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US Ad Council: Hey Kids, Saying "Gay" is Gay

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    CervetusCervetus Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    gtrmp wrote: »
    Daemonion wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    Daemonion wrote: »
    Censorship is pretty gay.

    Nobody's suggested censorship.

    They're not making the word illegal, but would you not call this an act of some kind of censorship?

    Saying "don't be a dick" is censorship?

    In the loosest definition of the term "Censorship", yes, but at that loose of a meaning it's almost meaningless.

    Cervetus on
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    FalloutFallout GIRL'S DAY WAS PRETTY GOOD WHILE THEY LASTEDRegistered User regular
    edited October 2008
    A Push To Curb Ugly Phrases.
    NYT wrote:
    FOR the first time since the Advertising Council was founded in 1942, the organization — which directs and coordinates public service campaigns on behalf of Madison Avenue and the media industry — is introducing ads meant to tackle a social issue of concern to gays and lesbians.

    The campaign, which is scheduled to be announced by the council in Washington on Wednesday, will seek to discourage bullying and harassment of teenagers who are gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgender.

    The campaign, created pro bono by the New York office of Arnold Worldwide, urges an end to using derogatory language, particularly labeling anything deemed negative or unpleasant as “so gay.” That is underlined by the theme of the campaign: “When you say, ‘That’s so gay,’ do you realize what you say? Knock it off.”

    There will be television and radio commercials, print and outdoor ads and a special Web site devoted to the campaign (thinkb4youspeak.com). Some spots feature celebrities, the young actress Hilary Duff and the comedian Wanda Sykes, delivering the message.
    Man, I'm glad it's being done. It's lazy speaking, it's derogatory, and kids should knock it off. I'm sick of the lazy justifications for poor behavior.

    Anti-PC Police -- sound your sirens below!!

    gay

    Fallout on
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    DaemonionDaemonion Mountain Man USARegistered User regular
    edited October 2008
    gtrmp wrote: »
    Daemonion wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    Daemonion wrote: »
    Censorship is pretty gay.

    Nobody's suggested censorship.

    They're not making the word illegal, but would you not call this an act of some kind of censorship?

    Saying "don't be a dick" is censorship?

    It might not be censorship, but I feel its pretty dumb to keep calling out words and phrases for being insensitive instead of just promoting the bigger picture - just getting over it and not let stupid little things like name-calling get to you.

    Is there going to be a "don't be a dick" campaign for any offensive niche-word that gets popular? Or any offensive/marginally offense word? Why stop at words?


    Honestly, I can't think of any word or phrase anyone can call me or anything else that would make me upset. And why should any? They're just words. A little well placed indifference never hurt anyone.

    Daemonion on
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    gtrmpgtrmp Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Daemonion wrote: »
    I feel its pretty dumb to keep calling out words and phrases for being insensitive instead of just promoting the bigger picture - just getting over it and not let stupid little things like name-calling get to you.

    Of course; how could I have been so blind?! Clearly, the only way to fight institutionalized homophobia is to do nothing at all. Brilliant solution, thank you.

    gtrmp on
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    DaemonionDaemonion Mountain Man USARegistered User regular
    edited October 2008
    gtrmp wrote: »
    Of course; how could I have been so blind?! Clearly, the only way to fight institutionalized homophobia is to do nothing at all. Brilliant solution, thank you.

    I never said anything about fighting institutionalized homophobia or how to fight it.

    I was talking about the fundamental effectiveness of a campaign spreading a "don't use this word because [blah blah]" message vs. spreading a "don't let any words/phrases get to you" message.

    Besides, eliminating/replacing words only affects how people speak, not how they think.

    Daemonion on
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    GlalGlal AiredaleRegistered User regular
    edited October 2008
    So, "don't be dicks" versus "grow a thicker skin"? Yeah, I wonder why people would take issue with that.

    Glal on
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    BlackjackBlackjack Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    God, people. Look. "Stick and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me" is a great little phrase. Except for a very large number of people, it's not true.

