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The Book of the New Sun is a pretty good book.

BogartBogart Streetwise HerculesRegistered User, Moderator Mod Emeritus
edited June 2009 in Debate and/or Discourse
I've recently re-read The Book of the New Sun, and reading practically anything by Gene Wolfe makes me want to do two things: read more Wolfe, and press upon anyone I can as much Wolfe as their arms will carry. I know he's a pretty popular choice here in the Reading Room thread, but for anyone who doesn't know anything about him here's the wikipedia page: it's a little scanty, but then again the best way to get acquainted with Wolfe is to read him. He's been writing for decades, but has, considering the awards and lavish praise heaped upon him (LeGuin compares him to Melville, while Michael Swanwick, among others, rates him as the finest writer in the English language), remained virtually unknown outside the SF/Fantasy readership.
gw1zb4.jpg

The Book of the New Sun is probably his best-known work, and consists of a series of four novels (with a fifth that was originally unplanned, but which serves as both an extension and a fitting capstone to an already complete story). They follow Severian, an apprentice in the guild of Torturers that resides in the citadel of the immense city of Nessus, as he is initiated in the guild, his travels across the world he calls Urth, and his final fate. Do you like stories that feature swordplay, battles, strange creatures and beautiful women? You're in luck! How about lasers, spaceships, aliens and strange science? Or perhaps magic, ghosts, legends and terrors. Again, welcome. Or possibly you're looking for a book with depth, subtexts, symbolism, meditations on being and reality and a fine literary prose style. All are here. If you've never encountered Wolfe, it's safe to say it's unlike anything you've ever read. Here are a couple of excerpts: the first chapter of The Shadow of the Torturer, the first novel in the sequence; the first chapter of The Sword of the Lictor, the third.
gw4qo9.jpg

More than any other novel I've read, the Book of the New Sun repays re-reading. Mysteries that baffled you first time around become clear, and are replaced by deeper mysteries in turn. If your first reading can be likened to your first sight of a great and epic painting, your second and subsequent readings are new viewings that give you a perspective that is at once a step further away and a step closer. You can see details on your closer viewing that escaped you before: the ring around the knight's finger is actually the coil of a snake whose head is preparing to strike his unprotected wrist, and the maiden you thought was idly wading in a stream between two swans is actually aboard a boat whose bow and stern are wooden carvings of swan's heads. And the farther perspective lets you take in the greater sweep of the painting: the maiden in the boat is heading for a waterfall, and the snake's poisonous bite may save a sleeping beggar from the knight's careless charge. The book is both a masterpiece of epic scope and detail (I always think of Tintoretto's Crucifixion in the Scuola di San Rocco in Venice - it was said that "all human life is here") and a deceptive series of tromp l'oeils and symbolic images whose true meaning is only revealed after study. And the more you look, the more you see and the more you understand. And, as you can tell, the books can also make you quite the ponce.

And even then, after multiple re-readings, there are still some riddles for which I have no solution.
Is Agilus a Heirodule? He has black bands on the sides of his face even after he removes the death mask Severian finds him wearing when they first meet, which indicates the face he reveals is only a second mask (which echoes the two masks of the Heirodules). But if he is, what of Agia? She certainly believes him to be her, presumably human, twin.

So, the tl;dr version. The Book of the New Sun. Great SF novel, or greatest SF novel?

Or, if that doesn't strike up enough interest, how about the Long Sun or Short Sun books? Or any old Gene Wolfe blather in general, really.

Bogart on
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Posts

  • skyknytskyknyt Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited July 2008
    I love reading Gene Wolfe, despite (or is it BECAUSE OF??) all the rapin's going on.

    I am really looking forward to reading the latest Latro book, too. My one complaint about him is that I think he relies a little too much on the "character writing a journal/letter/book" framing device, though. I think, for example, that the first story in The Fifth Head of Cerberus is an excellent unreliable narrator at the same time that it doesn't rely on his standby of a character writing down his experiences.

    skyknyt on
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  • JacobkoshJacobkosh Gamble a stamp. I can show you how to be a real man!Moderator mod
    edited July 2008
    Yeah, Wolfe definitely has his share of tropes, and the framing story is a big one - although, to be fair, he avoided it for Long Sun, not that that helped me much with deciphering the book. The Catholic stuff can also get rather blatant, the Eucharist scene in The Knight nearly had me rolling my eyes, but for the most part he manages to rework his particular preoccupations into enough interesting configurations that I either don't notice or don't mind.

