No clue but I'm picking it up as soon as it comes in as *I THINK* it will be a dark real-time attempt at something like Mystery Dungeon: Shiren the Wanderer.
So I'm loving the CONCEPT of this game but until I see how it executes (getting just the right mix of frustration but entertaining enough to want you to come back for more), I should hold my tongue.
Ah okay. I've been craving a new game... But holding off for something that flew under my radar.
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Baroque And RollEvery spark of friendship and loveWill die without a homeRegistered Userregular
edited April 2008
I've been watching this game since its release on PS2 in Japan, and when I heard it was going to localized I was pretty damn stoked. I just wish I wasn't poor.
Sorry if it has already been covered but I believe this is a real-time roguelike, sort of akin to Diablo/Hellgate, and not EVEN TRYING to be some TRUE action RPG like Devil May Cry. So while it is not turn-based, whether you hit or miss will be based more on statistics than the player's physical dexterity.
Hm, so it is a Roguelike?
Does the Wii version really have Waggle? I'd almost rather not worry about Waggle. :P
The Wii version is supposed to support Classic Control style. If this is just without waggle, or with a GC or SNES controller plugged in is your guess.
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ArminasStudent of LifeSF, CARegistered Userregular
edited April 2008
This is released today isn't it? I think I got my call from Game Stop last night, but my memory is waning...
maybe it's baroque'n.
But really, I did pre order it, but now I realize I'm also purchasing Mario Kart Wii and I wasn't sure if my wallet should take the hit. My will to want this game is waning. The formula looks a little bit like that of Mega Man Legends from the PSX, which I did thoroughly enjoy, but I'm still unsure about this game.
Damn, the artwork of this game is extremly creepy. Very atmospheric though but it's a shame that the site seems to have some pretty shoddy translation/engrish.
If this gets an E.U release I'll have a look on it since I've been craving a console Rogue like for quite a while now.
Sorry if it has already been covered but I believe this is a real-time roguelike, sort of akin to Diablo/Hellgate, and not EVEN TRYING to be some TRUE action RPG like Devil May Cry. So while it is not turn-based, whether you hit or miss will be based more on statistics than the player's physical dexterity.
Hm, so it is a Roguelike?
Does the Wii version really have Waggle? I'd almost rather not worry about Waggle. :P
Don't worry, "The Wiggle Waggle is WEAK in this one, Obi Wan."
Actually, while I started with the Wiimote and Nunchuck control scheme, I think this just screams for the Classic Controller. Are you ready for teh extent of the waggle control!?
Shake Wiimote to do Special Attack (so your wielded weapon's strong but slower attack).
That's it.
I think it is a lot more precise to do with with a button press since it's never clear in the heat of battle HOW MUCH you need to shake it to get it to trigger.
Also the camera controls in the Wiimote Scheme are a bit convoluted. The "Z" button, when in 3rd person view mode, will whip the camera to the direction you are currently facing (handy). The "Z" button also is used to "Lock-On" various baddies (also very handy). Here's, however, where this falls apart. I have some flying fish off camera biting me. No problem I whip my guy around to face them and hit the almighty "Z" button! Well...my character is facing them, even has one locked on and everything...but the camera is still facing toward my character head-on with the fish just off screen. I can't seem to use the "reset camera angle to the way my character is facing" aspect of the "Z" button while in the midst of combat! At least in the Classic Controller there are two separate buttons for locking on and camera angle resetting. In addition, with the Classic Controller's two little thumbsticks I foresee it far easier to control my character's movement and the camera all effortlessly.
ArminasStudent of LifeSF, CARegistered Userregular
edited April 2008
I played it for about an hour or two when I first got it, and it was both what I did expect and did not... The weirdness from Atlus comes through the game's voicing and the strangeness of characters. But the awkward feel of the wiimote + nunchuck control schema is irritating to say the least. As mentioned by LordGek, the dual-purpose lock on with Z and resetting of camera angle during combat is horrible.
I'm in no position to judge if it's a roguelike since I'm not very familiar with the term, but I have to say that first uh, "dungeon" was might confusing for myself. I didn't realize what the purpose was (i'm not talking about the training dungeon).
It's just a simulation, practice I guess, but why do this and have a training dungeon available? I have no idea
Oh, and the liberal usage of vaguely biological and medical terms is slightly painful.
