edit: Dortmunder, because it is an immediate interrupt, it stops them before they make the move into the adjacent square. An immediate interrupt happens before the action that triggers it completes.
That's what I thought also, the CSR disagreed, so I am still not sure how to rule this...
Yeah, if you make the assumption that the CSR forgot about immediate interrupts then all of his answers make sense. So I'm going to assume he did. The second part of his first answer clearly shows this.
My understanding of general and specific is based on the English language. How about yours? Care to share why you think a feat is innately specific? Because it isn't.
"When you make an opportunity attack with a heavy blade, you can use at-will attack that has the weapon keyword instead of a basic attack."
Thank you for adlibbing the feat, and bringing it up in the first place by assuming I cannot interpret this feat, when it had no bearing on the discussion at hand.
I'm sure trying to define arguments made your point though.
I think you are missing the specific rule that says you can only make a melee basic attack. Since that is the specific rule that occurs when provoking happens Heavy Blade Opportunity doesn't do anything, its over ridden...
Oh wait, that is retarded.
Feats are and have always been specific rather than general. The general rule is the one that applies to everyone. The specific rule is the one that applies only when certain conditions are met.
Here's my take on the Polearm Gambit vs. shifting thing:
A creature with natural reach would get an OA on a moving creature BEFORE it moved from a non-adjacent square to an adjacent square.
Per the text of Polearm Gambit, you get your OA on the creature AFTER it leaves the non-adjacent square and when it enters the adjacent square.
By this metric, Polearm Gambit is inferior to natural reach.
In the case of shifting, the creature with natural reach does NOT get to make an OA against a creature SHIFTING from a non-adjacent square to an adjacent square.
Polearm Gambit, being inferior to natural reach, would be subject to the same limitation.
This also means that the Polearm Gambit fighter's OA would immobilize the opponent AFTER it moved to an adjacent square, thus preventing any further movement, but NOT preventing the creature from moving adjacent to the fighter. Keep in mind that there is no save versus the immobilizing effect, so giving fighters for all intents and purposes the ability to completely prevent opponents from attacking in melee seems a little overpowered to me.
delroland on
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"Go up, thou bald head." -2 Kings 2:23
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Der Waffle MousBlame this on the misfortune of your birth.New Yark, New Yark.Registered Userregular
edited June 2008
Ugh, dear god, is there a virtual tabletop program that doesn't suck horribly in one aspect or another?
This also means that the Polearm Gambit fighter's OA would immobilize the opponent AFTER it moved to an adjacent square, thus preventing any further movement, but NOT preventing the creature from moving adjacent to the fighter. Keep in mind that there is no save versus the immobilizing effect, so giving fighters for all intents and purposes the ability to completely prevent opponents from attacking in melee seems a little overpowered to me.
But that is what the rules say, and is one of the main reasons to take the feat. Otherwise it's a little too underwhelming I think.
Threatening Reach isn't the difference between before or after. Threatening Reach allows you to OA if they provoke no matter which direction they are going. Polearm Gambit only gives them the OA if they approach adjacent to the user.
Der Waffle MousBlame this on the misfortune of your birth.New Yark, New Yark.Registered Userregular
edited June 2008
openRPG is probably the buggiest piece of crap my group has ever used. Granted, we only came to this realization once we actually tried to use the battlemap. Also, macs.
Maptools I want to like, but the DM's router situation pretty much keeps it from being used as noone can seem to see his maps.
As for Gametable, I just tried it, seems like it might work if I could figure out how to add a map.
So, is it just me, or is the new Detect Magic pretty ridiculous?
Since the DC is set by the level of the spell, you can easily detect a minor prestidigitation, but the 50-foot portal to hell with demons pouring out of it? Hmmm, sorry, doesn't seem to be magical.
Waffle, players can host if the DM is having trouble hosting. Just need to select the right role when starting the server and when joining it.
Thanatos, yeah, it makes ok sense for Identify portions but they really should have broken the "DC + level" paradigm and inverted that, make it "20 - half level" or such.
So, is it just me, or is the new Detect Magic pretty ridiculous?
