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We have never lost. We have never come close to losing. 9/10 games end up with the horde getting ZERO honor.
Alliance boasting about winning AV in a premade is similar to winning the special olympics.
Congrats champ.
That'd be the point I was making. And losing half the time is like being too retarded to qualify for the special olympics.
Although, the fact that you throw faction in as a qualifier for your statement leads me to believe you're more biased than anything. Faction competence completely differs between BGs within each battlegroup but only when refering to pug v pug. Faction doesn't matter at all with premades. Any 40 people, organized to perform a task should win over 40 disorganized people of similar talent/gear EVERY game.
What is with all the sweeping statements about faction imbalance? There are so many servers and battle groups out there.
Can complainers provide some actual numbers?
http://okoloth.blogspot.com/
This guy was spidering the Armory for a while (his last update was in november 2007) and put out stats for class and faction balance for every server. The rightmost two columns for a server show alliance/horde split - color coded from green to red going from low to high percentages. Some servers (like mine) are balanced 50/50, others have imbalance one way or the other. But just because one person is on high alliance server doesn't mean everyone is. There was even one server in November were 89% of the players were horde side!
My PVP server (Frostmourne) was for a long time Horde majority, probably still is, isn't that the way with PVP servers generally? Just as my PVE server was like 3:1 Alliance.
We have never lost. We have never come close to losing. 9/10 games end up with the horde getting ZERO honor.
Alliance boasting about winning AV in a premade is similar to winning the special olympics.
Congrats champ.
That'd be the point I was making. And losing half the time is like being too retarded to qualify for the special olympics.
Although, the fact that you throw faction in as a qualifier for your statement leads me to believe you're more biased than anything. Faction competence completely differs between BGs within each battlegroup but only when refering to pug v pug. Faction doesn't matter at all with premades. Any 40 people, organized to perform a task should win over 40 disorganized people of similar talent/gear EVERY game.
See, you're talking about running an Alliance premade. I'm talking about running a Horde premade. The Aliiance on Vindication - whether premade or PUG - have got the rush thing down PAT. The Horde do not. So when Horde put together a premade to rush, it merely improves the odds, it doesn't cement them. You take a known winning strategy, give it to a group of people who have not had the chance to practise it, and just see what happens.
I think people need to calm the hell down here, myself included. This vitriol is not conducive to civil discussion.
The Horde premades on Vindication do not steamroll. Once we get going, we get a good 75% win rate. We have a good 75% lose rate until the group gels. Even when we are winning, the Alliance aren't getting crushed - they get decent honour from the encounter and cap objectives. It's a close battle.
This is in EVERY Horde premade I've been in. Now if you want to simply denounce an entire battlegroup, feel free. It lets us know just what wit you've not put to the problem. If, on the other hand, you want to try to figure out reasons for this phenomena, I'm happy to converse with you. But seriously, let's use our brains and not our livers here.
What is with all the sweeping statements about faction imbalance? There are so many servers and battle groups out there.
Can complainers provide some actual numbers?
I don't think anyone's disputing population imbalance here. When that happens you get horrifying queue times for one side or the other and everyone can agree that sucks. The dispute is over win/loss rates, and those are some numbers I'd love to see. Sadly though, Blizzard doesn't (to my knowledge) publish them.
Huzzah! Just finished what'll probably be my last BG in a while, as 2K honor this morning bought me my Vindicator's necklace (and all other planned gear upgrades are PvE). Had plenty of other marks, but only 3 WSG marks. Turned those in for 314 honor apiece, then queued up for WSG, as it was also the BG daily. Battleground starts, Alliance outnumbers Horde at the starting bell (as usual), we go down 0-2. Then we finally get our 10th and things start to turn around. Tied it 2-2. Then we each had our opponent's flags hunkered down in our bases when the flagcarrier debuff is announced. +50% damage taken and movement speed slowed. Then +100% damage taken. Somehow, we manage to heal our flagcarrier faster than they can heal theirs, we recover flag, cap, and I saw my first WSG win as Horde. Honor from winning + honor from WSG daily quest + honor from turning in 3 more packs of marks == Vindicator's Pendant of Triumph. And, while it was fun, that's the last thing I needed from BGs and will probably PvE fulltime, now.
Not needing to wait until honor rollover is cool, too.
