After trying the ps2 version I must say that yes it is very much a niched game, not my cup of tea however. Certain aspects of the graphics combined with the rather lackluster combat invoked my fight or flight reflex after just a little while, had I been handcuffed to a radiator and been forced to watch the main character move around for I would most likely have gnawed my own arm off in order to escape.
If anyone can use the information - up here in Toronto, Gamecentre Yonge & Bloor had several copies in when I checked yesterday night. I'm heading back today to grab one, since I just cancelled the Amazon preorder that netted me precisely nothing.
Have you gone back yet? I'm heading there tomorrow, I really hope they still have it in stock.
If anyone can use the information - up here in Toronto, Gamecentre Yonge & Bloor had several copies in when I checked yesterday night. I'm heading back today to grab one, since I just cancelled the Amazon preorder that netted me precisely nothing.
Have you gone back yet? I'm heading there tomorrow, I really hope they still have it in stock.
I was there mid-afternoon today and they had at least three of each version. Edit: Although it would be 2 of the Wii version now that I bought one.
If anyone can use the information - up here in Toronto, Gamecentre Yonge & Bloor had several copies in when I checked yesterday night. I'm heading back today to grab one, since I just cancelled the Amazon preorder that netted me precisely nothing.
Have you gone back yet? I'm heading there tomorrow, I really hope they still have it in stock.
I was there mid-afternoon today and they had at least three of each version. Edit: Although it would be 2 of the Wii version now that I bought one.
Awesome. I'm hoping for the Wii version but in this case I'll be happy with whatever I can get.
If anyone can use the information - up here in Toronto, Gamecentre Yonge & Bloor had several copies in when I checked yesterday night. I'm heading back today to grab one, since I just cancelled the Amazon preorder that netted me precisely nothing.
Have you gone back yet? I'm heading there tomorrow, I really hope they still have it in stock.
I was there mid-afternoon today and they had at least three of each version. Edit: Although it would be 2 of the Wii version now that I bought one.
Awesome. I'm hoping for the Wii version but in this case I'll be happy with whatever I can get.
Sounds like my Ps2 version should be secure. Oh elevature when you go, could you keep a heads up if Arcana Hearts is there?
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VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
edited April 2008
this might be a biased thread to ask this in but, as a person new to roguelikes but VERY interested in them, should I go with this game or Shiren? probably gonna get one of them tomorrow.
this might be a biased thread to ask this in but, as a person new to roguelikes but VERY interested in them, should I go with this game or Shiren? probably gonna get one of them tomorrow.
Granted I haven't played Baroque yet, but you can't go wrong with Shiren. I've been addicted to it for a couple of weeks now, and have barely played anything else, including Brawl. It's my first roguelike, but I love it so much I've bought Izuna and Pokemon Mystery Dungeon, and plan to hunt down as many others as I can.
Also, since Baroque apparently doesn't have turn-based combat, and has the ability to reload from an old save if you die, it seems to stray pretty far from the roguelike mold. From what I've read, most console roguelikes are already a deviation from the PC ones, and Baroque seems even farther. I can't really make a real decision until I play it, but if you do get Shiren you won't be disappointed.
If anyone can use the information - up here in Toronto, Gamecentre Yonge & Bloor had several copies in when I checked yesterday night. I'm heading back today to grab one, since I just cancelled the Amazon preorder that netted me precisely nothing.
Have you gone back yet? I'm heading there tomorrow, I really hope they still have it in stock.
I was there mid-afternoon today and they had at least three of each version. Edit: Although it would be 2 of the Wii version now that I bought one.
Awesome. I'm hoping for the Wii version but in this case I'll be happy with whatever I can get.
Sounds like my Ps2 version should be secure. Oh elevature when you go, could you keep a heads up if Arcana Hearts is there?
Arcana Heart isn't in stock @ Gamecentre yet. I checked today and they said to come back next week.
I didn't want to walk out with only one game when I'd hoped for two, so I bought God Hand to accompany Baroque.
Edit: Variable, Baroque is definitely a bigger deviation from the mold than the DS roguelikes. I'd probably recommend starting with one of the DS games
And certainly I wouldn't expect a publisher to continue publishing consecutive games in a franchise when the franchise consistently sells less than 100k unless the publisher was budgeting properly for such a situation (see SMT franchise).
I cannot begin to imagine what they would be able to do with a proper multi-million budget.
Then again, we have to remember to include Japan numbers. The SMT series is more popular there than here.
EDIT: As in, it may offset the cost... Yeah, I might be getting confused here.
Publish about 10 really kick-ass games that are unique and fun as hell but flawed in at least one or two major ways, selling 40-50k copies of each and making a nice little profit.
I see this sentiment kind of often, and I don't get it. Atlus isn't built to produce a big budget game, and doing so is completely outside their business model - it'd be like expecting MS to release Windows as an open source OS or having some indy movie studio produce a mega-budget summer blockbuster action movie. It's just not compatible with their basic model.
Yeah, I know, but if the series gets to a point where it's really popular, then they could throw more quality spit and shine on it. Not that I mind the current model, I love my quirky games.
Actually, it appears to me that after Trauma Center Second Opinion's huge success, they did throw a lot more quality spit and shine into New Blood; they gave it 480p and true widescreen, and gave every line in the story quality voice acting; actual voice acting in a game that was good, and not bad.
Still, even with that, New Blood probably cost nothing to make. But it seems to me that they're willing to increase the production value of something slightly if they think that they'll be able to do better than usual with the game.
I don't know how well New Blood ended up doing; I know its initial first-month sales were typical Atlus sub-100k though, but I don't know where it ended up life-to-date sales.
Yes, there is a point to dying. If you reload every time you kick the bucket, you'll miss out on a lot of the story and never get the better endings.
