Also, I don't think Flippy is whining, rather pointing out that despite all appearances his snipering is actually not omnipotent and infallible. Sometimes.
It is, but it doesn't help that the OP map-pack is outdated and the server has downloads disabled.
...
...what? o_O
In regards to the "downloads" thing, I mean. Yeah, I know the map-pack's a bit out of date (it's a bit of a bitch to have to re-upload 400ish megs of compressed maps every time a map updates, hence the blog, where I post download links every time I upload something)... but downloads *should* be working fine, unless the content server was acting up.
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It is, but it doesn't help that the OP map-pack is outdated and the server has downloads disabled.
...
...what? o_O
In regards to the "downloads" thing, I mean. Yeah, I know the map-pack's a bit out of date... but downloads *should* be working fine, unless the content server was acting up.
Map downloads were working fine as of a few hours ago, at least.
As someone who's made a habit of killing at least once every time I log on I actually have to agree with Flippy's assessment. I'm been trying out sniper recently and find the SMG just about entirely useless.
It is, but it doesn't help that the OP map-pack is outdated and the server has downloads disabled.
...
...what? o_O
In regards to the "downloads" thing, I mean. Yeah, I know the map-pack's a bit out of date... but downloads *should* be working fine, unless the content server was acting up.
Map downloads were working fine as of a few hours ago, at least.
Yea they were working for Mordrack and I then they just stopped.
With the new scope on the sniper rifle, theres no real point to using the smg anymore, aside from trying to find a cloaked spy.
Also flippy has a point, there shouldn't be any hard counters in the game, if you fuck up, you should die, even if you're the counter to what your fighting.
That said, flippy you suck with a kukri. Practice more. :P
Flippy, I think its more about balance. You've got your rifle, which is the best long range weapon in the game. You've got your machete, which is tied with all other melee weapons for good close range damage. And you've got your SMG, which is piss weak. Close-middle range is the Sniper's weakness, and Close-middle range is where the Revolver works best from.
So let me get this straight, Flippy is annoyed that the long range class is losing to the Spy in close range combat?
Are you aware of the old robot saying: DOES NOT COMPUTE?
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Yeah I'm not asking for something that is going to be doing rocket-level damage. I'm saying that the spy shouldn't be able to waltz up to a sniper, fuck everything up, get discovered, and then still have a very very favourable chance at killing him.
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See, here's a big problem with your rant. If a spy is able to get close to a lonely sniper, then he didn't fuck everything up, especially if he is fully uncloaked by the time you discover him. He had to trek across the battlelines to get to you.
And why do you have to rely on the SMG in a spy fight anyways? Say "That's not a knife. This is a knife!" and bust him up with the machete.
Because the spy is smart and backpedals away from your melee and shoots your face off with his classy pistol.
I somewhat agree with flippy, but the powers of a good sniper to completely mess the other team up, not only physically and psychologically makes me satisfied enough not to complain.
Because the spy is smart and backpedals away from your melee and shoots your face off with his classy pistol.
I somewhat agree with flippy, but the powers of a good sniper to completely mess the other team up, not only physically and psychologically makes me satisfied enough not to complain.
Well, if he is at a sweet spot with the revolver and the sniper can't duck behind cover then really, why should the sniper be complaining that he is up shit creek? The spy still got the drop on him, even if it didn't end with a knife in the back.
Because the spy is smart and backpedals away from your melee and shoots your face off with his classy pistol.
I somewhat agree with flippy, but the powers of a good sniper to completely mess the other team up, not only physically and psychologically makes me satisfied enough not to complain.
I believe you have pinpointed the problem.
Valve should remove the spy's ability to move backwards.
I'm going to try (lol) and go to bed now, but I really think people should reasses their judgement of the sniper in the stats page. This is bearing in mind that the most played map is by far 2fort (by over 1200 hours), which happens to be one of the hardest sniper nests to reach anyway.
Also, Flippy, if you're complaining about not having a decent close-mid range weapon, I think thats a little ridiculous. Thats the only distance a Sniper can't hold his own, yes. But we've been trying to tell you: other classes have no great counter for long range. I don't know how often you've used the Revolver, but because of the spread, the weapon gets much much worse the farther you are, simply because you have a greatly decreased chance to hit. You've probably been victom to lucky hits a few times is all.