.
A portal or other huge effect cries out for a big situational bonus to be sure. I find a lot of rituals call out for more guidance as well. If the rules seem stupid or wrong I adjust em. Basically, I try to interpret the books the way I wish my GF would interpret my statements.
EDIT: Infidel is right, I host for my DM every time with no problem. You just need to open the port on your firewall to host.
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Der Waffle MousBlame this on the misfortune of your birth.New Yark, New Yark.Registered Userregular
So, is it just me, or is the new Detect Magic pretty ridiculous?
.
A portal or other huge effect cries out for a big situational bonus to be sure. I find a lot of rituals call out for more guidance as well. If the rules seem stupid or wrong I adjust em. Basically, I try to interpret the books the way I wish my GF would interpret my statements.
So you accept the book for all its faults even though its clearly lying to you about what happened that night between it and the dumb blonde with the big tits? You remember, the night the book went out with all it friends and got really wasted, and didn't come home until four in the morning? And you found a pair of panties in its car but it said they were a gift?
Waffle, players can host if the DM is having trouble hosting. Just need to select the right role when starting the server and when joining it.
That's what we did.
We pretty much gave up after realizing that no matter what maps he put up none of them would load.
Edit: I mean, it's a situation where everyone seems to want to like the program, but his router issues are getting a bit ridiculous.
That's a damn shame. It's not due to router setup though, you wouldn't need to open any ports in order to join and send map images over. It must be something broken/buggy with his router or connection or computer.
Thanatos, yeah, it makes ok sense for Identify portions but they really should have broken the "DC + level" paradigm and inverted that, make it "20 - half level" or such.
I don't think it really makes sense for the identify portions, either, unless we assume that all magic items are designed to hide their nature.
Threatening Reach isn't the difference between before or after. Threatening Reach allows you to OA if they provoke no matter which direction they are going. Polearm Gambit only gives them the OA if they approach adjacent to the user.
1) The RAW, on Polearm Gambit, says, "... when the target ENTERS the square." Movement OA's state, "... when the target LEAVES a threatened square." This, to me, indicates that OA's are triggered after the target has moved. Really, though, they should have just made it an at-will power with a full power write-up; then we wouldn't be having this discussion, because the "Trigger" would be explicit.
2) If we allow Polearm Gambit to prevent movement to an adjacent square, we have effectively made the fighter invulnerable to melee attacks, because no one can get close enough to the fighter to attack. This is way, WAY too powerful. Plus it would make polearms the only feasible choice for any defender, just like spiked chains were in 3E (and, ironically, would be in 4E). Who needs a shield and extra AC when no one can attack you anyways?
delroland on
EVE: Online - the most fun you will ever have not playing a game.
"Go up, thou bald head." -2 Kings 2:23
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Goose!That's me, honeyShow me the way home, honeyRegistered Userregular
Maptools is working out quite nicely in my sessions, although the player with the Mac tends to keep on crashing out.
There's also some lag, which can be annoying at times, and the program becomes cumbersome if you load to much stuff, or large stuff. (Notably, I had a map that I converted from BG2, it came out as a 5.5meg jpeg, and it just wouldn't load at all... once I cut it's size to 3.5mb it loaded... as long as you used the 512mb load exe instead of the 256mb one.
Programming tokens is nice though, monster turns last 15 seconds or so only, and if my group is larger, or if I want to make extra encounters, you can just drag out or copy the token and execute it's macro's, and pew pew. The lighting is also nice enough to give a sense of exploring, as you can't see what's ahead.
So, is it just me, or is the new Detect Magic pretty ridiculous?
Since the DC is set by the level of the spell, you can easily detect a minor prestidigitation, but the 50-foot portal to hell with demons pouring out of it? Hmmm, sorry, doesn't seem to be magical.
That's kind of ridiculous.
You don't need a roll to tell you that a giant glowing portal to Hell is magical. I think it would be pretty obvious to anybody observing it. :P
However, making it a difficult roll to identify an INACTIVE portal to Hell does seem appropriate to me.
delroland on
EVE: Online - the most fun you will ever have not playing a game.
