Yeah, but he's still a vain, cruel wretch. Just because he's the narrator it doesn't mean he's not a villain.
Protagonist/Antagonist has nothing to do with Hero or Villain status. It's late, so the only example I can think of is Light from Death Note as a Protagonist Villain.
Light would be an heroic antagonist, because he's the main character's foil but a good guy. A villanous protagonist would be, say, MacBeth, or someone evil who's nonetheless the main character.
Whooo lit terminology.
*edit* shit I am retarded and mixed up Light and L. NEVER MIND FOLKS.
Perhaps "bad" is the wrong word to use - a compelling antagonist. In recent years I tend find myself often hoping that somehow the bad guy of a piece will get to put his plan into action, just because I want to see what it was and what they would do afterwards.
Basically what I'm wondering is, what sorts of opposing forces are interesting to watch? What are some examples of villains or antagonists who actually had interesting ideologies, or at least didn't make the reason the "good guys" should win so obvious?
As an assassin who leads an empty life without any emotions, his ideology was that the reason he was the best fighter (that he knew) was because he had given up on other kinds of pursuits like feelings and friendship and hobbies and instead developed his fighting talents.
So when he faces Drizzt he sees someone who is equal to him in fighting skills and still has the time and mental energy to develop friendships and care for others. This is the reason behind his strong rivalry with Drizzt; to admit that they're equal would admit that Artemis wasted his life, so he tries over and over to prove that he's the better fighter.
For this reason, Entreri is one of the best developed antagonists in the fantasy universe, in my opinion.
Whatever happens to Entreri? Doesn't he eventually realize he can never beat Drizzt because of that +2 dexterity racial bonus and just give up on being a master assassin?
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SmasherStarting to get dizzyRegistered Userregular
Yeah, but he's still a vain, cruel wretch. Just because he's the narrator it doesn't mean he's not a villain.
Protagonist/Antagonist has nothing to do with Hero or Villain status. It's late, so the only example I can think of is Light from Death Note as a Protagonist Villain.
Light would be an heroic antagonist, because he's the main character's foil but a good guy. A villanous protagonist would be, say, MacBeth, or someone evil who's nonetheless the main character.
Whooo lit terminology.
I don't follow you; did you mean L instead of Light? Light is definitely the main character in Death Note, so he fits the villainous protagonist role perfectly.
Yeah, but he's still a vain, cruel wretch. Just because he's the narrator it doesn't mean he's not a villain.
Protagonist/Antagonist has nothing to do with Hero or Villain status. It's late, so the only example I can think of is Light from Death Note as a Protagonist Villain.
Light would be an heroic antagonist, because he's the main character's foil but a good guy. A villanous protagonist would be, say, MacBeth, or someone evil who's nonetheless the main character.
Whooo lit terminology.
I don't follow you; did you mean L instead of Light? Light is definitely the main character in Death Note, so he fits the villainous protagonist role perfectly.
Shit I've only seen that show like once. Yes. Yes I did.
Guys, no, you can't label L and Light as hero/villain. They're both people with very strong senses of justice that have conflicting views on the efficiency and integrity of the judicial system.
I mean, L consistently states that he wants Kira to recieve the death penalty. They're not that different.
I always liked the characters of Patrick Bateman from American Psycho and Hannibal Lecter from Silence of the Lambs (and the other movies/novels, though I liked SotL the best). Patrick Bateman is attractive and athletic, wealthy and up-and-coming, young, and intelligent, and Lecter is a brilliant psychiatrist, as well as an apt forensic profiler. These characters would usually represent the best of us, and would be people that more normally would demand our respect and admiration, if not for their deep seated blood lust, and their hidden tainting. I always liked these characters because they suggest the human condition; that no one, no one is perfect, not me or you or anyone, no matter what airs people put on to suggest otherwise, and being deluded by those airs ultimately makes you foolish.
and I don't care what you guys say, he is and will always be a villian in my eyes.
Dexter is only a vigilante tangentially. He has a deep need to murder people and chop them up, doing it to evil people was only thrown in by Harry.
Having the need to kill people and using it only on those deserving it isn't a great deal different from having the tools to kill and only using them on those deserving.
Actually, it is, because by nature of it being a "need" it's something he is compelled to do.
It comes down to motives, and its why I think Dexter is such an interesting character (and villain). He is a complete sociopath, empty of feeling with a innate need to commit horrible murders, but he has been crafted into an 'avenging angel'. Perhaps a bit of the redeemed villain theme.
I think characters like Dexter, The Punisher, Charles Bronson in the Death Wish movies, and the like are anti-heroes.