Fighting good spies revolver vs blutsauger, its a pretty even fight because of nothing more than luck. Three hits will kill me, two won't. Go use the revolver more, 50% accuracy (3 out of 6 bullets) is pretty hard to get.
He had to trek across the battlelines to get to you.
I have a problem with people acting like this is the Odyssey. It is not particularly difficult.
Mandalore, keeping with my previous post, I just want to show you something:
Flippy, I think its more about balance. You've got your flamethrower, which is the best short range weapon in the game. You've got your fire axe, which is tied with all other melee weapons for good close range damage. And you've got your shotgun/flare, which is waaaait a minute.... Long-middle range is the Pyro's weakness, and Long-middle range is where the Rifle works best from.
One of these things is not like the other. Do you see what I'm getting at?
other classes have no great counter for long range
Actually, that's not so true any more, really, is it?
Flare: disables
Bonk: disables, effectively
Baseball: disables, roots
Heavy cone: disables (with a bit of luck)
Level 3 teleporters: more enemies getting to you faster - shorter lifespan
Spies: improved cloak, very good % chance of reaching you now
Other classes have the same old rocket jumps and such. I think the argument that sniper has a range that is unmatched by other classes is valid, but I don't find it wholly persuasive due to the culmination of incremental changes in the game. I think I could yet be persuaded - but if you're not even going to make an effort to understand the argument then there's no point you posting wildly misleading things like that.
But the pyro comparison still bugs me.
Yes, the flaregun is very similar to the instakill rifle.
The flaregun is being compared the smg, not the rifle. And is being used to highlight the fact that underlying class archetypes have been undermined before but nobody seemed to mind, whereas suggesting it for the sniper is apparently anathema.
Come on man, I don't mind discussing this because I am intellectually itchy - something doesn't quite add up, but I can't clarify what or what effect it would have on the conclusion. So I'd like to find that out and other people might be able to address it with more insight than I.
Yes, the flaregun is very similar to the instakill rifle.
The flaregun is being compared the smg, not the rifle. And is being used to highlight the fact that underlying class archetypes have been undermined before but nobody seemed to mind, whereas suggesting it for the sniper is apparently anathema.
Come on man, I don't mind discussing this because I am intellectually itchy - something doesn't quite add up, but I can't clarify what or what effect it would have on the conclusion. So I'd like to find that out and other people might be able to address it with more insight than I.
So why don't you stop complaining and wait for the sniper unlocks?
Frankly I think it is due to people mythologizing the battlefield. Everyone seems to view the battlefield in zero-sum ways that conclude or encourage the conclusion that crossing it is some great acheivement. 'Behind enemy lines' and such. But getting to the opposite fringes of the fight is not that difficult... most classes have abilities or locate gaps within which those abilities can be excercised in order to get there. I think it carries false weight, and therefore close combat is ignored as 'honourable', of sorts, and classified as difficult, whereas sniping is seen as dishonourable and easy.
edit: seriously tofu stop shitting up what has been a perfectly reasonable, unpolemic discourse. Nobody is calling anyone names and the idea is being addressed, or at least people are attempting to address it - including me - so there's absolutely no reason for you to butt in like that. If you don't want to talk about this subject then fine, don't, but why ruin it for other people?
edit 2: And Jesus, who is complaining? I've been asking questions in pretty formal logical style. I'm after answers, not validation for some bias.
I think you should honestly play spy some. You'll see how it balances out. You know the sniper's view point and you know it well. Step into the Spy's shoes for a bit and see how they play the game. I think you'll understand better where we're coming from.
Frankly I think it is due to people mythologizing the battlefield. Everyone seems to view the battlefield in zero-sum ways that conclude or encourage the conclusion that crossing it is some great acheivement. 'Behind enemy lines' and such. But getting to the opposite fringes of the fight is not that difficult... most classes have abilities or locate gaps within which those abilities can be excercised in order to get there. I think it carries false weight, and therefore close combat is ignored as 'honourable', of sorts, and classified as difficult, whereas sniping is seen as dishonourable and easy.