Also, I hadn't seen this mentioned yet, but instead of server names, everyone on both teams (who wasn't from Jubei'Thos) had something like "BG3-US" on the scoreboard where server name would go. I guess this is to prevent people from immediately knowing if they're up against a premade.
Also, I hadn't seen this mentioned yet, but instead of server names, everyone on both teams (who wasn't from Jubei'Thos) had something like "BG3-US" on the scoreboard where server name would go. I guess this is to prevent people from immediately knowing if they're up against a premade.
Also, I hadn't seen this mentioned yet, but instead of server names, everyone on both teams (who wasn't from Jubei'Thos) had something like "BG3-US" on the scoreboard where server name would go. I guess this is to prevent people from immediately knowing if they're up against a premade.
Okay, that's awesome.
Well, it MAY be a bug. Hortus says they're investigating it, but that may mean it's a change they forgot to tell him about, or it's an unintended change that may or may not be reverted. Personally, I'm in favor of it. Too many times I've joined a BG only to notice that everyone from my team is joining and leaving rapid-fire. I don't even have to look at the scoreboard by that point to know that they saw that everyone on the other team is from the same server. At least stick around for the fight and don't chicken out instantly.
Also, I hadn't seen this mentioned yet, but instead of server names, everyone on both teams (who wasn't from Jubei'Thos) had something like "BG3-US" on the scoreboard where server name would go. I guess this is to prevent people from immediately knowing if they're up against a premade.
Okay, that's awesome.
Well, it MAY be a bug. Hortus says they're investigating it, but that may mean it's a change they forgot to tell him about, or it's an unintended change that may or may not be reverted. Personally, I'm in favor of it. Too many times I've joined a BG only to notice that everyone from my team is joining and leaving rapid-fire. I don't even have to look at the scoreboard by that point to know that they saw that everyone on the other team is from the same server. At least stick around for the fight and don't chicken out instantly.
I don't like the change because it could mean that Alliance premades will stop running from my Horde premades.
Oh, regarding the earlier AV discussion: I too am on the Vindication battlegroup.
Yes, the Horde do lose a LOT of AV's on Vindication. There was a brief period after 2.2 (or was it 2.3) where suddenly they became unstoppable with the "hold them at IB" trick, which was then surpassed a few weeks (a month? Maybe two at the most) by newfound "Stay mounted and ride past them, ignoring IB entirely" hax.
However, that's balanced (karmically) by winning practically every match in every other battleground for the past 3 years that doesn't involve an Alliance pre-made. PuG vs PuG is like a 90% chance for an Alliance loss in either of the other three. And that's not just QQ, I've PuG'd a LOT of BG's across a LOT of characters, and going solo into a vindication battleground is just asking to either get steamrolled by a Pre-made or steamrolled by another PuG (for several years, our biggest problem were the queue times). The few wins you (an Alliance PuG member) might manage are usually due to filling in a slot in an alliance pre-made by accident of the queue'ing system than anything else.
Forar on
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
So how bad is AV now? Is it all premades? Has the change in the mob health and cave location helped/hindered? Or did anybody bother yet?
I won 10 games straight in the level 51-60 bracket. Every one of the games was 13 minutes, max. Of course, the 70 bracket is WAY different, but I definitely noticed a huge difference when the horde couldn't run up to midfield nearly as quickly as they used to.
The main difference I noticed was that we would be at Iceblood and tapping it when their whole force was there too. We never lost Stonehearth bunker. And, once we assaulted Frostwolf GY, their entire team was turtling in between their two towers in their base. It made it much harder to assault the relief hut.
I dunno, I did one yesterday, and it seemed like the entire alliance team zerged us, and not enough Horde was on D (until the O didn't guard caps and were thrown back to FW GY). We lost by less than 100 points because we lost all of the towers.
EU-Blackout, alliance side. Played 1 AV, won 1, horrible lag (about 30 seconds at peak) ruined the whole thing. Also random disconnects in WSG and some weird bug where everyone's server appears as EU1-BG-EN or some such gibberish. And HonorFu apparently can't count anymore. And my StunWatch addon appears to have gone AWOL. And damn Blizzard fixed the hilariously awesome Cheat Death feature, uh bug.
But on the bright side I did get a baby crocolisk pet from the fishing daily quest. So that was nice.