"Go up, thou bald head." -2 Kings 2:23
Charge fighter, get fucked on a successful OA. Fair enough. Next round? Shift in adjacent with no issue, swing as usual. It only affects the initial approach.
This is also further reason why shifting should not be considered in Polearm Gambit, because then it is horribly broken as you describe. Not with my interpretation however.
Thanatos, yeah, it makes ok sense for Identify portions but they really should have broken the "DC + level" paradigm and inverted that, make it "20 - half level" or such.
I don't think it really makes sense for the identify portions, either, unless we assume that all magic items are designed to hide their nature.
Identifying makes just fine sense to me, since the more powerful items can be harder to figure out. It's not asking "hey dude is this magical?", it's "how does this work?"
The finer the forgery, the better a forger needed to know it.
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Der Waffle MousBlame this on the misfortune of your birth.New Yark, New Yark.Registered Userregular
Also this is reminding me of the DC 15 o so nature check to know that bears live in the woods.
It's pretty much the game system saying that yes, you can fail these things.
Sadly, I don't find that particularly unrealistic when compared to some of the stupidities on display here...like "was Lincoln (as in Abraham) black? And "what do you mean 'fish are animals'?"
Waffle, players can host if the DM is having trouble hosting. Just need to select the right role when starting the server and when joining it.
That's what we did.
We pretty much gave up after realizing that no matter what maps he put up none of them would load.
Edit: I mean, it's a situation where everyone seems to want to like the program, but his router issues are getting a bit ridiculous.
I'm no expert but he might want to check the file size of his map image or campaign . I tried to use a high rez PNG file and it was over 20 mb, and users could never seem to load the map. Once I shrunk the map down it could be loaded by the players. You also need to have the port open on your router, but it sounds like you did that already. Good luck maptool is pretty handy
Maptools I want to like, but the DM's router situation pretty much keeps it from being used as noone can seem to see his maps.
This is because the DM hasn't set any parts of the map as viewable by the players. He needs to remove the fog of war and/or add tokens and allow them visibility.
ed: DM can upload the campaign to a site like rapidshare and then have everyone have it on their machines beforehand.
Charge fighter, get fucked on a successful OA. Fair enough. Next round? Shift in adjacent with no issue, swing as usual. It only affects the initial approach.
This is also further reason why shifting should not be considered in Polearm Gambit, because then it is horribly broken as you describe. Not with my interpretation however.
Enters, not leaves. OA stops them when they become adjacent to you, not before.
So you accept the book for all its faults even though its clearly lying to you about what happened that night between it and the dumb blonde with the big tits? You remember, the night the book went out with all it friends and got really wasted, and didn't come home until four in the morning? And you found a pair of panties in its car but it said they were a gift?
Charge fighter, get fucked on a successful OA. Fair enough. Next round? Shift in adjacent with no issue, swing as usual. It only affects the initial approach.
Unless the fighter shifts one square back on his turn, in which case the cycle repeats ad nauseum. Also, the fighter is not limited to one OA per round, so he can OA every creature that tries to move adjacent, immobilizing them all. Heck, if he needed to, he could move more than one square instead of shifting without drawing an OA, because no one would be in melee range to threaten.
delroland on
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Goose!That's me, honeyShow me the way home, honeyRegistered Userregular
So you accept the book for all its faults even though its clearly lying to you about what happened that night between it and the dumb blonde with the big tits? You remember, the night the book went out with all it friends and got really wasted, and didn't come home until four in the morning? And you found a pair of panties in its car but it said they were a gift?
The PHB only hits me cause it loves meD:
But you are confident you can change the PHB. After all, the PHB hasn't met anyone like you before.
Charge fighter, get fucked on a successful OA. Fair enough. Next round? Shift in adjacent with no issue, swing as usual. It only affects the initial approach.
Unless the fighter shifts one square back on his turn, in which case the cycle repeats ad nauseum. Also, the fighter is not limited to one OA per round, so he can OA every creature that tries to move adjacent, immobilizing them all. Heck, if he needed to, he could move more than one square instead of shifting without drawing an OA, because no one would be in melee range to threaten.