You are trying to intellectualize something that isn't intellectual.
I think you should honestly play spy some. You'll see how it balances out. You know the sniper's view point and you know it well. Step into the Spy's shoes for a bit and see how they play the game. I think you'll understand better where we're coming from.
This is a good point. I can't play spy for dick. I can be right next to a engy build, clicking the sapper and it never goes. Same with a backstab, they almost never go for me.
And thats if I even get close. Seems like as soon as I decide to try the spy the other team's pyros get proficient as syp-checking.
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I think you should honestly play spy some. You'll see how it balances out. You know the sniper's view point and you know it well. Step into the Spy's shoes for a bit and see how they play the game. I think you'll understand better where we're coming from.
Most annoyingly "Wtf does this guy have surround sou- welp I'm dead".
Frankly I think it is due to people mythologizing the battlefield. Everyone seems to view the battlefield in zero-sum ways that conclude or encourage the conclusion that crossing it is some great acheivement. 'Behind enemy lines' and such. But getting to the opposite fringes of the fight is not that difficult... most classes have abilities or locate gaps within which those abilities can be excercised in order to get there. I think it carries false weight, and therefore close combat is ignored as 'honourable', of sorts, and classified as difficult, whereas sniping is seen as dishonourable and easy.
edit: seriously tofu stop shitting up what has been a perfectly reasonable, unpolemic discourse. Nobody is calling anyone names and the idea is being addressed, or at least people are attempting to address it - including me - so there's absolutely no reason for you to butt in like that. If you don't want to talk about this subject then fine, don't, but why ruin it for other people?
edit 2: And Jesus, who is complaining? I've been asking questions in pretty formal logical style. I'm after answers, not validation for some bias.
Ruin it for other people? Sorry, I didn't realize people were having so much fun listening to you complain about Duld killing you. I guess I'll go have fun playing the game while you write 5 paragraph essays about how the sniper isn't powerful enough.
Guys, regarding the issues with the servers...Valve screwed something up and this is happening. It seems to fix itself after a map change. If you notice a lot of join messages but no people joining, work with other people on the server to get to the next map. Only fix I can recommend until Valve gets back in touch.
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Every time you write parallel fifths, Bach kills a kitten.
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Frankly I think it is due to people mythologizing the battlefield. Everyone seems to view the battlefield in zero-sum ways that conclude or encourage the conclusion that crossing it is some great acheivement. 'Behind enemy lines' and such. But getting to the opposite fringes of the fight is not that difficult... most classes have abilities or locate gaps within which those abilities can be excercised in order to get there. I think it carries false weight, and therefore close combat is ignored as 'honourable', of sorts, and classified as difficult, whereas sniping is seen as dishonourable and easy.
edit: seriously tofu stop shitting up what has been a perfectly reasonable, unpolemic discourse. Nobody is calling anyone names and the idea is being addressed, or at least people are attempting to address it - including me - so there's absolutely no reason for you to butt in like that. If you don't want to talk about this subject then fine, don't, but why ruin it for other people?
edit 2: And Jesus, who is complaining? I've been asking questions in pretty formal logical style. I'm after answers, not validation for some bias.
Man what? This may be true for CP and CTF maps but on PL and choke point maps like Dustbowl it's hard as hell to get past the battle lines and be effective in any way. Even if you do get past the major fighting, there's bound to be sentries and or people walking up to the front lines to catch you as well. The only real place that spies can get a jump on you if they aren't suicidal (Icy, god damn) is during the walk from the spawn to the forward base. Generally snipers will not be standing alone in the middle of nowhere, and will instead be close enough to the front line that any attack on them will be noticed by the rest of their team, but far enough away that most classes will have trouble reaching them.
Spies are just something I had to make myself get over to play this game. You can't do much about them, and typically by the time you notice once they will kill you before you can kill them, as somehow their gun is more powerful.
Spies are just something I had to make myself get over to play this game. You can't do much about them, and typically by the time you notice once they will kill you before you can kill them, as somehow their gun is more powerful.
Just always check behind you every two seconds or so and shoot suspicious people on sight. Once you play enough it usually becomes pretty easy to determine who is a spy or not.