EU-Blackout, alliance side. Played 1 AV, won 1, horrible lag (about 30 seconds at peak) ruined the whole thing. Also random disconnects in WSG and some weird bug where everyone's server appears as EU1-BG-EN or some such gibberish. And HonorFu apparently can't count anymore. And my StunWatch addon appears to have gone AWOL. And damn Blizzard fixed the hilariously awesome Cheat Death feature, uh bug.
But on the bright side I did get a baby crocolisk pet from the fishing daily quest. So that was nice.
Unless I'm greatly mistaken on what HonorFu actually does, you can probably just delete the whole thing and never bother with it again, owing to the whole "no more estimated honor" thing.
I think I just got used to HonorFu slightly underestimating honour and the PvP tab vastly overestimating, now it's reversed I have become all confuzzled... Whatever the reason is I'll be honour capped within the week anyway so fuck it, hooray
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited March 2008
jim you are crazy
AV lag on Bloodlust was horrid
Despite that, loss games were giving 300-350 honor and wins were giving 500 honor.
The only viable strat was to rush to Vann/Drek and just try to attack him through sheer force of numbers. Defending was impossible with this kind of lag.
Gave it a shot last night, we didn't have that much lag in Nightfall so defending was still viable. Horde did "okay" at defending, but the majority still zerged SH/balinda. I still rode up to attempt to ninja AS (alliance barely defended it, it was strange), and I had the occasional help.
Wins/losses were 50%, but the losses were usually slaughters. The wins? Not so much.
After last night, I don't see myself ever doing AV again. The horde was most definitely Turtley enough to join the Turtle Club. I don't mind the losing. I mind that the game took 45 minutes just to get us down to 200 reinforcements. I AFK'd out after that, and I'm still glad I did.
EU-Blackout, alliance side. Played 1 AV, won 1, horrible lag (about 30 seconds at peak) ruined the whole thing. Also random disconnects in WSG and some weird bug where everyone's server appears as EU1-BG-EN or some such gibberish. And HonorFu apparently can't count anymore. And my StunWatch addon appears to have gone AWOL. And damn Blizzard fixed the hilariously awesome Cheat Death feature, uh bug.
But on the bright side I did get a baby crocolisk pet from the fishing daily quest. So that was nice.
I don't know if I'm just incredibly lucky in EU-blackout horde; while I don't actually play AV much (I don't need any of the pvp gear you can buy, and am just taking my time to buy an elemental set in S2; 40k honor and all the tokens), I tend to win.
Played 4 AV's; one a big mess of DC's and lag, one I came into a loosing game, and the 2 I came which were fresh, horde won. Previous to that, I tended to be in winning games as I'd be all of 1 in defense at the relief hut.
Also got all that wierd EU1-BG-EN rubbish and the random drops from WSG as well last night
Man, I joined 2.4 AV and was pleased as punch. Horde won (which had something to do with it), but GODDAMN was it close. Balinda roundly kicked our asses, and we threw the Allys out of Galv. Towers bounced back and forth. Death squads roamed all over, playing "shortstop" where needed. In the end, we killed Vann with Drek down to 20%, and it could have just as easily gone the other way.
Yes, it took about 40 minutes. But really, without diminishing returns, WHO FREAKING CARES? I probably racked up as much regular honour as bonus honour AND HAD A BLAST while playing. I like to think the Allys did too.
Imperfect on
0
AegisFear My DanceOvershot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered Userregular
edited March 2008
Yea, I've been running a few AV lately and basically the Horde strategy has changed (at least on the Ravenholdt battleground) from rushing like hell to get to the general, to defense. Specifically, horde can either defend at two points: 1) Either defense all piles into Galv's spot and stops the alliance there and/or delays them or; 2) We ignore Galv and, while making sure no towers in the base are captured, we hold on as tightly as we can to the Iceblood and Tower Point towers.
Basically if those towers remain alive and the offense of ours keeps going, we'll end up running the alliance out of reinforcements. This usually takes between 20-30 minutes to win an AV.
Unless of course our horde consist of fucking idiots like last night, who, upon being informed of the new advantages to defending take it upon themselves to get the bright idea to have every single fucking horde player in the AV go on defense. We lost that round, obviously, considering we didn't take a single goddamn alliance tower as our O evaporated.
I just did an av and was amazed to see that the horde actually won. alliance don't seem to know how to cope with the fact that they need ALL towers burned in order to kill drek now. but I'm sure they will adjust and horde will start sucking again shortly.
