So don't we need to show why this is harmful for society, and encourages/facilitates bigotry, before we embrace the fundamental argument of PC-ness?
This is aside from actually hurting the feelings of gay people who are listening.
It just seems like we've all assumed bigoted language is dangerous because we don't like it (and I don't like it either) without actually showing it harms anyone.
poshniallo on
I figure I could take a bear.
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Apothe0sisHave you ever questioned the nature of your reality?Registered Userregular
edited October 2008
You know what? I didn't see "gay" used perjoratively as a bad thing for quite a while.
The idea that it was "a homosexual gun, ill suited for killing nazis" didn't really make any sense to me. I always interpretted it as referencing "gay" as in happy(-go-lucky). Which is opposed to serious and so forth.
So, I always interpretted it in my head as meaining "This is a non-serious attempt at a gun" or "ill-concieved, born of an overriding and inappropriate sense of contentment".
I was so disappointed to find out the that no one else used it like I did, as I thought my interpretation to have the distinct advantages of making sense, and amusing me greatly at the same time.
When you say somebody is "retarded" all that means is that their development is slowed. So using it as a derogatory term is offensive to people who have developmental disabilities. If you had diabetes and I started referring to things I didn't like as "that's so diabetic!" how do you think you would feel?
I'm not sure how facetious you're being, but "retarded" is generally another form of lazy speech, for the reasons you've outlined. Add in the fact that there are so many readily available replacements: idiotic, dumb, stupid, empty-minded, foolish, foolhardy, infantile, brain-dead, silly, unintelligent, etc. so on and so forth, there's no great excuse to use it as a general pejorative, considering that it also inscribes negative social attitudes towards the mentally and physically handicapped.
Idotic, dumb, stupid, empty-minded, foolish and unintelligent is insulting to Village Fools. Please start a campain to stop these words.
Foolhardy is insulting to heroes. Please start a campain to stop these words.
Infantile is insulting to babies. Please start a campain to stop these words.
Brain-dead is insulting to Zombies. Please start a campain to stop these words.
I did have a question though. When did "Gay" get to describe Homosexuals instead of being Happy?
According to the online OED, the first usage of gay meaning homosexual came up in 1922, G. STEIN Miss Furr & Miss Skeene.
"Helen Furr and Georgina Keene lived together then... They were together then and traveled to another place and stayed there and were gay there..not very gay there, just gay there. They were both gay there."
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Apothe0sisHave you ever questioned the nature of your reality?Registered Userregular
edited October 2008
I thought it referred to the fact that male prostitutes in London hung out on the corner of Gay Street.
I thought it referred to the fact that male prostitutes in London hung out on the corner of Gay Street.
Have I been misled?
Actually, my example is merely the first written moment when gay was used for its fabulous connotation. It could've very well have been in use verbally way before then.
I mean, do you also just shrug your shoulders when teachers say "he/his" for all examples in class, because it's simply the habit? They're not sexists, they're just lazy with their language. No biggy.
No. NO. FUCK YOU! They aren't the lazy ones; you are the lazy one for not understanding fucking language. "He/his" can be used perfectly fine as a ungendered, generic pronoun. This is a linguistic rule that has existed long before English existed.
Incorrect. "He" cannot be ungendered in English. Want evidence? From here:
The average American needs the small routines of getting ready for work. As he shaves or blow-dries his hair or pulls on his panty hose, he is easing himself by small stages into the demands of the day.
Your challenge, if what you say is true, is to find a single fluent English speaker for whom that sentence does not cause confusion.
Just as an aside, how do people feel about using 'gay' as a synonym for effeminate, in the "fabulous" sense of the word?
Like "Man, the outfits those Final Fantasy 12 characters were wearing were really gay"?
On the one hand, I've known plenty of gay people use the word in this way, on the other, only a couple of the (male) gay people I've known actually acted effeminate at all, so it does seem to be very stereotypic.
So don't we need to show why this is harmful for society, and encourages/facilitates bigotry, before we embrace the fundamental argument of PC-ness?
This is aside from actually hurting the feelings of gay people who are listening.
Aside from that minor and entirely inconsequential consideration
...
Jealous Deva: Yeah, it's stereotyping and probably shouldn't be done. I know it's a common usage among gay people (and I don't really approve there, either), but I think we're crossing into "On the one hand, plenty of black people say the n-word..."
All you have to do to turn around on the whole subject is have someone say "man, that is so fucking gay" in the presence of a gay friend, and be empathetic enough to take some notice of your friend's reaction.
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
So don't we need to show why this is harmful for society, and encourages/facilitates bigotry, before we embrace the fundamental argument of PC-ness?
This is aside from actually hurting the feelings of gay people who are listening.
Aside from that minor and entirely inconsequential consideration
...
Jealous Deva: Yeah, it's stereotyping and probably shouldn't be done. I know it's a common usage among gay people (and I don't really approve there, either), but I think we're crossing into "On the one hand, plenty of black people say the n-word..."
The last point is a big consideration.
However, while that's certainly something that should limit your use, it's not something that should mean you stop using the word in a derogatory fashion.
I call things that annoy me 'cunts' sometimes. That would upset my grandmother greatly. To be honest, taking the Lord's name in vain bothers her. So I limit my speech in deference to her.
That doesn't mean I should stop using swear-words entirely. When I'm around people who aren't offended? OK no problem. When I'm on my own and stub my toe? OK no problem.
Here's a question - if you were on your own entirely, and you saw something that you didn't like, and you said it was 'gay', would that be wrong? Why, exactly?
Sorry -- I know that was snippy. Here's the thing, though -- you actually hit on the crux of the matter, the reason gay as pejorative is so jarring, which is that most (I exclude the entitled CS set) of you would automatically yield to PC if it were black people complaining. The subtext isn't just an implied "gay roughlyequals bad," it's also a strongly-implied "gays are not a class of people I'm worried about offending." And though in a cultural vacuum it's possible that neither of those would be terribly distressing, the situation in America today is that several large and influential religious sects, and a large portion of the general populace, actually isn't at ALL repentant about saying straight-out that homosexuality is evil. In this context...? Bite your tongue.
If you're in an hermetically sealed box with yourself or your straight friends or your gay friends who are TOTALLY okay with it (and not at all keeping silent out of peer-pressure & fear of being seen as hysterical or whiney), well, sure, whatever. I don't think we have the neuroscience yet to conclusively demonstrate the wildly improbable hypothesis that using gay to mean bad reifies the idea that homosexuality is negative, so go ahead, and thread over (right?).
You also don't know who's gay and who isn't in a lot of situations. People I don't know say slurs and gay jokes to me because they don't know, they think they're just including me on their fun.
And as far as young children go it's extremely harmful. Middleschool and highschool are bad enough, but if you grow up as a gay teenager hearing 'that's so gay' 'don't be a fag' it's going to make coming to terms with even more difficult. You grow up getting the idea that your identity is negative pounded into your head again and again.
I hate the idea that "PCness" is somehow authoritarian.
Do you bust out the profanity around your Nana because fuck that cunt I can say what I want? No, you are a decent human being and don't want to cause the old bitch any undue distress by acting a fool.
Why does it become some sort of scary big-brother thing when I request that you display that same common courtesy to people you're not related to? I can't force you not to say things, I don't want to force you not to say things. I want you to think about what you're saying.
Apropos of nothing, an anecdote from work some years ago:
Girl: "It's my boyfriend's birthday, would it be gay if I bought him flowers?"
Me: "If it's for your boyfriend, no, that would kind of be the opposite of gay."
Girl: <blank stare>
I mean, do you also just shrug your shoulders when teachers say "he/his" for all examples in class, because it's simply the habit? They're not sexists, they're just lazy with their language. No biggy.
No. NO. FUCK YOU! They aren't the lazy ones; you are the lazy one for not understanding fucking language. "He/his" can be used perfectly fine as a ungendered, generic pronoun. This is a linguistic rule that has existed long before English existed.
Incorrect. "He" cannot be ungendered in English. Want evidence? From here:
The average American needs the small routines of getting ready for work. As he shaves or blow-dries his hair or pulls on his panty hose, he is easing himself by small stages into the demands of the day.
Your challenge, if what you say is true, is to find a single fluent English speaker for whom that sentence does not cause confusion.
Transvestites. Or for a single example, Eddy Izzard.
I mean, do you also just shrug your shoulders when teachers say "he/his" for all examples in class, because it's simply the habit? They're not sexists, they're just lazy with their language. No biggy.
No. NO. FUCK YOU! They aren't the lazy ones; you are the lazy one for not understanding fucking language. "He/his" can be used perfectly fine as a ungendered, generic pronoun. This is a linguistic rule that has existed long before English existed.
Incorrect. "He" cannot be ungendered in English. Want evidence? From here:
The average American needs the small routines of getting ready for work. As he shaves or blow-dries his hair or pulls on his panty hose, he is easing himself by small stages into the demands of the day.