However the atmosphere is fantastic, it's dark, and little freaky. But I do wish the combat system was a little smoother. Oh, and the manual that came with it smells a little funny to me. I guess I'll see what everyone else thinks and play some more myself before I come to any kind of judgement, just thought I'd throw out my first impressions.
EDIT:
Read the review that was on Siliconera and okay, so I do know what a roguelike is, just didn't realize it was under that name. And I've got a better idea for it, but I'll try playing again later with a different control scheme.
As far as I can tell it's all about timing as hitting them when all tucked in their shell doesn't do much.
I'm liking the concept of Environmental Features...basically some levels will have things like steam vents firing off at regular intervals or even panels that if stepped on fire out a fire ball that, if you work it right can be used AGAINST baddies. Also, unlike Shiren for the most part, monsters can set off traps as well.
So far I'm loving the game but getting VERY FRUSTRATED by the controls. I'm having all sorts of fun with stuff like trying to run away from a pile of baddies on my tail, and then whip around to throw something at them. I just can't pull this off for shit, trying to both get the right item ready and throw it quickly at the stampede coming down on me.
So other than the option for waggle, no big difference? If so, I'll ge tthe Wii version for the option to use the classic controller or not... Hm.
Gamestop has Arcana Hearts out TOMORROW, so I can't do my big $150 order tonight like I wanted to. Damn them...
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ArminasStudent of LifeSF, CARegistered Userregular
edited April 2008
I did actually enjoy the game with another sit down now that I adopted a slightly different mindset. I was a little sad that
I didn't get to keep anything even though I completed the dungeon.
But as the dungeon went on longer and longer, it became increasingly difficult and downright ridiculous to battle the foes that were going up against me. The controls are too clunky and slow to allow me to do it, or I'm just missing the point. I did begin to just run towards the end of the dungeon only seeking out the portal to the next level.
One thing that this game does right is the fact that the character model changes in accordance with what you have equipped. It's kind of strange, in our time of high powered consoles, that so many RPG's skip that aspect and just shows you what weapon you have equipped.
besides waggle and optional classic con support, it should be mentioned that the Wii version supports 480p and 16×9 widescreen, while the PS2 version doesn't.
What about the Gamecube controller? Can I use a Wavebird or is it classic only?
They don't mention any sort of GC Controller support in the manual and *I THINK* I once saw an interview where a developer said outright, "No GC support!"
Can someone tell me more about the concept of roguelike lose everything when you die? How bad is it? Is it a part of the game (like, does it expect you to die a lot) or does it mean I will have to be extra careful when I try to do anything in an attempt not to die and have to start all over again?
Can someone tell me more about the concept of roguelike lose everything when you die? How bad is it? Is it a part of the game (like, does it expect you to die a lot) or does it mean I will have to be extra careful when I try to do anything in an attempt not to die and have to start all over again?
Roguelikes are for the hardcore. Ninja Gaiden is so hard your friends die, but roguelikes kill your whole family tree, conquer several third world nations, stockpile nuclear weapons, learn the bagpipes, force-feed you brussel sprouts, and kick your dog.
Can someone tell me more about the concept of roguelike lose everything when you die? How bad is it? Is it a part of the game (like, does it expect you to die a lot) or does it mean I will have to be extra careful when I try to do anything in an attempt not to die and have to start all over again?
Roguelikes are for the hardcore. Ninja Gaiden is so hard your friends die, but roguelikes kill your whole family tree, conquer several third world nations, stockpile nuclear weapons, learn the bagpipes, force-feed you brussel sprouts, and kick your dog.
Truth be told, it's really more like getting slapped across the face with a stiff cock.
Can someone tell me more about the concept of roguelike lose everything when you die? How bad is it? Is it a part of the game (like, does it expect you to die a lot) or does it mean I will have to be extra careful when I try to do anything in an attempt not to die and have to start all over again?
Roguelikes are for the hardcore. Ninja Gaiden is so hard your friends die, but roguelikes kill your whole family tree, conquer several third world nations, stockpile nuclear weapons, learn the bagpipes, force-feed you brussel sprouts, and kick your dog.
Truth be told, it's really more like getting slapped across the face with a stiff cock.
I haven't had that happen to me since college..
So is Baroque like playing Diablo 2 on hardcore on Blizznet where once you are dead you have to start from the very beginning again?
Can someone tell me more about the concept of roguelike lose everything when you die? How bad is it? Is it a part of the game (like, does it expect you to die a lot) or does it mean I will have to be extra careful when I try to do anything in an attempt not to die and have to start all over again?
