"i deserve all the unlockable characters in super smash brothers brawl by buying the game"
bullshit, wrong.
this "i deserve" mentality in my generation is beyond retarded, and I don't like it.
This pretty much sums up my feelings after Wall of Text(tm).
Granted, there's some situations where unlockables seem like an obstacle in the way of your having fun (see Rock Band), but at the same time, you're laying claim to a whole host of imagined properties that you think come along with the game. As much as it might burn, no one owes you dick after they've got your dollar.
(Oh lord, the innuendo.)
I don't get the "you don't deserve x" angle. Unlockables weren't and aren't intended to be some grand reward for the few and the faithful, but rather to provide an enjoyable challenge for the majority of players.
Does it not stand to reason that any feature of an entertainment product that makes it less fun for the majority is a bad design move? I mean, calling a generation out on an overblown sense of entitlement is all well and good for debate, but this isn't good evidence.
I enjoy unlocking weapons. It makes me happy. I dont see how a Natascha wielding heavy has an advantage over a Sasha heavy. The unlockables are balanced. Force-A-Nature does the same damage as the scattergun. So on and so forth.
I would like it if they put in a native unlocker though. That would solve a lot of problems.
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
I don't like mushrooms. I wish people wouldn't order them on pizzas. But some people do. I don't understand it. Their rational behind liking it doesn't make sense to me because I just plain don't like them period. But that doesn't mean they're wrong it just means that we don't agree. End of story.
Ah, but the story continues! These pro-mushroom people are saying that because the pizza came with mushrooms, you should just deal with it and eat the pizza as-is, instead of picking the mushrooms off. Actually, this is probably the most succinct yet accurate analogy yet.
What's important is that we can all agree the mushrooms are terrible and should never even be mentioned in the same sentence as pizza.
No, I'm not making an analogy about unlockables and mushrooms being awful. I just really hate mushrooms.
I don't get the "you don't deserve x" angle. Unlockables weren't and aren't intended to be some grand reward for the few and the faithful, but rather to provide an enjoyable challenge for the majority of players.
Well, yes, so why negate the challenge and flood the proverbial market with unlocks that would otherwise get distributed over a longer period of time?
Does it not stand to reason that any feature of an entertainment product that makes it less fun for the majority is a bad design move?
I'm guessing this is referring to the periodic rollouts and the big rush of players to classes? I always looked at the updates as a purely practical desicion by Valve to keep interest levels high and bring new players in with good word of mouth. But it doesn't serve their purposes for new content to go out of style within a week.
Design wise, sure, you could make that argument. But you're looking at the short term effects. When people come through the initial wave of classes, and they're still playing and discussing the ups and downs of the bonus content months later, that's the holy grail Valve is trying to tap into.
New players would still flock to the updated class even if there was nothing to unlock. Just look at Diablo 2, ever single new character when the expansion came out was one of the new classes but then 6 months later they were at or below the average.
I like unlockables sometimes. My beef is more with not being able to make a backup of the data once I've done so. Over Christmas vacation, had to waste a fair chunk of time unlocking all the characters for Super Smash Bros. Brawl, and even then, there were a lot of stages and tracks that remained locked. I'd done it all before, but was unable to bring that data with me.
Come to think of it, I dislike unlockable characters most of the time. I don't like the thought of maining Cammy in Street Fighter, but having to waste my time with someone else just to play as her in Street Fighter IV.
Nor in Mario Kart Wii. My wife would like to play as Dry Bones, and I wouldn't mind trying Funky Kong, but we're just not good enough at the game (particularly as it pertains to all the unalterable random crap item usage in the only modes that allow you to unlock characters and such) to do it.
Unlocking the Miis is even more boggling; aren't they supposed to be sort of representative of the more "casual" appeal of the game? And yet, they're some of the hardest ones to unlock.
I really wanted to use ROB in Mario Kart DS, and thanks to a friend, I was eventually able to. I didn't care about his stats; I just thought that it was awesome ROB was in there. I'd rather that instead of unlocking characters, they had some way to build up your stats through these methods instead.
I did like unlocking Rosalina in Mario Kart Wii, though. The requirement seemed fair enough, as I can't really imagine that many people would know or care without having the save data that fulfills the requirement.
I'm not so much bothered by having to unlock stuff, but besides how nice it would be to be able to save stuff you have unlocked in cases such as those specified above, more ways to unlock would be nice. Smash Bros. does this pretty well, at least. It would be nice if other racers in Mario Kart games were unlocked by finishing so many races or whatever, as well as the methods used.
Of course, I kind of like Mario Party's method of earning currency through playing with which you can "buy" your unlockables.