Does dying do anything else?
Will the levels themselves be any different or will it really be like doing the exact same thing over and over? If thats the case then is there any advantage to dying besides the story? If I have the same items and have the same ability to level up and fight the same enemies each time, then the only way for me to get deeper in each time is to get my game playing ability up or be more careful as to not get hit?
Yes, there is a point to dying. If you reload every time you kick the bucket, you'll miss out on a lot of the story and never get the better endings.
Does dying do anything else?
Will the levels themselves be any different or will it really be like doing the exact same thing over and over? If thats the case then is there any advantage to dying besides the story? If I have the same items and have the same ability to level up and fight the same enemies each time, then the only way for me to get deeper in each time is to get my game playing ability up or be more careful as to not get hit?
I think I'm getting the hang of what it takes to move the story and it's not just dying or even simply a matter of clearing the tower a certain number of times. I think the biggest factor is speaking with all of the NPCs every chance you get. If you raced through the tower and missed some key NPC dialogs I think the game will have you going through the same (although randomized levels) tower before it lets you onto the next "stage" (the new and improved version of the tower). You also need to be sure and chat up the town hub NPCs every chance you get. I even noticed something a little weird with the unskippable cutscene when I cleared the tower...it was identical to what I'd seen last time (ahh shit, here I go again)...but then I noticed that at least a line or two of dialog was ever so slightly different so it wasn't merely a repeat of the cutscene I'd already seen (the gist of the dialog is identical but the final line of the protagonist was definitely different).
I mean I think they are going to overprint it, like they did with Growlanser. That is to say, demand will be even lower than their already carefully thought out expectations. The roguelike genre is so super niche.
I think the Growlanser print was over printed specifically because Atlus will not be reprinting it.
this might be a biased thread to ask this in but, as a person new to roguelikes but VERY interested in them, should I go with this game or Shiren? probably gonna get one of them tomorrow.
People who hate roguelikes are in love with Shiren. So...
I'm not certain what to make of this game. Despite finding the controls a pain in the ass I just sat down with it for 2 and a half hours completely unintentionally.
this might be a biased thread to ask this in but, as a person new to roguelikes but VERY interested in them, should I go with this game or Shiren? probably gonna get one of them tomorrow.
Dude, nice sig and avatar (I'd like to imagine my avatar is sort of a distorted David Cross)!
While I'm liking Baroque so far, Shiren is still the all time portable classic in a league of its own.
But at the same time, I guess it depends what you are looking for in your game. If you are a big fan of action RPGs, like a very trippy story, and like a very abusable save system (if you don't want to let the run end at the hands of some baddy deep in the maze, just jump to the Title Screen without saving when you die and you can re-load from your last save).
I see Baroque as the game to go for after you've played the fuck out of Shiren and are looking for more in the same vein, IMHO.
So when you die, you get booted out of the dungeon, and lose all your levels. Do you keep anything that makes the 2nd attempt any easier? Or just your knowledge of whats to come? Any nice loot you can hold onto which makes the first few levels a breeze?
So when you die, you get booted out of the dungeon, and lose all your levels. Do you keep anything that makes the 2nd attempt any easier? Or just your knowledge of whats to come? Any nice loot you can hold onto which makes the first few levels a breeze?
Knowledge doesn't matter so much as it's random every time. I guess there's the knowledge of how to deal with enemies. And no, you don't keep anything at all, from what I hear.
The point isn't for it to get easier, it's to advance the story and for new events to take place.
The point isn't for it to get easier, it's to advance the story and for new events to take place.
Yeah, but if I'm going to be replaying the same stuff over and over again each time I die, it'd like to get SOMETHING out of the hour or two I clocked before I got killed off.
I don't know, I have found that my "Self" has greater and greater +7 after it. Dunno if that does anything or is just a death counter. It'd be weird to be a death counter since it started at like -1.
The point isn't for it to get easier, it's to advance the story and for new events to take place.
Yeah, but if I'm going to be replaying the same stuff over and over again each time I die, it'd like to get SOMETHING out of the hour or two I clocked before I got killed off.
Perhaps this game isn't for me.
But a) you aren't replaying the "same stuff," the levels are different every time, and b) you are getting something, you're advancing the game. Picture it like an RTS, where you start from square one each map but it's different every time and you're progressing the story.
So when you die, you get booted out of the dungeon, and lose all your levels. Do you keep anything that makes the 2nd attempt any easier? Or just your knowledge of whats to come? Any nice loot you can hold onto which makes the first few levels a breeze?
You do always lose levels and items, but there are things to help. First there's a training dungeon run by the coffin guy. It gets larger later in the game, I've heard of people getting out of it at its largest at around lvl 6-7. It has items in it too which you can then take to Neuro.
There's a kid in town who can hold onto items across death, I've heard you can send items to him from the tower, but I've never done it... something about orbs of some kind. Also I've found a me... or mine... something like that... brand which claims to send the branded item back to the first floor upon death. That was a cool find. There might be other ways of keeping items too. I'm still working my way down for the first (full) time. I don't count that first one.
I don't know, I have found that my "Self" has greater and greater +7 after it. Dunno if that does anything or is just a death counter. It'd be weird to be a death counter since it started at like -1.
Dunno if this is a spoiler, I'm still early in the game (I think), but I'll put my theory in a tag.
I think that is a death count. The -1 represents the fact that you haven't started yet. Right after you die or finish the Neuro Tower that time (only 5 floors), they talk about it in terms of it being in your head. It's done to you in order to "burn your mission into your head" or something to that effect as Archangel put it at one point.
There's a kid in town who can hold onto items across death, I've heard you can send items to him from the tower, but I've never done it... something about orbs of some kind. Also I've found a me... or mine... something like that... brand which claims to send the branded item back to the first floor upon death. That was a cool find. There might be other ways of keeping items too. I'm still working my way down for the first (full) time. I don't count that first one.
