommates in that time, and the worst fault of my worst roommate was his tendency to stay up until "late" turned to "early" playing World of Warcraft.
Also, not all the crazy rules in these kind of colleges govern behavior that actually affects others, making your point about wanting to surround yourself with people who follow the same rules kind of moot. Censoring internet access, for example, doesn't affect anyone but the person trying to access the restricted information. (sidenote: restricted information at a learning institution? what the hell?) I won't even get into the institutionalized misogyny with the much-laughed-at "skirts-only rule", but then, that's a symptom, not the disease. But you get my point. There's a line where "trying to make sure that only people who would behave respectively even consider the school in the first place" turns into "trying to make sure that the people in this institution never question the doctrine we're trying to instill into them," and BJU, among other such colleges, goes way over that line.
Took luck of the draw the last year and oh god. He stank and drank, and had his girlfriend over a bit too much.
One day I walked in and she was asleep on my bed. On my bed. Blarrrrgggh. I don't know what possessed her to think that was okay.
There were words.
Despite how stereotypical it is to have your roommate have sex while you're in the same room, or come home so drunk he pees on your bed with you in it (I knew a guy who had this happen to him) or you get stuck with a guy who smokes all the time and you can't stand it, we all know people or have heard the horror stories.
Even though campuses may have "wellness" dorms, they still may not meet the satisfaction of those looking for a college with a more strict rule set that will make sure that they won't have to deal with such things, and BJU is there to fit the bill. A bit on the extreme side of the bill? Sure. But there are extremes on either side and everything inbetween. If it wasn't BJU, it'd be another college, like Pensacola (PCC) in Florida.
Meanwhile, the school's crime statistics state that about 1 or 2 incidences of sexual assault happen on campus per year, which to me seems absurdly low. They'd likely attribute the fact to the school's morality code (no women and men allowed in the same room with the door closed and a curfew, among other things), however, and for all I know that's a reasonable explanation and my friend was just unlucky.
I'm willing to bet its a load of bullshit, and that the stats aren't much lower (accounting for, on the plus side, less booze, and on the minus side, patriarchy-lawl), and that stories like your friend's one serve to keep the report-rate that low
I'm pretty sure this trick is nothing new, just that it fell out of favor with most mainstream schools a while back when we realized that women were people.
The fact that you are incapable of understanding reality, which is to say dorm life in state schools, would imply that this isn't actually the case.
The 'worst' thing that you would probably consider which happened to me during my 2 years of living on campus in a school that is infamous for its party nature (it was the inspiration for Animal House, although everything really died after the 60's) was that I had a gay roomie my sophmore year who liked to kiss other guys. (oh noes!) It was a wonderful architectural school that Bucky taught at for most of his life and I got a great education out of it while living to my own moral code. One that is likely just as rigorous as your own. And here's the kicker, I'm not an exceptional rarity.
I looked up the figures, for anyone interested. 2004 was the year of her incident, so she would be the "1" if one assumes honesty on the part of the university.
Cat: I strongly suspected what you're telling me, and I'm sure the girl and anyone else she confided in did as well. Despite the improper manner in which the case was handled, though, she didn't seek further action and I didn't see fit to urge her on because it simply wasn't my place to do so.
They're saying that a second table would usually follow the one they wrote up to specify which, if any, of the reported crimes were racially motivated in nature. Since there were no hate crimes, apparently, they thought they should make a note stating that much in place of a table with nothing but 0's in it.
The logic behind not presenting a hate crime table would only apply to the main tables if no crimes had occurred at all.
Side note: Figuring it wouldn't cause me any trouble at all, I anonymously e-mailed the Boston Globe a news tip about what my friend said had happened to her with a link to the numbers on Gordon's site which, even by themselves, should warrant investigation. I didn't give them her name, of course. I mean if there really is something going on, they likely wouldn't need it. All it should take is finding a student who was raped in a 0 year or finding two students who were raped in a 1 year to disprove the numbers, right?
Given my distance from the event itself and the fact that I fell out with the girl months ago, I doubt there's anything else I can possibly do.
Dont patronize me. I understand dorm life in 'state schools' (even though I live in Canada, thanks for that assumption). Why cant you understand that my Christian school provides a better place for me to receive my education?
I never debated the 'rigor' of different moral codes, I just said that most Christian schools provide a better place to live out Christian standards. I dont know why you're taking umbrage.
Oh, and thanks for assuming that I'm a homophobic asshole, that was nice.