Your challenge, if what you say is true, is to find a single fluent English speaker for whom that sentence does not cause confusion.
FOR the first time since the Advertising Council was founded in 1942, the organization — which directs and coordinates public service campaigns on behalf of Madison Avenue and the media industry — is introducing ads meant to tackle a social issue of concern to gays and lesbians.
The campaign, which is scheduled to be announced by the council in Washington on Wednesday, will seek to discourage bullying and harassment of teenagers who are gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgender.
The campaign, created pro bono by the New York office of Arnold Worldwide, urges an end to using derogatory language, particularly labeling anything deemed negative or unpleasant as “so gay.†That is underlined by the theme of the campaign: “When you say, ‘That’s so gay,’ do you realize what you say? Knock it off.â€
There will be television and radio commercials, print and outdoor ads and a special Web site devoted to the campaign (thinkb4youspeak.com). Some spots feature celebrities, the young actress Hilary Duff and the comedian Wanda Sykes, delivering the message.
Man, I'm glad it's being done. It's lazy speaking, it's derogatory, and kids should knock it off. I'm sick of the lazy justifications for poor behavior.
Anti-PC Police -- sound your sirens below!!
I think that is so gay.
No but seriously. I don't think it's lazy or derogatory. For all arguments sake the word "gay" in the context we are speaking of has no correlation to the context of sexuality. I believe it has just become another word in today's society. People need to grow some thicker skin, because I have a feeling it isn't going anywhere any time soon.
What slang can I use now for a negative outcome, action, or behavior? I'm mostly a "retarded" user myself. I've have been known to use "gay", but since highschool it quickly left my vocabulary.
Are the original seven dirty words still acceptable? Someone call a b-list celebrity because I need some guidance. How are the slang words on the international front? Maybe I can use those for a while.
I mean, do you also just shrug your shoulders when teachers say "he/his" for all examples in class, because it's simply the habit? They're not sexists, they're just lazy with their language. No biggy.
No. NO. FUCK YOU! They aren't the lazy ones; you are the lazy one for not understanding fucking language. "He/his" can be used perfectly fine as a ungendered, generic pronoun. This is a linguistic rule that has existed long before English existed.
Incorrect. "He" cannot be ungendered in English. Want evidence? From here:
The average American needs the small routines of getting ready for work. As he shaves or blow-dries his hair or pulls on his panty hose, he is easing himself by small stages into the demands of the day.
Your challenge, if what you say is true, is to find a single fluent English speaker for whom that sentence does not cause confusion.
Transvestites. Or for a single example, Eddy Izzard.
That's exactly the confusion I mean. The context of the sentence clearly does not imply transvestitism (as the "average American" is obviously not a transvestite).
It's like saying "He gave birth to a baby boy". You can't wipe out the gender neutrality and then claim gender neutral pronouns don't work.
There is a gender neutral pronoun; it's "they". But that's somewhat aside from the point, being that even if you don't like "they" for that, it is not and cannot be "he", as "he" in English is clearly purely masculine in reference.
Yeah, it gets confusing when you are obviously implying a specific gender but still using the ungendered.
As he shaves or blow-dries his hair or pulls on her panty hose, he is easing himself by small stages into the demands of the day.
Well, the confusion comes from the fact that the sentence obviously isn't implying a specific gender, but a specifically ungendered individual. The average American can just as well be a woman as a man, just as well have a penis as a vagina, just as well wear shave as wear pantyhose. The pronoun "he" is what implies the subject is a man, introducing the confusion.
Again, this is all to demonstrate that "he" can not be used as ungendered, but must be explicitly male.
This is the same reason you need pronoun agreement on gender, and why your sentence doesn't work: "he" and "she" can never, in English, refer to the same antecedent. "He" is masculine and "she" is feminine. Your sentence implies that the subject is not the same person as the owner of the pantyhose.
I think that is so gay.
No but seriously. I don't think it's lazy or derogatory. For all arguments sake the word "gay" in the context we are speaking of has no correlation to the context of sexuality. I believe it has just become another word in today's society. People need to grow some thicker skin, because I have a feeling it isn't going anywhere any time soon.
What is so hard to understand about this? How can the word possibly have no correlation to sexuality? It means homosexual, and people use it because they view homosexuality as a bad thing. And for the last time, even if they don't, it's still like using the n-word and then getting all huffy when a black person gets offended because you 'didn't mean it like that.'
What you mean is irrelevant when you are using it as a negative word.
I think that is so gay.
No but seriously. I don't think it's lazy or derogatory. For all arguments sake the word "gay" in the context we are speaking of has no correlation to the context of sexuality. I believe it has just become another word in today's society. People need to grow some thicker skin, because I have a feeling it isn't going anywhere any time soon.
What is so hard to understand about this? How can the word possibly have no correlation to sexuality? It means homosexual, and people use it because they view homosexuality as a bad thing. And for the last time, even if they don't, it's still like using the n-word and then getting all huffy when a black person gets offended because you 'didn't mean it like that.'
What you mean is irrelevant when you are using it as a negative word.
So if I don't view homosexuality as a bad thing, and I use the word 'gay' to express my thoughts on something that is dumb I'm still wrong? I just don't think that this word has that much power. I truly believe that it is the context that decides the intent of the word. Does anyone get mad when musicals from the 40's use the word gay to express happiness? Does anyone get mad, and in a huff when an Englishmen calls a cigarette a fag? No, because they know that the context of the word isn't malicious in its intent.
I think that is so gay.
No but seriously. I don't think it's lazy or derogatory. For all arguments sake the word "gay" in the context we are speaking of has no correlation to the context of sexuality. I believe it has just become another word in today's society. People need to grow some thicker skin, because I have a feeling it isn't going anywhere any time soon.
What is so hard to understand about this? How can the word possibly have no correlation to sexuality? It means homosexual, and people use it because they view homosexuality as a bad thing. And for the last time, even if they don't, it's still like using the n-word and then getting all huffy when a black person gets offended because you 'didn't mean it like that.'
What you mean is irrelevant when you are using it as a negative word.
So if I don't view homosexuality as a bad thing, and I use the word 'gay' to express my thoughts on something that is dumb I'm still wrong? I just don't think that this word has that much power. I truly believe that it is the context that decides the intent of the word. Does anyone get mad when musicals from the 40's use the word gay to express happiness? Does anyone get mad, and in a huff when an Englishmen calls a cigarette a fag? No, because they know that the context of the word isn't malicious in its intent.
But ... both of those examples you gave involve the proper application of the word in relation to its original meaning.
What Eddy is talking about in those instances when you use the word as a general pejorative, in the slangy "that's so gay" construction. The only way you can tease out a meaning from that to mean "that's so [bad]" is in relation to the societal prejudice against homosexuality. It has no other relation to generalized negativity, and as such using it like that can be very offensive.
It's like Eddy's example with the N-word. Simply because a white person has decided that they're not a racist doesn't mean they can suddenly run around with that word falling off their lips and act surprised when people tell them to knock it off.
For the record, you should no longer use the term "sinister" as a negative adjective as well, because left handed people don't deserve to be treated like that.
For the record, you should no longer use the term "sinister" as a negative adjective as well, because left handed people don't deserve to be treated like that.
Main Entry: he
Pronunciation: \'hē, ē\
Function: pronoun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English hē; akin to Old English hēo she, hit it, Old High German hē he, Latin cis, citra on this side, Greek ekeinos that person
Date: before 12th century
1 : that male one who is neither speaker nor hearer <he is my father> — compare him , his , it , she , they
2 —used in a generic sense or when the sex of the person is unspecified <he that hath ears to hear, let him hear — Matthew 11:15(Authorized Version)><one should do the best he can>
I think that is so gay.
No but seriously. I don't think it's lazy or derogatory. For all arguments sake the word "gay" in the context we are speaking of has no correlation to the context of sexuality. I believe it has just become another word in today's society. People need to grow some thicker skin, because I have a feeling it isn't going anywhere any time soon.
What is so hard to understand about this? How can the word possibly have no correlation to sexuality? It means homosexual, and people use it because they view homosexuality as a bad thing. And for the last time, even if they don't, it's still like using the n-word and then getting all huffy when a black person gets offended because you 'didn't mean it like that.'
What you mean is irrelevant when you are using it as a negative word.
So if I don't view homosexuality as a bad thing, and I use the word 'gay' to express my thoughts on something that is dumb I'm still wrong? I just don't think that this word has that much power. I truly believe that it is the context that decides the intent of the word. Does anyone get mad when musicals from the 40's use the word gay to express happiness? Does anyone get mad, and in a huff when an Englishmen calls a cigarette a fag? No, because they know that the context of the word isn't malicious in its intent.
Are you deliberately being obtuse?
No, because they know that the context of the word isn't malicious in its intent.
And to say "My car got hit, that's so gay" doesn't carry a negative connotation?
When I was at school, kids used to get in a fair bit of trouble for describing things as gay. So by year 11/12, they would instead flat out say "Man, that's homosexual." While playing cards once a guy threw down his hand and said "that round was gayer than AIDS."