    Jacobkosh on
  • DynagripDynagrip Break me a million hearts HoustonRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    edited July 2008
    most of his allusions and such go right over my head.

    That character was a ghost? really?

    Dynagrip on
  • QinguQingu Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    That beastie on the second book looks kind of like Atma Weapon.

    I'm sold!

    Qingu on
  • JacobkoshJacobkosh Gamble a stamp. I can show you how to be a real man!Moderator mod
    edited July 2008
    Dynagrip wrote: »
    most of his allusions and such go right over my head.

    That character was a ghost? really?

    There used to be an old mailing list called WHORL, I've no idea if it's still around, but those dudes parsed the books like Jesuits. At least half of what I know about what's going on in Fifth Head or Peace or whatever is because of those guys.

    For instance - have you read The Fifth Head of Cerberus? - I found out that (spoilers, obv.)
    the unnamed narrator of the first story is named "Gene Wolfe." Someone had a like three page essay citing all the evidence, and it was pretty convincing.

    Jacobkosh on
  • BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Registered User, Moderator Mod Emeritus
    edited July 2008
    jacobkosh wrote: »
    There used to be an old mailing list called WHORL, I've no idea if it's still around, but those dudes parsed the books like Jesuits.
    This one?

    Bogart on
  • JacobkoshJacobkosh Gamble a stamp. I can show you how to be a real man!Moderator mod
    edited July 2008
    Oh cool, it's still around. Their email digest sort of fell off and eventually stopped coming altogether years ago, so I sort of thought they'd died off.

    Jacobkosh on
  • JacobkoshJacobkosh Gamble a stamp. I can show you how to be a real man!Moderator mod
    edited July 2008
    Also, is that av from Zenith? It looks really familiar.

    Jacobkosh on
  • skyknytskyknyt Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited July 2008
    jacobkosh wrote: »
    Yeah, Wolfe definitely has his share of tropes, and the framing story is a big one - although, to be fair, he avoided it for Long Sun, not that that helped me much with deciphering the book.

    Actually, the Long Sun
    was a book written by the kids that Patera Silk had taken with him on most of his journeys, written as best as they could put it together from what he had told them and what they had seen of him.
    To be fair, though, that might have been a retcon by Wolfe after completing the final volume.

    skyknyt on
    Tycho wrote:
    [skyknyt's writing] is like come kind of code that, when comprehended, unfolds into madness in the mind of the reader.
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  • JacobkoshJacobkosh Gamble a stamp. I can show you how to be a real man!Moderator mod
    edited July 2008
    skyknyt wrote: »
    jacobkosh wrote: »
    Yeah, Wolfe definitely has his share of tropes, and the framing story is a big one - although, to be fair, he avoided it for Long Sun, not that that helped me much with deciphering the book.

    Actually, the Long Sun
    was a book written by the kids that Patera Silk had taken with him on most of his journeys, written as best as they could put it together from what he had told them and what they had seen of him.
    To be fair, though, that might have been a retcon by Wolfe after completing the final volume.

    Yeah, there's nothing in the volume itself to really suggest that, except for one instance (the narrator referring to a character as "I" instead of "he") that was apparently a typo, since it was fixed in subsequent editions.

    Jacobkosh on
  • BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Registered User, Moderator Mod Emeritus
    edited July 2008
    jacobkosh wrote: »
    Also, is that av from Zenith? It looks really familiar.

    Yeah, that's Zenith. I had to finally get around to using imageshack to make the OP, so I figured I'd get an avatar as well, and Zenith was the only headshot I had lying around.

    Bogart on
  • ErchamionErchamion Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    jacobkosh wrote: »
    The Catholic stuff can also get rather blatant, the Eucharist scene in The Knight nearly had me rolling my eyes, but for the most part he manages to rework his particular preoccupations into enough interesting configurations that I either don't notice or don't mind.

    How bad/common is this? I'm interested, but I don't know if I could make it through a book if it's really prominent. Is it like reading a C.S. Lewis book or more of a subtle thing where you can pick up that the guy is Catholic but it doesn't cloud the whole story?