Roguelikes are for the hardcore. Ninja Gaiden is so hard your friends die, but roguelikes kill your whole family tree, conquer several third world nations, stockpile nuclear weapons, learn the bagpipes, force-feed you brussel sprouts, and kick your dog.
Truth be told, it's really more like getting slapped across the face with a stiff cock.
I'm a little confused by the nature of death in this game; I've heard that dying is essential to advancing the plot, and that you basically have to die at certain points. How does that work if the game punishes death by stripping you of all levels, experience, and items and sending you back to the start?
I can understand the one life, no continues concept in a game if it's possible to play cautiously and stay alive until the end, but if death is also required to advance the game, that seems a little unfair.
I feel this game is going to fail, and if it doesn't? I'm pretty sure it will...
Saying this about an Atlus game is a bit silly - their games appeal to a small market, yeah. But that market loves these types of games, and Atlus will sell their print run quickly every time and I'd be damn surprised if they didn't consistently target profitability to come from that initial print run seeing as how many times that's all they make.
This game won't crack any top 5 sales lists, but I'd be more confident in it making money than I would in billion-dollar-budget AAA Generic Title #415 by a WIDE margin.
It looks like only the Wii version of this game will be released in the E.U, with the added "bonus" of us having to wait until June. Guess it's another game off my purchasing list, which is a shame since I thought this game was starting to look pretty good in my eyes.
Okay, lets look at who is behind that review. I love NP for nostalgia's sake but they know fuck-all about RPGs. Even with new owners it's still a PR whore for Nintendo, and what's the next big thing on their systems. Baroque isn't going to be a critics game, its going to be another cult title, and I'm okay with that. IMHO, niche titles serve the industry far better than wide appeals to general tastes.
I feel this game is going to fail, and if it doesn't? I'm pretty sure it will...
Saying this about an Atlus game is a bit silly - their games appeal to a small market, yeah. But that market loves these types of games, and Atlus will sell their print run quickly every time and I'd be damn surprised if they didn't consistently target profitability to come from that initial print run seeing as how many times that's all they make.
This game won't crack any top 5 sales lists, but I'd be more confident in it making money than I would in billion-dollar-budget AAA Generic Title #415 by a WIDE margin.
Atlus is smart.
They know that their market is niche, and they budget and finance for that market.
They plan and expect most of their games to never exceed 100k copies sold in North America. So they keep their publishing deals cheap and only produce enough copies to fulfill that extremely small demand.
If and only if their initial runs sell out real fast and they get reorders do they increase production, and even then, they do so in small amounts until they stop getting reorders.
It's an extremely conservative business but they budget and plan for things so that they don't need huge sales numbers to be profitable and keep publishing (and in some cases developing) games.
In fact, most of their games don't crack 80k sales in North America, and probably the majority of them fall a round the 40k mark.
And yet, they continue publishing these games, in the same franchises no less, because they know what the market is, can budget, and publish for it, and eek out something profitable.
They will never aspire to throw out a $15 million dollar budget and expect to sell 500k copies of anything. They hope to sell as much as possible but they don't plan on it and do not need to. Their success is not measured by other companies' definitions of success and I would say that if ANY atlus game hits 100k sales it's a huge success for them.
So anyway, I love atlus because they are able to supply to a niche market and do so intelligently and stay in business and provide unique things.
This is why reviews, particularly their arbitrary number scores, are so retarded - ESPECIALLY when it comes to niche games.
The Nintendo Power reviewer has no idea what he's playing. He's judging this game by standards that it is not meant to be judged - he's essentially holding this game's genre against it by comparing it to another entirely - He's basically saying that this Orange is no good because it is not in every way an Apple.
This happens every time a shmup or 2D fighter comes out, and yes, every time a Roguelike comes out. Too many reviewers have their heads in these holes and have no idea what grounds they're supposed to be judging by.
And part of the problem is the fact that most reviewers think that it's their job to review a game from the perspective of "the average gamer" instead of by a "gamer who likes this genre." Or gameplay style. Which ultimately results in only larger, more accepted/mainstream genres getting better review scores on average while niche genres get panned simply because of what they are meant to be.
Now, not all reviewers do this, but it is a guarantee that at least some, like Nintendo Power have done here, will not know what they're doing and judge an Orange by Apple standards.