Ruin it for other people? Sorry, I didn't realize people were having so much fun listening to you complain about Duld killing you. I guess I'll go have fun playing the game while you write 5 paragraph essays about how the sniper isn't powerful enough.
Okay, look, will you just fuck off. I'm actually talking to Mandalore in a pm about this right now. People are actually responding and you're here loudly sounding off about how stupid I must be.
And if you fucking read what I linked right at the start of the topic you'd have seen.. this!:
In short, I would like to see:
1) The class made more accessible
2) No significant increase in overall 'kill power'
3) More means of escape and foresight, but at the cost of offensive ability
So why don't you go troll someone else. You are either completely out of your depth or you don't care enough to learn what you're talking about, in which case your opinion is uninformed and stupid. All you're doing is destroying conversation.
I think you should honestly play spy some. You'll see how it balances out. You know the sniper's view point and you know it well. Step into the Spy's shoes for a bit and see how they play the game. I think you'll understand better where we're coming from.
You know I totally agree. The reason I haven't played much spy is because of ping-to-melee issues and hearing people saying how ping fluffs backstabs. I'll take another look at it soon.
I would ask though, why nobody affords this sort of 'walk a mile in their shoes' attitude to the sniper?
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Also, I don't think Flippy is whining, rather pointing out that despite all appearances his snipering is actually not omnipotent and infallible. Sometimes.
PSN:RevDrGalactus/NN:RevDrGalactus/Steam
PSN:RevDrGalactus/NN:RevDrGalactus/Steam
...
...what? o_O
In regards to the "downloads" thing, I mean. Yeah, I know the map-pack's a bit out of date (it's a bit of a bitch to have to re-upload 400ish megs of compressed maps every time a map updates, hence the blog, where I post download links every time I upload something)... but downloads *should* be working fine, unless the content server was acting up.
COME FORTH, AMATERASU! - Switch Friend Code SW-5465-2458-5696 - Twitch
Map downloads were working fine as of a few hours ago, at least.
Yea they were working for Mordrack and I then they just stopped.
Also flippy has a point, there shouldn't be any hard counters in the game, if you fuck up, you should die, even if you're the counter to what your fighting.
That said, flippy you suck with a kukri. Practice more. :P
See, here's a big problem with your rant. If a spy is able to get close to a lonely sniper, then he didn't fuck everything up, especially if he is fully uncloaked by the time you discover him. He had to trek across the battlelines to get to you.
And why do you have to rely on the SMG in a spy fight anyways? Say "That's not a knife. This is a knife!" and bust him up with the machete.
I somewhat agree with flippy, but the powers of a good sniper to completely mess the other team up, not only physically and psychologically makes me satisfied enough not to complain.
Switch: 6200-8149-0919 / Wii U: maximumzero / 3DS: 0860-3352-3335 / eBay Shop
Well, if he is at a sweet spot with the revolver and the sniper can't duck behind cover then really, why should the sniper be complaining that he is up shit creek? The spy still got the drop on him, even if it didn't end with a knife in the back.
I believe you have pinpointed the problem.
Valve should remove the spy's ability to move backwards.
http://www.steampowered.com/status/tf2/tf2_stats.php
Particularly interesting are:
http://www.steampowered.com/status/tf2/public_graphs/avgdamagehit.png
http://www.steampowered.com/status/tf2/public_graphs/damagedealtofalldamage.png
http://www.steampowered.com/status/tf2/public_graphs/avgassistshour.png
http://www.steampowered.com/status/tf2/public_graphs/avgkillshour.png
But I realise, there's only one chart that actually matters, because all the empirical data in the world isn't going to change it:
Fighting good spies revolver vs blutsauger, its a pretty even fight because of nothing more than luck. Three hits will kill me, two won't. Go use the revolver more, 50% accuracy (3 out of 6 bullets) is pretty hard to get.
I have a problem with people acting like this is the Odyssey. It is not particularly difficult.