Wonder why not a single one of my classmates came out before graduation? I don't think there was a single serious homophobe in my yeargroup but the use of "gay" as a negative term was so pervasive that there was an implied anti-homosexual sentiment through the whole school.
You can't pull the "Oh, language has evolved" line because in this case it hasn't. For language to have evolved past the point where the word gay was being associated negatively with homosexuality would require gay people to have stopped using the word to describe themselves.
When we hit the year 2150 and you meet a homosexually inclined fellow and you say "So, you're gay?" and he says "No, what? Gay what?" THEN you can pull your "it's not malicious! It doesn't mean that anymore" bullshit.
But Feral has accurately pointed out how many here already seem to have no problem with words that use physical (lame) or mental handicaps (retarded) as insults. The cynic in me can't help but recognize the "cause du jour" vs. an actual ethical standpoint.
Yeah but there's a difference. Handicapped people actually do have something wrong with them, by definition. Gay people don't.
There's nothing enabling or enhancing about being a cripple, whereas being gay carries numerous benefits such as greatly enhanced fashion sense, increased intelligence, and an ability to manipulate politics and world events second only to Jews.
When I was at school, kids used to get in a fair bit of trouble for describing things as gay. So by year 11/12, they would instead flat out say "Man, that's homosexual." While playing cards once a guy threw down his hand and said "that round was gayer than AIDS."
Wonder why not a single one of my classmates came out before graduation? I don't think there was a single serious homophobe in my yeargroup but the use of "gay" as a negative term was so pervasive that there was an implied anti-homosexual sentiment through the whole school.
I'd just like to say that people in my school called each other gay all the time, and a whole bunch of them came out before graduation.
You know - "that's so Emma and Julia" sounds a little like cockney rhyming slang. I propose the reintroduction of Cockney Rhyming Slang in order to counteract the negative... Oops, gotta run, the old dog and bone is ringing.
Main Entry: he
Pronunciation: \'hē, ē\
Function: pronoun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English hē; akin to Old English hēo she, hit it, Old High German hē he, Latin cis, citra on this side, Greek ekeinos that person
Date: before 12th century
1 : that male one who is neither speaker nor hearer <he is my father> — compare him , his , it , she , they
2 —used in a generic sense or when the sex of the person is unspecified <he that hath ears to hear, let him hear — Matthew 11:15(Authorized Version)><one should do the best he can>
Oh, please. Number one, language is descriptive, and to my knowledge no one has countered my assertion that there is not one fluent English speaker in the world who would understand "he" as truly ungendered.
Number two, you're trying to get me with an internet dictionary? Here's what the OED has to say on the subject:
A. Forms. () 1- he (6-7 h'); () 2-3 hi; () 2 heo, 3-4 e, ghe; () 3 hæ; () 3-4 ha, 4 ho; () 3 e, 3-9 (dial.) a; () 4-5 hye, 6 hie; () 4-7 hee.
c893 K. ÆLFRED Oros. I. i. §13 He cwæ æt he bude on æm lande. c1386 CHAUCER Prol. 636 Thanne wolde he speke and crie as he were wood. 1598 MARSTON Sco. Villanie x. Hiijb, H'ath made a common-place booke out of plaies. 1647 WARD Simp. Cobler 85 And when h' hath done, 'tis good to lay 't aside.
c1175 Lamb. Hom. 29 And cween in his onke ar hi bi. a1200 Moral Ode 221 Neure in helle hi com.
a1175 Cott. Hom. 217 Heo [God] is hefone liht. Ibid. 225 Heo and his wif a bearn estriende. a1250 Owl & Night. 874 Mid mine songe ich hine pulte That ghe groni for his gulte. c1315 SHOREHAM 123 Tho e [Jesus] was bote twelf wynter ald.
c1205 LAY. 23113 Hæ hafe al his kineriche bi-quee her Loe.
c1250 Kent. Serm. in O.E. Misc. 27 Go, ha seide, into bethleem. Ibid. 30 Ha maket of o watere wyn. c1320 R. BRUNNE Medit. 573 ey hye hym, and ho go withoutyn any stryfe. 1340 Ayenb. 30 Ha beat and smit and wyf and children,..ase ha were out of his wytte.
c1205 LAY. 15636 E [c1275 he] wende at he ilad weore limen for to leosen. c1250 Meid. Maregrete lxiv, E cleped for malcus is monquellere. 1250-1610 [A pron.]. 1756 A. MURPHY Apprentice I. i, I got as far as the jesuit before a went out of town. 1864 TENNYSON North. Farmer (Passim).
13.. Guy Warw. (A.) 6376 And for he him so miseise y-seye Of prisoun aschaped, blie was hye. c1560 A. SCOTT Poems (S.T.S.) iii. 40 Maist witt hes hie that moniest owrsylis. 1596 DALRYMPLE tr. Leslie's Hist. Scot. I. 50 The hie Salmonte haueng castne the meltis, and the sche salmonte the Rounis.
a1300 Cursor M. 17288 + 165 His name neuend hee. c1386 CHAUCER Cook's T. 2 Of a craft of vitailliers was hee. c1440 [see B2]. 1567 [see B7]. 1575 LANEHAM Let. (1871) 23 Hee waz so loth to cum forward. 1611 BIBLE Transl. Pref. 1 Hee was no babe, but a great clearke. 1644 MILTON Areop. (Arb.) 37 That whereof before hee was so scrupulous.
B. Senses and constructions. I. As proper masculine pronoun of the third person, nominative case.
1. a. The male being in question, or last mentioned: Used of persons and animals of the male sex.
c893 K. ÆLFRED Oros. I. i. §13 Ohthere sæde..æt he ealra Normonna normest bude. He cwæ æt he bude on æm lande norweardum wi a Westsæ. c1000 Ags. Ps. (Th.) ix. [x.] 8 Drihten urhwuna on ecnesse. And he earwa his dom-setl, and he dem ealre eoran swye emne. c1175 Lamb. Hom. 7 is witeede dauid..is he witeede bi drihtene urh ene halie gast. c1220 Bestiary 146 e neddre..If he naked man se, ne wile he him not neggen, oc he fle fro him als he fro fir sulde. 1388 WYCLIF Gen. iii. 6 And sche..eet, and af to hir hosebonde, and he eet. a1400-50 Alexander 1141 an drafe he sa to Damac with dukis and princes. c1620 A. HUME Brit. Tongue (1865) 28 He is the noat of the male; as, he is a gud judge; he is a wyse man; he is a speedie horse. 1667 MILTON P.L. IV. 297 For contemplation hee and valour form'd, For softness shee and sweet attractive Grace; Hee for God only, shee for God in him. 1678 CUDWORTH Intell. Syst. I. i. §40. 49 He will go about to prove that there is something besides He-knows-not-what. 1697 DRYDEN Virg. Georg. IV. 700 He first, and close behind him follow'd she. 1835 J. H. NEWMAN Par. Serm. (1837) I. viii. 122 Our Saviour spake of man as he is.
b. In some northern dialects (Westmorland, Cumberland, etc.), he is used instead of thou or you, in addressing a boy or inferior (cf. Ger. Er so used): e.g. ‘Well, Joe! where has he been? what is this he has brought me?’
2. Of things not sexually distinguished: a. Things grammatically masculine. Obs. b. Things personified as masculine, as mountains, rivers, oak-trees, etc.
It is not easy to say when grammatical gender ceased to be used, this differing according to dialect. In dialect speech, he is still used for most things of definite shape, without any feeling of personification.
a1200 Moral Ode 144 Swines brede is swie swete . swa is of wilde dore . alto dore he is abuh[t]. c1320 Cast. Love 40, Ichulle tellen him Wherfore e world was i-wrouht, And aftur how he was bi-tauht. c1386 CHAUCER Can. Yeom. Prol. & T. 314 The Philosophres stoon Elixer clept..With al oure sleighte he wol nat come vs to. c1440 J. CAPGRAVE Life St. Kath. v. 1379 Yet was this fyre soo horryble that hee..Brent men eke. c1449 PECOCK Repr. 4 This present book..he schal have v. principal parties. Ibid. 8 An argument if he be ful and foormal..is mad of twey proposiciouns. 1523 FITZHERB. Husb. §126 The better the stake wyll be dryuen whan he is well bounden. 1551 TURNER Herbal I. Cvja, Dyll..hath..a spokye top as fenell hath, whome he doth represent wonders nere. 1593 SHAKES. Rich. II, III. iii. 65 The blushing discontented Sunne..When he perceiues the enuious Clouds are bent To dimme his glory. 1598 R. GRENEWEY Tacitus' Descr. Germanie iv. 265 That, euerie nation as he was strong, should not set himselfe in possession. 1697 DRYDEN Virg. Georg. II. 409 Jove's own Tree..Full in the midst of his own Strength he stands..His Shade protects the Plains, his Head the Hills commands. 1823 BYRON Island III. i, The flashing..Which robes the cannon as he wings a tomb. 1832 TENNYSON New-Year's Eve ii, Tonight I saw the sun set: he set and left behind The good old year.