What is this about the fighter not being limited to one OA?
Charge fighter, get fucked on a successful OA. Fair enough. Next round? Shift in adjacent with no issue, swing as usual. It only affects the initial approach.
Unless the fighter shifts one square back on his turn, in which case the cycle repeats ad nauseum. Also, the fighter is not limited to one OA per round, so he can OA every creature that tries to move adjacent, immobilizing them all. Heck, if he needed to, he could move more than one square instead of shifting without drawing an OA, because no one would be in melee range to threaten.
What is this about the fighter not being limited to one OA?
Everyone can make as many OA's as they want, just no more than one per target.
delroland on
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"Go up, thou bald head." -2 Kings 2:23
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INeedNoSaltwith blood on my teethRegistered Userregular
Charge fighter, get fucked on a successful OA. Fair enough. Next round? Shift in adjacent with no issue, swing as usual. It only affects the initial approach.
Unless the fighter shifts one square back on his turn, in which case the cycle repeats ad nauseum. Also, the fighter is not limited to one OA per round, so he can OA every creature that tries to move adjacent, immobilizing them all. Heck, if he needed to, he could move more than one square instead of shifting without drawing an OA, because no one would be in melee range to threaten.
So with a little bit of "fuzzy rules" help, we get the Spiked Chain fighter from 3rd back?
Which is why for now I have decided to side with the CSR and rule Polearm Gambit as such:
- The OA is triggered after the target has entered the adjacent square.
- Shifting does not provoke an OA in this case (waiting to see if the errata specifically enables it)
- All other movement (Walking, Running, Charging, Teleporting, Falling) does provoke an OA.
Charge fighter, get fucked on a successful OA. Fair enough. Next round? Shift in adjacent with no issue, swing as usual. It only affects the initial approach.
Unless the fighter shifts one square back on his turn, in which case the cycle repeats ad nauseum. Also, the fighter is not limited to one OA per round, so he can OA every creature that tries to move adjacent, immobilizing them all. Heck, if he needed to, he could move more than one square instead of shifting without drawing an OA, because no one would be in melee range to threaten.
So with a little bit of "fuzzy rules" help, we get the Spiked Chain fighter from 3rd back?
Actually a little better - he can use Tide of Iron if he can find a way to one-hand a polearm so they can literally never get next to him.
Small size, low-light vision
+2 STR, +2 CHA
+2 History, +2 Intimidate
Powerful build: Gnome Titans may use weapons scaled for large creatures. Being small, Gnome Titans still must use versatile weapons two-handed and do not gain the +1 damage for using a versatile weapon two-handed. Gnome Titans also may not use two-handed weapons unless they also have the "small" property.
Racial:
Groin Stomp (encounter power)
Immediate Reaction
Trigger: an adjacent opponent falls prone.
Atk: Str+2 vs Fort
Hit: target is stunned until the end of your next turn.
Aftereffect on hit: target is dazed (save ends).
Special: Increase attack to Str+4 at paragon and Str+6 at epic.
---
[strike]I'm wondering if I should eliminate the dazed aftereffect (or swap out the stunned effect for the dazed effect) and add damage instead.
Also, I need to add some sort of small additional bonus, like maybe a +2 Initiative.[/strike]
delroland on
EVE: Online - the most fun you will ever have not playing a game.
"Go up, thou bald head." -2 Kings 2:23
Posts
Yeah, if you make the assumption that the CSR forgot about immediate interrupts then all of his answers make sense. So I'm going to assume he did. The second part of his first answer clearly shows this.
I think you are missing the specific rule that says you can only make a melee basic attack. Since that is the specific rule that occurs when provoking happens Heavy Blade Opportunity doesn't do anything, its over ridden...
Oh wait, that is retarded.
Feats are and have always been specific rather than general. The general rule is the one that applies to everyone. The specific rule is the one that applies only when certain conditions are met.
Care to cite where your last line is stated?
I'll let you make the effort at this point.