And speaking of buying, I kind of like what EA did in one game (I think it was Tiger Woods) a couple of years ago, either allowing you to unlock some stuff the traditional way, or just dropping the money on stuff if you didn't have the time to dedicate to it.
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Regarding unlockable characters in fighting games, what if characters were only locked in the single player components? And multiplayer already had all the characters unlocked. That sort of seems like a good compromise, but I fear it would get kinda confusing. "Hey, this character is really cool. Wait, why can't I practice with them?"
I'm still coming to terms with you TF2 complainers, as those weapons are fun to unlock.
However!
I have more respect for you guys complaining about SF IV. A buddy and I did it tonight and man...not fun. Too damn boring and we still have the final boss left.
Even one round on easy...too damn long to play the same damn boring fighting game arcade mode. At least in Brawl you could do it multi, or with the mediocre at worst single player mode...
But this? Man. Too many locked characters, and you can't even get them MvC2 style.
this is why this thread is the best
i mean, i hate the tuftoo unlock process. i'm not a huge fan of the way the new weapons turn the game on it's head for a few weeks - but, i do believe i enjoy the overall addition of content. i sure do hate unlocking those fuckers though; because, i feel like i have to do unordinary things and go painfully out of my way to achieve them (even here valve gives some concession with the do x achievements; i will double-jump a lot as a scout - but 1000? really? fuck you just give me the achievement all ready i want gun).
street fighter 4 - i loved it.
i whipped through getting the first 8; and, then... i got to play with every character for a bit - 1 round on easiest is just enough to fuck around with each character a bit. end a couple rounds in a few crazy ultra combos against a cpu that will let it happen, but also block every once in a while. i don't know, i did end up playing through once that didn't matter because i didn't fully understand the gouken requirements right away. but, all in all i didn't find it obtuse or unnecessary.
i mean, damn, i'm conflicted about the topic over two different games. i have completely opposite reactions to 'unlockables' in either game. just goes to show you how impossible it would be to please everyone out there.
HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
edited February 2009
I think this thread is why a friend brought this up to me. That or we just happened to have the same conversation.
In any case, unlockable content in my eyes is generally a, "Hey, you did something that takes some skill! Have a reward!" Kinda like an achievement, only, y'know, rewarded directly. As was said, Smash Bros got creative in regard to how to do things.
I don't have SF4 yet, but I read how to unlock things and it does indeed look really boring. It's basically the same thing, but with every character in the game. There's a bonus side however - you get some amount of experience with each character, and hopefully see what they are capable of. Knowledge is power, y'know.
If you're so important that the brief inconvenience of having to unlock something in a video game is a waste of your precious time, then maybe you should FIND ANOTHER FUCKING HOBBY AND SELL YOUR VIDEO GAMES.
I suggest: sudoku or crossword puzzles because those don't require collecting or unlocking shit, just mundane completion of tasks with no reward.
Similarly, if the only reason you play video games isn't to enjoy the game itself or to compete online, but to just 100% the game and then shelf it forever, FIND ANOTHER FUCKING HOBBY AND SELL YOUR VIDEO GAMES.
I suggest: stamp or coin collecting because the entire enjoyment is having a big fucking book of them to show off to people like anyone fucking cares.
You are BOTH doing it fucking wrong. SHUT THE FUCK UP.
:V
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DomhnallMinty D. Vision!ScotlandRegistered Userregular
edited February 2009
I don't think Genji has read the thread.
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
I'm guessing this is referring to the periodic rollouts and the big rush of players to classes? I always looked at the updates as a purely practical desicion by Valve to keep interest levels high and bring new players in with good word of mouth. But it doesn't serve their purposes for new content to go out of style within a week.
Design wise, sure, you could make that argument. But you're looking at the short term effects. When people come through the initial wave of classes, and they're still playing and discussing the ups and downs of the bonus content months later, that's the holy grail Valve is trying to tap into.
The bolded is irrelevant, though. Many here have claimed that any player who plays scout could like, totally get all the unlocks in a week (which isn't true anyway). Alternately, anybody could certainly farm for all of them within a week. EDIT: And the number of people I see with Bonk already suggests that one or the other is certainly happening.
So if you're claiming that doing unlocks instead of giveaways accomplishes some kind of goal along the lines of the bolded, you're wrong.
Here is the thing about why unlockables suck monkeybut in TF2 specifically. If you look at my time graf in TF2 you will quickly notice that I have played scout more than twice as much as any other class. You will also botice that I play every class from time to time, I do this not necessarily because I love playing soldier once in a while (though of course it can be fun, just not as fun as scout) I do this because my team needs me too. Why do my team need me play a class that is not my favorite? Because TF2 is entirely built around a team gameplay. In other words, a well built team of mediocre players will kick ass compared playing against a badly built team of skilled players. The same can not be said Counter-Strike or most other shooter.