3. Peculiar constructions: a. Used pleonastically along with its noun. Common in ballad style, and now in illiterate speech.
c1000 Prose Life St. Guthlac v. (1848) 32 Moyses ærest and Helias hi fæston, and swylce eac se Hælend.. he fæste. 1297 R. GLOUC. (1724) 120 e kyng he sende aftur hem. a1300 Cursor M. 4055 Ioseph he sagh a night in sueuen. c1430 Syr Tryam. 744 The kyngys sone of Armony..To Tryamowre he ranne. 15.. Chevy Chase 74 The first man that did answer make, Was noble Percy hee. 1782 COWPER Gilpin 85 ‘Fair and softly’, John he cried, But John he cried in vain. 1839 LONGFELLOW Wreck of Hesperus iii, The skipper he stood beside the helm.
¶b. Erroneously for objective him.
1560-2 WHITEHORNE Arte Warre (1573-4) II. 36a, These instrumentes helpeth much more him that besiegeth a towne then he that is besieged. 1594 MARLOWE & NASHE Dido V. ii, Yet he, whose heart of adamant or flint, My tears nor plaints could mollify a whit. 1642 tr. Perkins' Prof. Bk. xi. §770. 338 It behoveth not he to be ready upon the land to make the feoffment.
c. In s.w. dialects he is the emphatic objective, beside the unemphatic 'en, 'un. ‘I zeed un drow it tu hee’, I saw him throw it to him.
1863 BARNES Dorset Dial. 23 Gi'e the money to I, not he. 1878 ELWORTHY Grammar of W. Somerset 34 Our objective him is always un, n, unless it is emphatic, when it is ee..uur ded·n zai noa·rt t ee, ‘she did not say anything to he’.
d. he self: earlier form of himself nom., he himself: see SELF.
II. As Antecedent pronoun. followed by relative, etc.: = OE. se, e; Fr. celui; Ger. derjenige, der. (The neuter is that, the plural they or those.)
4. a. The or that man, or person of the male sex (that or who...). Hence Indefinitely, Any man, any one, one, a person (that or who).
a1240 Sawles Warde in Cott. Hom. 259 He sit on heh at is ow on helpe. a1300 Cursor M. 3693 If ou be he i luue sa wele. c1380 Sir Ferumb. 2186 is is he at fader myn ordeyne my lord to be. 1382 WYCLIF Ps. xciii. 9 He that plauntede the ere, shal he not heren? c1400 MANDEVILLE Prol. (1839) 2 He that wil pupplische ony thing. 1523 LD. BERNERS Froiss. I. ix. 8 As he that was yong and lusty desiryng all honoure. 1526 TINDALE Matt. xi. 15 He that hath eares to heare, let him here. 1581 G. PETTIE Guazzo's Civ. Conv. II. (1586) 77 There is not he, who is not glad with all his heart to be honoured. 1590 SPENSER F.Q. I. i. 43 He that the stubborne Sprites can wisely tame. 1590 SHAKES. Mids. N. II. i. 34 Are you not hee, That frights the maidens of the Villagree? 1712 ADDISON Spect. No. 441 4 He who considers himself abstractedly. 1842 TENNYSON Vision of Sin 127 He that roars for liberty. 1859 Elaine 1083 He makes no friend who never made a foe.
b. Followed by a prepositional phrase; as ‘he of Modena’, ‘he of the sevenfold shield’, ‘he with the scar on his face’. arch.
1598 SHAKES. Merry W. I. i. 173 He in the red face had it. 1644 MILTON Areop. (Arb.) 39 If he of the bottomlesse pit had not long since broke prison. a1821 KEATS 2nd Sonn. to Haydon, Great spirits now on earth are sojourning; He of the cloud, the cataract, the lake.
III. As demonstrative pronoun.
5. he and he: this and that, the one and the other, both. arch.
a1300 Cursor M. 16161 For he and he had samen ben, forwit selcuth wrath. c1381 CHAUCER Parl. Foules 166 It likyth hym at wrastelyng for to be, And demyn it wher he do bet or he. 1513 DOUGLAS Æneis VI. xii. 68 And gan begyn desyre, baith he and he, In bodeis it for to returne agane. 1535 STEWART Cron. Scot. I. 371 Talkand thai raid togidder to the toun, Hand for hand rycht hamelie he and he. c1620 A. HUME Brit. Tongue vii. (1865) 18 He snapped me on this hand and he on that. 1848 CLOUGH Bothie iii. 20 Arthur..Leapt from the ledges with Hope, he twenty feet, he thirty. 1876 TENNYSON Harold Introd. Sonn., But he and he, if soul be soul, are where Each stands full face with all he did below.
IV. As n. (not changing in the objective).
6. a. Man, person, personage. any he: any person whatever. arch. and poet.
c1384 CHAUCER H. Fame III. 979 And nat so sone departed nas That he fro him, thoo he ne mette With the thrid. 1472 SIR JOHN PASTON in Lett. No. 703 III. 59, I mente weell by my trowthe to hyr..as any he that owythe heer best wyll in Ingelond. 1538 BALE Thre Lawes 1439, I am no other but euen the very he. 1574 tr. Marlorat's Apocalips 25 The way, truth, and lyfe, and to be short, the only he that can saue vs for euer. 1652-62 HEYLIN Cosmogr. III. (1673) 150/1 Who..challenged the proudest He of the Macedonians, to a single combat. 1682 BUNYAN Holy War (Cassell) 275 He has shewed as much honesty and bravery of spirit as any he in Mansoul. 1742 FIELDING J. Andrews (L.), The best he in the kingdom. 1880 G. MEREDITH Trag. Com. (1881) 230 Hethat great hecovers all.
b. = IT pron. 1f. Also a game of this type.
1810 Gammer Gurton's Garland III. 31 One-ery, two-ery, Ziccary zan; Hollow bone, crack a bone, Ninery ten:.. Stick, stock, stone dead, Blind man can't see, Every knave, will have a slave, You or I must be He. 1863 Boy's Handy Bk. of Sports I. 8 Touch is a very simple game... One of the ten or twelve..is chosen..to use the approved schoolboy expression..‘he’. 1893 Funk's Stand. Dict., He, sometimes, the leader of a game, or one who takes some special part in it. 1900 E. V. & E. LUCAS What shall we do Now? 113 For a short time ‘He’ is a good warming game. It is the simplest of all games. The ‘He’ runs after the others until he touches one. The one touched then becomes ‘He’. 1902 Little Folks Aug. 113/1 Let's play ‘Touch last’. Look out, I'm ‘He’! 1924 W. DE LA MARE Ding Dong Bell 23 'Twas life's bright game And Death was ‘he’. 1937 HULL & WHITLOCK Far-Distant Oxus ii. 40 It was not real hide-and-seek..but..a wild game of ‘he’. 1960 S. H. COURTIER Gently dust Corpse iv. 43 The youngsters had played a game of hide-and-seek. In the course of one of Pete's turns as ‘he’..he sallied into the hall. 1969 I. & P. OPIE Children's Games ii. 64 We played He and I was had, so I had to be he.
7. a. Opposed to she: Male. (Also as adj.: see 8.)
c950 Lindisf. Gosp. Mark x. 6 From fruma..scæftes woepen mon vel hee and hiuu vel wifmon worhte hia god. Luke ii. 23 Ehuelc he vel woepen-mon to-untynes hrif..hali drihtne e-ceied. c1000 ÆLFRIC Gram. vii. (Z.) 18 Ælc nyten by oe he oe heo. Ibid. 19 Hic coruus es hremn, swa hwæer swa hit by, swa he, swa heo. 1567 J. MAPLET Gr. Forest 105 It is also carefull in laying vp store for Winter, both the Hee and Shee. 1888 Sat. Rev. 20 Oct. 467/1 Any one not a poet, whether he or she, might toil, [etc.].
b. A male. (With pl. hes, he's, hees.)