    Blackjack on
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    3DS: 1607-3034-6970
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    imbalancedimbalanced Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Blackjack wrote: »
    God, people. Look. "Stick and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me" is a great little phrase. Except for a very large number of people, it's not true.

    Because they're gay. And retarded. And just a little bit pirate hooker.

    imbalanced on
    idc-sig.png
    Wii Code: 1040-1320-0724-3613 :!!:
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    Tucanwarrior13Tucanwarrior13 Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Glal wrote: »
    So, "don't be dicks" versus "grow a thicker skin"? Yeah, I wonder why people would take issue with that.

    Because the general population is lazy, and wants to always make it someone elses fault? Honeslty why should EVERYONE change the way they speak for one of the minorities in America? I don't see them doing that for Hispanics, Asians, the physically handicapped, mentally handicapped or any other group.

    Tucanwarrior13 on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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    poshnialloposhniallo Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Glal wrote: »
    So, "don't be dicks" versus "grow a thicker skin"? Yeah, I wonder why people would take issue with that.

    Because the general population is lazy, and wants to always make it someone elses fault? Honeslty why should EVERYONE change the way they speak for one of the minorities in America? I don't see them doing that for Hispanics, Asians, the physically handicapped, mentally handicapped or any other group.

    I don't understand.

    Are you being sarcastic or have you lived in a hole for the last 100 years?

    poshniallo on
    I figure I could take a bear.
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    lizard eats flieslizard eats flies Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Wait, so people are actually arguing that trying to get kids to stop saying 'gay' in a derogatory manor is a BAD thing???

    lizard eats flies on
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    MahnmutMahnmut Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Wait, so people are actually arguing that trying to get kids to stop saying 'gay' in a derogatory manor is a BAD thing???

    Toughens gay kids up, builds character.

    I guess.

    Mahnmut on
    Steam/LoL: Jericho89
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    DaemonionDaemonion Mountain Man USARegistered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Wait, so people are actually arguing that trying to get kids to stop saying 'gay' in a derogatory manor is a BAD thing???

    It isn't bad as much as it is pointless, in my opinion. Getting a word out of circulation isn't going to make a real difference.

    The ad creators want people to not speak in a way that may potentially offend another group (honestly, all of my gay friends use that phrase often and love it). That's fine, I guess, but what exactly is it going to solve? Not just this group, but any group?

    You can't solve a problem by telling problem-makers to stop making problems. That's just avoiding it. You have to invest in learning how to actually solve or overcome a problem so that you can carry those skills with you to the next inevitable problem.

    A part of me honestly feels all this awareness can also increase homophobia/racism - you're being reminded that another group is different from you with different beliefs and opinions, and you'd better be damned careful of how you speak around them, or they'll get upset!

    Equality is important, and I'm all for that - but at a point the desire for equality just turns into special treatment. I don't think this qualifies as special treatment, but how far is it going to go?



    Comedian Monique and her view on the "n-word"
    Actress Mo’nique has defended black musicians who use the word [n-word] in their lyrics, insisting it is a term of endearment. The comedienne believes African-Americans have a responsibility to banish the negativity surrounding the word and is keen to reclaim it as an accepted term among the black population.

    She says, “Do I use the word [n-word]? Yes, in my comedy routine and in life because it’s our word. Here’s the thing. We need to stop giving people the power over that word. We take it and turn it around to make it beautiful. You see, they gave us that word back then. They called us [n-word] back then.

    “So yes, I hold on to it. And I say it to the niggers, keep doing your thing with pride and honor. Look how we overcame. Makes sense world, stop being so uptight…..[n-word] please.

    http://www.starmuscle.com/2007/07/27/term-of-endearment/

    You can't remove the negativity from something by just removing that something. You have to learn to overcome it.

    Daemonion on
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    FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD interior crocodile alligator ⇔ ǝɹʇɐǝɥʇ ǝᴉʌoɯ ʇǝloɹʌǝɥɔ ɐ ǝʌᴉɹp ᴉRegistered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Daemonion wrote: »
    Wait, so people are actually arguing that trying to get kids to stop saying 'gay' in a derogatory manor is a BAD thing???

