I don't believe art can be fully separated from artist. Fiction is a form of art. If Card were a biographer or a historian I might feel differently, especially if his noxious views didn't come through in his work.
But yes, his odious views and extreme self-righteousness taint my enjoyment of his work. And honestly, I don't even like most of his books. I only really liked Speaker and Xenocide. Ender's Game was pretty "meh" and Children of the Mind was a terrible end to the series, in which Card went off on crazed tangents and destroyed the integrity of the characters he had made me care about.
By this logic you are sooooo not allowed to enjoy Alice's Adventures in Wonderland.
My English prof fall semester last year spent many days in England going over Carroll's personal journals and came to the conclusion that he was probably not a pedophile and the charges were trumped up.
wazilla on
Psn:wazukki
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ZimmydoomAccept no substitutesRegistered Userregular
Zimmydoom, Zimmydoom
Flew away in a balloon
Had sex with polar bears
While sitting in a reclining chair
Now there are Zim-Bear hybrids
Running around and clawing eyelids
Watch out, a Zim-Bear is about to have sex with yooooooou!
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Zen VulgarityWhat a lovely day for teaSecret British ThreadRegistered Userregular
That's a valid viewpoint drez but I just can't make the disconnect.
I still like ender's game I guess, but I think if I try to read it now it would just be poisoned for me. I wouldn't be able to read it without his seeing his vitriol drip from the pages.
OH. I don't table dance. I tie boys up and beat/humiliate them. I couldn't answer.
I do know the approriate response to "What did I tell you about sleeping with strippers?" is "Always wear a condom and unroll the quarters before you throw them." though.
OH. I don't table dance. I tie boys up and beat/humiliate them. I couldn't answer.
I do know the approriate response to "What did I tell you about sleeping with strippers?" is "Always wear a condom and unroll the quarters before you throw them." though.
Quid on
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ZimmydoomAccept no substitutesRegistered Userregular
That's a valid viewpoint drez but I just can't make the disconnect.
I still like ender's game I guess, but I think if I try to read it now it would just be poisoned for me. I wouldn't be able to read it without his seeing his vitriol drip from the pages.
Don't worry Eddy, if there is a God then Card will eventually die of the Super AIDS.
And if there is a Mormon God then when we die you and I and Boy can have our own planet together and he won't be invited.
Zimmydoom, Zimmydoom
Flew away in a balloon
Had sex with polar bears
While sitting in a reclining chair
Now there are Zim-Bear hybrids
Running around and clawing eyelids
Watch out, a Zim-Bear is about to have sex with yooooooou!
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Zen VulgarityWhat a lovely day for teaSecret British ThreadRegistered Userregular
edited August 2008
Zim me and you will never, ever agree on baseball.
Oh yeah, during field day on Wednesday, this one JO who is cool climbed back in the outboard with us and helped us "clean" but mostly we were just BSing, but because there was an officer with us all the other khakis passed by assuming we were "supervised" and therefore hard at work. And this JO is really, really cute and in super great shape (he's a diver) and he kept stretching out and bending over this one pipe to reach things and it presented the nicest view of his ass. It really was the most enjoyable field day in memory.
aww thanks you guys you make me feel better when the batshit insane mormons bite
Are you and The Boy going to have a Mormon wedding, Eddy?
here is where I am staying this weekend
my boyfriend's house in Graham, the house that belongs to his mormon mom and mormon step father. They know I'm here and that we'll be sleeping together. HIs mom is super nice to me whenever we interact and has described me to strangers as 'really nice'
I am not allowed to sleep over at his staunch atheist dad's at all, not even on the couch.
I don't really get it.
oh and he says he appreciates the capitalization.
Tell him I said "hi."
Hi there!
full disclosure: Eddy is sitting next to me and I am reading over his shoulder.
I don't believe art can be fully separated from artist. Fiction is a form of art. If Card were a biographer or a historian I might feel differently, especially if his noxious views didn't come through in his work.
But yes, his odious views and extreme self-righteousness taint my enjoyment of his work. And honestly, I don't even like most of his books. I only really liked Speaker and Xenocide. Ender's Game was pretty "meh" and Children of the Mind was a terrible end to the series, in which Card went off on crazed tangents and destroyed the integrity of the characters he had made me care about.
I don't want to respond too thoroughly because I don't want to spoil any of these, but I do agree on Children of the Mind.