8. a. Male. (Now confined to the lower animals, as he-goat; in 16-18th c. with nouns denoting persons; this is now contemptuous.) he-she: see quots. 1661, 1754.
a1300 Cursor M. 6067 A clene he lambe, wit-vten sake. 14.. Voc. in Wr.-Wülcker 571/24 Catta, a hecatte. 1509 Test. Ebor. (Surtees) 10 Oon he swan. 1535 COVERDALE Dan. viii. 5 Then came there an hegoate from the west. 1579 FULKE Refut. Rastell 759 Be there hee Angels and she Angels also? 1580 HOLLYBAND Treas. Fr. Tong, Vn Amoureux, a hee louer. Amoureuse, a shee louer. Ibid., Barbier, a hee barber. 1596 [see A]. 1605 Jeronimo in Hazl. Dodsley IV. 357 I'll be the he-one then, and rid thee soon Of this dull, leaden, and tormenting elf. 1620 SHELTON Quix. IV. xxi. 171 Thou and thy Wife, with two of thy He-friends, and two of her She-friends. a1661 FULLER Worthies (1840) I. iv. 15 Pope Joan..this He-she..is generally believed born at Metz. 1665 PEPYS Diary 11 June, My aunt James and he-cosen Harman. 1692 WASHINGTON tr. Milton's Def. Pop. viii. (1851) 193 You now make He-Saints, and She-Saints, at your pleasure, as if you were a true genuine Pope. 1734 FIELDING Univ. Gallant I. Wks. 1882 X. 44 A woman..may speak to one of her husband's he-friends there. 1754 J. SHEBBEARE Matrimony (1766) II. 88 A He-she Thing! a Disgrace to his Sex. 1813 MOORE Post-bag iii. 8 A He-cook, of course!..ne'er keep a She-cook. 1829 MARRYAT F. Mildmay xxii, Great he-fellows of footmen. 1836 Hansard's Parl. Deb. Ser. III. XXXII. 1201 The appropriate language of a noble Lord..who..said, ‘I have not risen to defend these he-pensioners, and she-pensioners, whom I find in this list’. 1855 SINGLETON Virgil I. 46 Safe is thy he-goat.
b. Sometimes with names of plants. he-oak, an Australian tree, Casuarina stricta; also C. suberosa. Cf. SHE-OAK, applied to other species.
1626 BACON Sylva §608 For the difference of Sexes in Plants, they are oftentimes by name distinguished; as Male-Piony, Female-Piony..He-Holly, She-Holly. 1876 Forest & Stream 13 July 375/3 ‘Wattle’ in large variety, he-oak, she-oak, and very many others. 1880 FISON & HOWITT Kamilaroi 252 They chose a tall He-oak, lopped it to a point.
c. Of things. Cf. male and female screw.
1816 Specif. J. Welch's Patent No. 4052 The claws or prongs of the he part received or inserted in the she part.
d. spec. he-man orig. U.S., a particularly strong, virile, or masterful man. Also attrib. So he-male; he-mannish a.
1832 J. K. PAULDING Westward Ho! I. 101 A young fellow who could..tree a rackoon with any he man that ever breathed in all out of doors. 1909 J. R. WARE Passing Eng., He-male, a full shape of male, and resulting from calling female she-male. 1922 C. E. MULFORD Tex xiv. 207 Yo're about th' best he-man I've seen since I looked into a looking-glass. 1924 A. J. SMALL Frozen Gold vii, He's such a great big he-male-masculine man. 1926 Times Lit. Suppl. 25 Feb. 147/4 That was in the late nineties, when the ‘real he-men’..had not attained the softer exterior of the civilization they despised. 1926 S. LEWIS Mantrap v. 48 Woodbury was a zealot at showing how lusty and he-mannish he could be. 1931 W. HOLTBY Poor Caroline vi. 111 ‘And how was our friend Johnson?’ asked Basil. ‘More he-mannish, dirty and businesslike than ever.’ 1931 L. STEFFENS Autobiogr. I. 406 The rulers of his city, who knew what he knew and knew also what a he man was, held him to be the First Citizen of Pittsburgh. 1931 Punch 22 July 60/1 One of their [sc. the Americans'] hundred-per-cent he-men. 1934 N.Z. Alpine Jrnl. V. XXI. 412 Mt Whitcombe is the ‘he-man’ peak of the Ramsay and Lyell Valleys. 1937 D. L. SAYERS Busman's Honeymoon v. 93 Strong, he-man stuff. 1955 W. GADDIS Recognitions I. vi. 204 That wonderful he-man aroma that girls really go for. 1961 Times 2 Mar. 15/5 Why is the American way of life now so infantilist..when it was notoriously he-mannish?
e. He Bible: the first of the two issues of the Bible printed in 1611, so called from its rendering of Ruth iii. 15.
1878 [see She Bible (SHE pers. pron. 13)]. 1888 J. R. DORE Old Bibles (ed. 2) 329 A ‘He’ Bible used as ‘copy’ at one printing office, and a ‘She’ Bible at another. 1911 A. W. POLLARD Records English Bible iii. 72 The first edition of the translation is frequently called the He-Bible and the second the She-Bible.
Hence he v. trans., to speak to or of (a person) as ‘he’.
1741 RICHARDSON Pamela I. 17, I must he and him him now; for he has lost his Dignity with me.
Note that it correctly identifies the use of "he" as solely masculine.
In cases such as that second Webster definition, the subject is implicitly assumed to be male. This is obvious in a sentence which makes it explicit that the subject might be either male or female.
Um, no, your second definition also says no sexual distinction. Wtf is wrong with you?
First, I'm sorry if I've come off as combative about this. This is just interesting to me right now, it's not really something I get angry about
Secondly, you've misread that. "2. Of things not sexually distinguished: a. Things grammatically masculine. Obs. b. Things personified as masculine, as mountains, rivers, oak-trees, etc." means things that do not have a literal sex, but a grammatical gender or sexual personification. It is still purely male.
It's a sad state of affairs when people can be offended by mere words instead of taking the time to look inward and realize that the sum of all ones experiences and behaviors amount to much more.
Yeah, well language is descriptive, and a lot of people use and understand the gender-neutral version of he and get confused by using they as a singular.
Yeah, well language is descriptive, and a lot of people use and understand the gender-neutral version of he and get confused by using they as a singular.
Again, there is no gender-neutral "he", only an implicitly rather than explicitly masculine one. And I don't accept that "they" as a singular is confusing for the majority of English speakers*; again, complete the sentence "Someone left the room, didn't ___?"
*In every situation. Keep in mind that sometimes grammar just is confusing. We only have one pronoun for "you", for example. But I'll bet you cash money that the people who get so uptight about "they" aren't the same people pushing for us to adopt "y'all" as the plural. Call that a hunch.
Posts
This is aside from actually hurting the feelings of gay people who are listening.
It just seems like we've all assumed bigoted language is dangerous because we don't like it (and I don't like it either) without actually showing it harms anyone.
The idea that it was "a homosexual gun, ill suited for killing nazis" didn't really make any sense to me. I always interpretted it as referencing "gay" as in happy(-go-lucky). Which is opposed to serious and so forth.
So, I always interpretted it in my head as meaining "This is a non-serious attempt at a gun" or "ill-concieved, born of an overriding and inappropriate sense of contentment".
I was so disappointed to find out the that no one else used it like I did, as I thought my interpretation to have the distinct advantages of making sense, and amusing me greatly at the same time.
According to the online OED, the first usage of gay meaning homosexual came up in 1922, G. STEIN Miss Furr & Miss Skeene.
"Helen Furr and Georgina Keene lived together then... They were together then and traveled to another place and stayed there and were gay there..not very gay there, just gay there. They were both gay there."
Have I been misled?
Actually, my example is merely the first written moment when gay was used for its fabulous connotation. It could've very well have been in use verbally way before then.
Incorrect. "He" cannot be ungendered in English. Want evidence? From here:
Your challenge, if what you say is true, is to find a single fluent English speaker for whom that sentence does not cause confusion.
Like "Man, the outfits those Final Fantasy 12 characters were wearing were really gay"?
On the one hand, I've known plenty of gay people use the word in this way, on the other, only a couple of the (male) gay people I've known actually acted effeminate at all, so it does seem to be very stereotypic.
Aside from that minor and entirely inconsequential consideration
...
Jealous Deva: Yeah, it's stereotyping and probably shouldn't be done. I know it's a common usage among gay people (and I don't really approve there, either), but I think we're crossing into "On the one hand, plenty of black people say the n-word..."
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
The last point is a big consideration.
However, while that's certainly something that should limit your use, it's not something that should mean you stop using the word in a derogatory fashion.
I call things that annoy me 'cunts' sometimes. That would upset my grandmother greatly. To be honest, taking the Lord's name in vain bothers her. So I limit my speech in deference to her.
That doesn't mean I should stop using swear-words entirely. When I'm around people who aren't offended? OK no problem. When I'm on my own and stub my toe? OK no problem.
Here's a question - if you were on your own entirely, and you saw something that you didn't like, and you said it was 'gay', would that be wrong? Why, exactly?
If you're in an hermetically sealed box with yourself or your straight friends or your gay friends who are TOTALLY okay with it (and not at all keeping silent out of peer-pressure & fear of being seen as hysterical or whiney), well, sure, whatever. I don't think we have the neuroscience yet to conclusively demonstrate the wildly improbable hypothesis that using gay to mean bad reifies the idea that homosexuality is negative, so go ahead, and thread over (right?).
And as far as young children go it's extremely harmful. Middleschool and highschool are bad enough, but if you grow up as a gay teenager hearing 'that's so gay' 'don't be a fag' it's going to make coming to terms with even more difficult. You grow up getting the idea that your identity is negative pounded into your head again and again.