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Get free money from the government to open up a coffee shop!
Guys, no, you can't label L and Light as hero/villain. They're both people with very strong senses of justice that have conflicting views on the efficiency and integrity of the judicial system.
I mean, L consistently states that he wants Kira to recieve the death penalty. They're not that different.
I always liked the characters of Patrick Bateman from American Psycho and Hannibal Lecter from Silence of the Lambs (and the other movies/novels, though I liked SotL the best). Patrick Bateman is attractive and athletic, wealthy and up-and-coming, young, and intelligent, and Lecter is a brilliant psychiatrist, as well as an apt forensic profiler. These characters would usually represent the best of us, and would be people that more normally would demand our respect and admiration, if not for their deep seated blood lust, and their hidden tainting. I always like these characters because they suggest the human condition; that no one, no one is perfect, not me or you or anyone, no matter what airs people put on to suggest otherwise, and being deluded by those airs ultimately makes you foolish.
Regarding Bateman -
He was crazy, wasn't he? None of that shit actually happened, like when the ATM asked for a stray cat. He wasn't a bad guy, he was just completely and totally insane.
Guys, no, you can't label L and Light as hero/villain. They're both people with very strong senses of justice that have conflicting views on the efficiency and integrity of the judicial system.
I mean, L consistently states that he wants Kira to recieve the death penalty. They're not that different.
what
It's like this. L believes firmly in the judicial system, in due process. Light just wants to kill criminals. Pretty much all of them. And he figures any problems with this course of action (IE; innocent people being killed) will smooth themselves out as people will simply stop committing crime because criminals are dropping dead.
Guys, no, you can't label L and Light as hero/villain. They're both people with very strong senses of justice that have conflicting views on the efficiency and integrity of the judicial system.
I mean, L consistently states that he wants Kira to recieve the death penalty. They're not that different.
what
It's like this. L believes firmly in the judicial system, in due process. Light just wants to kill criminals. Pretty much all of them. And he figures any problems with this course of action (IE; innocent people being killed) will smooth themselves out as people will simply stop committing crime because criminals are dropping dead.
Those are completely different ideals, believing in the law and believing in murder.
Guys, no, you can't label L and Light as hero/villain. They're both people with very strong senses of justice that have conflicting views on the efficiency and integrity of the judicial system.
I mean, L consistently states that he wants Kira to recieve the death penalty. They're not that different.
what
It's like this. L believes firmly in the judicial system, in due process. Light just wants to kill criminals. Pretty much all of them. And he figures any problems with this course of action (IE; innocent people being killed) will smooth themselves out as people will simply stop committing crime because criminals are dropping dead.
Those are completely different ideals, believing in the law and believing in murder.
Nobody believes in murder. By nature of the word murder, it's unjustified. Obviously he sees it as justified.
Really, Light believes less in an idea of "justice", and more in a system of severe and certain punishment to simply prevent crime. He's not evil. He doesn't really stand to gain anything. He just wants to make the world a better place.
Many of the people he kills are undeserving of death and some are innocent people.
Fuck that. I don't care what he is trying to do. That's like me saying "I shall now get rid of AIDs by murdering everyone with the disease" and thinking it is right.
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SmasherStarting to get dizzyRegistered Userregular
Guys, no, you can't label L and Light as hero/villain. They're both people with very strong senses of justice that have conflicting views on the efficiency and integrity of the judicial system.
I mean, L consistently states that he wants Kira to recieve the death penalty. They're not that different.
By the end of the series Light absolutely is evil. He starts off being an arguably good person who's doing something wrong for the greater good, but very rapidly deteriorates into a complete psychopath. Just look at the difference between
the way he acts when he loses his memories and how he acts after he regains them.
The fact that he believes he's good doesn't make it so.
As for L, while he has his flaws he's trying to capture a mass murderer. While I'm personally against the death penalty I don't think someone's evil just because they support it, and if one is going to put anyone to death someone who kills hundreds if not thousands of people is gonna be pretty close to the top of the list.
The fact that he believes he's good doesn't make it so.
I disagree.
Spectre: Sure that's moral, if your objective is really and truly to eradicate the disease. I'd try to stop you but I wouldn't say you're evil for it.
So you're saying that if I just went out and started murdering people with AIDs as an effort to stop the disease from spreading, you would think me non-evil?
There is absolutely no way Light's approach to dealing with crime was good.
How many people get arrested for a crime that they didn't commit? How many people get convicted of a crime they didn't commit?