    It isn't bad as much as it is pointless, in my opinion. Getting a word out of circulation isn't going to make a real difference.
    Feral wrote: »
    You know, I really don't care if 12-year-old boys use 'gay' as a derogatory term. I couldn't give a flying fuck. Consequently, at first glance, I was going to initially discount these ads as being a pointless waste of money. I mean, gay kids are getting beaten and occasionally killed... is that really less important than kids calling spawn campers in Halo 'gay'?

    But then I realized what the subtext is to these ads. They're saying that using the word 'gay' is hurtful to gay kids. Obviously that's a bad thing... because you don't want to hurt a gay kid's feelings. So the subtext here isn't "don't use 'gay' as an insult," but "don't insult gay kids."

    They're humanizing gay people. "Hey, think about how gay people feel!" That, by itself, is going to combat homophobia, regardless of the overt message.

    Also, the n-word is verboten here. Probably wanna read the rules.

    Feral on
    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.

    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
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    NailbunnyPDNailbunnyPD Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Daemonion wrote: »
    The ad creators want people to not speak in a way that may potentially offend another group (honestly, all of my gay friends use that phrase often and love it).

    Anecdotal evidence for the win!

    I used to say things were gay until I was called out by a gay relative. I felt like such an asshole that I stopped immediately. That was almost 10 years ago.

    Its amazing how you change behavior when you realize it affects someone you respect.

    Not only that, is it terribly difficult to expand your vocabulary beyond gay? if you were looking to be brief, there are a few one syllable substitutes.

    NailbunnyPD on
    XBL: NailbunnyPD PSN: NailbunnyPD Origin: NailbunnyPD
    NintendoID: Nailbunny 3DS: 3909-8796-4685
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    MahnmutMahnmut Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Daemonion wrote: »
    Comedian Monique and her view on the "n-word"
    Actress Mo’nique has defended black musicians who use the word [n-word] in their lyrics, insisting it is a term of endearment. The comedienne believes African-Americans have a responsibility to banish the negativity surrounding the word and is keen to reclaim it as an accepted term among the black population.

    She says, “Do I use the word [n-word]? Yes, in my comedy routine and in life because it’s our word. Here’s the thing. We need to stop giving people the power over that word. We take it and turn it around to make it beautiful. You see, they gave us that word back then. They called us [n-word] back then.

    “So yes, I hold on to it. And I say it to the niggers, keep doing your thing with pride and honor. Look how we overcame. Makes sense world, stop being so uptight…..[n-word] please.

    http://www.starmuscle.com/2007/07/27/term-of-endearment/

    You can't remove the negativity from something by just removing that something. You have to learn to overcome it.

    Backwards. Gay has been reclaimed. When you use it as a pejorative (rather than an accurate descriptor or a "term of endearment"), you are dragging it back into negativity.

    I'm not even going to touch "special treatment."

    Mahnmut on
    Steam/LoL: Jericho89
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    DaemonionDaemonion Mountain Man USARegistered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Feral wrote: »
    They're humanizing gay people. "Hey, think about how gay people feel!" That, by itself, is going to combat homophobia, regardless of the overt message.

    Also, the n-word is verboten here. Probably wanna read the rules.

    Out of all the words people throw out here, the n-word isn't allowed? Hm. In any case, thanks!


    That's nice and all, but people aren't going to stop making fun of gays. Yes, people need to stop blindly calling-out a group just for the hell of it, but the group can't forget that there will always be haters out there, who feel their hate is genuine and legitimate or otherwise, for whatever their reason.

    I would try not to say anything to offend someone I respect, and I would probably revoke my statement if it did. However, I don't give an automatic + 1 respect to someone in a minority. I treat everyone the same.

    Also, I'm wondering why they're using (to my knowledge) three straight people to tell others that this word hurts gays, as if they're the official representatives. Wouldn't it make sense for it to be the other way, or am I reading into it too much?