Do you bust out the profanity around your Nana because fuck that cunt I can say what I want? No, you are a decent human being and don't want to cause the old bitch any undue distress by acting a fool.
Why does it become some sort of scary big-brother thing when I request that you display that same common courtesy to people you're not related to? I can't force you not to say things, I don't want to force you not to say things. I want you to think about what you're saying.
Girl: "It's my boyfriend's birthday, would it be gay if I bought him flowers?"
Me: "If it's for your boyfriend, no, that would kind of be the opposite of gay."
Girl: <blank stare>
Transvestites. Or for a single example, Eddy Izzard.
As he shaves or blow-dries his hair or pulls on her panty hose, he is easing himself by small stages into the demands of the day.
It's like saying "He gave birth to a baby boy". You can't wipe out the gender neutrality and then claim gender neutral pronouns don't work.
I think that is so gay.
No but seriously. I don't think it's lazy or derogatory. For all arguments sake the word "gay" in the context we are speaking of has no correlation to the context of sexuality. I believe it has just become another word in today's society. People need to grow some thicker skin, because I have a feeling it isn't going anywhere any time soon.
Does it make me a bad person for laughing at that?
GM: Rusty Chains (DH Ongoing)
That's exactly the confusion I mean. The context of the sentence clearly does not imply transvestitism (as the "average American" is obviously not a transvestite).
There is a gender neutral pronoun; it's "they". But that's somewhat aside from the point, being that even if you don't like "they" for that, it is not and cannot be "he", as "he" in English is clearly purely masculine in reference.
Well, the confusion comes from the fact that the sentence obviously isn't implying a specific gender, but a specifically ungendered individual. The average American can just as well be a woman as a man, just as well have a penis as a vagina, just as well wear shave as wear pantyhose. The pronoun "he" is what implies the subject is a man, introducing the confusion.
Again, this is all to demonstrate that "he" can not be used as ungendered, but must be explicitly male.
This is the same reason you need pronoun agreement on gender, and why your sentence doesn't work: "he" and "she" can never, in English, refer to the same antecedent. "He" is masculine and "she" is feminine. Your sentence implies that the subject is not the same person as the owner of the pantyhose.
What is so hard to understand about this? How can the word possibly have no correlation to sexuality? It means homosexual, and people use it because they view homosexuality as a bad thing. And for the last time, even if they don't, it's still like using the n-word and then getting all huffy when a black person gets offended because you 'didn't mean it like that.'
What you mean is irrelevant when you are using it as a negative word.
So if I don't view homosexuality as a bad thing, and I use the word 'gay' to express my thoughts on something that is dumb I'm still wrong? I just don't think that this word has that much power. I truly believe that it is the context that decides the intent of the word. Does anyone get mad when musicals from the 40's use the word gay to express happiness? Does anyone get mad, and in a huff when an Englishmen calls a cigarette a fag? No, because they know that the context of the word isn't malicious in its intent.
What Eddy is talking about in those instances when you use the word as a general pejorative, in the slangy "that's so gay" construction. The only way you can tease out a meaning from that to mean "that's so [bad]" is in relation to the societal prejudice against homosexuality. It has no other relation to generalized negativity, and as such using it like that can be very offensive.
It's like Eddy's example with the N-word. Simply because a white person has decided that they're not a racist doesn't mean they can suddenly run around with that word falling off their lips and act surprised when people tell them to knock it off.
Pronunciation: \'hē, ē\
Function: pronoun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English hē; akin to Old English hēo she, hit it, Old High German hē he, Latin cis, citra on this side, Greek ekeinos that person
Date: before 12th century
1 : that male one who is neither speaker nor hearer <he is my father> — compare him , his , it , she , they
2 —used in a generic sense or when the sex of the person is unspecified <he that hath ears to hear, let him hear — Matthew 11:15(Authorized Version)><one should do the best he can>
Source:
"he." Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary. 2008.
Merriam-Webster Online. 14 October 2008
<http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/he>
Shut up.
Are you deliberately being obtuse?
And to say "My car got hit, that's so gay" doesn't carry a negative connotation?
When I was at school, kids used to get in a fair bit of trouble for describing things as gay. So by year 11/12, they would instead flat out say "Man, that's homosexual." While playing cards once a guy threw down his hand and said "that round was gayer than AIDS."
Wonder why not a single one of my classmates came out before graduation? I don't think there was a single serious homophobe in my yeargroup but the use of "gay" as a negative term was so pervasive that there was an implied anti-homosexual sentiment through the whole school.
You can't pull the "Oh, language has evolved" line because in this case it hasn't. For language to have evolved past the point where the word gay was being associated negatively with homosexuality would require gay people to have stopped using the word to describe themselves.
When we hit the year 2150 and you meet a homosexually inclined fellow and you say "So, you're gay?" and he says "No, what? Gay what?" THEN you can pull your "it's not malicious! It doesn't mean that anymore" bullshit.
Yeah but there's a difference. Handicapped people actually do have something wrong with them, by definition. Gay people don't.
There's nothing enabling or enhancing about being a cripple, whereas being gay carries numerous benefits such as greatly enhanced fashion sense, increased intelligence, and an ability to manipulate politics and world events second only to Jews.
I'd just like to say that people in my school called each other gay all the time, and a whole bunch of them came out before graduation.
anecdote anecdote lololol
3DS: 1607-3034-6970
You know - "that's so Emma and Julia" sounds a little like cockney rhyming slang. I propose the reintroduction of Cockney Rhyming Slang in order to counteract the negative... Oops, gotta run, the old dog and bone is ringing.
Oh, please. Number one, language is descriptive, and to my knowledge no one has countered my assertion that there is not one fluent English speaker in the world who would understand "he" as truly ungendered.
Number two, you're trying to get me with an internet dictionary? Here's what the OED has to say on the subject:
c893 K. ÆLFRED Oros. I. i. §13 He cwæ æt he bude on æm lande. c1386 CHAUCER Prol. 636 Thanne wolde he speke and crie as he were wood. 1598 MARSTON Sco. Villanie x. Hiijb, H'ath made a common-place booke out of plaies. 1647 WARD Simp. Cobler 85 And when h' hath done, 'tis good to lay 't aside.
c1175 Lamb. Hom. 29 And cween in his onke ar hi bi. a1200 Moral Ode 221 Neure in helle hi com.
a1175 Cott. Hom. 217 Heo [God] is hefone liht. Ibid. 225 Heo and his wif a bearn estriende. a1250 Owl & Night. 874 Mid mine songe ich hine pulte That ghe groni for his gulte. c1315 SHOREHAM 123 Tho e [Jesus] was bote twelf wynter ald.
c1205 LAY. 23113 Hæ hafe al his kineriche bi-quee her Loe.
c1250 Kent. Serm. in O.E. Misc. 27 Go, ha seide, into bethleem. Ibid. 30 Ha maket of o watere wyn. c1320 R. BRUNNE Medit. 573 ey hye hym, and ho go withoutyn any stryfe. 1340 Ayenb. 30 Ha beat and smit and wyf and children,..ase ha were out of his wytte.
c1205 LAY. 15636 E [c1275 he] wende at he ilad weore limen for to leosen. c1250 Meid. Maregrete lxiv, E cleped for malcus is monquellere. 1250-1610 [A pron.]. 1756 A. MURPHY Apprentice I. i, I got as far as the jesuit before a went out of town. 1864 TENNYSON North. Farmer (Passim).
13.. Guy Warw. (A.) 6376 And for he him so miseise y-seye Of prisoun aschaped, blie was hye. c1560 A. SCOTT Poems (S.T.S.) iii. 40 Maist witt hes hie that moniest owrsylis. 1596 DALRYMPLE tr. Leslie's Hist. Scot. I. 50 The hie Salmonte haueng castne the meltis, and the sche salmonte the Rounis.
a1300 Cursor M. 17288 + 165 His name neuend hee. c1386 CHAUCER Cook's T. 2 Of a craft of vitailliers was hee. c1440 [see B2]. 1567 [see B7]. 1575 LANEHAM Let. (1871) 23 Hee waz so loth to cum forward. 1611 BIBLE Transl. Pref. 1 Hee was no babe, but a great clearke. 1644 MILTON Areop. (Arb.) 37 That whereof before hee was so scrupulous.