Light wasn't even giving folks a chance to GO to trial - he just killed them as they were announced as being arrested. A very large number of innocent people were no doubt killed by him even when he was still under the delusion of a noble cause.
Thinking about it though it kind of fits into Japanese society and how their legal system is construed. It's basically assumed that if you are a suspect you are guilty - the Phoenix Wright games are in a way also a commentary on this. But I digress.
Many of the people he kills are undeserving of death and some are innocent people.
Fuck that. I don't care what he is trying to do. That's like me saying "I shall now get rid of AIDs by murdering everyone with the disease" and thinking it is right.
I'd rather see a few people killed to cure an epidemic.
He just has human flaws. Give anyone the power of a God and chances are it will eventually get to them. It could happen to anyone.
The fact that he believes he's good doesn't make it so.
I disagree.
Spectre: Sure that's moral, if your objective is really and truly to eradicate the disease. I'd try to stop you but I wouldn't say you're evil for it.
So you're saying that if I just went out and started murdering people with AIDs as an effort to stop the disease from spreading, you would think me non-evil?
Again, if eradicating the disease was truly your intention and you reasonably believed you could actually accomplish this (If you don't, you're deliberately killing people in vain and thus your intentions can not possibly be pure) then yes.
There is absolutely no way Light's approach to dealing with crime was good.
How many people get arrested for a crime that they didn't commit? How many people get convicted of a crime they didn't commit?
That's not the point. It's not the point. Their deaths served a purpose and some just happened to be unfortunate enough to be lumped into the category of the other criminals. It's the same reason why our judicial system has standards and regulations. Not every case can be judged and if Light took the time to evaluate every single person before killing them there would be no impact.
I'll argue this all night so...instead i'm off to bed. I may just be homicidal as I can easily see myself becoming as vain as someone like Bateman.
The fact that he believes he's good doesn't make it so.
I disagree.
Spectre: Sure that's moral, if your objective is really and truly to eradicate the disease. I'd try to stop you but I wouldn't say you're evil for it.
So you're saying that if I just went out and started murdering people with AIDs as an effort to stop the disease from spreading, you would think me non-evil?
Again, if eradicating the disease was truly your intention and you reasonably believed you could actually accomplish this (If you don't, you're deliberately killing people in vain and thus your intentions can not possibly be pure) then yes.
Evil would be...I don't know torturing people for fun. Not attempting to cure an epidemic by doing something that you believe and can logically prove would truly make an improvement in the end.
Just because I'm not going to say you're hypothetically evil doesn't mean I condone your hypothetical conduct. I'd still try to stop you, because hey, I don't think that's the best way to deal with the disease. But if you're trying to help people then I don't see how I can say you're evil.
Or if, by killing enough hosts of the disease, the disease would be intimidated enough not to try and enter humans anymore. You know, kinda like how the hand of god mass murdering criminals would keep people from committing crime.
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SmasherStarting to get dizzyRegistered Userregular
edited June 2008
There are degrees of evil. Someone can be evil without being a maniacal, laughing-as-they-kill-people murderer.
There are degrees of evil. Someone can be evil without being a maniacal, laughing-as-they-kill-people murderer.
Oh wait, Light is that.
He doesn't laugh because he kills. He laughs because his power is bringing his plan to bring complete justice to the world to fruition. His laughter is not because he killed but because of what he accomplished. Except that one time, he just went crazy with power then.
God damn it guys stop debating this I want to sleep.
Or if, by killing enough hosts of the disease, the disease would be intimidated enough not to try and enter humans anymore. You know, kinda like how the hand of god mass murdering criminals would keep people from committing crime.
He's objectively wrong but he's morally right.
Again, not entirely dissimilar to L, who happens to be both morally and objectively right.
Ok, those of you arguing that Light's not an evil sonofabitch is also arguing that it's right for presidents or a leader of a country to arrest anyone they believe is guilty regardless of reasons or facts or laws.
I call that abuse of power - and any abuse of power I consider it evil.
I think a much better candidate for this borderline would be Prince Arthas from Warcraft III. There is a diseased populace, who turn into undead monsters if they aren't slain and he determines that the best way to save the world is to kill the infected. In the end he is rebuffed, and loses his sanity.
The best part is that Arthas was completely right, and if people had just listened to him, he would have saved the entire world.
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Light would be an heroic antagonist, because he's the main character's foil but a good guy. A villanous protagonist would be, say, MacBeth, or someone evil who's nonetheless the main character.
Whooo lit terminology.
*edit* shit I am retarded and mixed up Light and L. NEVER MIND FOLKS.
Whatever happens to Entreri? Doesn't he eventually realize he can never beat Drizzt because of that +2 dexterity racial bonus and just give up on being a master assassin?