Dr Mario KartGames DealerAustin, TXRegistered Userregular
edited April 2008
Anything that plays even remotely roguelike-ish is going to rate low. Metacritics ratings for Izuna, Shiren, and the Pokemon Mystery Dungeon games are all in the 60's.
I'm a little confused by the nature of death in this game; I've heard that dying is essential to advancing the plot, and that you basically have to die at certain points. How does that work if the game punishes death by stripping you of all levels, experience, and items and sending you back to the start?
I can understand the one life, no continues concept in a game if it's possible to play cautiously and stay alive until the end, but if death is also required to advance the game, that seems a little unfair.
Death is supposed to be a part of the game. Losing all your items and being pushed back to level 1 happens whenever you leave the dungeons, whether through death or through completing a dungeon. It's not a punishment; it's a core part of the game. Tougher dungeons will have better equipment in them, so you won't be massively unprepared as you continue through the game.
I can understand the one life, no continues concept in a game if it's possible to play cautiously and stay alive until the end, but if death is also required to advance the game, that seems a little unfair.
Like I said, it's not a punishment as much as it is a game mechanic. When you die, you're not sent "back to the start." You're kicked out of the tower, and new things might be available now. Don't be afraid to die in this game, and don't be one of those guys who hits Reset every time your HP reaches 0 (like me when I play Fire Emblem).
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No clue but I'm picking it up as soon as it comes in as *I THINK* it will be a dark real-time attempt at something like Mystery Dungeon: Shiren the Wanderer.
So I'm loving the CONCEPT of this game but until I see how it executes (getting just the right mix of frustration but entertaining enough to want you to come back for more), I should hold my tongue.
SteamID: Baroque And Roll
Hm, so it is a Roguelike?
Does the Wii version really have Waggle? I'd almost rather not worry about Waggle. :P
maybe it's baroque'n.
But really, I did pre order it, but now I realize I'm also purchasing Mario Kart Wii and I wasn't sure if my wallet should take the hit. My will to want this game is waning. The formula looks a little bit like that of Mega Man Legends from the PSX, which I did thoroughly enjoy, but I'm still unsure about this game.
If this gets an E.U release I'll have a look on it since I've been craving a console Rogue like for quite a while now.
Don't worry, "The Wiggle Waggle is WEAK in this one, Obi Wan."
Actually, while I started with the Wiimote and Nunchuck control scheme, I think this just screams for the Classic Controller. Are you ready for teh extent of the waggle control!?
Shake Wiimote to do Special Attack (so your wielded weapon's strong but slower attack).
That's it.
I think it is a lot more precise to do with with a button press since it's never clear in the heat of battle HOW MUCH you need to shake it to get it to trigger.
Also the camera controls in the Wiimote Scheme are a bit convoluted. The "Z" button, when in 3rd person view mode, will whip the camera to the direction you are currently facing (handy). The "Z" button also is used to "Lock-On" various baddies (also very handy). Here's, however, where this falls apart. I have some flying fish off camera biting me. No problem I whip my guy around to face them and hit the almighty "Z" button! Well...my character is facing them, even has one locked on and everything...but the camera is still facing toward my character head-on with the fish just off screen. I can't seem to use the "reset camera angle to the way my character is facing" aspect of the "Z" button while in the midst of combat! At least in the Classic Controller there are two separate buttons for locking on and camera angle resetting. In addition, with the Classic Controller's two little thumbsticks I foresee it far easier to control my character's movement and the camera all effortlessly.
Oh, and now somebody else at Siliconera has made a little first impressions review of it (the Wii version):
http://www.siliconera.com/2008/04/08/baroque-playtest-for-wii/
I'm in no position to judge if it's a roguelike since I'm not very familiar with the term, but I have to say that first uh, "dungeon" was might confusing for myself. I didn't realize what the purpose was (i'm not talking about the training dungeon).
However the atmosphere is fantastic, it's dark, and little freaky. But I do wish the combat system was a little smoother. Oh, and the manual that came with it smells a little funny to me.
EDIT:
Read the review that was on Siliconera and okay, so I do know what a roguelike is, just didn't realize it was under that name. And I've got a better idea for it, but I'll try playing again later with a different control scheme.
I have no problems using a GC controller if need be.
Not an option but you can use the Classic Controller (highly recommended).
DANG!
These guys are killing me every time!
http://www.atlus.com/baroque/ps2/ikei/ikei2/ikei10.htm
As far as I can tell it's all about timing as hitting them when all tucked in their shell doesn't do much.