And I don't know what to say about art not being fully separated from artist. As a writer, I strongly disagree. Especially when it comes to writing because, really, a writer is an actor of sorts. I could write a book that promotes satanism (yes, I mean "promotes") while being a devout Christian. I could satirically lambaste Christianity as a Christian if I wanted to because good writers have the power to put themselves in other perspectives.
It's not really a good idea to associate what a fiction writer writes about with who he is, or vice-versa, and this works both ways. Card is in the unique position of writing something wholly empathic while the man is very clearly an intolerant loon. Others might come off as assholes in their writing and be the nicest people ever. The author is, more or less, completely irrelevant. Only the book itself matters. What exists between front and back cover. Why should ANY external thing matter? What does it matter if JK Rowling's rapes goats or not in her spare time, or if William Gibson secretly hates black people, or whatever? Harry Potter is unchanged. Neuromancer is unchanged. The only thing that has changed is you.
And really, that's a theme Card actually touches on in Speaker. And he's right. Most of the time, people are what they are and things are what they are. What changes rapidly and significantly are our perspectives toward these people based on what we know about them. But really these things are what they are and I think fictional works of art should either speak for themselves or not at all. So, no, the author doesn't matter to me one iota. Only the book, movie, or whatever matters.
The thing is this: If you never knew anything about Card, Ender's Game would just be a book that you would enjoy or not enjoy based on your experience with the book. The fact that you know shit about Card is what changes your opinion of the book. But Card never changed. And the book itself hasn't changed. Card was Card before you knew anything about him. And Ender's Game was Ender's Game before you knew anything about Card. So really, nothing in this equation changed but you.
I certainly don't disparage you for disliking the guy. I sure don't like him. He may have written one of my favorite books, but I wouldn't want to hang out with him at a bar or anything. But ultimately I don't see what that has to do with the book which exists now of its own accord.
I was reading this one account of Fred Rogers, and the woman quoted is a theologian of some variety, moved in the same circles as Mr. Rogers. Apparently he was just exactly like he was on television in real life, which actually made him a wild bore at parties. They felt sorry for him and took turns on "Fred watch" to make sure someone was keeping him company and talking to him.
And you know, it didn't make me feel bad or sad because it occurs to me that you can't be that fundamentally good and decent and still be fun at a party. Jesus wouldn't actually be fun to party with. It could be enlightening, or deep, or whatever, but it wouldn't be fun.
Whenever I hear Ender's Game I just think Zone of the Enders (the game). I always wanted to play that, because the cover looked cool.
I love the soundtrack. You can unlock one of the ZoE tracks in MGS4. I've been pretty much listening to the track nonstop as I tromp through the game a second time.
It's a good game, too.
Drez on
Switch: SW-7690-2320-9238Steam/PSN/Xbox: Drezdar
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HacksawJ. Duggan Esq.Wrestler at LawRegistered Userregular
I was reading this one account of Fred Rogers, and the woman quoted is a theologian of some variety, moved in the same circles as Mr. Rogers. Apparently he was just exactly like he was on television in real life, which actually made him a wild bore at parties. They felt sorry for him and took turns on "Fred watch" to make sure someone was keeping him company and talking to him.
And you know, it didn't make me feel bad or sad because it occurs to me that you can't be that fundamentally good and decent and still be fun at a party. Jesus wouldn't actually be fun to party with. It could be enlightening, or deep, or whatever, but it wouldn't be fun.
Not that it matters, of course, because Fred Rogers was one of the most wonderful human beings ever to have graced this shitty, shitty world.
EDIT: And I'm sure Jesus would have been a hoot at parties:
"Hey Jesus, we're out of wine!"
"No problem, just bring me a pitcher of water!"
*Jesus turns the water into wine, and the merriment continues*
Hacksaw on
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ZimmydoomAccept no substitutesRegistered Userregular
Zim me and you will never, ever agree on baseball.
We should not debate it with each other.
Ever.
I'm painfully realizing this now.
I'm usually not a big fan of "debating" sports topics, since they're probably the least important thing that people get the most (stupidly) emotional about.
Case in point: that guy.
That said, I do recognize Manny's exploits in the postseason, but I still think the trade needed to be made. I strongly believe that Manny will never be Manny again, at least not for us. Better to get something for him while we can than to let the resentment fester and deny us the flexibility to be active during the offseason.