    Erchamion on
  • BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Registered User, Moderator Mod Emeritus
    edited July 2008
    It's gotten a little more prevalent as he's gone on, I think, but in no way does it make his books unreadable. He isn't a strictly orthodox Catholic (for example, he's said many times that he believes pagan gods existed in a very real way before Christianity swept most of them away) or an unimaginative fundie who just regurgitates dogma. You can see the subtexts if you're looking for them, and sometimes you can see them even if you're not, but it's rarely clumsy or uninterestingly done.

    Bogart on
  • JacobkoshJacobkosh Gamble a stamp. I can show you how to be a real man!Moderator mod
    edited July 2008
    It's definitely the latter. Wolfe is Catholic and it colors his outlook, but it's by no means Catholic proselytizing, any more than, say, TS Eliot.

    Jacobkosh on
  • skyknytskyknyt Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited July 2008
    It's pretty subtle most of the time. There's an implication that the god referred to as the "Outsider" in the Long Sun books is actually the Christian god (but it's very nebulous as to whether there's any agency at all to worship of the Outsider), for example.

    For the most part, the characters in Gene Wolfe books tend to be cheerfully amoral in every sense of the word, which prevents any moralistic message from being hamfisted. The same guy that says stuff like, "One who truely benefits another is for that moment at a level with the Pancreator, and in gratitude for that elevation will serve the other all his days..." also handwaves away his own job as a torturer and executioner.

    So, the stories are pretty morally ambiguous and complex, with only a few glaring examples of the author believing a specific creed that sneak in.

    skyknyt on
    Tycho wrote:
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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    Erchamion wrote: »
    jacobkosh wrote: »
    The Catholic stuff can also get rather blatant, the Eucharist scene in The Knight nearly had me rolling my eyes, but for the most part he manages to rework his particular preoccupations into enough interesting configurations that I either don't notice or don't mind.

    How bad/common is this? I'm interested, but I don't know if I could make it through a book if it's really prominent. Is it like reading a C.S. Lewis book or more of a subtle thing where you can pick up that the guy is Catholic but it doesn't cloud the whole story?

    It's not "Shove Catholic belief down your throat".

    It's just alot of the imagery and such used makes alot more (or any) sense if your familiar with Christianity and Catholicism.

    Basically, your not gonna get a Jesus allusion in a book unless you know who Jesus is. It doesn't mean the book is trying to convert you though.

    shryke on
  • JacobkoshJacobkosh Gamble a stamp. I can show you how to be a real man!Moderator mod
    edited July 2008
    Exactly. Characters are named after obscure medieval saints, that sort of thing. Knowing who the saint is or what he or she did may illuminate the character's behavior or personality, but it's not a make-or-break thing.

    Jacobkosh on
  • PeekingDuckPeekingDuck __BANNED USERS regular
    edited July 2008
    Hey, this guy went to my University... I like him already! Will have to check out his books. Does he write like anyone else?

    PeekingDuck on
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    Hey, this guy went to my University... I like him already! Will have to check out his books. Does he write like anyone else?

    Not really. He's got his own style. You can always tell when your reading Gene Wolfe.

    shryke on
  • skyknytskyknyt Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited July 2008
    It might be because I talk to Dynagrip about a lot of awesome authors, but I've always related China Mieville and Michael Swanwick with Gene Wolfe. Similar attention to detail and gritty, sometimes brutal point of views.

    skyknyt on
    Tycho wrote:
    [skyknyt's writing] is like come kind of code that, when comprehended, unfolds into madness in the mind of the reader.
    PSN: skyknyt, Steam: skyknyt, Blizz: skyknyt#1160
  • JacobkoshJacobkosh Gamble a stamp. I can show you how to be a real man!Moderator mod
    edited July 2008
    skyknyt wrote: »
    It might be because I talk to Dynagrip about a lot of awesome authors, but I've always related China Mieville and Michael Swanwick with Gene Wolfe. Similar attention to detail and gritty, sometimes brutal point of views.

    It makes sense, Swanwick is one of Wolfe's disciples and Mieville is on record as being a huge fan. Wolfe also workshopped Kim Stanley Robinson back in the day, and while KSR is generally much more conventional I think you can see some of Wolfe's influence in his more consciously literary efforts like The Years of Rice and Salt.