Mandalore, keeping with my previous post, I just want to show you something: One of these things is not like the other. Do you see what I'm getting at?
screw SirToons and his flaregun
Switch: 6200-8149-0919 / Wii U: maximumzero / 3DS: 0860-3352-3335 / eBay Shop
Flare: disables
Bonk: disables, effectively
Baseball: disables, roots
Heavy cone: disables (with a bit of luck)
Level 3 teleporters: more enemies getting to you faster - shorter lifespan
Spies: improved cloak, very good % chance of reaching you now
Other classes have the same old rocket jumps and such. I think the argument that sniper has a range that is unmatched by other classes is valid, but I don't find it wholly persuasive due to the culmination of incremental changes in the game. I think I could yet be persuaded - but if you're not even going to make an effort to understand the argument then there's no point you posting wildly misleading things like that.
But the pyro comparison still bugs me.
The flaregun is being compared the smg, not the rifle. And is being used to highlight the fact that underlying class archetypes have been undermined before but nobody seemed to mind, whereas suggesting it for the sniper is apparently anathema.
Come on man, I don't mind discussing this because I am intellectually itchy - something doesn't quite add up, but I can't clarify what or what effect it would have on the conclusion. So I'd like to find that out and other people might be able to address it with more insight than I.
So why don't you stop complaining and wait for the sniper unlocks?
edit: seriously tofu stop shitting up what has been a perfectly reasonable, unpolemic discourse. Nobody is calling anyone names and the idea is being addressed, or at least people are attempting to address it - including me - so there's absolutely no reason for you to butt in like that. If you don't want to talk about this subject then fine, don't, but why ruin it for other people?
edit 2: And Jesus, who is complaining? I've been asking questions in pretty formal logical style. I'm after answers, not validation for some bias.
You are trying to intellectualize something that isn't intellectual.
Log on to TF2 and play spy for 3 hours.
This is a good point. I can't play spy for dick. I can be right next to a engy build, clicking the sapper and it never goes. Same with a backstab, they almost never go for me.
And thats if I even get close. Seems like as soon as I decide to try the spy the other team's pyros get proficient as syp-checking.
No man should have that kind of power.(Twitter)
Most annoyingly "Wtf does this guy have surround sou- welp I'm dead".
Ruin it for other people? Sorry, I didn't realize people were having so much fun listening to you complain about Duld killing you. I guess I'll go have fun playing the game while you write 5 paragraph essays about how the sniper isn't powerful enough.
GT: Tanky the Tank
Black: 1377 6749 7425
3DS Friend Code: 2707-1614-5576
PAX Prime 2014 Buttoneering!
That said, I've got great respect (and jealousy) for those that can do either well. I just burn/shoot/heal things. :?
Man what? This may be true for CP and CTF maps but on PL and choke point maps like Dustbowl it's hard as hell to get past the battle lines and be effective in any way. Even if you do get past the major fighting, there's bound to be sentries and or people walking up to the front lines to catch you as well. The only real place that spies can get a jump on you if they aren't suicidal (Icy, god damn) is during the walk from the spawn to the forward base. Generally snipers will not be standing alone in the middle of nowhere, and will instead be close enough to the front line that any attack on them will be noticed by the rest of their team, but far enough away that most classes will have trouble reaching them.
That always happens when I'm on a team.
Switch: 6200-8149-0919 / Wii U: maximumzero / 3DS: 0860-3352-3335 / eBay Shop
Just always check behind you every two seconds or so and shoot suspicious people on sight. Once you play enough it usually becomes pretty easy to determine who is a spy or not.
Yes. Thats what I meant.
GT: Tanky the Tank
Black: 1377 6749 7425
Okay, look, will you just fuck off. I'm actually talking to Mandalore in a pm about this right now. People are actually responding and you're here loudly sounding off about how stupid I must be.
And if you fucking read what I linked right at the start of the topic you'd have seen.. this!:
So why don't you go troll someone else. You are either completely out of your depth or you don't care enough to learn what you're talking about, in which case your opinion is uninformed and stupid. All you're doing is destroying conversation.
You know I totally agree. The reason I haven't played much spy is because of ping-to-melee issues and hearing people saying how ping fluffs backstabs. I'll take another look at it soon.
I would ask though, why nobody affords this sort of 'walk a mile in their shoes' attitude to the sniper?