For a more direct example: My favorite class is scout, during the 13 hours I have played the last week I have probably played scout about 30 min, I have gotten 3 achievements. Durings this week I have had less fun playing TF2 than I had the week before. This is because the release of unlockables has destroyed the very basis on which the gameplay is built, a well balanced team of multiple classes.
I have nothing against new content, its awesome! But give to us without the hassle; alot of players will obviously try out the new weapons and try to get some achievements anyway, but I have feeling that the chaos would go down alot quicker and TF2 would go back its glorious self alot faster were the weapons not tied to achievements.
I dont really find the new weapons that unbalanced but as I said before I main scout, I do not have any weapons for the heavy since I dont play heavy that much, but this weekend I would have sure liked to play heavy with natascha to kill all the scouts around, except that I couldnt... And that is flawed.
Am I the only player in TF2 that doesn't "main" or "secondary" anything?
I have one class I've played more than others, but not but that wide a ratio (50 hrs to 30hrs in every other class but one...at least since I reset my stats back when we were allowed to, not long after launch).
And most of that disparity is just because of a phase I went through where I really like playing Dustbowl with a Heavy.
And the number of people I see with Bonk already suggests that one or the other is certainly happening.
Unlockers and achievement servers, I should think. Penny Arcade is still a pretty small slice of the population in TF2, though, so saying that our hardcore corner is the standard against which all players can be judged is silly.
So if you're claiming that doing unlocks instead of giveaways accomplishes some kind of goal along the lines of the bolded, you're wrong.
The percentage of people that will unlock everything within the first week is going to vary quite a bit based on which class we're talking about. But what's more important is the amount of people that will care enough to keep playing that class and/or keep using those unlocks. I imagine that the ones that earn their unlocks will have more of a sense of investment in them, and because they've spent time learning the ins and outs of the class, have more of an appreciation for it. The achievements for each single class serve that dual purpose of creating interest and giving guidance on how the class should be played. I could be wrong, but I'm speculating what Valve's game plan might be, and why they might consider unlockers to be counteractive.
The nature of unlocks also depends heavily on what kind of game it is. For single player games and party games like Smash Bros. or Mario Party, unlocks are just another encouragement to keep playing. For competitive games like Team Fortress 2 or Smash Bros (lol), those unlocks now become something that unbalances the playing field.
And the number of people I see with Bonk already suggests that one or the other is certainly happening.
Unlockers and achievement servers, I should think. Penny Arcade is still a pretty small slice of the population in TF2, though, so saying that our hardcore corner is the standard against which all players can be judged is silly.
I'm not talking about PA servers. Hell, I've barely been able to get into PA servers when I had a chance to play. It's little different on pubs...tons of scouts, and nearly all have at least the Sandman if not the Bonk.
The percentage of people that will unlock everything within the first week is going to vary quite a bit based on which class we're talking about. But what's more important is the amount of people that will care enough to keep playing that class and/or keep using those unlocks. I imagine that the ones that earn their unlocks will have more of a sense of investment in them, and because they've spent time learning the ins and outs of the class, have more of an appreciation for it. The achievements for each single class serve that dual purpose of creating interest and giving guidance on how the class should be played. I could be wrong, but I'm speculating what Valve's game plan might be, and why they might consider unlockers to be counteractive.
And again, for as long as farming is possible they don't serve this purpose at all. They merely separate those willing to waste their time on farming servers from those that don't (at least those that don't "main" the class).
I know this seems kind of broken-record-ish, but people keep saying the exact same shit despite the fact that it is, and has been, easily countered.
I don't get the "you don't deserve x" angle. Unlockables weren't and aren't intended to be some grand reward for the few and the faithful, but rather to provide an enjoyable challenge for the majority of players.
Well, yes, so why negate the challenge and flood the proverbial market with unlocks that would otherwise get distributed over a longer period of time?
Does it not stand to reason that any feature of an entertainment product that makes it less fun for the majority is a bad design move?
I'm guessing this is referring to the periodic rollouts and the big rush of players to classes? I always looked at the updates as a purely practical desicion by Valve to keep interest levels high and bring new players in with good word of mouth. But it doesn't serve their purposes for new content to go out of style within a week.
Design wise, sure, you could make that argument. But you're looking at the short term effects. When people come through the initial wave of classes, and they're still playing and discussing the ups and downs of the bonus content months later, that's the holy grail Valve is trying to tap into.
Hrm? I think you read my post assuming I was speaking out against Valve's system of unlocks. I wasn't. I'm of the opinion that the majority actually enjoys the achievement system, and the very fact that it'd be hard not to unlock a few weapons by just playing and enjoying a class shows that it wasn't designed with any kind of elitist mentality.