You may have run by some of the consciousness orbs and not even known it. They are spheres which you find throughout the dungeon and you can throw one item into it. the first time you encounter one will be on floor -300 or -400. I can't remember the exact number but it's when you
first encounter
The girl who disappears through the illusion wall. Follow her into a room and their will be two floating blue orbs above her head that you can throw a item into each one.
You may also run into rooms that have giant metallic orbs in the middle which can also transfer items. The basic idea I get is if it's a orb, throw a item into it and see if it transfers.
Edit:The numbers is just how many time's you've run through the tower so far. I died on my first time and got a +1. Then I made a complete tower run through and am now at +2.
Ok, some impressions and info. There are plenty of impressions about this game but very little actual info. This is stuff I wanted to know before I bought it.
It is, surprisingly enough, a fairly by-the-book roguelike! I couldn't tell at all from the videos but having played it I can see that it has all the same elements of the classics: food, unidentified objects, curses that don't let you remove things, random dungeons, traps, the works.
The only main difference is that it's realtime. Just think of many roguelike mechanics made realtime - you have a VT "food meter" that slowly empties but also slowly heals your HP, and killing enemies usually leaves behind "corpses" that refill your meter. There are speed modifications that change how fast you can act relative to the enemies. Some enemies will steal from you and you have to chase them down to get your item back, though it's more frantic than in a turn-based RL.
You can equip a variety of weapons with different effects. Don't be misled by descriptions of only having two attacks; that's in action game terms. In roguelike terms, you only ever have one attack: bump into the enemy. Beyond the combos and charge attacks, each sword is different. I've come across one that has a chance to shoot a shockwave but attacks slower, and one that is weak but allows you to equip two of it (should you find a second one...which I didn't). And I found one that extends your combo.
You also equip robes/jackets as your main armor and they have similar differences such as elemental resistance. The only other thing I could find to equip was wings, which act as accessories in this game. Things like preventing status effects or giving extra XP per monster.
Brands are a neat addition. They're like one extra piece of equipment that you can't take off easily (got to have a specific item to do so) and they often have neat effects. You can start each level with 20 seconds of invincibility, or have everything automatically identified, or inherently shoot shockwaves with each attack. Actually they're a lot like traditional roguelike intrinsics, the kind you get from eating certain monsters.
Meat and seeds are all over the dungeon, and these heal HP and VT respectively. But there's a neat twist: if you eat them with a full meter they increase your maximum by a little. So should you save them for healing or make yourself stronger in the long run? (The answer is the latter, not just because it's a good RPG practice but because things will rot if not used.)
Bones are mostly like potions. They are consumable and stack with each other. They can warp you around the dungeon or cause status effects, and you can throw them at enemies to use the effects on them.
There are parasites which act as identify scrolls, IDing stuff you aren't sure about. Which is a good idea to make sure you don't eat bones that poison you or something. One difference here is that, if I remember right, a class of items is not identified permanently. You might identify the same kind of item multiple times.
There are...these things...that I don't remember what they are called, but they're like spell glyphs that can attack the enemies. Essentially, scrolls.
The graphics are obviously dated but you shouldn't be buying the game for this. Still, everything comes across fine and the atmosphere is well done. Enemies are freakish and deformed and the whole thing is macabre and gloomy, and I don't think it suffers too much from the graphics being what they are.
The music though...the music is awesome. Reminds me of Diablo 1 dungeons. Nothing that will get into your head, but still recognizable, freaky, and mood-setting. Sound is good too, and all text is voice acted well. The coffin man is hilariously deadpan.
I still can't make head or tail of the story, but the snippets I'm getting are neat. It all fits with the mood of the game.
I got pretty far, saw some cutscenes and just killed myself to see how death fits in. Everybody's dialogue changed, and the items I had sent back to town were there waiting for me. Part of the reason I killed myself was to empty it out, though...a ways down I got a strange item I wanted to try showing people in town, but I couldn't send it back because the item keeper was full! Let that be a warning. Apparently you can increase his capacity - it's at 5 now and I've read something about upwards of 25.
So yeah. I like it a lot and if you like roguelikes I think you would enjoy it!
Nice post and info. I'm really enjoying the game so far too. I really just need to bump this thread but....
I've really learned the best place to throw things is in hallways... Thanks to the bad camera the throwing was pretty frustrating at first, but now that I've limited myself to the hallways, it's making quite the difference.
I picked this game up through gamefly and tried it out last night. The music is good, it looks very good.
I didn't realize I was getting into a rogue-like when I started this game and it really detracted for me. Overall I'm still not digging this game very much. I might have been able to enjoy it more, but once I realized the best way to complete a floor is just to blitz to the end, that was it. The enemies in this game are dumb as rocks and slow as snails. Even running into one or two of them in a hallway is no big deal cause you plow into them, push them aside, and youre on the other side of them before they even get an attack off. Fighting in general is a losing battle. Your VT is going down constantly, and when it reaches 0 your health starts deteriorating. So time is always against you. Killing an enemy only yields a couple of VT though, barely enough to cover the time it takes to kill them. One hit and you are way in the negative.
Lets say you do things the normal way and clear the floors as you go down. By the time you get to floor 8-10 the enemies you run into get so vicious that even being near them for more than a couple seconds is a death sentence. The reward for defeating mobs is almost non-existant as well. The best items and gear you will find are just lying on the ground. Leveling up does almost nothing. Even at level 10 your health will be less than double what it was at level 1.
