More looking into for the US its pretty much across the board when it comes to red lights a red arrow has more to do with the direction traffic is going in that lane then an additional set of rules. Rules that state you have to stay stopped when a dealing with a red arrow are referring to left hand turns.
There only two times you can't turn right on red.
1.) A clearly marked sign that says "No Turn on Red"
2.) You are turning onto a one way street where traffic is going the other direction.
The confusing part comes in with states who say stay stopped at a red arrow. Those states want you to stay stopped on left hand turns onto a one way street where traffic is going in the desired direction along wit normal left hand turns where we clearly have to stay put.
1.) A clearly marked sign that says "No Turn on Red"
2.) You are turning onto a one way street where traffic is going the other direction.
This is not completely true, because there are some places (or at least one anyway, NYC) where it's illegal to turn right on red unless there is a sign specifically allowing it. It's not common, but it doesn't fit into one of those two cases.
Common traffic and pedestrian signals from the U.S. Department of Transportation, click the purple tab. Local traffic codes can allow a different interpretation from USDOT, but yeah, what Thanatos said.
I find red arrows confusing, cause they seem to indicate you stop and then can proceed to turn with caution. A circular red signal with a "no turn on red" sign would be more intuitive to me.
Here you go - Google Street View of a right-turn arrow. It was always my understanding as well that if it's red, you have to stop, but then you can go again unless there's a sign prohibiting it.
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(c) Vehicle operators facing a steady red arrow indication may not enter the intersection control area to make the movement indicated by such arrow, and unless entering the intersection control area to make such other movement as is permitted by other indications shown at the same time, shall stop at a clearly marked stop line, but if none, before entering a crosswalk on the near side of the intersection control area, or if none, then before entering the intersection control area and shall remain standing until an indication to make the movement indicated by such arrow is shown. However, the vehicle operators facing a steady red arrow indication may, after stopping proceed to make a right turn from a one-way or two-way street into a two-way street or into a one-way street carrying traffic in the direction of the right turn; or a left turn from a one-way street or two-way street into a one-way street carrying traffic in the direction of the left turn; unless a sign posted by competent authority prohibits such movement. Vehicle operators planning to make such turns shall remain stopped to allow other vehicles lawfully within or approaching the intersection control area to complete their movements. Vehicle operators planning to make such turns shall also remain stopped for pedestrians who are lawfully within the intersection control area as required by RCW 46.61.235(1).
And apparently, you're also allowed to make a left turn on red, not only from a one-way street to another one-way street, but also from a two-way street to a one-way street (yielding to oncoming traffic of course).
I'll tell you, I don't turn right on a red arrow light because, well, I don't actually know the law, but why the hell would you make an arrow rather than a normal light otherwise?
However, you are gonna get hella honked at for refusing to turn right on those things.
Here you go - Google Street View of a right-turn arrow. It was always my understanding as well that if it's red, you have to stop, but then you can go again unless there's a sign prohibiting it.
Check out the road that leads up to the light, the right lane separates right before the intersection, so the red light arrow basically means "don't treat this intersection like a normal highway style merge, make sure you come to a complete stop before going." So it would make sense to stop, look, and then go, even if the light is red. If it's legal. Which we still don't know. Fuck, I hate ambiguous traffic laws.
I've been in NC for 4 years now and have seen many people just roll on through red arrows. However, my belief that this is illegal is supported by this anecdotal evidence...I've seen many cops, firetrucks and ambulances waiting at a red arrow for it to turn green. Also I have seen people that would normally turn, wait, because a police car was in the area.
I've been in NC for 4 years now and have seen many people just roll on through red arrows. However, my belief that this is illegal is supported by this anecdotal evidence...I've seen many cops, firetrucks and ambulances waiting at a red arrow for it to turn green. Also I have seen people that would normally turn, wait, because a police car was in the area.
New York due to trafic issues with NYC seem to have the most differentiating laws of any of the states basically unless the light is green I wouldn't do anything. Heck the way people drive their I would leave it up to my crazy cabbie. Outside the the general rule of thumbs is as long at your state allows for right hand turns your fine. Almost every reference about a red arrow is referencing left hand turns.
Man, so I had forgotten about this thread and I really hadnt expected it to grow this much.
Anyway.
1) I asked because Ive had people honk at me for waiting at one and Ive seen some people stop at them and some stop and then go. And also there have been several times when there has just been noone coming and I could make a perfectly safe turn if it was legal.