Zimmydoom, Zimmydoom
Flew away in a balloon
Had sex with polar bears
While sitting in a reclining chair
Now there are Zim-Bear hybrids
Running around and clawing eyelids
Watch out, a Zim-Bear is about to have sex with yooooooou!
I was reading this one account of Fred Rogers, and the woman quoted is a theologian of some variety, moved in the same circles as Mr. Rogers. Apparently he was just exactly like he was on television in real life, which actually made him a wild bore at parties. They felt sorry for him and took turns on "Fred watch" to make sure someone was keeping him company and talking to him.
And you know, it didn't make me feel bad or sad because it occurs to me that you can't be that fundamentally good and decent and still be fun at a party. Jesus wouldn't actually be fun to party with. It could be enlightening, or deep, or whatever, but it wouldn't be fun.
Not that it matters, of course, because Fred Rogers was one of the most wonderful human beings ever to have graced this shitty, shitty world.
aww thanks you guys you make me feel better when the batshit insane mormons bite
Are you and The Boy going to have a Mormon wedding, Eddy?
here is where I am staying this weekend
my boyfriend's house in Graham, the house that belongs to his mormon mom and mormon step father. They know I'm here and that we'll be sleeping together. HIs mom is super nice to me whenever we interact and has described me to strangers as 'really nice'
I am not allowed to sleep over at his staunch atheist dad's at all, not even on the couch.
I don't really get it.
oh and he says he appreciates the capitalization.
Tell him I said "hi."
Hi there!
full disclosure: Eddy is sitting next to me and I am reading over his shoulder.
Eddy told me that you think I'm cute.
I just wanted you to know that I'm rubbing my nipples thinking about your unkempt hair right now.
Zimmydoom, Zimmydoom
Flew away in a balloon
Had sex with polar bears
While sitting in a reclining chair
Now there are Zim-Bear hybrids
Running around and clawing eyelids
Watch out, a Zim-Bear is about to have sex with yooooooou!
I was reading this one account of Fred Rogers, and the woman quoted is a theologian of some variety, moved in the same circles as Mr. Rogers. Apparently he was just exactly like he was on television in real life, which actually made him a wild bore at parties. They felt sorry for him and took turns on "Fred watch" to make sure someone was keeping him company and talking to him.
And you know, it didn't make me feel bad or sad because it occurs to me that you can't be that fundamentally good and decent and still be fun at a party. Jesus wouldn't actually be fun to party with. It could be enlightening, or deep, or whatever, but it wouldn't be fun.
Not that it matters, of course, because Fred Rogers was one of the most wonderful human beings ever to have graced this shitty, shitty world.
EDIT: And I'm sure Jesus would have been a hoot at parties:
"Hey Jesus, we're out of wine!"
"No problem, just bring me a pitcher of water!"
*Jesus turns the water into wine, and the merriment continues*
The thing is this: If you never knew anything about Card, Ender's Game would just be a book that you would enjoy or not enjoy based on your experience with the book. The fact that you know shit about Card is what changes your opinion of the book. But Card never changed. And the book itself hasn't changed. Card was Card before you knew anything about him. And Ender's Game was Ender's Game before you knew anything about Card. So really, nothing in this equation changed but you.
I certainly don't disparage you for disliking the guy. I sure don't like him. He may have written one of my favorite books, but I wouldn't want to hang out with him at a bar or anything. But ultimately I don't see what that has to do with the book which exists now of its own accord.
The thing is that you can't discount some life experiences when reading a book versus others. The reader almost always brings the most to the table in the reading of a book (errr, restricted to just casual reading I suppose). If you learn about Card before reading the book it could possibly open up new interpretive avenues that you would not have seen otherwise just as someone who experienced some form of racism first hand might have a different take on Invisible Man than someone who has not. Someone who has read Kafka a lot might have a completely different reading of The Erasers than someone who preferred Tolkien.
