Yeah, I thought she was super trashy. Especially the part where the evil princess captures the male protagonist and incites him to rape her so that she might have his child. Meanwhile, his wife, the female protagonist, is being gangraped in a closet somewhere by the princess' guards. Classy!
Melanie Rawn writes the least convincing male characters out of every female fantasy author I've ever read, by a long shot. It was pretty bad.
Ann Rice has to be up there though, every last one of them is gay whether she seems to intend it or not. We're not talking just being sensitive and well dressed but full on lusting over the other male characters when they're supposed to be the ultimate ladies man.
Is every Neil Gaiman book about a boring normal person uncovering a mythical/mystical sub-reality that has factions clashing over some bullshit? It's hard for me to justify buying another one of his books when that seems to be the trend with him.
Eh, i'd say only Neverwhere falls into that classification. Shadow and Fat Charlie (in American Gods and Anansi Boys) are hardly boring - besides, pretty much all fantasy has some kind of epic conflict going on. That's what fantasy is good at.
I'd say Neverwhere and American Gods could both fall into that classification; I was assuming he'd read one or both of them and come to that conclusion. I don't agree, but hey, opinions lolz and so on.
But Richard in Neverwhere is so completely boring, that's part of the fun. He's just too much of a nice, British guy to deal with a feudal cutthroat society at all. Another fun thing with Gaiman is the mythology. It's neat if you reckognize where he got his names, themes and ideas. Maybe it's just not for you.
I'd say every Gaiman novel I've read is a guy realizing there's another layer to the world. Fat Charlie is much like Richard, Shadow is definitely not.
Yyour generalization covers just about any fantasy book where the character starts in our Earth too.
Neil Gaiman's Smoke and Mirrors is a fantastic collection of short stories of his. The man has an excellent turn of phrase.
As for other authors...
I can't believe Katherine Kerr only got a single mention in eight pages. While she does stumble a little in the middle, her books are fantastic because they have such depth to the characters and the world she creates feels so much more real than the Eddings stlye 'Everyone in Section A is Bad and called this, and everyone in Section B is good and called that.'
Robin Hobb is fantastic, Farseer, Tawny Man and Soldier Son trilogies are just unbelievable. While I'm not a fan of the Liveship Traders personally, but there are many people who'd disagree with me there.
Stephen Donaldson is a great fantasy author (and also sci-fi, the Gap series is great). The Covenant books are worth it for Saltheart Foamfollower alone.
Ursula Le Guin, Terry Pratchett, Fiest and G.R.R.Martin are all other fantasy authors I quite really enjoy, but they've been talked about enough.
My only real complaint about Martin, other than the at times iffy sex, is the completely retarded dwarf stuff. Dwarfs are quite handicapped. They would not be capable of heroic feats on the field of battle.
Heroic feats? It's been a while since I read it, but
[spoiler:1d9adbc4e9]In the first battle, didn't he manage to just luckily kill a few people while he was on a horse? And in his second battle he got fucked up.[/spoiler:1d9adbc4e9]
My only real complaint about Martin, other than the at times iffy sex, is the completely retarded dwarf stuff. Dwarfs are quite handicapped. They would not be capable of heroic feats on the field of battle.
Heroic feats? It's been a while since I read it, but
[spoiler:e586dd0064]In the first battle, didn't he manage to just luckily kill a few people while he was on a horse? And in his second battle he got fucked up.[/spoiler:e586dd0064]
[spoiler:e586dd0064]He did manage to kill some people in the second battle. I always figured he was able to do it because he was really desperate and the enemy was weary at that point.[/spoiler:e586dd0064]
The Complete Book of Swords/The Lost Swords by Fred Saberhagen (one trilogy, 8 standalone novels later repackaged as two trilogies and the last pair, and an anthology)
You really should read Saberhagen's Empire of the East series before this. The Book of Swords series was actually a sequel series to Empire of the East.
My only real complaint about Martin, other than the at times iffy sex, is the completely retarded dwarf stuff. Dwarfs are quite handicapped. They would not be capable of heroic feats on the field of battle.
Heroic feats? It's been a while since I read it, but
[spoiler:fc29af0258]In the first battle, didn't he manage to just luckily kill a few people while he was on a horse? And in his second battle he got fucked up.[/spoiler:fc29af0258]
[spoiler:fc29af0258]He did manage to kill some people in the second battle. I always figured he was able to do it because he was really desperate and the enemy was weary at that point.[/spoiler:fc29af0258]
[spoiler:fc29af0258]Doesn't he also do some crazy backflip down to Jon Snow in the first book right before the worst-written sentence in the entire series, too?