A creature with natural reach would get an OA on a moving creature BEFORE it moved from a non-adjacent square to an adjacent square.
Per the text of Polearm Gambit, you get your OA on the creature AFTER it leaves the non-adjacent square and when it enters the adjacent square.
By this metric, Polearm Gambit is inferior to natural reach.
In the case of shifting, the creature with natural reach does NOT get to make an OA against a creature SHIFTING from a non-adjacent square to an adjacent square.
Polearm Gambit, being inferior to natural reach, would be subject to the same limitation.
This also means that the Polearm Gambit fighter's OA would immobilize the opponent AFTER it moved to an adjacent square, thus preventing any further movement, but NOT preventing the creature from moving adjacent to the fighter. Keep in mind that there is no save versus the immobilizing effect, so giving fighters for all intents and purposes the ability to completely prevent opponents from attacking in melee seems a little overpowered to me.
"Go up, thou bald head." -2 Kings 2:23
But that is what the rules say, and is one of the main reasons to take the feat. Otherwise it's a little too underwhelming I think.
Threatening Reach isn't the difference between before or after. Threatening Reach allows you to OA if they provoke no matter which direction they are going. Polearm Gambit only gives them the OA if they approach adjacent to the user.
Which ones have you tried? We have these that I know of:
http://rptools.net/doku.php?id=maptool:intro 1.2 is nice, 1.3 is feature rich but unstable
http://www.openrpg.com/ No personal experience, but some use it
http://gametable.galactanet.com/ No personal experience, it claims to try for simplicity
a few priced ones as well.
Maptools I want to like, but the DM's router situation pretty much keeps it from being used as noone can seem to see his maps.
As for Gametable, I just tried it, seems like it might work if I could figure out how to add a map.
Since the DC is set by the level of the spell, you can easily detect a minor prestidigitation, but the 50-foot portal to hell with demons pouring out of it? Hmmm, sorry, doesn't seem to be magical.
That's kind of ridiculous.
Thanatos, yeah, it makes ok sense for Identify portions but they really should have broken the "DC + level" paradigm and inverted that, make it "20 - half level" or such.
A portal or other huge effect cries out for a big situational bonus to be sure. I find a lot of rituals call out for more guidance as well. If the rules seem stupid or wrong I adjust em. Basically, I try to interpret the books the way I wish my GF would interpret my statements.
EDIT: Infidel is right, I host for my DM every time with no problem. You just need to open the port on your firewall to host.
We pretty much gave up after realizing that no matter what maps he put up none of them would load.
Edit: I mean, it's a situation where everyone seems to want to like the program, but his router issues are getting a bit ridiculous.
So you accept the book for all its faults even though its clearly lying to you about what happened that night between it and the dumb blonde with the big tits? You remember, the night the book went out with all it friends and got really wasted, and didn't come home until four in the morning? And you found a pair of panties in its car but it said they were a gift?
That's a damn shame. It's not due to router setup though, you wouldn't need to open any ports in order to join and send map images over. It must be something broken/buggy with his router or connection or computer.
A damn shame. Maptools is pretty decent.
1) The RAW, on Polearm Gambit, says, "... when the target ENTERS the square." Movement OA's state, "... when the target LEAVES a threatened square." This, to me, indicates that OA's are triggered after the target has moved. Really, though, they should have just made it an at-will power with a full power write-up; then we wouldn't be having this discussion, because the "Trigger" would be explicit.
2) If we allow Polearm Gambit to prevent movement to an adjacent square, we have effectively made the fighter invulnerable to melee attacks, because no one can get close enough to the fighter to attack. This is way, WAY too powerful. Plus it would make polearms the only feasible choice for any defender, just like spiked chains were in 3E (and, ironically, would be in 4E). Who needs a shield and extra AC when no one can attack you anyways?
"Go up, thou bald head." -2 Kings 2:23
Did he go to port forward.com and attempt the fix they offer their? I did that on my laptop and it worked like a charm.