Oh yeah, during field day on Wednesday, this one JO who is cool climbed back in the outboard with us and helped us "clean" but mostly we were just BSing, but because there was an officer with us all the other khakis passed by assuming we were "supervised" and therefore hard at work. And this JO is really, really cute and in super great shape (he's a diver) and he kept stretching out and bending over this one pipe to reach things and it presented the nicest view of his ass. It really was the most enjoyable field day in memory.
at first I thought you were saying he was a jack off
regardless that sounds great. My favorite part of intro swimming class was the guys in skimpy outfits and of course the football that got naked in front of me while talking about what we were doing in class that day. I think I nodded and went 'uh huh' and 'yeah' a couple of times
Casual Eddy on
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HacksawJ. Duggan Esq.Wrestler at LawRegistered Userregular
I was reading this one account of Fred Rogers, and the woman quoted is a theologian of some variety, moved in the same circles as Mr. Rogers. Apparently he was just exactly like he was on television in real life, which actually made him a wild bore at parties. They felt sorry for him and took turns on "Fred watch" to make sure someone was keeping him company and talking to him.
And you know, it didn't make me feel bad or sad because it occurs to me that you can't be that fundamentally good and decent and still be fun at a party. Jesus wouldn't actually be fun to party with. It could be enlightening, or deep, or whatever, but it wouldn't be fun.
Not that it matters, of course, because Fred Rogers was one of the most wonderful human beings ever to have graced this shitty, shitty world.
EDIT: And I'm sure Jesus would have been a hoot at parties:
"Hey Jesus, we're out of wine!"
"No problem, just bring me a pitcher of water!"
*Jesus turns the water into wine, and the merriment continues*
I'd rather have Dionysus at a party.
And I would rather have a bunch of A-list porn stars at the party, but I'll takes whats I cans gets.
Zim me and you will never, ever agree on baseball.
We should not debate it with each other.
Ever.
I'm painfully realizing this now.
I'm usually not a big fan of "debating" sports topics, since they're probably the least important thing that people get the most (stupidly) emotional about.
Case in point: that guy.
That said, I do recognize Manny's exploits in the postseason, but I still think the trade needed to be made. I strongly believe that Manny will never be Manny again, at least not for us. Better to get something for him while we can than to let the resentment fester and deny us the flexibility to be active during the offseason.
See, I agree with the trade, but you can't say he's not clutch.
Like, I can't agree with that.
Zen Vulgarity on
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HacksawJ. Duggan Esq.Wrestler at LawRegistered Userregular
The thing is this: If you never knew anything about Card, Ender's Game would just be a book that you would enjoy or not enjoy based on your experience with the book. The fact that you know shit about Card is what changes your opinion of the book. But Card never changed. And the book itself hasn't changed. Card was Card before you knew anything about him. And Ender's Game was Ender's Game before you knew anything about Card. So really, nothing in this equation changed but you.
I certainly don't disparage you for disliking the guy. I sure don't like him. He may have written one of my favorite books, but I wouldn't want to hang out with him at a bar or anything. But ultimately I don't see what that has to do with the book which exists now of its own accord.
The thing is that you can't discount some life experiences when reading a book versus others. The reader almost always brings the most to the table in the reading of a book (errr, restricted to just casual reading I suppose). If you learn about Card before reading the book it could possibly open up new interpretive avenues that you would not have seen otherwise just as someone who experienced some form of racism first hand might have a different take on Invisible Man than someone who has not. Someone who has read Kafka a lot might have a completely different reading of The Erasers than someone who preferred Tolkien.
I don't know The Invisible Man, but let's take uhhh Harry Potter. Obviously, if you're a real-life wizard, you're going to have a different interpretation of Harry Potter than someone who isn't. However, knowing about JK Rowlings shouldn't affect your interpretation of the book because while who they are might inform their writing, it doesn't necessarily inform it significantly or at all. And ultimately it doesn't matter, either. If it's a good book, it doesn't matter if the author is a douche. The book is still good. I don't see any value in hero worship, or the opposite, so I don't see any value in liking a piece of art or disliking a piece of art based on its producer.
Posts
My English prof fall semester last year spent many days in England going over Carroll's personal journals and came to the conclusion that he was probably not a pedophile and the charges were trumped up.
You could stop trying to slip quarters into his g-string, for one.
I still like ender's game I guess, but I think if I try to read it now it would just be poisoned for me. I wouldn't be able to read it without his seeing his vitriol drip from the pages.
I do know the approriate response to "What did I tell you about sleeping with strippers?" is "Always wear a condom and unroll the quarters before you throw them." though.
EDIT: It's Eddy's man candy!
Don't worry Eddy, if there is a God then Card will eventually die of the Super AIDS.
And if there is a Mormon God then when we die you and I and Boy can have our own planet together and he won't be invited.
We should not debate it with each other.