"And in that moment, Tyrion Lannister walked as tall as a king." or something like that. Ugh.[/spoiler:fc29af0258]
It got mentioned on the first page, but I have to bring it up again: Iron Dragon's Daughter is one of the best books I've read, perhaps the very best. I would describe it more, but it would take a fifty-page essay or so. If you are looking for a fantasy that is original but not self-consciously so, gritty for more than grittiness' sake, and expertly subtle, this is for you. Be warned: this is anything but a light book.
Two not mentioned here yet: House of Storms, by Ian McCleod. Less pretentious and depressing than the prequel, and the characters are a lot more engaging. And Benighted (Barebackin the UK). Not sure if you could count it as fantasy though - it's an alternate modern-day world, but with 98+% of the population as werewolves. A compelling study of a minority at once the victim and the institutional perpetrator of violence, and one of the most emotionally intense books I've read.
Previous recommendations I second: Robin Hobb, Jacqueline Carey, His Dark Materials, Susanna Clarke (either you will love or hate it, and you'll know you'll love it if you don't hate it after the first couple of chapters).
My only real complaint about Martin, other than the at times iffy sex, is the completely retarded dwarf stuff. Dwarfs are quite handicapped. They would not be capable of heroic feats on the field of battle.
Spoken like a man who's never been attacked by a midget.
My only real complaint about Martin, other than the at times iffy sex, is the completely retarded dwarf stuff. Dwarfs are quite handicapped. They would not be capable of heroic feats on the field of battle.
Heroic feats? It's been a while since I read it, but
[spoiler:7eec098f1d]In the first battle, didn't he manage to just luckily kill a few people while he was on a horse? And in his second battle he got fucked up.[/spoiler:7eec098f1d]
[spoiler:7eec098f1d]He did manage to kill some people in the second battle. I always figured he was able to do it because he was really desperate and the enemy was weary at that point.[/spoiler:7eec098f1d]
[spoiler:7eec098f1d]Doesn't he also do some crazy backflip down to Jon Snow in the first book right before the worst-written sentence in the entire series, too?
"And in that moment, Tyrion Lannister walked as tall as a king." or something like that. Ugh.[/spoiler:7eec098f1d]
[spoiler:7eec098f1d]It was about his shadow, goddamnit. And it was a good sentence. it was what got me reading on, and I'm glad I stuck with it. I love Tyrion. So um, go eat poop, meanie. [/spoiler:7eec098f1d]
With all the Ice and Fire talk, I did remember something else - while this series is probably one of the best ever written, seriously be careful about picking up any of George R R Martin's other stuff. Not sure if its just aimed at a totally different audience but 'Tuf Voyaging' is just painful to read. Anyone read 'Wild Cards' who could say a what end of the spectrum it lies, in all the blogs and interview things I've read I kind of get the impression that its this series that is his own personal favourite.
With all the Ice and Fire talk, I did remember something else - while this series is probably one of the best ever written, seriously be careful about picking up any of George R R Martin's other stuff. Not sure if its just aimed at a totally different audience but 'Tuf Voyaging' is just painful to read. Anyone read 'Wild Cards' who could say a what end of the spectrum it lies, in all the blogs and interview things I've read I kind of get the impression that its this series that is his own personal favourite.
I really liked Dying of the Light for the really cool setting. It's definitely Sci-Fi though. Fevre Dream is an okay vampire story.
Yeah, I thought she was super trashy. Especially the part where the evil princess captures the male protagonist and incites him to rape her so that she might have his child. Meanwhile, his wife, the female protagonist, is being gangraped in a closet somewhere by the princess' guards. Classy!
Melanie Rawn writes the least convincing male characters out of every female fantasy author I've ever read, by a long shot. It was pretty bad.
There's hardly any sex in it... After a few hundred pages, Rohan and Sioned do it. Then, a few hundred pages later, Rohan is captured and, here is the important bit, drugged. Ianthe makes him think she is Sioned. When he finds out he is furious and rapes her right there and then.
And, er, that's it. Apart from a sex scene four books on which is tastefully handled despite the urgency of both characters, who had been waiting three books to go at it.
Rawn's characters are awesome. Someone tell me Chay isn't awesome.
You liars.
Rohan on
...and I thought of how all those people died, and what a good death that is. That nobody can blame you for it, because everyone else died along with you, and it is the fault of none, save those who did the killing.
It has nothing to do with sex scenes, you twit, her male characters' inner monologues are merely some kind of bizzaro world bad female writer idea of how a man might think. It comes of as incredibly inauthentic and silly.