    Jacobkosh on
  • interceptintercept Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    Gene Wolfe is amazing. At certain times, he's referred to as the best American author working in any genre alive today.

    intercept on
  • NeadenNeaden Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    Yeah, definitely don't worry that Gene Wolfe is a Catholic, for instance, I am a fairly devout and educated Catholic, and I just found out that Gene Wolfe was Catholic from this thread. I kinda got the feeling that he threw some allusions in there every now and then, but did not know he was an active Catholic. A couple things make more sense now though. Same with his belief that the Pagan Gods existed in some form at one time. Does anyone have a link to where he discusses this by any chance? It seems like it would be neat to read.

    Neaden on
  • JacobkoshJacobkosh Gamble a stamp. I can show you how to be a real man!Moderator mod
    edited July 2008
    Neaden wrote: »
    Yeah, definitely don't worry that Gene Wolfe is a Catholic, for instance, I am a fairly devout and educated Catholic, and I just found out that Gene Wolfe was Catholic from this thread. I kinda got the feeling that he threw some allusions in there every now and then, but did not know he was an active Catholic. A couple things make more sense now though. Same with his belief that the Pagan Gods existed in some form at one time. Does anyone have a link to where he discusses this by any chance? It seems like it would be neat to read.

    There's a good interview somewhere with Wolfe about his Catholicism, lemme see if I can find it.

    Jacobkosh on
  • DynagripDynagrip Break me a million hearts HoustonRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    edited July 2008
    I pretty much don't like Kim Stanley Robinson at all. I am a big fan of Swanwick though.

    I told jacob this already but Wolfe has a new book coming out soon. It sounds interesting.

    51j1PB1-XvL._SS500_.jpg

    Dynagrip on
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    Swanwick is good too, but doesn't read like Gene Wolfe. The prose is completely different and everything else is only sort of a bit similar.

    Which doesn't make The Iron Dragon's Daughter any less awesome.

    shryke on
  • JacobkoshJacobkosh Gamble a stamp. I can show you how to be a real man!Moderator mod
    edited July 2008
    Here we go:

    http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze2tmhh/wolfejbj.html
    JJ: Let me ask you about Soldier of the Mist and Soldier of Arete. Are those historical novels or fantasy novels?

    GW: Well, they are historical fantasy. What I tried to do.

    JJ: Which is another way of saying, do we have fallen angels here or some type of power that really was operative in the world before the kingdom of God?

    GW: That is my personal belief. I think that the gods of paganism were real. But what I tried to do was to write about that pagan world as the pagans themselves wrote about it. If we read modern historians we are reading a very rationalistic viewpoint of this which says that all of these people were absolutely wasting their time by building temples to Ares or Apollo or you name it. And by offering sacrifices in worship and all that it was nothing there. Nothing at all there and that whether it is true or not that certainly is not the way the people who were doing it felt. They were convinced that there was something there and they had all sorts of legends and so forth about the appearances of the god and in fact there is one place in the Acts where Paul and another one of the apostles are mistaken for Zeus and Mercury. Zeus and Hermes, we are mixing the Latin and the Greek which is what I was trying to get away from. They are mistaken for Zeus and Hermes in human form because people in those days expected that you could see Zeus and Hermes in human form. I am not so sure they were wrong. I am not convinced that they were wrong. We love to think how much smarter we are than people of ancient times or biblical times or so forth but I am very dubious about that.

    Lots of interesting stuff in that interview.

    Jacobkosh on
  • JacobkoshJacobkosh Gamble a stamp. I can show you how to be a real man!Moderator mod
    edited July 2008
    shryke wrote: »
    Swanwick is good too, but doesn't read like Gene Wolfe. The prose is completely different and everything else is only sort of a bit similar.

    Which doesn't make The Iron Dragon's Daughter any less awesome.

    The resemblance is a lot more obvious in his sci-fi, especially early books like Vacuum Flowers and Stations of the Tide.

    Jacobkosh on
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    jacobkosh wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Swanwick is good too, but doesn't read like Gene Wolfe. The prose is completely different and everything else is only sort of a bit similar.