Okay, so I've had some time to play with the new AV (on both my mage and paladin), and here's what I've discovered:
1. Horde is more likely to defend now (I actually saw one of those legendary "scorched earth" games the other night. My paladin was actually getting killing blows with the massive battle going on around SPGY).
2. A single stealther going around and recapping towers will completely shut down an offensive.
3. Vann (and I would assume Drek) are still very killable while there's one tower up.
4. I can still single cap AS, it just takes me a little longer to get there.
5. Balinda is still a joke (I didn't see though, did they fix the fact she can be stunned?)
EU-Blackout, alliance side. Played 1 AV, won 1, horrible lag (about 30 seconds at peak) ruined the whole thing. Also random disconnects in WSG and some weird bug where everyone's server appears as EU1-BG-EN or some such gibberish. And HonorFu apparently can't count anymore. And my StunWatch addon appears to have gone AWOL. And damn Blizzard fixed the hilariously awesome Cheat Death feature, uh bug.
But on the bright side I did get a baby crocolisk pet from the fishing daily quest. So that was nice.
What was the bug? How it absorbed 99% damage because it calculated the reduction TWICE?
The Muffin Man on
0
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited April 2008
I liked it when everyone was shown as US1-BG3 instead of their realm.
People didnt flee premades, they stayed and fought, and no doubt won quite a few.
Posts
Alliance boasting about winning AV in a premade is similar to winning the special olympics.
Congrats champ.
maybe it's a group of pick-up groups... you know, like 2 pugs = one warsong pug group, 3 pugs = one EOTS/AB pug group...
(it's a pet peeve of mine too)
That'd be the point I was making. And losing half the time is like being too retarded to qualify for the special olympics.
Although, the fact that you throw faction in as a qualifier for your statement leads me to believe you're more biased than anything. Faction competence completely differs between BGs within each battlegroup but only when refering to pug v pug. Faction doesn't matter at all with premades. Any 40 people, organized to perform a task should win over 40 disorganized people of similar talent/gear EVERY game.
Can complainers provide some actual numbers?
http://okoloth.blogspot.com/
This guy was spidering the Armory for a while (his last update was in november 2007) and put out stats for class and faction balance for every server. The rightmost two columns for a server show alliance/horde split - color coded from green to red going from low to high percentages. Some servers (like mine) are balanced 50/50, others have imbalance one way or the other. But just because one person is on high alliance server doesn't mean everyone is. There was even one server in November were 89% of the players were horde side!
Here were some of this totals in November.
Characters 4,563,202
Alliance 2,645,417 (57.97%)
Horde 1,917,785 (42.03%)
Level 70's 1,797,960 (39.4%)
Arena Teams 139,678
Guilds 58,465
Realms 436
Battlegroups 34
Sure his numbers are getting stale but at least they kill the common forum complaint that all servers have a 2:1 (or 3:1!) Alliance:Horde ratio.
See, you're talking about running an Alliance premade. I'm talking about running a Horde premade. The Aliiance on Vindication - whether premade or PUG - have got the rush thing down PAT. The Horde do not. So when Horde put together a premade to rush, it merely improves the odds, it doesn't cement them. You take a known winning strategy, give it to a group of people who have not had the chance to practise it, and just see what happens.
I think people need to calm the hell down here, myself included. This vitriol is not conducive to civil discussion.
The Horde premades on Vindication do not steamroll. Once we get going, we get a good 75% win rate. We have a good 75% lose rate until the group gels. Even when we are winning, the Alliance aren't getting crushed - they get decent honour from the encounter and cap objectives. It's a close battle.
This is in EVERY Horde premade I've been in. Now if you want to simply denounce an entire battlegroup, feel free. It lets us know just what wit you've not put to the problem. If, on the other hand, you want to try to figure out reasons for this phenomena, I'm happy to converse with you. But seriously, let's use our brains and not our livers here.
I don't think anyone's disputing population imbalance here. When that happens you get horrifying queue times for one side or the other and everyone can agree that sucks. The dispute is over win/loss rates, and those are some numbers I'd love to see. Sadly though, Blizzard doesn't (to my knowledge) publish them.
Not needing to wait until honor rollover is cool, too.
Also, I hadn't seen this mentioned yet, but instead of server names, everyone on both teams (who wasn't from Jubei'Thos) had something like "BG3-US" on the scoreboard where server name would go. I guess this is to prevent people from immediately knowing if they're up against a premade.
Okay, that's awesome.