2) The lights Im talking about are a standard traffic light only instead of a solid circle of red for the red light, it is just a red arrow pointing to the right which then changes into a green arrow when its time to go.
3) The specific intersection I encounter this is at Concord Mills mall and the exit I use has these lights. Its not an obstructed intersection either, I can see for a good bit in either direction. I drew up a crude picture of it for you.
Ok, the black arrows are the flow of traffic, the red arrows are the redlights at that part. Its a divided highway with the entrance / exit at the bottom being an entrance to the mall.
So, after 2 pages it seems that the answer is "man, balls if we know, but you should probly stop anyway"
I'll tell you, I don't turn right on a red arrow light because, well, I don't actually know the law, but why the hell would you make an arrow rather than a normal light otherwise?
To allow through (straight) traffic to go, while forcing right-turning traffic to stop and yield. The situations in which this is useful are limited, but a couple were mentioned earlier (when I asked the same)...heavy pedestrian crosswalks, parallel roads, etc.
Looking at this specific intersection, I'd say the reason for the right-turn arrows (rather than regular reds) is simply because there is no through traffic, so somebody thought it looked better to have left and right arrows rather than left arrows and circles. Yes, seriously. Based on the thread, it seems like it's legal to go, and it looks like it would be perfectly safe to as well. After stopping, of course.
One thing I'd suggest is simply calling the police (on their non-emergency line, in the phone book or found online) and asking somebody. That or call your DMV. If you're looking for a more definitive answer that you're getting here, that is.
So, after 2 pages it seems that the answer is "man, balls if we know, but you should probly stop anyway"
The North Carolina Driver's Handbook says one thing, some state cop who a newspaper columnist asked said another.
Really, if I were you, I'd probably shoot an e-mail to the DMV, the state cops, and the traffic division of your local courthouse, and ask for clarification from them. I'd also request that they cite the law in question, to completely put it to bed.
Yeah, I suppose email might make more sense. But yes, getting an answer from your local police agency is probably your best bet (since they'll be the ones pulling you over) and getting a cite of the relevant law is a fantastic idea.
Your local paper might have a traffic guy (like "Dr. Gridlock" in the Washington Post) who will do all the legwork for you and then publish your question in the paper to boot, so that all the other confused people out there get educated a little.
(2) Vehicular traffic facing a steady red arrow signal:
(i) May not enter the intersection to make the movement indicated by the arrow;
(ii) Unless entering the intersection to make a movement permitted by another signal, shall stop at the near side of the intersection:
1. At a clearly marked stop line;
2. If there is no clearly marked stop line, before entering any crosswalk; or
3. If there is no crosswalk, before entering the intersection; and
(iii) Except as provided in subsections (i), (j), and (k) of this section, shall remain stopped until a signal permitting the movement is shown.
(i) Unless a sign prohibiting a turn is in place, vehicular traffic facing a steady red signal, after stopping as required by subsection (h) of this section, cautiously may enter the intersection and make:
(1) A right turn; or
(2) A left turn from a one-way street onto a one-way street.
(j) If a sign permitting any other turn is in place, vehicular traffic facing a steady red signal, after stopping as required by subsection (h) of this section, cautiously may enter the intersection and make the turn indicated by the sign.
(k) In each instance, vehicular traffic described in subsections (i) and (j) of this section shall yield the right-of-way to any pedestrian lawfully within an adjacent crosswalk and to any vehicle in the intersection or approaching on another roadway so closely as to constitute an immediate hazard.
So basically what I get from this is, no. Which is kinda stupid in my opinion. The only one I know of around here, is only an arrow because it's a T intersection. You can't go straight anyway, so the light's the shape of an arrow in case you couldn't see the giant wall on the other side of the road. It's perfectly safe to make that right turn, I've done it plenty of times before. But now that I've read that, i'm not gonna do it.
Is it just me, or does the law you posted say that you CAN make a turn on a red arrow?
Here's what I'm reading:
(2) Vehicular traffic facing a steady red arrow signal:
(i) May not enter the intersection to make the movement indicated by the arrow;
(ii) Unless entering the intersection to make a movement permitted by another signal, shall stop at the near side of the intersection:
...
(iii) Except as provided in subsections (i), (j), and (k) of this section, shall remain stopped until a signal permitting the movement is shown.
...