    Daemonion on
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    ZombiemamboZombiemambo Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    The problem with saying "gay" is no longer a derogatory term is that it's widespread usage can be attributed to using it in a pejorative manner.

    Zombiemambo on
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    lizard eats flieslizard eats flies Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Look, truth is, it hurts. It hurts to hear it day in and day out, even if you KNOW the people dont mean it to be insulting. In many a year it probably wont be as bad as the meaning 'bad' will be divorced from 'homosexual' but right now it is not. You can keep trying to tell yourself 'oh they arnt associated anymore' but that is just wrong. Coming out is fucking hard. And it is made even harder because everything bad is 'gay'. That shit gets ingrained in you.

    lizard eats flies on
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    Wonder_HippieWonder_Hippie __BANNED USERS regular
    edited October 2008
    It's not so much that the use of the word as derisive is why it's hard being gay, it's that the use of the word is indicative of how our society views homosexuality. It's not just that there's something bad about "gay," it's that homosexuality itself is a joke, something that very few people in America take seriously.

    That said, this is once again symptom treatment, but in many cases I think we have to treat the symptoms before we can treat the disease.

    Wonder_Hippie on
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    MahnmutMahnmut Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Daemonion wrote: »
    Yes, people need to stop blindly calling-out a group just for the hell of it, but the group can't forget that there will always be haters out there, who feel their hate is genuine and legitimate or otherwise, for whatever their reason.

    You're grasping at straws. This is a bad straw.

    You are not doing gay children a service by implicitly telling them that they are unsafe.

    Mahnmut on
    Steam/LoL: Jericho89
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    DaemonionDaemonion Mountain Man USARegistered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Look, truth is, it hurts. It hurts to hear it day in and day out, even if you KNOW the people dont mean it to be insulting. In many a year it probably wont be as bad as the meaning 'bad' will be divorced from 'homosexual' but right now it is not. You can keep trying to tell yourself 'oh they arnt associated anymore' but that is just wrong. Coming out is fucking hard. And it is made even harder because everything bad is 'gay'. That shit gets ingrained in you.

    And I'll never truly be able to understand the situation you went. Not sure if it adds any credibility, but I'm middle-eartern, and sport a pretty gnarly beard and get singled out at airports "randomly" quite often, especially for international travel.


    I guess all I'm saying is the individual can't forget that they're more than just a word/stereotype.

    Your full being cannot be accurately described with one word, be accurately singled out by one word, or be accurately categorized in one word. A word does not define a person or create/replace the true identity of a person.

    Daemonion on
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    lizard eats flieslizard eats flies Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Well its not meant to stop people from being homophobic or hating gays. Its meant to appeal to the people who are actually cool with homosexuality, and don't really realize they are being harmful.

    lizard eats flies on
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    FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD interior crocodile alligator ⇔ ǝɹʇɐǝɥʇ ǝᴉʌoɯ ʇǝloɹʌǝɥɔ ɐ ǝʌᴉɹp ᴉRegistered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Daemonion wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    They're humanizing gay people. "Hey, think about how gay people feel!" That, by itself, is going to combat homophobia, regardless of the overt message.

    Also, the n-word is verboten here. Probably wanna read the rules.

    Out of all the words people throw out here, the n-word isn't allowed? Hm. In any case, thanks!

    Yeah, the rules aren't logical, but neither are search engines, if you catch my drift.
    Daemonion wrote: »
    That's nice and all, but people aren't going to stop making fun of gays.

    Is that an appeal to... what? Futility? "We can't stop it, so might as well do nothing?"

    Feral on
    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.

    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
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    DaemonionDaemonion Mountain Man USARegistered User regular
    edited October 2008
    That said, this is once again symptom treatment, but in many cases I think we have to treat the symptoms before we can treat the disease.

    Yea, I can see that making sense.

    Daemonion on
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    MahnmutMahnmut Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Well its not meant to stop people from being homophobic or hating gays. Its meant to appeal to the people who are actually cool with homosexuality, and don't really realize they are being harmful.