Well, it MAY be a bug. Hortus says they're investigating it, but that may mean it's a change they forgot to tell him about, or it's an unintended change that may or may not be reverted. Personally, I'm in favor of it. Too many times I've joined a BG only to notice that everyone from my team is joining and leaving rapid-fire. I don't even have to look at the scoreboard by that point to know that they saw that everyone on the other team is from the same server. At least stick around for the fight and don't chicken out instantly.
I don't like the change because it could mean that Alliance premades will stop running from my Horde premades.
Didn't like losing the first time though :P
But losing games vs 20 minute queues, I'll take the shorter queues and losing some games.
Yes, the Horde do lose a LOT of AV's on Vindication. There was a brief period after 2.2 (or was it 2.3) where suddenly they became unstoppable with the "hold them at IB" trick, which was then surpassed a few weeks (a month? Maybe two at the most) by newfound "Stay mounted and ride past them, ignoring IB entirely" hax.
However, that's balanced (karmically) by winning practically every match in every other battleground for the past 3 years that doesn't involve an Alliance pre-made. PuG vs PuG is like a 90% chance for an Alliance loss in either of the other three. And that's not just QQ, I've PuG'd a LOT of BG's across a LOT of characters, and going solo into a vindication battleground is just asking to either get steamrolled by a Pre-made or steamrolled by another PuG (for several years, our biggest problem were the queue times). The few wins you (an Alliance PuG member) might manage are usually due to filling in a slot in an alliance pre-made by accident of the queue'ing system than anything else.
I won 10 games straight in the level 51-60 bracket. Every one of the games was 13 minutes, max. Of course, the 70 bracket is WAY different, but I definitely noticed a huge difference when the horde couldn't run up to midfield nearly as quickly as they used to.
But on the bright side I did get a baby crocolisk pet from the fishing daily quest. So that was nice.
I enjoyed it a lot
a whole lot
probably more than I should have
AV lag on Bloodlust was horrid
Despite that, loss games were giving 300-350 honor and wins were giving 500 honor.
The only viable strat was to rush to Vann/Drek and just try to attack him through sheer force of numbers. Defending was impossible with this kind of lag.
those kills were actually just myself and my disc priest friend fending off about 10 alliance at our RH
t'was glorious
Wins/losses were 50%, but the losses were usually slaughters. The wins? Not so much.
Massive alliance zerg stright to FW, no Horde defended. We simply got outraced.
So, 5 minute queue = good
AV now just a race again = bad
I don't know if I'm just incredibly lucky in EU-blackout horde; while I don't actually play AV much (I don't need any of the pvp gear you can buy, and am just taking my time to buy an elemental set in S2; 40k honor and all the tokens), I tend to win.
Played 4 AV's; one a big mess of DC's and lag, one I came into a loosing game, and the 2 I came which were fresh, horde won. Previous to that, I tended to be in winning games as I'd be all of 1 in defense at the relief hut.
Also got all that wierd EU1-BG-EN rubbish and the random drops from WSG as well last night
Yes, it took about 40 minutes. But really, without diminishing returns, WHO FREAKING CARES? I probably racked up as much regular honour as bonus honour AND HAD A BLAST while playing. I like to think the Allys did too.
Basically if those towers remain alive and the offense of ours keeps going, we'll end up running the alliance out of reinforcements. This usually takes between 20-30 minutes to win an AV.
Unless of course our horde consist of fucking idiots like last night, who, upon being informed of the new advantages to defending take it upon themselves to get the bright idea to have every single fucking horde player in the AV go on defense. We lost that round, obviously, considering we didn't take a single goddamn alliance tower as our O evaporated.
Currently DMing: None
Characters
[5e] Dural Melairkyn - AC 18 | HP 40 | Melee +5/1d8+3 | Spell +4/DC 12
1. Horde is more likely to defend now (I actually saw one of those legendary "scorched earth" games the other night. My paladin was actually getting killing blows with the massive battle going on around SPGY).
2. A single stealther going around and recapping towers will completely shut down an offensive.
3. Vann (and I would assume Drek) are still very killable while there's one tower up.
4. I can still single cap AS, it just takes me a little longer to get there.
5. Balinda is still a joke (I didn't see though, did they fix the fact she can be stunned?)
What was the bug? How it absorbed 99% damage because it calculated the reduction TWICE?
People didnt flee premades, they stayed and fought, and no doubt won quite a few.