(i) Unless a sign prohibiting a turn is in place, vehicular traffic facing a steady red signal, after stopping as required by subsection (h) of this section, cautiously may enter the intersection and make:
(1) A right turn; or
Basically, subsection (i) seems to be the exception that allows you to turn right on a red arrow. (and it's annoying how they use "i" to mean both 1 and the letter i)
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You could be on to something, NP... Though it doesn't specify whether the "steady red signal" is circular or if it's an arrow. Why can't they just make it clear?
Is it just me, or does the law you posted say that you CAN make a turn on a red arrow?
Here's what I'm reading:
(2) Vehicular traffic facing a steady red arrow signal: (i) May not enter the intersection to make the movement indicated by the arrow;
I think that's the applicable bit. Of course, it's hard to tell since that excerpt is referring to bits that aren't there.
This is funny because my wife and I were arguing over this... I was always taught that a red arrow means no turn on red, especially if the intersection was like two lanes turning right, which to me would make sense for traffic reasons.
However, we also have an intersection near where we live that has a "No turn on Red" sign that lights up specifically when you're no longer allowed to turn due to a blind on coming curve... Quite an intruiging intersection...
This is funny because my wife and I were arguing over this... I was always taught that a red arrow means no turn on red, especially if the intersection was like two lanes turning right, which to me would make sense for traffic reasons.
However, we also have an intersection near where we live that has a "No turn on Red" sign that lights up specifically when you're no longer allowed to turn due to a blind on coming curve... Quite an intruiging intersection...
It's stuff like this that makes you wonder. For example, in the state of Wisconsin (and I'm sure other locations), it's illegal to make a u-turn at a lighted (traffic lights) intersection. Many lighted intersections have "no u-turn" signs posted, but many do not. Regardless, you can't make a u-turn at any of them.
Here's the Wisconsin law on the subject of red lights-
3. Vehicular traffic facing a red signal at an intersection may,
after stopping as required under subd. 1., cautiously enter the
intersection to make a right turn into the nearest lawfully available
lane for traffic moving to the right or to turn left from a one−way
highway into the nearest lawfully available lane of a one−way
highway on which vehicular traffic travels to the left. No turn may
be made on a red signal if lanes of moving traffic are crossed or
if a sign at the intersection prohibits a turn.
Notice it does not specify red arrows, (couldn't find any mention) and the last sentence pretty much covers when you can't turn at a red signal. (e.g., if you're crossing lanes of moving traffic, or if there's a sign)
Edit, I think from your diagram, OP, that you could make a right turn after stopping from the far right lane, but not from the leftmost right turn lane. At least, if you're following Wisconsin's laws, but I'd imagine it may be similar. I found links to the state laws from here.
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There only two times you can't turn right on red.
1.) A clearly marked sign that says "No Turn on Red"
2.) You are turning onto a one way street where traffic is going the other direction.
The confusing part comes in with states who say stay stopped at a red arrow. Those states want you to stay stopped on left hand turns onto a one way street where traffic is going in the desired direction along wit normal left hand turns where we clearly have to stay put.
This is not completely true, because there are some places (or at least one anyway, NYC) where it's illegal to turn right on red unless there is a sign specifically allowing it. It's not common, but it doesn't fit into one of those two cases.
The state law states that any city with a population of 1,000,000 or more may enact a law to disallow right turn on red. (http://public.leginfo.state.ny.us/menugetf.cgi?COMMONQUERY=LAWS VAT section, article 24, section 1111, d)
And in NYC they've chosen to enact the law prohibiting it unless otherwise posted (http://www.nyc.gov/html/dot/downloads/pdf/trafrule.pdf section 4-03, a3
I find red arrows confusing, cause they seem to indicate you stop and then can proceed to turn with caution. A circular red signal with a "no turn on red" sign would be more intuitive to me.
I don't believe it - I'm on my THIRD PS3, and my FIRST XBOX360. What the heck?
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=46.61.055
And apparently, you're also allowed to make a left turn on red, not only from a one-way street to another one-way street, but also from a two-way street to a one-way street (yielding to oncoming traffic of course).
I was under the impression that was only on the island of Montreal.
EDIT: Indeed, turn to your heart's content outside Montreal.
However, you are gonna get hella honked at for refusing to turn right on those things.
Check out the road that leads up to the light, the right lane separates right before the intersection, so the red light arrow basically means "don't treat this intersection like a normal highway style merge, make sure you come to a complete stop before going." So it would make sense to stop, look, and then go, even if the light is red. If it's legal. Which we still don't know. Fuck, I hate ambiguous traffic laws.