Ever.
I'm painfully realizing this now.
Hi there!
full disclosure: Eddy is sitting next to me and I am reading over his shoulder.
I don't want to respond too thoroughly because I don't want to spoil any of these, but I do agree on Children of the Mind.
And I don't know what to say about art not being fully separated from artist. As a writer, I strongly disagree. Especially when it comes to writing because, really, a writer is an actor of sorts. I could write a book that promotes satanism (yes, I mean "promotes") while being a devout Christian. I could satirically lambaste Christianity as a Christian if I wanted to because good writers have the power to put themselves in other perspectives.
It's not really a good idea to associate what a fiction writer writes about with who he is, or vice-versa, and this works both ways. Card is in the unique position of writing something wholly empathic while the man is very clearly an intolerant loon. Others might come off as assholes in their writing and be the nicest people ever. The author is, more or less, completely irrelevant. Only the book itself matters. What exists between front and back cover. Why should ANY external thing matter? What does it matter if JK Rowling's rapes goats or not in her spare time, or if William Gibson secretly hates black people, or whatever? Harry Potter is unchanged. Neuromancer is unchanged. The only thing that has changed is you.
And really, that's a theme Card actually touches on in Speaker. And he's right. Most of the time, people are what they are and things are what they are. What changes rapidly and significantly are our perspectives toward these people based on what we know about them. But really these things are what they are and I think fictional works of art should either speak for themselves or not at all. So, no, the author doesn't matter to me one iota. Only the book, movie, or whatever matters.
Or have we done it?
I certainly don't disparage you for disliking the guy. I sure don't like him. He may have written one of my favorite books, but I wouldn't want to hang out with him at a bar or anything. But ultimately I don't see what that has to do with the book which exists now of its own accord.
And you know, it didn't make me feel bad or sad because it occurs to me that you can't be that fundamentally good and decent and still be fun at a party. Jesus wouldn't actually be fun to party with. It could be enlightening, or deep, or whatever, but it wouldn't be fun.
I love the soundtrack. You can unlock one of the ZoE tracks in MGS4. I've been pretty much listening to the track nonstop as I tromp through the game a second time.
It's a good game, too.
EDIT: And I'm sure Jesus would have been a hoot at parties:
"Hey Jesus, we're out of wine!"
"No problem, just bring me a pitcher of water!"
*Jesus turns the water into wine, and the merriment continues*
I'm usually not a big fan of "debating" sports topics, since they're probably the least important thing that people get the most (stupidly) emotional about.
Case in point: that guy.
That said, I do recognize Manny's exploits in the postseason, but I still think the trade needed to be made. I strongly believe that Manny will never be Manny again, at least not for us. Better to get something for him while we can than to let the resentment fester and deny us the flexibility to be active during the offseason.
No doubt, no doubt.
Eddy told me that you think I'm cute.
I just wanted you to know that I'm rubbing my nipples thinking about your unkempt hair right now.
I'd rather have Dionysus at a party.
The thing is that you can't discount some life experiences when reading a book versus others. The reader almost always brings the most to the table in the reading of a book (errr, restricted to just casual reading I suppose). If you learn about Card before reading the book it could possibly open up new interpretive avenues that you would not have seen otherwise just as someone who experienced some form of racism first hand might have a different take on Invisible Man than someone who has not. Someone who has read Kafka a lot might have a completely different reading of The Erasers than someone who preferred Tolkien.
at first I thought you were saying he was a jack off
regardless that sounds great. My favorite part of intro swimming class was the guys in skimpy outfits and of course the football that got naked in front of me while talking about what we were doing in class that day. I think I nodded and went 'uh huh' and 'yeah' a couple of times
Like, I can't agree with that.
Much like love always defeats hate and evil in the end, so did Mr. Rogers triumph over the machine uprising.
I don't know The Invisible Man, but let's take uhhh Harry Potter. Obviously, if you're a real-life wizard, you're going to have a different interpretation of Harry Potter than someone who isn't. However, knowing about JK Rowlings shouldn't affect your interpretation of the book because while who they are might inform their writing, it doesn't necessarily inform it significantly or at all. And ultimately it doesn't matter, either. If it's a good book, it doesn't matter if the author is a douche. The book is still good. I don't see any value in hero worship, or the opposite, so I don't see any value in liking a piece of art or disliking a piece of art based on its producer.