The nature of unlocks also depends heavily on what kind of game it is. For single player games and party games like Smash Bros. or Mario Party, unlocks are just another encouragement to keep playing.
But the point of a party game is to, you know, party. In other words, no amount of single-player gaming should be required to get multiplayer content in a multiplayer game.
And again, for as long as farming is possible they don't serve this purpose at all. They merely separate those willing to waste their time on farming servers from those that don't (at least those that don't "main" the class).
Valve can't force people to play a certain way, but they can tell people not to change their product in a certain way, so we get the "no unlockers" announcement. It follows that they would frown on essentially the same kind of behavior coming from within the game, but they can't do much about it.
You're seeing a hard degree of separation there that I don't think really exists. People who farm weapons are still mixing it up with the people who have earned them. When they play against each other they can decide what works best for them and what doesn't. If valve's ideal way of playing the class works the best, chances are more people will play it that way. If not, then vice-versa. My point was that they put the achievements there with an intent. Not that the intent is being ignored.
I mean, you're basing your argument on what might happen, or an assumed scenario that we'll never be able to determine is true or not. Do 90% of scouts cheat for weapons? Assume it's true. Does that mean Valve should put less effort into guiding their players? Why would that even matter to you if farming is so easily done?
The nature of unlocks also depends heavily on what kind of game it is. For single player games and party games like Smash Bros. or Mario Party, unlocks are just another encouragement to keep playing. For competitive games like Team Fortress 2 or Smash Bros (lol), those unlocks now become something that unbalances the playing field.
In terms of Smash, I like stuff like the trophies being unlockables. Considering how nostalgia-fueled the game is, though, that's little surprise.
Not sure that anyone has a problem with the concept of unlockable content, but just that which influences gameplay. Mega Man Anniversary Collection had a neat unlockable that was an episode of G4's Icons which focused on Mega Man and his creator. Cool deal there.
At the same time, I do question the way unlockable content is advertised, like "Solid Snake and Sonic the Hedgehog join the Brawl!" without so much as a "but" or "by the way..." They're getting sneakier about it, certainly...
Can you imagine if you bought Soulcalibur II, and only learned after starting it up that you had to unlock Link/Spawn/Heihachi? I can imagine some people being quite pissed at that.
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Not to derail the thread's current path, but I'd like to mention my experience with unlockables, as I think it unique.
I got into PC TF2 around the heavy update. The free weekend and guest trial thing specifically. Initially, my thoughts were that, having a limited time to play the game I should just go ahead and use the unlocker. And I did, and I had fun for the week or so that I was trial'd. But I caught the bug and purchased the game and a funny thing happened. The achievements--an idea that I'm partial to--lost meaning to me without the unlocks. I had no feelings when I completed one, be it easy or bizarre. I can only assume the lack of incentive, a goal or reward to strive for, is what deadened the thrill of achieving something.
So, I re-locked the milestones. And I've long since gotten all the unlocks for Medic, Heavy and Pyro, and had fun doing so. The Scout ones? I couldn't care less. They look neat, but I rarely play Scout, or at least play it as well as I do those other three. So long as I'm having fun in the process, I reckon, I don't really care about getting the new things right now, especially if they're just sidegrades.
But take a game like FZero-GX. That frustrates me. I don't want to play through some stupid shit mode to have fun otherwise. Hell, you can only unlock "coins" for cars in Single-Player Story mode, if I recall correctly and that shit is both unfun and hard.
Another thing I don't understand is people's compulsion for SHINEYNEW in a class they rarely play. Or why they would stop having fun in order to grind for something, regardless of one's stance on unlockables.
Also, paid unlockables can die in a fire. I'd like to use that nifty harpoon gun, Crackdown, but for ten fucking dollars you can go fuck right off. For that kind of money I can buy whatever super cheap deal is up on Steam at the moment, like a Full Fucking Game.
I just think unlocks should be visual, things like extra costumes, taunts (although you can unlock a few in TF2), extra character models and so on. The moment you have to unlock stuff like weapons or levels it gets annoying. I often go to friends, or they come to me and bring some games to play. But when I get there and we can not play anything besides a single level and 2 characters and have to unlock everything again, that just aint fun.
Also the thing with unlockables is, there will always be some that are better then the rest, just look at Battlefield 2, everyone went for the medic gun first because it was the strongest in the game.
Personally I really like the unlock system in the Timesplitters series, there are loads of unlocks and they are mostly easy to get with some extras for those of us who decide to go all the way (I did). You got all of the levels without unlocking them and most of the archtypes of characters so you didn't need to unlock anything, besides you could build your own levels to circumvent the whole level unlocking issue.
People who farm weapons are still mixing it up with the people who have earned them.