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New York due to trafic issues with NYC seem to have the most differentiating laws of any of the states basically unless the light is green I wouldn't do anything. Heck the way people drive their I would leave it up to my crazy cabbie. Outside the the general rule of thumbs is as long at your state allows for right hand turns your fine. Almost every reference about a red arrow is referencing left hand turns.
Anyway.
1) I asked because Ive had people honk at me for waiting at one and Ive seen some people stop at them and some stop and then go. And also there have been several times when there has just been noone coming and I could make a perfectly safe turn if it was legal.
2) The lights Im talking about are a standard traffic light only instead of a solid circle of red for the red light, it is just a red arrow pointing to the right which then changes into a green arrow when its time to go.
3) The specific intersection I encounter this is at Concord Mills mall and the exit I use has these lights. Its not an obstructed intersection either, I can see for a good bit in either direction. I drew up a crude picture of it for you.
Ok, the black arrows are the flow of traffic, the red arrows are the redlights at that part. Its a divided highway with the entrance / exit at the bottom being an entrance to the mall.
So, after 2 pages it seems that the answer is "man, balls if we know, but you should probly stop anyway"
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To allow through (straight) traffic to go, while forcing right-turning traffic to stop and yield. The situations in which this is useful are limited, but a couple were mentioned earlier (when I asked the same)...heavy pedestrian crosswalks, parallel roads, etc.
Looking at this specific intersection, I'd say the reason for the right-turn arrows (rather than regular reds) is simply because there is no through traffic, so somebody thought it looked better to have left and right arrows rather than left arrows and circles. Yes, seriously. Based on the thread, it seems like it's legal to go, and it looks like it would be perfectly safe to as well. After stopping, of course.
One thing I'd suggest is simply calling the police (on their non-emergency line, in the phone book or found online) and asking somebody. That or call your DMV. If you're looking for a more definitive answer that you're getting here, that is.
Really, if I were you, I'd probably shoot an e-mail to the DMV, the state cops, and the traffic division of your local courthouse, and ask for clarification from them. I'd also request that they cite the law in question, to completely put it to bed.
So basically what I get from this is, no. Which is kinda stupid in my opinion. The only one I know of around here, is only an arrow because it's a T intersection. You can't go straight anyway, so the light's the shape of an arrow in case you couldn't see the giant wall on the other side of the road. It's perfectly safe to make that right turn, I've done it plenty of times before. But now that I've read that, i'm not gonna do it.
Here's what I'm reading:
(2) Vehicular traffic facing a steady red arrow signal:
(i) May not enter the intersection to make the movement indicated by the arrow;
(ii) Unless entering the intersection to make a movement permitted by another signal, shall stop at the near side of the intersection:
...
(iii) Except as provided in subsections (i), (j), and (k) of this section, shall remain stopped until a signal permitting the movement is shown.
...
(i) Unless a sign prohibiting a turn is in place, vehicular traffic facing a steady red signal, after stopping as required by subsection (h) of this section, cautiously may enter the intersection and make:
(1) A right turn; or
Basically, subsection (i) seems to be the exception that allows you to turn right on a red arrow. (and it's annoying how they use "i" to mean both 1 and the letter i)
Oh I stand corrected! very good, very good indeed.
I think that's the applicable bit. Of course, it's hard to tell since that excerpt is referring to bits that aren't there.
However, we also have an intersection near where we live that has a "No turn on Red" sign that lights up specifically when you're no longer allowed to turn due to a blind on coming curve... Quite an intruiging intersection...
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It's stuff like this that makes you wonder. For example, in the state of Wisconsin (and I'm sure other locations), it's illegal to make a u-turn at a lighted (traffic lights) intersection. Many lighted intersections have "no u-turn" signs posted, but many do not. Regardless, you can't make a u-turn at any of them.
Here's the Wisconsin law on the subject of red lights-
Notice it does not specify red arrows, (couldn't find any mention) and the last sentence pretty much covers when you can't turn at a red signal. (e.g., if you're crossing lanes of moving traffic, or if there's a sign)
Edit, I think from your diagram, OP, that you could make a right turn after stopping from the far right lane, but not from the leftmost right turn lane. At least, if you're following Wisconsin's laws, but I'd imagine it may be similar. I found links to the state laws from here.
I don't believe it - I'm on my THIRD PS3, and my FIRST XBOX360. What the heck?