So the thing is, I can't shake the feeling that I'm missing something. I honest to god feel like this game looks so good, and the system so complex and unique, obviously made to be challenging that it must be something I'm doing wrong or thats going over my head and thats the reason I'm not enjoying it. Not because they made a solid game with a flawed combat system. But the more shots I give this game and the longer I play the more I think "No, I'm really not missing anything.Its just a messed up combat system that is destroying an otherwise really cool game." Its too bad too. Looks like it could have been a real winner.
Also, the story so far is extremely emo. From the intro, you are in a lab somewhere and hardwired to a machine and some doctors/scientists are running tests on you. So the whole thing is obviously in your head. As if solving the secrets of the "Neuro Tower" wasnt blatant enough. Also, you've destroyed the world, and everything is your fault, and you cant remember why. The angels will almost certainly turn against you at some point, probably when you figure out how to solve everything and try and right it. The scientists are probably trying to pull you out of a coma or something for an accident that happened and killed your parents that you blame yourself for.
You'll connect with the main character more if you smear your face in black mascara and empty half a bottle of visine into your eyes before playing this game.
Deaus on
We, are all heroes! You and boo and I... hamsters and rangers everywhere, rejoice!
Yeah, you are missing something. You shouldn't be having that much trouble with the game.
Eat hearts and flesh when your meters are full to increase the max, that's far better than just leveling. I don't know what you mean about VT meter troubles, I'm nearly constantly at full. And there are lots of items that reduce the speed that it empties.
You should only have trouble with monsters if you're skipping a significant chunk of each level. As long as you fully explore each floor and kill every monster, your levels will stay high and you'll find good items to help deal with later monsters. A big part of the game is using your items well.
Sure, you might be able to just run straight for the exit on every floor, but that's not the point. There are lots of people and events in the dungeon that you'll miss by running through it, and you won't advance the story at all. Every time you die or beat the dungeon, everyone says different things and new events can take place. Of course if you don't care about the story then there's little reason to play it anyway, unless you like playing randomized dungeons.
And from the few spoilers I've seen I don't think your story synopsis is right.
You should go through the training dungeon several times, you'll understand a lot more about how the items work afterwards.
Yep, I tried using items to increase my max VT/HP as well. Wasnt very effective. In any case it doesnt matter to me at this point. I sent the game back to gamefly. Ick.
Deaus on
We, are all heroes! You and boo and I... hamsters and rangers everywhere, rejoice!
I picked this game up through gamefly and tried it out last night. The music is good, it looks very good.
I didn't realize I was getting into a rogue-like when I started this game and it really detracted for me. Overall I'm still not digging this game very much. I might have been able to enjoy it more, but once I realized the best way to complete a floor is just to blitz to the end, that was it. The enemies in this game are dumb as rocks and slow as snails. Even running into one or two of them in a hallway is no big deal cause you plow into them, push them aside, and youre on the other side of them before they even get an attack off. Fighting in general is a losing battle. Your VT is going down constantly, and when it reaches 0 your health starts deteriorating. So time is always against you. Killing an enemy only yields a couple of VT though, barely enough to cover the time it takes to kill them. One hit and you are way in the negative.
Lets say you do things the normal way and clear the floors as you go down. By the time you get to floor 8-10 the enemies you run into get so vicious that even being near them for more than a couple seconds is a death sentence. The reward for defeating mobs is almost non-existant as well. The best items and gear you will find are just lying on the ground. Leveling up does almost nothing. Even at level 10 your health will be less than double what it was at level 1.
So the thing is, I can't shake the feeling that I'm missing something. I honest to god feel like this game looks so good, and the system so complex and unique, obviously made to be challenging that it must be something I'm doing wrong or thats going over my head and thats the reason I'm not enjoying it. Not because they made a solid game with a flawed combat system. But the more shots I give this game and the longer I play the more I think "No, I'm really not missing anything.Its just a messed up combat system that is destroying an otherwise really cool game." Its too bad too. Looks like it could have been a real winner.
Also, the story so far is extremely emo. From the intro, you are in a lab somewhere and hardwired to a machine and some doctors/scientists are running tests on you. So the whole thing is obviously in your head. As if solving the secrets of the "Neuro Tower" wasnt blatant enough. Also, you've destroyed the world, and everything is your fault, and you cant remember why. The angels will almost certainly turn against you at some point, probably when you figure out how to solve everything and try and right it. The scientists are probably trying to pull you out of a coma or something for an accident that happened and killed your parents that you blame yourself for.
You'll connect with the main character more if you smear your face in black mascara and empty half a bottle of visine into your eyes before playing this game.
I'll grant you the story is a little over the top goth but I love the duality of your statements with the game being pathetically easy and impossible at the same time. If you jump through the portal and avoid all fights then when you get in a case where you CAN'T just breeze past them you're toast. You need to scour each level for key items, NPC dialogs (yeah, more of the cheesey story), and to level up so you won't be trashed by the lower level guys instantly.
But all of this is moot (well, Hell, you already sent the game back so it is REALLY moot) if you don't like the Roguelike genre this game will appear incredibly repetitive and tedious.
I picked this game up through gamefly and tried it out last night. The music is good, it looks very good.
I didn't realize I was getting into a rogue-like when I started this game and it really detracted for me. Overall I'm still not digging this game very much. I might have been able to enjoy it more, but once I realized the best way to complete a floor is just to blitz to the end, that was it. The enemies in this game are dumb as rocks and slow as snails. Even running into one or two of them in a hallway is no big deal cause you plow into them, push them aside, and youre on the other side of them before they even get an attack off. Fighting in general is a losing battle. Your VT is going down constantly, and when it reaches 0 your health starts deteriorating. So time is always against you. Killing an enemy only yields a couple of VT though, barely enough to cover the time it takes to kill them. One hit and you are way in the negative.