    Or are accidentally lending cover and encouragement to actual bigots. Leftist gamers on PA may have internally divorced pejorative-gay from homosexual-gay, but I get the distinct impression that the general population of X-box Live has not.

    Mahnmut on
    Steam/LoL: Jericho89
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    DaemonionDaemonion Mountain Man USARegistered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Feral wrote: »
    Daemonion wrote: »
    That's nice and all, but people aren't going to stop making fun of gays.

    Is that an appeal to... what? Futility? "We can't stop it, so might as well do nothing?"

    It's appealing to most people's innate desire to place the blame somewhere else.

    There is definitely some blame to be placed on others in this situation, but there needs to be (or continue to be) a push for personal responsibility, too. We can't forget that. Someone was making fun of "sticks and stones" earlier, but the idea really doesn't change.

    Daemonion on
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    NailbunnyPDNailbunnyPD Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Mahnmut wrote: »
    Well its not meant to stop people from being homophobic or hating gays. Its meant to appeal to the people who are actually cool with homosexuality, and don't really realize they are being harmful.

    Or are accidentally lending cover and encouragement to actual bigots. Leftist gamers on PA may have internally divorced pejorative-gay from homosexual-gay, but I get the distinct impression that the general population of X-box Live has not.

    I would interject that even if that internal divorce has occurred, that does not change how it affects other people. I look down on anyone I game with that uses gay as a negative term.

    NailbunnyPD on
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    NintendoID: Nailbunny 3DS: 3909-8796-4685
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    MahnmutMahnmut Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    I think that was implicit in lizard's post, but you're right.

    Again, please, Daemonion, consider LGBT children struggling through internalized homophobia. They will indeed develop thicker skins thanks to your character-building exercise (so considerate); however, I'm not entirely persuaded that scar tissue is a good thing.

    Mahnmut on
    Steam/LoL: Jericho89
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    Orochi_RockmanOrochi_Rockman __BANNED USERS regular
    edited October 2008
    My boyfriend and I moved to the RP-PVP servers in World of Warcraft just to escape that kind of atmosphere that permeated the regular PVP server we were on.

    It was so tiresome to be in a group for an instance, raid, battleground, whatever and every single time something, anything, occured and it wasn't the greatest thing ever it was gay.

    The term is still thrown around, but nowhere near as much.

    Orochi_Rockman on
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    Premier kakosPremier kakos Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited October 2008
    Look, truth is, it hurts. It hurts to hear it day in and day out, even if you KNOW the people dont mean it to be insulting. In many a year it probably wont be as bad as the meaning 'bad' will be divorced from 'homosexual' but right now it is not. You can keep trying to tell yourself 'oh they arnt associated anymore' but that is just wrong. Coming out is fucking hard. And it is made even harder because everything bad is 'gay'. That shit gets ingrained in you.

    Dude, not coming out of the closet is pretty gay. Not being proud of being gay is also gay. Being gay is awesome, not gay.

    Premier kakos on
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    lizard eats flieslizard eats flies Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Look, truth is, it hurts. It hurts to hear it day in and day out, even if you KNOW the people dont mean it to be insulting. In many a year it probably wont be as bad as the meaning 'bad' will be divorced from 'homosexual' but right now it is not. You can keep trying to tell yourself 'oh they arnt associated anymore' but that is just wrong. Coming out is fucking hard. And it is made even harder because everything bad is 'gay'. That shit gets ingrained in you.

    Dude, not coming out of the closet is pretty gay. Not being proud of being gay is also gay. Being gay is awesome, not gay.

    see this... this makes me like you less

    lizard eats flies on
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    DaemonionDaemonion Mountain Man USARegistered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Mahnmut wrote: »
    Again, please, Daemonion, consider LGBT children struggling through internalized homophobia. They will indeed develop thicker skins thanks to your character-building exercise (so considerate); however, I'm not entirely persuaded that scar tissue is a good thing.

    It's less about thicker skin and more about self-respect, no matter what group you might fall into (which is always inaccurate when considering the whole person). "Internalized homophobia" is exactly what it sounds like - internal.