So are people who use the unlockers. In what possible fashion is farming the weapons any different than unlocking other than you're taking a couple hours longer? Valve doesn't want a person doing either.
I got into PC TF2 around the heavy update. The free weekend and guest trial thing specifically. Initially, my thoughts were that, having a limited time to play the game I should just go ahead and use the unlocker. And I did, and I had fun for the week or so that I was trial'd. But I caught the bug and purchased the game and a funny thing happened. The achievements--an idea that I'm partial to--lost meaning to me without the unlocks. I had no feelings when I completed one, be it easy or bizarre. I can only assume the lack of incentive, a goal or reward to strive for, is what deadened the thrill of achieving something.
So, I re-locked the milestones. And I've long since gotten all the unlocks for Medic, Heavy and Pyro, and had fun doing so. The Scout ones? I couldn't care less. They look neat, but I rarely play Scout, or at least play it as well as I do those other three. So long as I'm having fun in the process, I reckon, I don't really care about getting the new things right now, especially if they're just sidegrades.
I feel the opposite, personally. I think it would be nice if, when I achieve Rasputin, I think "I am the strongest man alive!" instead of "Only three more."
Back before achievements people still did amazing things. There was a little bit a "pics or it didn't happen" mentality, but for the most part what mattered was getting these things done in a "real" game, or at least a scrim. At that point everything is being demoed anyways, so there was never a dispute. They made for nice stories and a constant stream of frag movies.
I don't really get the need for a little merit badge, though, unless you run into someone who demands proof. If I did it, I did it. I know I did it. There are shots that I've made and games that I've played where I would kill to have the demos again, but they're gone, and I don't have anything to prove. Frankly, at my peak I would make several amazing shots a game, and even later on I could pull something out of my ass once and a while. I still have demos of a few of those games, too. Now that I don't play regularly I don't have proof of how good I used to be, though I think I could get back to my previous levels with some training. But no achievement list would help me with that.
I guess achievements help the more casual crowd, but how often do you look through someone else's achievements to see if they've hit 10 headshots in a row or whatever, and what do you think about someone who has? They still seem like a personal thing. And that's not what kept me, or anyone else, playing; we played because we loved the game and had fun competing at a high level, not because we only needed 5 more kills to get our Hiking Badge.
But lots of the weapons you unlock in TF2 are very situational, as you have pointed out
They do provide the upper hand in these situations, but are not only in the hands of the people are good, just the people who consistently play that class.
Valve originally intended these weapons as rewards for people who play certain classes consistently. People with the mentality of "Oh well I'll unlock the weapons then never play the class again" are...ahm..."doing it wrong."
And none of the achievements in TF2 are hard to get. You can go through the milestones pretty easily, even if you're not trying, if you just play that class a lot
Medic... The medic ones are fucking terrible. The other ones are not as bad. Personally, I don't want the achievements directly tied to the unlocks. I see how it might bring in new or retired players for a while because they want to try out the new weapons, but I simply find it annoying. The way Valve is releasing these updates also makes it an issue. If the weapons were instantly available people would only try out the class for a little bit then things would even out again. Right now there are scouts everywhere. In Call of Duty 4 it works because things are easy to unlock and the weapons are all very similar. Since every player has the same weapons to chose from they can make the unlocking process more rewarding. The TF2 achievements takes a lot longer and it can create an imbalance. Then there are things like the medic achievements, which are just fucking stupid.
I meant to imply that you have to give yourself the advantage, like in any FPS game. Take Halo as an example, if the enemy has sword and assault rife and you have snipe and assault rifle you know that you have to keep them at range. Of course the sword is a much better weapon at long range so that is how you have to give yourself the advantage.
Same thing for the pyro, with the normal flamethrower you have defense against rockets so you can be a little more agressive. With the backburner you do not have that option so you have to be more sneaky, its all about playing into your advantage.
Not sure if this has been commented on but this is a terrible example. In Halo everyone has access to the same weaponry and there is no unlocking or anything of the sort involved.
That was not the point I was trying to make, which I already explained, I was just describing that since you have different weapons you have to play differently. Is the sniper better than the sword? Maybe but both have very different uses and you have to play differently with each weapon.
Yes but the difference here is that you don't have to give yourself the advantage, you have to unlock it, meaning it isn't an advantage taken from an even playing field. It's still a terrible example. That said, a sniper can just as easily kill a sword guy at close range. Two pops and a melee goes just as fast as locking on a sword. Hell, a competent sniper could handle two sword guys close range no problem.
You missed the point, again I will explain myself. In TF2 you never have an advantage over other players unless you give yourself the advantage. As an example, a pyro can not just run straight at an enemy they have to sneak up on them or ambush them. A sniper can not just run straight into a fight, they have to stay back. The unlockable weapons do not change this, they do not give any unfair advantages, and if they do they are very slight.