Lets say you do things the normal way and clear the floors as you go down. By the time you get to floor 8-10 the enemies you run into get so vicious that even being near them for more than a couple seconds is a death sentence. The reward for defeating mobs is almost non-existant as well. The best items and gear you will find are just lying on the ground. Leveling up does almost nothing. Even at level 10 your health will be less than double what it was at level 1.
So the thing is, I can't shake the feeling that I'm missing something. I honest to god feel like this game looks so good, and the system so complex and unique, obviously made to be challenging that it must be something I'm doing wrong or thats going over my head and thats the reason I'm not enjoying it. Not because they made a solid game with a flawed combat system. But the more shots I give this game and the longer I play the more I think "No, I'm really not missing anything.Its just a messed up combat system that is destroying an otherwise really cool game." Its too bad too. Looks like it could have been a real winner.
Also, the story so far is extremely emo. From the intro, you are in a lab somewhere and hardwired to a machine and some doctors/scientists are running tests on you. So the whole thing is obviously in your head. As if solving the secrets of the "Neuro Tower" wasnt blatant enough. Also, you've destroyed the world, and everything is your fault, and you cant remember why. The angels will almost certainly turn against you at some point, probably when you figure out how to solve everything and try and right it. The scientists are probably trying to pull you out of a coma or something for an accident that happened and killed your parents that you blame yourself for.
You'll connect with the main character more if you smear your face in black mascara and empty half a bottle of visine into your eyes before playing this game.
I'll grant you the story is a little over the top goth but I love the duality of your statements with the game being pathetically easy and impossible at the same time. If you jump through the portal and avoid all fights then when you get in a case where you CAN'T just breeze past them you're toast. You need to scour each level for key items, NPC dialogs (yeah, more of the cheesey story), and to level up so you won't be trashed by the lower level guys instantly.
But all of this is moot (well, Hell, you already sent the game back so it is REALLY moot) if you don't like the Roguelike genre this game will appear incredibly repetitive and tedious.
Eh, maybe I wasn't clear. When I was refering to the game as hard, I meant the first 2-3 hours I played trying to work my way through the first tower. This is where I did follow most of the advice that has been posted here. I didnt kill one or two mobs a floor, I cleared them. I waited till I was low on health, then used all the items I had, minus a reserve or two, to bring me back to full and increase my max HP/VT. I tried to pick my fights one at a time. I kept my level up. It was difficult to the point that I went looking through gamefaqs.com looking for more tips. They dont have anything for this game as of last night btw. ;_;
When I say the game was easy, I meant the blitzting portion. That was extremely easy. I accomplished the equivalent of 3 hours of delving in about 15 minutes. If I'd tried I've little doubt I could have moved through entire floors that way before proceeding to the next floor, in order to find the NPCs on the level. But I wasnt about to play the game that way.
Anyways, I'm not trying to trash the game. Like I said it looks very polished, music is great and its clear that a lot of effort went into it. Just not my cup of tea.
Deaus on
We, are all heroes! You and boo and I... hamsters and rangers everywhere, rejoice!
I picked this game up through gamefly and tried it out last night. The music is good, it looks very good.
I didn't realize I was getting into a rogue-like when I started this game and it really detracted for me. Overall I'm still not digging this game very much. I might have been able to enjoy it more, but once I realized the best way to complete a floor is just to blitz to the end, that was it. The enemies in this game are dumb as rocks and slow as snails. Even running into one or two of them in a hallway is no big deal cause you plow into them, push them aside, and youre on the other side of them before they even get an attack off. Fighting in general is a losing battle. Your VT is going down constantly, and when it reaches 0 your health starts deteriorating. So time is always against you. Killing an enemy only yields a couple of VT though, barely enough to cover the time it takes to kill them. One hit and you are way in the negative.
Lets say you do things the normal way and clear the floors as you go down. By the time you get to floor 8-10 the enemies you run into get so vicious that even being near them for more than a couple seconds is a death sentence. The reward for defeating mobs is almost non-existant as well. The best items and gear you will find are just lying on the ground. Leveling up does almost nothing. Even at level 10 your health will be less than double what it was at level 1.
So the thing is, I can't shake the feeling that I'm missing something. I honest to god feel like this game looks so good, and the system so complex and unique, obviously made to be challenging that it must be something I'm doing wrong or thats going over my head and thats the reason I'm not enjoying it. Not because they made a solid game with a flawed combat system. But the more shots I give this game and the longer I play the more I think "No, I'm really not missing anything.Its just a messed up combat system that is destroying an otherwise really cool game." Its too bad too. Looks like it could have been a real winner.
Also, the story so far is extremely emo. From the intro, you are in a lab somewhere and hardwired to a machine and some doctors/scientists are running tests on you. So the whole thing is obviously in your head. As if solving the secrets of the "Neuro Tower" wasnt blatant enough. Also, you've destroyed the world, and everything is your fault, and you cant remember why. The angels will almost certainly turn against you at some point, probably when you figure out how to solve everything and try and right it. The scientists are probably trying to pull you out of a coma or something for an accident that happened and killed your parents that you blame yourself for.
You'll connect with the main character more if you smear your face in black mascara and empty half a bottle of visine into your eyes before playing this game.
I'll grant you the story is a little over the top goth but I love the duality of your statements with the game being pathetically easy and impossible at the same time. If you jump through the portal and avoid all fights then when you get in a case where you CAN'T just breeze past them you're toast. You need to scour each level for key items, NPC dialogs (yeah, more of the cheesey story), and to level up so you won't be trashed by the lower level guys instantly.
But all of this is moot (well, Hell, you already sent the game back so it is REALLY moot) if you don't like the Roguelike genre this game will appear incredibly repetitive and tedious.