    If people had more self-respect do you think a single word would bother anyone? I'm inclined to say NO. I mentioned indifference earlier - an empathetic indifference. Not a total-lack-of-self-respect-indifference, but such-a-strong-sense-of-self-respect-indifference that these things won't get to you.

    External homophobia plays a role, of course, but it isn't the only role. Equality (the only role played by the external community, in my opinion) needs to met.

    I still think a self-respect centered promotional campaign would be better at treating this whole "disease" of people believing so vehemently in labels then a "stop saying pejorative-gay" campaign. However, as WH said, maybe we do have to treat the symptoms first.

    That said, this is once again symptom treatment, but in many cases I think we have to treat the symptoms before we can treat the disease.

    Daemonion on
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    MahnmutMahnmut Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Daemonion wrote: »
    Mahnmut wrote: »
    Again, please, Daemonion, consider LGBT children struggling through internalized homophobia. They will indeed develop thicker skins thanks to your character-building exercise (so considerate); however, I'm not entirely persuaded that scar tissue is a good thing.

    It's less about thicker skin and more about self-respect, no matter what group you might fall into (which is always inaccurate when considering the whole person). "Internalized homophobia" is exactly what it sounds like - internal.

    If people had more self-respect do you think a single word would bother anyone? I'm inclined to say NO. I mentioned indifference earlier - an empathetic indifference. Not a total-lack-of-self-respect-indifference, but such-a-strong-sense-of-self-respect-indifference that these things won't get to you.

    Look dude. It's harder to build self-respect when the cultural subtext tells you not to have any. You're right that gay kids should be totally enlightened and stuff, but your methodology is all backwards.

    Mahnmut on
    Steam/LoL: Jericho89
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    Premier kakosPremier kakos Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited October 2008
    Look, truth is, it hurts. It hurts to hear it day in and day out, even if you KNOW the people dont mean it to be insulting. In many a year it probably wont be as bad as the meaning 'bad' will be divorced from 'homosexual' but right now it is not. You can keep trying to tell yourself 'oh they arnt associated anymore' but that is just wrong. Coming out is fucking hard. And it is made even harder because everything bad is 'gay'. That shit gets ingrained in you.

    Dude, not coming out of the closet is pretty gay. Not being proud of being gay is also gay. Being gay is awesome, not gay.

    see this... this makes me like you less

    Well, I'm not out to get you to like me. However, the above statement is sincere. I don't use the term "gay" to mean stupid much, but on the off chance that I do use it, it genuinely does not have any connection with "gay" as a synonym for homosexual.

    Words often have multiple meanings that are disconnected from each other and "gay" has evolved into one of those words. I'm sorry that it hurts you, but it shouldn't. The only time it should hurt you is when someone says it and you know they are still connecting the two. Words, by themselves, are harmless and only their context is important. There's nothing wrong with the word itself and it only becomes insulting because you let it be by mixing an otherwise innocuous context surrounding the word with an assumed context of hate and bigotry.

    I don't know if you have come out of the closet yet or not. If you have, that's fucking awesome and congratulations. If not, I hope you do so soon because it really is something you should do. But regardless of whether you are openly proud of your sexuality, at the very least be proud internally and don't let perceived slights get to you.

    Premier kakos on
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    squeefishsqueefish Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Saying "it's okay because I don't mean it that way!" is like calling something bad "so black" or "so jewish" and getting all mad when someone black or jewish finds it offensive...'cause why can't they understand that you don't care if those terms in that context obviously sprung out of bigotry, YOU just say them and mean "stupid"!

    Do you see why this is a bad argument, Premier kakos?

    squeefish on
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    ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited October 2008
    Can I still say that fucking other dudes in the ass is pretty gay?

    ElJeffe on
    I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
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    lizard eats flieslizard eats flies Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    Can I still say that fucking other dudes in the ass is pretty gay?

    I'm pretty sure there is a mathematical identity that allows this.

    lizard eats flies on
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