There's also some lag, which can be annoying at times, and the program becomes cumbersome if you load to much stuff, or large stuff. (Notably, I had a map that I converted from BG2, it came out as a 5.5meg jpeg, and it just wouldn't load at all... once I cut it's size to 3.5mb it loaded... as long as you used the 512mb load exe instead of the 256mb one.
Programming tokens is nice though, monster turns last 15 seconds or so only, and if my group is larger, or if I want to make extra encounters, you can just drag out or copy the token and execute it's macro's, and pew pew. The lighting is also nice enough to give a sense of exploring, as you can't see what's ahead.
You don't need a roll to tell you that a giant glowing portal to Hell is magical. I think it would be pretty obvious to anybody observing it. :P
However, making it a difficult roll to identify an INACTIVE portal to Hell does seem appropriate to me.
"Go up, thou bald head." -2 Kings 2:23
This is also further reason why shifting should not be considered in Polearm Gambit, because then it is horribly broken as you describe. Not with my interpretation however.
Identifying makes just fine sense to me, since the more powerful items can be harder to figure out. It's not asking "hey dude is this magical?", it's "how does this work?"
The finer the forgery, the better a forger needed to know it.
It's pretty much the game system saying that yes, you can fail these things.
Nintendo Network ID: AzraelRose
DropBox invite link - get 500MB extra free.
I'm no expert but he might want to check the file size of his map image or campaign . I tried to use a high rez PNG file and it was over 20 mb, and users could never seem to load the map. Once I shrunk the map down it could be loaded by the players. You also need to have the port open on your router, but it sounds like you did that already. Good luck maptool is pretty handy
This is because the DM hasn't set any parts of the map as viewable by the players. He needs to remove the fog of war and/or add tokens and allow them visibility.
ed: DM can upload the campaign to a site like rapidshare and then have everyone have it on their machines beforehand.
Enters, not leaves. OA stops them when they become adjacent to you, not before.
The PHB only hits me cause it loves meD:
Unless the fighter shifts one square back on his turn, in which case the cycle repeats ad nauseum. Also, the fighter is not limited to one OA per round, so he can OA every creature that tries to move adjacent, immobilizing them all. Heck, if he needed to, he could move more than one square instead of shifting without drawing an OA, because no one would be in melee range to threaten.
"Go up, thou bald head." -2 Kings 2:23
But you are confident you can change the PHB. After all, the PHB hasn't met anyone like you before.
What is this about the fighter not being limited to one OA?
Everyone can make as many OA's as they want, just no more than one per target.
"Go up, thou bald head." -2 Kings 2:23
Awesome
So with a little bit of "fuzzy rules" help, we get the Spiked Chain fighter from 3rd back?
- The OA is triggered after the target has entered the adjacent square.
- Shifting does not provoke an OA in this case (waiting to see if the errata specifically enables it)
- All other movement (Walking, Running, Charging, Teleporting, Falling) does provoke an OA.
I mean, we can Google stuff, but that isn't the same as knowing it.
Did you guys see the little window button on the top right, that lets you switch between active maps?
Actually a little better - he can use Tide of Iron if he can find a way to one-hand a polearm so they can literally never get next to him.
Small size, low-light vision
+2 STR, +2 CHA
+2 History, +2 Intimidate
Powerful build: Gnome Titans may use weapons scaled for large creatures. Being small, Gnome Titans still must use versatile weapons two-handed and do not gain the +1 damage for using a versatile weapon two-handed. Gnome Titans also may not use two-handed weapons unless they also have the "small" property.
Racial:
Groin Stomp (encounter power)
Immediate Reaction
Trigger: an adjacent opponent falls prone.
Atk: Str+2 vs Fort
Hit: target is stunned until the end of your next turn.
Aftereffect on hit: target is dazed (save ends).
Special: Increase attack to Str+4 at paragon and Str+6 at epic.
---
[strike]I'm wondering if I should eliminate the dazed aftereffect (or swap out the stunned effect for the dazed effect) and add damage instead.
Also, I need to add some sort of small additional bonus, like maybe a +2 Initiative.[/strike]
"Go up, thou bald head." -2 Kings 2:23