Eh, maybe I wasn't clear. When I was refering to the game as hard, I meant the first 2-3 hours I played trying to work my way through the first tower. This is where I did follow most of the advice that has been posted here. I didnt kill one or two mobs a floor, I cleared them. I waited till I was low on health, then used all the items I had, minus a reserve or two, to bring me back to full and increase my max HP/VT. I tried to pick my fights one at a time. I kept my level up. It was difficult to the point that I went looking through gamefaqs.com looking for more tips. They dont have anything for this game as of last night btw. ;_;
When I say the game was easy, I meant the blitzting portion. That was extremely easy. I accomplished the equivalent of 3 hours of delving in about 15 minutes. If I'd tried I've little doubt I could have moved through entire floors that way before proceeding to the next floor, in order to find the NPCs on the level. But I wasnt about to play the game that way.
Anyways, I'm not trying to trash the game. Like I said it looks very polished, music is great and its clear that a lot of effort went into it. Just not my cup of tea.
Am in love with this game. Trying and giving every other item to various creatures, even if they asked for it or not!
Every time something changes I'm hip-hop ready to delve into the tower again.
Never have a problem spending time getting to the bottom floor to check and see if anything has changed.
It's a crazy mix of BoF5 (which if my favorite Breath of Fire game. I know I know, for shame.) and Rule of Rose.
The classic controller made all the difference in the world to me. As much as I abhor the fact that every Wii accessory feels like a cheap piece of plastic junk, and that you have to plug the controller into the Wiimote, and waste even more battery-life.
Um.
And now here is a quick question, which might be spoilerish, but I'm not going to tag as such... what exactly have you given the guy with the "empty box" in the dungeon? I've tried a variety of combo items on him, but he only seems to want his box. I've even tried saving up one variety of each to hand to him?
Probably am missing something ridiculously easy in the hub town, or from a fragment of information he's given me.
Am in love with this game. Trying and giving every other item to various creatures, even if they asked for it or not!
Every time something changes I'm hip-hop ready to delve into the tower again.
Never have a problem spending time getting to the bottom floor to check and see if anything has changed.
It's a crazy mix of BoF5 (which if my favorite Breath of Fire game. I know I know, for shame.) and Rule of Rose.
The classic controller made all the difference in the world to me. As much as I abhor the fact that every Wii accessory feels like a cheap piece of plastic junk, and that you have to plug the controller into the Wiimote, and waste even more battery-life.
Um.
And now here is a quick question, which might be spoilerish, but I'm not going to tag as such... what exactly have you given the guy with the "empty box" in the dungeon? I've tried a variety of combo items on him, but he only seems to want his box. I've even tried saving up one variety of each to hand to him?
Probably am missing something ridiculously easy in the hub town, or from a fragment of information he's given me.
The real basic use I've found with him is give him ANY box and he'll give you a random box in return! Beyond that rumor has it his daughter is one of the townies, perhaps giving her thought crystal to him will do something.
This game really is quite something. I really like how they handled death. Since it moves the story along, there is an incentive to just keep trucking along instead of reloading your last save, or you can just do the reload and keep going with your dungeon run if you think you had a good thing going.
Yep, I tried using items to increase my max VT/HP as well. Wasnt very effective. In any case it doesnt matter to me at this point. I sent the game back to gamefly. Ick.
I'm in the same boat. VT dropping while exploring the town? To hell with that. I played for about an hour and was fed up.
I guess it just isn't for me.
There is also the problem them going back to 480i is really, really hard. Perhaps I am shallow or spoiled, but I just couldn't do it.
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Have you gone back yet? I'm heading there tomorrow, I really hope they still have it in stock.
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Awesome. I'm hoping for the Wii version but in this case I'll be happy with whatever I can get.
XBL |Steam | PSN | last.fm
Sounds like my Ps2 version should be secure. Oh elevature when you go, could you keep a heads up if Arcana Hearts is there?
Will do.
Granted I haven't played Baroque yet, but you can't go wrong with Shiren. I've been addicted to it for a couple of weeks now, and have barely played anything else, including Brawl. It's my first roguelike, but I love it so much I've bought Izuna and Pokemon Mystery Dungeon, and plan to hunt down as many others as I can.
Also, since Baroque apparently doesn't have turn-based combat, and has the ability to reload from an old save if you die, it seems to stray pretty far from the roguelike mold. From what I've read, most console roguelikes are already a deviation from the PC ones, and Baroque seems even farther. I can't really make a real decision until I play it, but if you do get Shiren you won't be disappointed.
XBL |Steam | PSN | last.fm
I didn't want to walk out with only one game when I'd hoped for two, so I bought God Hand to accompany Baroque.
Edit: Variable, Baroque is definitely a bigger deviation from the mold than the DS roguelikes. I'd probably recommend starting with one of the DS games
Yeah, I know, but if the series gets to a point where it's really popular, then they could throw more quality spit and shine on it. Not that I mind the current model, I love my quirky games.
Still, even with that, New Blood probably cost nothing to make. But it seems to me that they're willing to increase the production value of something slightly if they think that they'll be able to do better than usual with the game.
I don't know how well New Blood ended up doing; I know its initial first-month sales were typical Atlus sub-100k though, but I don't know where it ended up life-to-date sales.
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Does dying do anything else?
Will the levels themselves be any different or will it really be like doing the exact same thing over and over? If thats the case then is there any advantage to dying besides the story? If I have the same items and have the same ability to level up and fight the same enemies each time, then the only way for me to get deeper in each time is to get my game playing ability up or be more careful as to not get hit?
I KISS YOU!