B. Senses and constructions. I. As proper masculine pronoun of the third person, nominative case.
1. a. The male being in question, or last mentioned: Used of persons and animals of the male sex.
c893 K. ÆLFRED Oros. I. i. §13 Ohthere sæde..æt he ealra Normonna normest bude. He cwæ æt he bude on æm lande norweardum wi a Westsæ. c1000 Ags. Ps. (Th.) ix. [x.] 8 Drihten urhwuna on ecnesse. And he earwa his dom-setl, and he dem ealre eoran swye emne. c1175 Lamb. Hom. 7 is witeede dauid..is he witeede bi drihtene urh ene halie gast. c1220 Bestiary 146 e neddre..If he naked man se, ne wile he him not neggen, oc he fle fro him als he fro fir sulde. 1388 WYCLIF Gen. iii. 6 And sche..eet, and af to hir hosebonde, and he eet. a1400-50 Alexander 1141 an drafe he sa to Damac with dukis and princes. c1620 A. HUME Brit. Tongue (1865) 28 He is the noat of the male; as, he is a gud judge; he is a wyse man; he is a speedie horse. 1667 MILTON P.L. IV. 297 For contemplation hee and valour form'd, For softness shee and sweet attractive Grace; Hee for God only, shee for God in him. 1678 CUDWORTH Intell. Syst. I. i. §40. 49 He will go about to prove that there is something besides He-knows-not-what. 1697 DRYDEN Virg. Georg. IV. 700 He first, and close behind him follow'd she. 1835 J. H. NEWMAN Par. Serm. (1837) I. viii. 122 Our Saviour spake of man as he is.
b. In some northern dialects (Westmorland, Cumberland, etc.), he is used instead of thou or you, in addressing a boy or inferior (cf. Ger. Er so used): e.g. ‘Well, Joe! where has he been? what is this he has brought me?’
2. Of things not sexually distinguished: a. Things grammatically masculine. Obs. b. Things personified as masculine, as mountains, rivers, oak-trees, etc.
It is not easy to say when grammatical gender ceased to be used, this differing according to dialect. In dialect speech, he is still used for most things of definite shape, without any feeling of personification.
a1200 Moral Ode 144 Swines brede is swie swete . swa is of wilde dore . alto dore he is abuh[t]. c1320 Cast. Love 40, Ichulle tellen him Wherfore e world was i-wrouht, And aftur how he was bi-tauht. c1386 CHAUCER Can. Yeom. Prol. & T. 314 The Philosophres stoon Elixer clept..With al oure sleighte he wol nat come vs to. c1440 J. CAPGRAVE Life St. Kath. v. 1379 Yet was this fyre soo horryble that hee..Brent men eke. c1449 PECOCK Repr. 4 This present book..he schal have v. principal parties. Ibid. 8 An argument if he be ful and foormal..is mad of twey proposiciouns. 1523 FITZHERB. Husb. §126 The better the stake wyll be dryuen whan he is well bounden. 1551 TURNER Herbal I. Cvja, Dyll..hath..a spokye top as fenell hath, whome he doth represent wonders nere. 1593 SHAKES. Rich. II, III. iii. 65 The blushing discontented Sunne..When he perceiues the enuious Clouds are bent To dimme his glory. 1598 R. GRENEWEY Tacitus' Descr. Germanie iv. 265 That, euerie nation as he was strong, should not set himselfe in possession. 1697 DRYDEN Virg. Georg. II. 409 Jove's own Tree..Full in the midst of his own Strength he stands..His Shade protects the Plains, his Head the Hills commands. 1823 BYRON Island III. i, The flashing..Which robes the cannon as he wings a tomb. 1832 TENNYSON New-Year's Eve ii, Tonight I saw the sun set: he set and left behind The good old year.
3. Peculiar constructions: a. Used pleonastically along with its noun. Common in ballad style, and now in illiterate speech.
c1000 Prose Life St. Guthlac v. (1848) 32 Moyses ærest and Helias hi fæston, and swylce eac se Hælend.. he fæste. 1297 R. GLOUC. (1724) 120 e kyng he sende aftur hem. a1300 Cursor M. 4055 Ioseph he sagh a night in sueuen. c1430 Syr Tryam. 744 The kyngys sone of Armony..To Tryamowre he ranne. 15.. Chevy Chase 74 The first man that did answer make, Was noble Percy hee. 1782 COWPER Gilpin 85 ‘Fair and softly’, John he cried, But John he cried in vain. 1839 LONGFELLOW Wreck of Hesperus iii, The skipper he stood beside the helm.
¶b. Erroneously for objective him.
1560-2 WHITEHORNE Arte Warre (1573-4) II. 36a, These instrumentes helpeth much more him that besiegeth a towne then he that is besieged. 1594 MARLOWE & NASHE Dido V. ii, Yet he, whose heart of adamant or flint, My tears nor plaints could mollify a whit. 1642 tr. Perkins' Prof. Bk. xi. §770. 338 It behoveth not he to be ready upon the land to make the feoffment.
c. In s.w. dialects he is the emphatic objective, beside the unemphatic 'en, 'un. ‘I zeed un drow it tu hee’, I saw him throw it to him.
1863 BARNES Dorset Dial. 23 Gi'e the money to I, not he. 1878 ELWORTHY Grammar of W. Somerset 34 Our objective him is always un, n, unless it is emphatic, when it is ee..uur ded·n zai noa·rt t ee, ‘she did not say anything to he’.
d. he self: earlier form of himself nom., he himself: see SELF.
II. As Antecedent pronoun. followed by relative, etc.: = OE. se, e; Fr. celui; Ger. derjenige, der. (The neuter is that, the plural they or those.)
4. a. The or that man, or person of the male sex (that or who...). Hence Indefinitely, Any man, any one, one, a person (that or who).
a1240 Sawles Warde in Cott. Hom. 259 He sit on heh at is ow on helpe. a1300 Cursor M. 3693 If ou be he i luue sa wele. c1380 Sir Ferumb. 2186 is is he at fader myn ordeyne my lord to be. 1382 WYCLIF Ps. xciii. 9 He that plauntede the ere, shal he not heren? c1400 MANDEVILLE Prol. (1839) 2 He that wil pupplische ony thing. 1523 LD. BERNERS Froiss. I. ix. 8 As he that was yong and lusty desiryng all honoure. 1526 TINDALE Matt. xi. 15 He that hath eares to heare, let him here. 1581 G. PETTIE Guazzo's Civ. Conv. II. (1586) 77 There is not he, who is not glad with all his heart to be honoured. 1590 SPENSER F.Q. I. i. 43 He that the stubborne Sprites can wisely tame. 1590 SHAKES. Mids. N. II. i. 34 Are you not hee, That frights the maidens of the Villagree? 1712 ADDISON Spect. No. 441 4 He who considers himself abstractedly. 1842 TENNYSON Vision of Sin 127 He that roars for liberty. 1859 Elaine 1083 He makes no friend who never made a foe.
b. Followed by a prepositional phrase; as ‘he of Modena’, ‘he of the sevenfold shield’, ‘he with the scar on his face’. arch.
1598 SHAKES. Merry W. I. i. 173 He in the red face had it. 1644 MILTON Areop. (Arb.) 39 If he of the bottomlesse pit had not long since broke prison. a1821 KEATS 2nd Sonn. to Haydon, Great spirits now on earth are sojourning; He of the cloud, the cataract, the lake.
III. As demonstrative pronoun.
5. he and he: this and that, the one and the other, both. arch.
a1300 Cursor M. 16161 For he and he had samen ben, forwit selcuth wrath. c1381 CHAUCER Parl. Foules 166 It likyth hym at wrastelyng for to be, And demyn it wher he do bet or he. 1513 DOUGLAS Æneis VI. xii. 68 And gan begyn desyre, baith he and he, In bodeis it for to returne agane. 1535 STEWART Cron. Scot. I. 371 Talkand thai raid togidder to the toun, Hand for hand rycht hamelie he and he. c1620 A. HUME Brit. Tongue vii. (1865) 18 He snapped me on this hand and he on that. 1848 CLOUGH Bothie iii. 20 Arthur..Leapt from the ledges with Hope, he twenty feet, he thirty. 1876 TENNYSON Harold Introd. Sonn., But he and he, if soul be soul, are where Each stands full face with all he did below.
IV. As n. (not changing in the objective).
6. a. Man, person, personage. any he: any person whatever. arch. and poet.
c1384 CHAUCER H. Fame III. 979 And nat so sone departed nas That he fro him, thoo he ne mette With the thrid. 1472 SIR JOHN PASTON in Lett. No. 703 III. 59, I mente weell by my trowthe to hyr..as any he that owythe heer best wyll in Ingelond. 1538 BALE Thre Lawes 1439, I am no other but euen the very he. 1574 tr. Marlorat's Apocalips 25 The way, truth, and lyfe, and to be short, the only he that can saue vs for euer. 1652-62 HEYLIN Cosmogr. III. (1673) 150/1 Who..challenged the proudest He of the Macedonians, to a single combat. 1682 BUNYAN Holy War (Cassell) 275 He has shewed as much honesty and bravery of spirit as any he in Mansoul. 1742 FIELDING J. Andrews (L.), The best he in the kingdom. 1880 G. MEREDITH Trag. Com. (1881) 230 Hethat great hecovers all.
b. = IT pron. 1f. Also a game of this type.