Pyro weapons, the unlockable flamethrower is a fair trade off at best, at worse you potential damage for a loss of defense. The flare gun has very limited uses and takes away a very important tool, the shotgun. Without the shotgun you will have a hard time killing fleeing enemies. The axe is pretty good and the flamethrower axetinguisher combo is pretty good but really just straight up flamethrowering is just as good.
The heavy has a mess of worthless unlocks. The Sandvich is only good when you have a bad team, natasha has very limited use and is almost never worth using. The gloves are good I guess.
No matter what weapons you have in TF2 you can give yourself an advantage, but remember this is a team based game.
I think TF2 did a good job with unlocks, SF4 did a bad job. In TF2 you can play normal and get achievments under normal circumstances. In SF4 you have to unlock characters by doing ridiculous things you usually wouldn't do in a game, in single player mode too.
Why did you have to bring up Halo at all to make your case? Just say what you said.
If I missed the point it was only because there was a shit argument in the way.
Nothing about Halo has anything to do with the situation you are describing.
Does anyone know if the achievement unlocker allows you to chose which class to unlock stuff for? I don't want to unlock the stuff for heavy and scout because I want to earn it legitimately. The medic, on the other hand, is downright impossible (and I already got all the pyro ones).
People who farm weapons are still mixing it up with the people who have earned them.
So are people who use the unlockers. In what possible fashion is farming the weapons any different than unlocking other than you're taking a couple hours longer? Valve doesn't want a person doing either.
Amount of playtime, I would imagine. Even getting bodies into the servers to check out the new stuff works to their advantage (if maybe not for the length of time or the reasons they'd like). But like I said, Valve doesn't have much control over other peoples' servers or how individuals play the game. They only have control over what's being done to their code.
Believe me, I understand that a bunch of people are going to do things to their game despite what anyone has to say about it. But they do so with a totally imagined sense of ownership.
People who farm weapons are still mixing it up with the people who have earned them.
So are people who use the unlockers. In what possible fashion is farming the weapons any different than unlocking other than you're taking a couple hours longer? Valve doesn't want a person doing either.
Amount of playtime, I would imagine. Even getting bodies into the servers to check out the new stuff works to their advantage (if maybe not for the length of time or the reasons they'd like). But like I said, Valve doesn't have much control over other peoples' servers or how individuals play the game. They only have control over what's being done to their code.
Believe me, I understand that a bunch of people are going to do things to their game despite what anyone has to say about it. But they do so with a totally imagined sense of ownership.
And the process of trying to get as many achievements as possible quickly is a bit of a metagame. I often partner up with a friend of mine and bounce between empty servers trying to "beat the system" through critical thinking and creativity.
I know there's a very thin line between what I just described and the universally despised "achievement servers," but the way I distinguish the two is that my way is fun. I tend to complete only the easiest or most bizarre challenges this way, then just play the class in real combat to get the last one or two items.
I didn't mean to sound like I'm criticizing playstyles, because you're right, fun is the goal. I just want to dissuade people from thinking that instant gratification is how Valve wants to or should be doing things.
I didn't mean to sound like I'm criticizing playstyles, because you're right, fun is the goal. I just want to dissuade people from thinking that instant gratification is how Valve wants to or should be doing things.
teehee...download this game to play NOW!
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I don't get the "you don't deserve x" angle. Unlockables weren't and aren't intended to be some grand reward for the few and the faithful, but rather to provide an enjoyable challenge for the majority of players.
Does it not stand to reason that any feature of an entertainment product that makes it less fun for the majority is a bad design move? I mean, calling a generation out on an overblown sense of entitlement is all well and good for debate, but this isn't good evidence.
I would like it if they put in a native unlocker though. That would solve a lot of problems.
What's important is that we can all agree the mushrooms are terrible and should never even be mentioned in the same sentence as pizza.
No, I'm not making an analogy about unlockables and mushrooms being awful. I just really hate mushrooms.
Well, yes, so why negate the challenge and flood the proverbial market with unlocks that would otherwise get distributed over a longer period of time?
I'm guessing this is referring to the periodic rollouts and the big rush of players to classes? I always looked at the updates as a purely practical desicion by Valve to keep interest levels high and bring new players in with good word of mouth. But it doesn't serve their purposes for new content to go out of style within a week.
Design wise, sure, you could make that argument. But you're looking at the short term effects. When people come through the initial wave of classes, and they're still playing and discussing the ups and downs of the bonus content months later, that's the holy grail Valve is trying to tap into.
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Come to think of it, I dislike unlockable characters most of the time. I don't like the thought of maining Cammy in Street Fighter, but having to waste my time with someone else just to play as her in Street Fighter IV.