I think I'm getting the hang of what it takes to move the story and it's not just dying or even simply a matter of clearing the tower a certain number of times. I think the biggest factor is speaking with all of the NPCs every chance you get. If you raced through the tower and missed some key NPC dialogs I think the game will have you going through the same (although randomized levels) tower before it lets you onto the next "stage" (the new and improved version of the tower). You also need to be sure and chat up the town hub NPCs every chance you get. I even noticed something a little weird with the unskippable cutscene when I cleared the tower...it was identical to what I'd seen last time (ahh shit, here I go again)...but then I noticed that at least a line or two of dialog was ever so slightly different so it wasn't merely a repeat of the cutscene I'd already seen (the gist of the dialog is identical but the final line of the protagonist was definitely different).
I think the Growlanser print was over printed specifically because Atlus will not be reprinting it.
People who hate roguelikes are in love with Shiren. So...
I'm not certain what to make of this game. Despite finding the controls a pain in the ass I just sat down with it for 2 and a half hours completely unintentionally.
Dude, nice sig and avatar (I'd like to imagine my avatar is sort of a distorted David Cross)!
While I'm liking Baroque so far, Shiren is still the all time portable classic in a league of its own.
But at the same time, I guess it depends what you are looking for in your game. If you are a big fan of action RPGs, like a very trippy story, and like a very abusable save system (if you don't want to let the run end at the hands of some baddy deep in the maze, just jump to the Title Screen without saving when you die and you can re-load from your last save).
I see Baroque as the game to go for after you've played the fuck out of Shiren and are looking for more in the same vein, IMHO.
So when you die, you get booted out of the dungeon, and lose all your levels. Do you keep anything that makes the 2nd attempt any easier? Or just your knowledge of whats to come? Any nice loot you can hold onto which makes the first few levels a breeze?
The point isn't for it to get easier, it's to advance the story and for new events to take place.
You do always lose levels and items, but there are things to help. First there's a training dungeon run by the coffin guy. It gets larger later in the game, I've heard of people getting out of it at its largest at around lvl 6-7. It has items in it too which you can then take to Neuro.
There's a kid in town who can hold onto items across death, I've heard you can send items to him from the tower, but I've never done it... something about orbs of some kind. Also I've found a me... or mine... something like that... brand which claims to send the branded item back to the first floor upon death. That was a cool find. There might be other ways of keeping items too. I'm still working my way down for the first (full) time. I don't count that first one.
Dunno if this is a spoiler, I'm still early in the game (I think), but I'll put my theory in a tag.
first encounter
Edit:The numbers is just how many time's you've run through the tower so far. I died on my first time and got a +1. Then I made a complete tower run through and am now at +2.
It is, surprisingly enough, a fairly by-the-book roguelike! I couldn't tell at all from the videos but having played it I can see that it has all the same elements of the classics: food, unidentified objects, curses that don't let you remove things, random dungeons, traps, the works.
The only main difference is that it's realtime. Just think of many roguelike mechanics made realtime - you have a VT "food meter" that slowly empties but also slowly heals your HP, and killing enemies usually leaves behind "corpses" that refill your meter. There are speed modifications that change how fast you can act relative to the enemies. Some enemies will steal from you and you have to chase them down to get your item back, though it's more frantic than in a turn-based RL.
You can equip a variety of weapons with different effects. Don't be misled by descriptions of only having two attacks; that's in action game terms. In roguelike terms, you only ever have one attack: bump into the enemy. Beyond the combos and charge attacks, each sword is different. I've come across one that has a chance to shoot a shockwave but attacks slower, and one that is weak but allows you to equip two of it (should you find a second one...which I didn't). And I found one that extends your combo.
You also equip robes/jackets as your main armor and they have similar differences such as elemental resistance. The only other thing I could find to equip was wings, which act as accessories in this game. Things like preventing status effects or giving extra XP per monster.
Brands are a neat addition. They're like one extra piece of equipment that you can't take off easily (got to have a specific item to do so) and they often have neat effects. You can start each level with 20 seconds of invincibility, or have everything automatically identified, or inherently shoot shockwaves with each attack. Actually they're a lot like traditional roguelike intrinsics, the kind you get from eating certain monsters.
Meat and seeds are all over the dungeon, and these heal HP and VT respectively. But there's a neat twist: if you eat them with a full meter they increase your maximum by a little. So should you save them for healing or make yourself stronger in the long run? (The answer is the latter, not just because it's a good RPG practice but because things will rot if not used.)
Bones are mostly like potions. They are consumable and stack with each other. They can warp you around the dungeon or cause status effects, and you can throw them at enemies to use the effects on them.
There are parasites which act as identify scrolls, IDing stuff you aren't sure about. Which is a good idea to make sure you don't eat bones that poison you or something. One difference here is that, if I remember right, a class of items is not identified permanently. You might identify the same kind of item multiple times.
There are...these things...that I don't remember what they are called, but they're like spell glyphs that can attack the enemies. Essentially, scrolls.
The graphics are obviously dated but you shouldn't be buying the game for this. Still, everything comes across fine and the atmosphere is well done. Enemies are freakish and deformed and the whole thing is macabre and gloomy, and I don't think it suffers too much from the graphics being what they are.
The music though...the music is awesome. Reminds me of Diablo 1 dungeons. Nothing that will get into your head, but still recognizable, freaky, and mood-setting. Sound is good too, and all text is voice acted well. The coffin man is hilariously deadpan.
I still can't make head or tail of the story, but the snippets I'm getting are neat. It all fits with the mood of the game.
I got pretty far, saw some cutscenes and just killed myself to see how death fits in. Everybody's dialogue changed, and the items I had sent back to town were there waiting for me. Part of the reason I killed myself was to empty it out, though...a ways down I got a strange item I wanted to try showing people in town, but I couldn't send it back because the item keeper was full! Let that be a warning. Apparently you can increase his capacity - it's at 5 now and I've read something about upwards of 25.
So yeah. I like it a lot and if you like roguelikes I think you would enjoy it!
I've really learned the best place to throw things is in hallways... Thanks to the bad camera the throwing was pretty frustrating at first, but now that I've limited myself to the hallways, it's making quite the difference.