I'm liking the concept of Environmental Features...basically some levels will have things like steam vents firing off at regular intervals or even panels that if stepped on fire out a fire ball that, if you work it right can be used AGAINST baddies. Also, unlike Shiren for the most part, monsters can set off traps as well.
So far I'm loving the game but getting VERY FRUSTRATED by the controls. I'm having all sorts of fun with stuff like trying to run away from a pile of baddies on my tail, and then whip around to throw something at them. I just can't pull this off for shit, trying to both get the right item ready and throw it quickly at the stampede coming down on me.
Gamestop has Arcana Hearts out TOMORROW, so I can't do my big $150 order tonight like I wanted to. Damn them...
Steam ID: slashx000______Twitter: @bill_at_zeboyd______ Facebook: Zeboyd Games
I KISS YOU!
They don't mention any sort of GC Controller support in the manual and *I THINK* I once saw an interview where a developer said outright, "No GC support!"
Can someone tell me more about the concept of roguelike lose everything when you die? How bad is it? Is it a part of the game (like, does it expect you to die a lot) or does it mean I will have to be extra careful when I try to do anything in an attempt not to die and have to start all over again?
I KISS YOU!
Truth be told, it's really more like getting slapped across the face with a stiff cock.
I haven't had that happen to me since college..
So is Baroque like playing Diablo 2 on hardcore on Blizznet where once you are dead you have to start from the very beginning again?
I KISS YOU!
from a Blue Whale
I can understand the one life, no continues concept in a game if it's possible to play cautiously and stay alive until the end, but if death is also required to advance the game, that seems a little unfair.
This game won't crack any top 5 sales lists, but I'd be more confident in it making money than I would in billion-dollar-budget AAA Generic Title #415 by a WIDE margin.
oof.
I KISS YOU!
Atlus is smart.
They know that their market is niche, and they budget and finance for that market.
They plan and expect most of their games to never exceed 100k copies sold in North America. So they keep their publishing deals cheap and only produce enough copies to fulfill that extremely small demand.
If and only if their initial runs sell out real fast and they get reorders do they increase production, and even then, they do so in small amounts until they stop getting reorders.
It's an extremely conservative business but they budget and plan for things so that they don't need huge sales numbers to be profitable and keep publishing (and in some cases developing) games.
In fact, most of their games don't crack 80k sales in North America, and probably the majority of them fall a round the 40k mark.
And yet, they continue publishing these games, in the same franchises no less, because they know what the market is, can budget, and publish for it, and eek out something profitable.
They will never aspire to throw out a $15 million dollar budget and expect to sell 500k copies of anything. They hope to sell as much as possible but they don't plan on it and do not need to. Their success is not measured by other companies' definitions of success and I would say that if ANY atlus game hits 100k sales it's a huge success for them.
So anyway, I love atlus because they are able to supply to a niche market and do so intelligently and stay in business and provide unique things.
This is why reviews, particularly their arbitrary number scores, are so retarded - ESPECIALLY when it comes to niche games.
The Nintendo Power reviewer has no idea what he's playing. He's judging this game by standards that it is not meant to be judged - he's essentially holding this game's genre against it by comparing it to another entirely - He's basically saying that this Orange is no good because it is not in every way an Apple.
This happens every time a shmup or 2D fighter comes out, and yes, every time a Roguelike comes out. Too many reviewers have their heads in these holes and have no idea what grounds they're supposed to be judging by.
And part of the problem is the fact that most reviewers think that it's their job to review a game from the perspective of "the average gamer" instead of by a "gamer who likes this genre." Or gameplay style. Which ultimately results in only larger, more accepted/mainstream genres getting better review scores on average while niche genres get panned simply because of what they are meant to be.
Now, not all reviewers do this, but it is a guarantee that at least some, like Nintendo Power have done here, will not know what they're doing and judge an Orange by Apple standards.
Steam ID: slashx000______Twitter: @bill_at_zeboyd______ Facebook: Zeboyd Games
Who can advise us on this?
I KISS YOU!
Like I said, it's not a punishment as much as it is a game mechanic. When you die, you're not sent "back to the start." You're kicked out of the tower, and new things might be available now. Don't be afraid to die in this game, and don't be one of those guys who hits Reset every time your HP reaches 0 (like me when I play Fire Emblem).
PSN: Wstfgl | GamerTag: An Evil Plan | Battle.net: FallenIdle#1970
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