I don't follow you; did you mean L instead of Light? Light is definitely the main character in Death Note, so he fits the villainous protagonist role perfectly.
Shit I've only seen that show like once. Yes. Yes I did.
I mean, L consistently states that he wants Kira to recieve the death penalty. They're not that different.
The show can't last more than another 2 seasons or it will be terrible.
A sociopath can't grow as a person.
A show where the protagonist doesn't develop can't last.
I think characters like Dexter, The Punisher, Charles Bronson in the Death Wish movies, and the like are anti-heroes.
what
Regarding Bateman -
Ok, so, he was a bad guy, but not a villain.
It's like this. L believes firmly in the judicial system, in due process. Light just wants to kill criminals. Pretty much all of them. And he figures any problems with this course of action (IE; innocent people being killed) will smooth themselves out as people will simply stop committing crime because criminals are dropping dead.
Those are completely different ideals, believing in the law and believing in murder.
He may be amoral and on occasion intoxicated by his power but he is not evil.
Nobody believes in murder. By nature of the word murder, it's unjustified. Obviously he sees it as justified.
Really, Light believes less in an idea of "justice", and more in a system of severe and certain punishment to simply prevent crime. He's not evil. He doesn't really stand to gain anything. He just wants to make the world a better place.
Many of the people he kills are undeserving of death and some are innocent people.
Fuck that. I don't care what he is trying to do. That's like me saying "I shall now get rid of AIDs by murdering everyone with the disease" and thinking it is right.
By the end of the series Light absolutely is evil. He starts off being an arguably good person who's doing something wrong for the greater good, but very rapidly deteriorates into a complete psychopath. Just look at the difference between
As for L, while he has his flaws he's trying to capture a mass murderer. While I'm personally against the death penalty I don't think someone's evil just because they support it, and if one is going to put anyone to death someone who kills hundreds if not thousands of people is gonna be pretty close to the top of the list.
I disagree.
Spectre: Sure that's moral, if your objective is really and truly to eradicate the disease. I'd try to stop you but I wouldn't say you're evil for it.
So you're saying that if I just went out and started murdering people with AIDs as an effort to stop the disease from spreading, you would think me non-evil?
How many people get arrested for a crime that they didn't commit? How many people get convicted of a crime they didn't commit?
Light wasn't even giving folks a chance to GO to trial - he just killed them as they were announced as being arrested. A very large number of innocent people were no doubt killed by him even when he was still under the delusion of a noble cause.
Thinking about it though it kind of fits into Japanese society and how their legal system is construed. It's basically assumed that if you are a suspect you are guilty - the Phoenix Wright games are in a way also a commentary on this. But I digress.
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
I'd rather see a few people killed to cure an epidemic.
He just has human flaws. Give anyone the power of a God and chances are it will eventually get to them. It could happen to anyone.
Again, if eradicating the disease was truly your intention and you reasonably believed you could actually accomplish this (If you don't, you're deliberately killing people in vain and thus your intentions can not possibly be pure) then yes.
That's not the point. It's not the point. Their deaths served a purpose and some just happened to be unfortunate enough to be lumped into the category of the other criminals. It's the same reason why our judicial system has standards and regulations. Not every case can be judged and if Light took the time to evaluate every single person before killing them there would be no impact.
I'll argue this all night so...instead i'm off to bed. I may just be homicidal as I can easily see myself becoming as vain as someone like Bateman.
Wow, Church. Just wow.
Evil would be...I don't know torturing people for fun. Not attempting to cure an epidemic by doing something that you believe and can logically prove would truly make an improvement in the end.
And no there is no Hitler comparison.
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
How very irellevant, thank you.
Oh wait, Light is that.
I firmly believe someone who would just choose (if they had the power to do so) to kill those people are evil.
He doesn't laugh because he kills. He laughs because his power is bringing his plan to bring complete justice to the world to fruition. His laughter is not because he killed but because of what he accomplished. Except that one time, he just went crazy with power then.
God damn it guys stop debating this I want to sleep.
He's objectively wrong but he's morally right.
Again, not entirely dissimilar to L, who happens to be both morally and objectively right.
I don't care what goals you're trying to accomplish, you have that mindset, you are not a good person.
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
I call that abuse of power - and any abuse of power I consider it evil.
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The best part is that Arthas was completely right, and if people had just listened to him, he would have saved the entire world.
So would you agree that God (if you believe in such a deity) is not a good person? Wanting praise makes a person evil?
If you have that mindset, it will corrupt you if given enough power.