Senjutsu on
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DynagripBreak me a million heartsHoustonRegistered User, ClubPAregular
It has nothing to do with sex scenes, you twit, her male characters' inner monologues are merely some kind of bizzaro world bad female writer idea of how a man might think. It comes of as incredibly inauthentic and silly.
Seriously, read Carol Berg, she's leagues beyond Rawn in terms of awful male characters.
The Complete Book of Swords/The Lost Swords by Fred Saberhagen (one trilogy, 8 standalone novels later repackaged as two trilogies and the last pair, and an anthology)
You really should read Saberhagen's Empire of the East series before this. The Book of Swords series was actually a sequel series to Empire of the East.
Really? I was never aware of that. I will have to look into this and amend it promptly
It has nothing to do with sex scenes, you twit, her male characters' inner monologues are merely some kind of bizzaro world bad female writer idea of how a man might think. It comes of as incredibly inauthentic and silly.
Someone said she was "trashy", so I felt I had to respond. And I have no idea what you are on about, I had a completely different experience reading them. When I first read them, I was a teenager and my personality was changing. Undoubtedly the biggest influence on me at this time was the fictional character of Rohan, who is unlike any other character I have read about.
Fair enough, a friend did say to me once that Rohan was "a bit of a ponce". He doesn't have testosterone dripping out his eardrums, true. But to say that her male characters and their inner monologues are awful is... well, really, I have no idea where you are coming from here. Chay was awesome, as was Tilal and Maarken. Pol was a pretty messed up kid and it took him a while to grow up, but he was great, too.
And don't call me a twit, asshat.
Rohan on
...and I thought of how all those people died, and what a good death that is. That nobody can blame you for it, because everyone else died along with you, and it is the fault of none, save those who did the killing.
Nothing's forgotten, nothing is ever forgotten
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DynagripBreak me a million heartsHoustonRegistered User, ClubPAregular
edited November 2006
Senjutsu is right, Rawn is really bad. Not the worse ever, but really really bad.
Senjutsu is right, Rawn is really bad. Not the worse ever, but really really bad.
I have to disagree... have you guys read The Golden Key? It's quite hard to track down, but it's completely awesome and very different to her other books.
But this is all about tastes. In my opinion, Rawn writes really well, she creates very memorable characters and the stories complex yet accessible.
Rohan on
...and I thought of how all those people died, and what a good death that is. That nobody can blame you for it, because everyone else died along with you, and it is the fault of none, save those who did the killing.
You quoted me talking about the unbelievability of her male characters and responded with some twaddle about the frequency of her sex scenes. That was twitish of you. Don't blame me for your own mistakes.
If you want an example of her gawdawful characters, well, I no longer remember the specifics, but I made it about a 100 pages through that thoroughly awful Ambrai thing of hers before I got tired of the main character acting as a thinly disguised mouthpiece for her distaste of pornography. There was nothing nuanced or well written or indeed even believable about the character and his views, he was merely a one-dimensional mouthpiece for the author. Her clumsy attempts to describe his feelings of arousal in such-and-such situations and lack of them in others was beyond ridiculous.
And please, save the angsty teenage navel-gazing about how some second-rate bit of genre fluff deeply shaped your course in life for your college application essay.
You quoted me talking about the unbelievability of her male characters and responded with some twaddle about the frequency of her sex scenes. That was twitish of you. Don't blame me for your own mistakes.
I quoted both of you, and responded to both of you. Where's the mistake?
If you want an example of her gawdawful characters, well, I no longer remember the specifics, but I made it about a 100 pages through that thoroughly awful Ambrai thing of hers before I got tired of the main character acting as a thinly disguised mouthpiece for her distaste of pornography. There was nothing nuanced or well written or indeed even believable about the character and his views, he was merely a one-dimensional mouthpiece for the author. Her clumsy attempts to describe his feelings of arousal in such-and-such situations and lack of them in others was beyond ridiculous.
Ohh, the start of Ruins of Ambrai. Yeah, that was a tad more adult than I'd ever seen her write. It referenced sexual acts a lot more than Dragon Prince/Star. You're supposed to be disgusted, you know. What she wrote was perfectly believeable. And Collan was nowhere near a "one-dimensional mouthpiece for the author". I thought he was very well done. Have you read the second book, The Mageborn Traitor? I have to admit, though, I don't like Exiles as much as I do Dragon Prince/Star.
And please, save the angsty teenage navel-gazing about how some second-rate bit of genre fluff deeply shaped your course in life for your college application essay.
This would insult me if it didn't make me laugh so much. Hey, a character in a book influenced me! Angst angst olol.