Nor in Mario Kart Wii. My wife would like to play as Dry Bones, and I wouldn't mind trying Funky Kong, but we're just not good enough at the game (particularly as it pertains to all the unalterable random crap item usage in the only modes that allow you to unlock characters and such) to do it.
Unlocking the Miis is even more boggling; aren't they supposed to be sort of representative of the more "casual" appeal of the game? And yet, they're some of the hardest ones to unlock.
I really wanted to use ROB in Mario Kart DS, and thanks to a friend, I was eventually able to. I didn't care about his stats; I just thought that it was awesome ROB was in there. I'd rather that instead of unlocking characters, they had some way to build up your stats through these methods instead.
I did like unlocking Rosalina in Mario Kart Wii, though. The requirement seemed fair enough, as I can't really imagine that many people would know or care without having the save data that fulfills the requirement.
I'm not so much bothered by having to unlock stuff, but besides how nice it would be to be able to save stuff you have unlocked in cases such as those specified above, more ways to unlock would be nice. Smash Bros. does this pretty well, at least. It would be nice if other racers in Mario Kart games were unlocked by finishing so many races or whatever, as well as the methods used.
Of course, I kind of like Mario Party's method of earning currency through playing with which you can "buy" your unlockables.
And speaking of buying, I kind of like what EA did in one game (I think it was Tiger Woods) a couple of years ago, either allowing you to unlock some stuff the traditional way, or just dropping the money on stuff if you didn't have the time to dedicate to it.
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I ordered soup at a restaurant earlier today, and it had goddamn mushrooms in it. Not as rage-inducing as pizza, but still.
this is why this thread is the best
i mean, i hate the tuftoo unlock process. i'm not a huge fan of the way the new weapons turn the game on it's head for a few weeks - but, i do believe i enjoy the overall addition of content. i sure do hate unlocking those fuckers though; because, i feel like i have to do unordinary things and go painfully out of my way to achieve them (even here valve gives some concession with the do x achievements; i will double-jump a lot as a scout - but 1000? really? fuck you just give me the achievement all ready i want gun).
street fighter 4 - i loved it.
i whipped through getting the first 8; and, then... i got to play with every character for a bit - 1 round on easiest is just enough to fuck around with each character a bit. end a couple rounds in a few crazy ultra combos against a cpu that will let it happen, but also block every once in a while. i don't know, i did end up playing through once that didn't matter because i didn't fully understand the gouken requirements right away. but, all in all i didn't find it obtuse or unnecessary.
i mean, damn, i'm conflicted about the topic over two different games. i have completely opposite reactions to 'unlockables' in either game. just goes to show you how impossible it would be to please everyone out there.
In any case, unlockable content in my eyes is generally a, "Hey, you did something that takes some skill! Have a reward!" Kinda like an achievement, only, y'know, rewarded directly. As was said, Smash Bros got creative in regard to how to do things.
I don't have SF4 yet, but I read how to unlock things and it does indeed look really boring. It's basically the same thing, but with every character in the game. There's a bonus side however - you get some amount of experience with each character, and hopefully see what they are capable of. Knowledge is power, y'know.
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The bolded is irrelevant, though. Many here have claimed that any player who plays scout could like, totally get all the unlocks in a week (which isn't true anyway). Alternately, anybody could certainly farm for all of them within a week. EDIT: And the number of people I see with Bonk already suggests that one or the other is certainly happening.
So if you're claiming that doing unlocks instead of giveaways accomplishes some kind of goal along the lines of the bolded, you're wrong.
For a more direct example: My favorite class is scout, during the 13 hours I have played the last week I have probably played scout about 30 min, I have gotten 3 achievements. Durings this week I have had less fun playing TF2 than I had the week before. This is because the release of unlockables has destroyed the very basis on which the gameplay is built, a well balanced team of multiple classes.
I have nothing against new content, its awesome! But give to us without the hassle; alot of players will obviously try out the new weapons and try to get some achievements anyway, but I have feeling that the chaos would go down alot quicker and TF2 would go back its glorious self alot faster were the weapons not tied to achievements.
I dont really find the new weapons that unbalanced but as I said before I main scout, I do not have any weapons for the heavy since I dont play heavy that much, but this weekend I would have sure liked to play heavy with natascha to kill all the scouts around, except that I couldnt... And that is flawed.
I have one class I've played more than others, but not but that wide a ratio (50 hrs to 30hrs in every other class but one...at least since I reset my stats back when we were allowed to, not long after launch).
And most of that disparity is just because of a phase I went through where I really like playing Dustbowl with a Heavy.
Unlockers and achievement servers, I should think. Penny Arcade is still a pretty small slice of the population in TF2, though, so saying that our hardcore corner is the standard against which all players can be judged is silly.