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I didn't realize I was getting into a rogue-like when I started this game and it really detracted for me. Overall I'm still not digging this game very much. I might have been able to enjoy it more, but once I realized the best way to complete a floor is just to blitz to the end, that was it. The enemies in this game are dumb as rocks and slow as snails. Even running into one or two of them in a hallway is no big deal cause you plow into them, push them aside, and youre on the other side of them before they even get an attack off. Fighting in general is a losing battle. Your VT is going down constantly, and when it reaches 0 your health starts deteriorating. So time is always against you. Killing an enemy only yields a couple of VT though, barely enough to cover the time it takes to kill them. One hit and you are way in the negative.
Lets say you do things the normal way and clear the floors as you go down. By the time you get to floor 8-10 the enemies you run into get so vicious that even being near them for more than a couple seconds is a death sentence. The reward for defeating mobs is almost non-existant as well. The best items and gear you will find are just lying on the ground. Leveling up does almost nothing. Even at level 10 your health will be less than double what it was at level 1.
So the thing is, I can't shake the feeling that I'm missing something. I honest to god feel like this game looks so good, and the system so complex and unique, obviously made to be challenging that it must be something I'm doing wrong or thats going over my head and thats the reason I'm not enjoying it. Not because they made a solid game with a flawed combat system. But the more shots I give this game and the longer I play the more I think "No, I'm really not missing anything.Its just a messed up combat system that is destroying an otherwise really cool game." Its too bad too. Looks like it could have been a real winner.
Also, the story so far is extremely emo. From the intro, you are in a lab somewhere and hardwired to a machine and some doctors/scientists are running tests on you. So the whole thing is obviously in your head. As if solving the secrets of the "Neuro Tower" wasnt blatant enough. Also, you've destroyed the world, and everything is your fault, and you cant remember why. The angels will almost certainly turn against you at some point, probably when you figure out how to solve everything and try and right it. The scientists are probably trying to pull you out of a coma or something for an accident that happened and killed your parents that you blame yourself for.
You'll connect with the main character more if you smear your face in black mascara and empty half a bottle of visine into your eyes before playing this game.
Eat hearts and flesh when your meters are full to increase the max, that's far better than just leveling. I don't know what you mean about VT meter troubles, I'm nearly constantly at full. And there are lots of items that reduce the speed that it empties.
You should only have trouble with monsters if you're skipping a significant chunk of each level. As long as you fully explore each floor and kill every monster, your levels will stay high and you'll find good items to help deal with later monsters. A big part of the game is using your items well.
Sure, you might be able to just run straight for the exit on every floor, but that's not the point. There are lots of people and events in the dungeon that you'll miss by running through it, and you won't advance the story at all. Every time you die or beat the dungeon, everyone says different things and new events can take place. Of course if you don't care about the story then there's little reason to play it anyway, unless you like playing randomized dungeons.
And from the few spoilers I've seen I don't think your story synopsis is right.
You should go through the training dungeon several times, you'll understand a lot more about how the items work afterwards.
I'll grant you the story is a little over the top goth but I love the duality of your statements with the game being pathetically easy and impossible at the same time. If you jump through the portal and avoid all fights then when you get in a case where you CAN'T just breeze past them you're toast. You need to scour each level for key items, NPC dialogs (yeah, more of the cheesey story), and to level up so you won't be trashed by the lower level guys instantly.
But all of this is moot (well, Hell, you already sent the game back so it is REALLY moot) if you don't like the Roguelike genre this game will appear incredibly repetitive and tedious.
Eh, maybe I wasn't clear. When I was refering to the game as hard, I meant the first 2-3 hours I played trying to work my way through the first tower. This is where I did follow most of the advice that has been posted here. I didnt kill one or two mobs a floor, I cleared them. I waited till I was low on health, then used all the items I had, minus a reserve or two, to bring me back to full and increase my max HP/VT. I tried to pick my fights one at a time. I kept my level up. It was difficult to the point that I went looking through gamefaqs.com looking for more tips. They dont have anything for this game as of last night btw. ;_;
When I say the game was easy, I meant the blitzting portion. That was extremely easy. I accomplished the equivalent of 3 hours of delving in about 15 minutes. If I'd tried I've little doubt I could have moved through entire floors that way before proceeding to the next floor, in order to find the NPCs on the level. But I wasnt about to play the game that way.
Anyways, I'm not trying to trash the game. Like I said it looks very polished, music is great and its clear that a lot of effort went into it. Just not my cup of tea.
Fair enough then.
Every time something changes I'm hip-hop ready to delve into the tower again.
Never have a problem spending time getting to the bottom floor to check and see if anything has changed.
It's a crazy mix of BoF5 (which if my favorite Breath of Fire game. I know I know, for shame.) and Rule of Rose.
The classic controller made all the difference in the world to me. As much as I abhor the fact that every Wii accessory feels like a cheap piece of plastic junk, and that you have to plug the controller into the Wiimote, and waste even more battery-life.
Um.
And now here is a quick question, which might be spoilerish, but I'm not going to tag as such... what exactly have you given the guy with the "empty box" in the dungeon? I've tried a variety of combo items on him, but he only seems to want his box. I've even tried saving up one variety of each to hand to him?
Probably am missing something ridiculously easy in the hub town, or from a fragment of information he's given me.
and since I'm moving, I won't get to play this till mid may.
=/
least it sounds pretty good
The music I've heard thus far is alright though the original tops it easily.
I'm in the same boat. VT dropping while exploring the town? To hell with that. I played for about an hour and was fed up.
I guess it just isn't for me.
There is also the problem them going back to 480i is really, really hard. Perhaps I am shallow or spoiled, but I just couldn't do it.