Rohan on
...and I thought of how all those people died, and what a good death that is. That nobody can blame you for it, because everyone else died along with you, and it is the fault of none, save those who did the killing.
Even I, back when I was an 11 year old boy, realised the utter shite that was Melanie Rawn. Unfortunatly, it had dragons on the cover so I had to read it. I made it through one trilogy and started the next until one of my older fiends introduced me to the Death Gate Cycle. I never looked back and the DGC became one of my most favourite series. That's gonna start my list:
Good series:
Death Gate Cycle by Tracy Hickman and Margaret Weis. 7 books that contain one of the coolest magic systems, well thought out setting and a whole shit ton of dragons. Much, much better then any of the Dragonlance books.
The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeleiver By Stephen R. Donaldson. Already mentioned and should be mentioned again. This is a work of literature.... after the first book.
Finally I have to recommend an auther probably none of you have heard of: Charles De Lint. He resides in my hometown of Ottawa, Canada and he has written some of the most interesting fantasy I have read. Currently I have plowed through 2 of his collections of short stories over the last 3 weeks.
His setting is the modern city of Newford where magic is still to be found for those who beleive. This is explained through consentual reality: if you beleive it, it's there. The urban/modern mixed with Fantasy actually works out and it's really worth picking up his first set of stories: "Dreams under Foot"
Anyone read the Tears of Artamin trilogy by Sarah Ash?
Lord of Snow and Shadows came frothingly recommended, but didn't really grab me. I'm trying to decide whether to return the second two to the store. Does the series change/pick up/get worse? Any differing opinions on that first book?
It just felt like the characters were too simple, the intrigue was predictable, and even the magic and technology didn't hold my interest.
Who was disgusted? I was largely bored and incredulous that she'd actually managed to sustain a career tricking people into buying tripe like that.
Disgusted at Scraller Pelleris, I mean. The guy at the start of Ruins of Ambrai.
And I couldn't give a shit if you liked them or not, but you could be nice and think to yourself, "Hey, someone likes these books, I shouldn't be such an asshat and verbally destroy this thing they like."
But I guess this is the Internets, and asshats are two a penny. Continue.
Rohan on
...and I thought of how all those people died, and what a good death that is. That nobody can blame you for it, because everyone else died along with you, and it is the fault of none, save those who did the killing.
Posts
Neil Gaiman's Smoke and Mirrors is a fantastic collection of short stories of his. The man has an excellent turn of phrase.
As for other authors...
I can't believe Katherine Kerr only got a single mention in eight pages. While she does stumble a little in the middle, her books are fantastic because they have such depth to the characters and the world she creates feels so much more real than the Eddings stlye 'Everyone in Section A is Bad and called this, and everyone in Section B is good and called that.'
Robin Hobb is fantastic, Farseer, Tawny Man and Soldier Son trilogies are just unbelievable. While I'm not a fan of the Liveship Traders personally, but there are many people who'd disagree with me there.
Stephen Donaldson is a great fantasy author (and also sci-fi, the Gap series is great). The Covenant books are worth it for Saltheart Foamfollower alone.
Ursula Le Guin, Terry Pratchett, Fiest and G.R.R.Martin are all other fantasy authors I quite really enjoy, but they've been talked about enough.
Steam
Heroic feats? It's been a while since I read it, but
[spoiler:1d9adbc4e9]In the first battle, didn't he manage to just luckily kill a few people while he was on a horse? And in his second battle he got fucked up.[/spoiler:1d9adbc4e9]
[spoiler:fc29af0258]Doesn't he also do some crazy backflip down to Jon Snow in the first book right before the worst-written sentence in the entire series, too?
"And in that moment, Tyrion Lannister walked as tall as a king." or something like that. Ugh.[/spoiler:fc29af0258]
Two not mentioned here yet: House of Storms, by Ian McCleod. Less pretentious and depressing than the prequel, and the characters are a lot more engaging. And Benighted (Barebackin the UK). Not sure if you could count it as fantasy though - it's an alternate modern-day world, but with 98+% of the population as werewolves. A compelling study of a minority at once the victim and the institutional perpetrator of violence, and one of the most emotionally intense books I've read.
Previous recommendations I second: Robin Hobb, Jacqueline Carey, His Dark Materials, Susanna Clarke (either you will love or hate it, and you'll know you'll love it if you don't hate it after the first couple of chapters).
Spoken like a man who's never been attacked by a midget.
[spoiler:7eec098f1d]It was about his shadow, goddamnit. And it was a good sentence. it was what got me reading on, and I'm glad I stuck with it. I love Tyrion. So um, go eat poop, meanie. [/spoiler:7eec098f1d]
I really liked Dying of the Light for the really cool setting. It's definitely Sci-Fi though. Fevre Dream is an okay vampire story.