    Which doesn't make The Iron Dragon's Daughter any less awesome.

    The resemblance is a lot more obvious in his sci-fi, especially early books like Vacuum Flowers and Stations of the Tide.

    Aww, that might be it. I don't read much Sci-fi.

    shryke on
  • skyknytskyknyt Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited July 2008
    I'm pretty confident that if you like The Iron Dragon's Daughter or the Dragons of Babel that you'd like Stations of the Tide.

    skyknyt on
    Tycho wrote:
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  • NeadenNeaden Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    Thank you Jacob, it is indeed a very interesting interview.

    Neaden on
  • JacobkoshJacobkosh Gamble a stamp. I can show you how to be a real man!Moderator mod
    edited July 2008
    Stations of the Tide is one of the most amazing sci-fi books I've ever read. If it were a movie, and I were Shawn Edwards of W-SHILL Radio, my quote would be "You'll stand up and cheer!"

    Jacobkosh on
  • DynagripDynagrip Break me a million hearts HoustonRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    edited July 2008
    I loved that one. Will had some complaints about the sex scenes but eh. Actually, so did the coworker that I loaned it to. He was pretty straight laced though. I mean hell, it's not like they made up a majority of the book.

    Have any of y'all read his Pirate novel?

    Ooh, I've got another Gene Wolfe book stashed around here somewhere. Free Live Free.

    Dynagrip on
  • JacobkoshJacobkosh Gamble a stamp. I can show you how to be a real man!Moderator mod
    edited July 2008
    Dynagrip wrote: »
    I loved that one. Will had some complaints about the sex scenes but eh. Actually, so did the coworker that I loaned it to. He was pretty straight laced though. I mean hell, it's not like they made up a majority of the book.

    What was Will's problem with those bits? Since that character was into kinky sex magick stuff, it's not like it was extraneous to the plot.

    edit: and no, I need to buy the pirate book.

    edit2: Free Live Free is pretty cool. It's not as obtuse as some of his other stuff, but it's really crazy.

    Jacobkosh on
  • BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Registered User, Moderator Mod Emeritus
    edited July 2008
    For the guy looking for the interview, there's that one and a whole lot more in this book. It's also got a bunch of uncollected essays and odds and sods. For the Wolfe afficianados.

    Free Live Free is great. I had no idea where it was headed the whole way through, and although I haven't read it for a while I seem to remember it as being funnier than most of Wolfe's other stuff.

    Pirate Freedom felt like Wolfe running at maybe three-quarter speed, and it contained the only case of blatant author intrusion I've ever seen from him. You'll know it when you see it, and I came close to putting the book down after it. First time I've ever done that to a Wolfe book.

    An Evil Guest looks good though - someone with an advance copy described it as Bladerunner meets Lovecraft.

    Bogart on
  • PeekingDuckPeekingDuck __BANNED USERS regular
    edited July 2008
    Man, I like him even more after reading the interview. That's it - I'm buying his stuff tonight!

    PeekingDuck on
  • skyknytskyknyt Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited July 2008
    jacobkosh wrote: »
    Stations of the Tide is one of the most amazing sci-fi books I've ever read. If it were a movie, and I were Shawn Edwards of W-SHILL Radio, my quote would be "You'll stand up and cheer!"

    I think it's my favorite book, period. (thanks Dyna!) Not to turn this thread into a Swanwick wankfest, I just never get tired of talking about him.

    As far as Wolfe goes, I'm really looking forword to Evil Guest.

    skyknyt on
    Tycho wrote:
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  • ErchamionErchamion Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    I think I'm going to have to pick one of his books up. Any suggestions on which?

    Erchamion on
  • JacobkoshJacobkosh Gamble a stamp. I can show you how to be a real man!Moderator mod
    edited July 2008
    Erchamion wrote: »
    I think I'm going to have to pick one of his books up. Any suggestions on which?

    Everyone suggests The Book of the New Sun, and that's a good recommendation, but if you're in the market for something a bit shorter try The Fifth Head of Cerberus. It'll give you a good idea what he's all about.

    Jacobkosh on
  • skyknytskyknyt Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited July 2008
    I second both those choices, you should be able to find either at most bookstores, too.

    skyknyt on
    Tycho wrote:
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