1810 Gammer Gurton's Garland III. 31 One-ery, two-ery, Ziccary zan; Hollow bone, crack a bone, Ninery ten:.. Stick, stock, stone dead, Blind man can't see, Every knave, will have a slave, You or I must be He. 1863 Boy's Handy Bk. of Sports I. 8 Touch is a very simple game... One of the ten or twelve..is chosen..to use the approved schoolboy expression..‘he’. 1893 Funk's Stand. Dict., He, sometimes, the leader of a game, or one who takes some special part in it. 1900 E. V. & E. LUCAS What shall we do Now? 113 For a short time ‘He’ is a good warming game. It is the simplest of all games. The ‘He’ runs after the others until he touches one. The one touched then becomes ‘He’. 1902 Little Folks Aug. 113/1 Let's play ‘Touch last’. Look out, I'm ‘He’! 1924 W. DE LA MARE Ding Dong Bell 23 'Twas life's bright game And Death was ‘he’. 1937 HULL & WHITLOCK Far-Distant Oxus ii. 40 It was not real hide-and-seek..but..a wild game of ‘he’. 1960 S. H. COURTIER Gently dust Corpse iv. 43 The youngsters had played a game of hide-and-seek. In the course of one of Pete's turns as ‘he’..he sallied into the hall. 1969 I. & P. OPIE Children's Games ii. 64 We played He and I was had, so I had to be he.
7. a. Opposed to she: Male. (Also as adj.: see 8.)
c950 Lindisf. Gosp. Mark x. 6 From fruma..scæftes woepen mon vel hee and hiuu vel wifmon worhte hia god. Luke ii. 23 Ehuelc he vel woepen-mon to-untynes hrif..hali drihtne e-ceied. c1000 ÆLFRIC Gram. vii. (Z.) 18 Ælc nyten by oe he oe heo. Ibid. 19 Hic coruus es hremn, swa hwæer swa hit by, swa he, swa heo. 1567 J. MAPLET Gr. Forest 105 It is also carefull in laying vp store for Winter, both the Hee and Shee. 1888 Sat. Rev. 20 Oct. 467/1 Any one not a poet, whether he or she, might toil, [etc.].
b. A male. (With pl. hes, he's, hees.)
1575 LANEHAM Let. (1871) 53 The hées to sum laughing, but the shées to more sport. 1649 MILTON Eikon. x. Wks. (1851) 415 The dissolute rabble of all his Courtiers..both Hees and Shees, if ther were any Males among them. 1701 ROWE Amb. Step-Moth. IV. i. 1725 The greatest he..Must have confest Woman's superior Wit. 1776 S. J. PRATT Pupil of Pleasure I. 225 Unprotected by some ostensible he or she. 1801 C. K. SHARPE Corr. 12 Jan. I. 102 Good spouses to the shes, and none at all to the hes! 1875 JOWETT Plato (ed. 2) III. 331 Do we divide dogs into hes and shes, and take the masculine gender out to hunt?
V. attrib. (Now generally hyphened to following noun; sometimes written separately like an adjective.)
8. a. Male. (Now confined to the lower animals, as he-goat; in 16-18th c. with nouns denoting persons; this is now contemptuous.) he-she: see quots. 1661, 1754.
a1300 Cursor M. 6067 A clene he lambe, wit-vten sake. 14.. Voc. in Wr.-Wülcker 571/24 Catta, a hecatte. 1509 Test. Ebor. (Surtees) 10 Oon he swan. 1535 COVERDALE Dan. viii. 5 Then came there an hegoate from the west. 1579 FULKE Refut. Rastell 759 Be there hee Angels and she Angels also? 1580 HOLLYBAND Treas. Fr. Tong, Vn Amoureux, a hee louer. Amoureuse, a shee louer. Ibid., Barbier, a hee barber. 1596 [see A]. 1605 Jeronimo in Hazl. Dodsley IV. 357 I'll be the he-one then, and rid thee soon Of this dull, leaden, and tormenting elf. 1620 SHELTON Quix. IV. xxi. 171 Thou and thy Wife, with two of thy He-friends, and two of her She-friends. a1661 FULLER Worthies (1840) I. iv. 15 Pope Joan..this He-she..is generally believed born at Metz. 1665 PEPYS Diary 11 June, My aunt James and he-cosen Harman. 1692 WASHINGTON tr. Milton's Def. Pop. viii. (1851) 193 You now make He-Saints, and She-Saints, at your pleasure, as if you were a true genuine Pope. 1734 FIELDING Univ. Gallant I. Wks. 1882 X. 44 A woman..may speak to one of her husband's he-friends there. 1754 J. SHEBBEARE Matrimony (1766) II. 88 A He-she Thing! a Disgrace to his Sex. 1813 MOORE Post-bag iii. 8 A He-cook, of course!..ne'er keep a She-cook. 1829 MARRYAT F. Mildmay xxii, Great he-fellows of footmen. 1836 Hansard's Parl. Deb. Ser. III. XXXII. 1201 The appropriate language of a noble Lord..who..said, ‘I have not risen to defend these he-pensioners, and she-pensioners, whom I find in this list’. 1855 SINGLETON Virgil I. 46 Safe is thy he-goat.
b. Sometimes with names of plants. he-oak, an Australian tree, Casuarina stricta; also C. suberosa. Cf. SHE-OAK, applied to other species.
1626 BACON Sylva §608 For the difference of Sexes in Plants, they are oftentimes by name distinguished; as Male-Piony, Female-Piony..He-Holly, She-Holly. 1876 Forest & Stream 13 July 375/3 ‘Wattle’ in large variety, he-oak, she-oak, and very many others. 1880 FISON & HOWITT Kamilaroi 252 They chose a tall He-oak, lopped it to a point.
c. Of things. Cf. male and female screw.
1816 Specif. J. Welch's Patent No. 4052 The claws or prongs of the he part received or inserted in the she part.
d. spec. he-man orig. U.S., a particularly strong, virile, or masterful man. Also attrib. So he-male; he-mannish a.
1832 J. K. PAULDING Westward Ho! I. 101 A young fellow who could..tree a rackoon with any he man that ever breathed in all out of doors. 1909 J. R. WARE Passing Eng., He-male, a full shape of male, and resulting from calling female she-male. 1922 C. E. MULFORD Tex xiv. 207 Yo're about th' best he-man I've seen since I looked into a looking-glass. 1924 A. J. SMALL Frozen Gold vii, He's such a great big he-male-masculine man. 1926 Times Lit. Suppl. 25 Feb. 147/4 That was in the late nineties, when the ‘real he-men’..had not attained the softer exterior of the civilization they despised. 1926 S. LEWIS Mantrap v. 48 Woodbury was a zealot at showing how lusty and he-mannish he could be. 1931 W. HOLTBY Poor Caroline vi. 111 ‘And how was our friend Johnson?’ asked Basil. ‘More he-mannish, dirty and businesslike than ever.’ 1931 L. STEFFENS Autobiogr. I. 406 The rulers of his city, who knew what he knew and knew also what a he man was, held him to be the First Citizen of Pittsburgh. 1931 Punch 22 July 60/1 One of their [sc. the Americans'] hundred-per-cent he-men. 1934 N.Z. Alpine Jrnl. V. XXI. 412 Mt Whitcombe is the ‘he-man’ peak of the Ramsay and Lyell Valleys. 1937 D. L. SAYERS Busman's Honeymoon v. 93 Strong, he-man stuff. 1955 W. GADDIS Recognitions I. vi. 204 That wonderful he-man aroma that girls really go for. 1961 Times 2 Mar. 15/5 Why is the American way of life now so infantilist..when it was notoriously he-mannish?
e. He Bible: the first of the two issues of the Bible printed in 1611, so called from its rendering of Ruth iii. 15.
1878 [see She Bible (SHE pers. pron. 13)]. 1888 J. R. DORE Old Bibles (ed. 2) 329 A ‘He’ Bible used as ‘copy’ at one printing office, and a ‘She’ Bible at another. 1911 A. W. POLLARD Records English Bible iii. 72 The first edition of the translation is frequently called the He-Bible and the second the She-Bible.
Hence he v. trans., to speak to or of (a person) as ‘he’.
1741 RICHARDSON Pamela I. 17, I must he and him him now; for he has lost his Dignity with me.
In cases such as that second Webster definition, the subject is implicitly assumed to be male. This is obvious in a sentence which makes it explicit that the subject might be either male or female.
First, I'm sorry if I've come off as combative about this. This is just interesting to me right now, it's not really something I get angry about
Secondly, you've misread that. "2. Of things not sexually distinguished: a. Things grammatically masculine. Obs. b. Things personified as masculine, as mountains, rivers, oak-trees, etc." means things that do not have a literal sex, but a grammatical gender or sexual personification. It is still purely male.
Again, there is no gender-neutral "he", only an implicitly rather than explicitly masculine one. And I don't accept that "they" as a singular is confusing for the majority of English speakers*; again, complete the sentence "Someone left the room, didn't ___?"
*In every situation. Keep in mind that sometimes grammar just is confusing. We only have one pronoun for "you", for example. But I'll bet you cash money that the people who get so uptight about "they" aren't the same people pushing for us to adopt "y'all" as the plural. Call that a hunch.