There's hardly any sex in it... After a few hundred pages, Rohan and Sioned do it. Then, a few hundred pages later, Rohan is captured and, here is the important bit, drugged. Ianthe makes him think she is Sioned. When he finds out he is furious and rapes her right there and then.
And, er, that's it. Apart from a sex scene four books on which is tastefully handled despite the urgency of both characters, who had been waiting three books to go at it.
Rawn's characters are awesome. Someone tell me Chay isn't awesome.
You liars.
Nothing's forgotten, nothing is ever forgotten
Really? I was never aware of that. I will have to look into this and amend it promptly
I thought we were done talking about Ann Rice.
Someone said she was "trashy", so I felt I had to respond. And I have no idea what you are on about, I had a completely different experience reading them. When I first read them, I was a teenager and my personality was changing. Undoubtedly the biggest influence on me at this time was the fictional character of Rohan, who is unlike any other character I have read about.
Fair enough, a friend did say to me once that Rohan was "a bit of a ponce". He doesn't have testosterone dripping out his eardrums, true. But to say that her male characters and their inner monologues are awful is... well, really, I have no idea where you are coming from here. Chay was awesome, as was Tilal and Maarken. Pol was a pretty messed up kid and it took him a while to grow up, but he was great, too.
And don't call me a twit, asshat.
Nothing's forgotten, nothing is ever forgotten
I have to disagree... have you guys read The Golden Key? It's quite hard to track down, but it's completely awesome and very different to her other books.
But this is all about tastes. In my opinion, Rawn writes really well, she creates very memorable characters and the stories complex yet accessible.
Nothing's forgotten, nothing is ever forgotten
If you want an example of her gawdawful characters, well, I no longer remember the specifics, but I made it about a 100 pages through that thoroughly awful Ambrai thing of hers before I got tired of the main character acting as a thinly disguised mouthpiece for her distaste of pornography. There was nothing nuanced or well written or indeed even believable about the character and his views, he was merely a one-dimensional mouthpiece for the author. Her clumsy attempts to describe his feelings of arousal in such-and-such situations and lack of them in others was beyond ridiculous.
And please, save the angsty teenage navel-gazing about how some second-rate bit of genre fluff deeply shaped your course in life for your college application essay.
I quoted both of you, and responded to both of you. Where's the mistake?
Ohh, the start of Ruins of Ambrai. Yeah, that was a tad more adult than I'd ever seen her write. It referenced sexual acts a lot more than Dragon Prince/Star. You're supposed to be disgusted, you know. What she wrote was perfectly believeable. And Collan was nowhere near a "one-dimensional mouthpiece for the author". I thought he was very well done. Have you read the second book, The Mageborn Traitor? I have to admit, though, I don't like Exiles as much as I do Dragon Prince/Star.
This would insult me if it didn't make me laugh so much. Hey, a character in a book influenced me! Angst angst olol.
Nothing's forgotten, nothing is ever forgotten
Good series:
Death Gate Cycle by Tracy Hickman and Margaret Weis. 7 books that contain one of the coolest magic systems, well thought out setting and a whole shit ton of dragons. Much, much better then any of the Dragonlance books.
The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeleiver By Stephen R. Donaldson. Already mentioned and should be mentioned again. This is a work of literature.... after the first book.
Finally I have to recommend an auther probably none of you have heard of: Charles De Lint. He resides in my hometown of Ottawa, Canada and he has written some of the most interesting fantasy I have read. Currently I have plowed through 2 of his collections of short stories over the last 3 weeks.
His setting is the modern city of Newford where magic is still to be found for those who beleive. This is explained through consentual reality: if you beleive it, it's there. The urban/modern mixed with Fantasy actually works out and it's really worth picking up his first set of stories: "Dreams under Foot"
Lord of Snow and Shadows came frothingly recommended, but didn't really grab me. I'm trying to decide whether to return the second two to the store. Does the series change/pick up/get worse? Any differing opinions on that first book?
It just felt like the characters were too simple, the intrigue was predictable, and even the magic and technology didn't hold my interest.
Disgusted at Scraller Pelleris, I mean. The guy at the start of Ruins of Ambrai.
And I couldn't give a shit if you liked them or not, but you could be nice and think to yourself, "Hey, someone likes these books, I shouldn't be such an asshat and verbally destroy this thing they like."
But I guess this is the Internets, and asshats are two a penny. Continue.
Nothing's forgotten, nothing is ever forgotten