The percentage of people that will unlock everything within the first week is going to vary quite a bit based on which class we're talking about. But what's more important is the amount of people that will care enough to keep playing that class and/or keep using those unlocks. I imagine that the ones that earn their unlocks will have more of a sense of investment in them, and because they've spent time learning the ins and outs of the class, have more of an appreciation for it. The achievements for each single class serve that dual purpose of creating interest and giving guidance on how the class should be played. I could be wrong, but I'm speculating what Valve's game plan might be, and why they might consider unlockers to be counteractive.
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I'm not talking about PA servers. Hell, I've barely been able to get into PA servers when I had a chance to play. It's little different on pubs...tons of scouts, and nearly all have at least the Sandman if not the Bonk.
And again, for as long as farming is possible they don't serve this purpose at all. They merely separate those willing to waste their time on farming servers from those that don't (at least those that don't "main" the class).
I know this seems kind of broken-record-ish, but people keep saying the exact same shit despite the fact that it is, and has been, easily countered.
Hrm? I think you read my post assuming I was speaking out against Valve's system of unlocks. I wasn't. I'm of the opinion that the majority actually enjoys the achievement system, and the very fact that it'd be hard not to unlock a few weapons by just playing and enjoying a class shows that it wasn't designed with any kind of elitist mentality.
But the point of a party game is to, you know, party. In other words, no amount of single-player gaming should be required to get multiplayer content in a multiplayer game.
Valve can't force people to play a certain way, but they can tell people not to change their product in a certain way, so we get the "no unlockers" announcement. It follows that they would frown on essentially the same kind of behavior coming from within the game, but they can't do much about it.
You're seeing a hard degree of separation there that I don't think really exists. People who farm weapons are still mixing it up with the people who have earned them. When they play against each other they can decide what works best for them and what doesn't. If valve's ideal way of playing the class works the best, chances are more people will play it that way. If not, then vice-versa. My point was that they put the achievements there with an intent. Not that the intent is being ignored.
I mean, you're basing your argument on what might happen, or an assumed scenario that we'll never be able to determine is true or not. Do 90% of scouts cheat for weapons? Assume it's true. Does that mean Valve should put less effort into guiding their players? Why would that even matter to you if farming is so easily done?
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In terms of Smash, I like stuff like the trophies being unlockables. Considering how nostalgia-fueled the game is, though, that's little surprise.
Not sure that anyone has a problem with the concept of unlockable content, but just that which influences gameplay. Mega Man Anniversary Collection had a neat unlockable that was an episode of G4's Icons which focused on Mega Man and his creator. Cool deal there.
At the same time, I do question the way unlockable content is advertised, like "Solid Snake and Sonic the Hedgehog join the Brawl!" without so much as a "but" or "by the way..." They're getting sneakier about it, certainly...
Can you imagine if you bought Soulcalibur II, and only learned after starting it up that you had to unlock Link/Spawn/Heihachi? I can imagine some people being quite pissed at that.
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I got into PC TF2 around the heavy update. The free weekend and guest trial thing specifically. Initially, my thoughts were that, having a limited time to play the game I should just go ahead and use the unlocker. And I did, and I had fun for the week or so that I was trial'd. But I caught the bug and purchased the game and a funny thing happened. The achievements--an idea that I'm partial to--lost meaning to me without the unlocks. I had no feelings when I completed one, be it easy or bizarre. I can only assume the lack of incentive, a goal or reward to strive for, is what deadened the thrill of achieving something.
So, I re-locked the milestones. And I've long since gotten all the unlocks for Medic, Heavy and Pyro, and had fun doing so. The Scout ones? I couldn't care less. They look neat, but I rarely play Scout, or at least play it as well as I do those other three. So long as I'm having fun in the process, I reckon, I don't really care about getting the new things right now, especially if they're just sidegrades.
But take a game like FZero-GX. That frustrates me. I don't want to play through some stupid shit mode to have fun otherwise. Hell, you can only unlock "coins" for cars in Single-Player Story mode, if I recall correctly and that shit is both unfun and hard.
Another thing I don't understand is people's compulsion for SHINEYNEW in a class they rarely play. Or why they would stop having fun in order to grind for something, regardless of one's stance on unlockables.
Also, paid unlockables can die in a fire. I'd like to use that nifty harpoon gun, Crackdown, but for ten fucking dollars you can go fuck right off. For that kind of money I can buy whatever super cheap deal is up on Steam at the moment, like a Full Fucking Game.
Also the thing with unlockables is, there will always be some that are better then the rest, just look at Battlefield 2, everyone went for the medic gun first because it was the strongest in the game.
Personally I really like the unlock system in the Timesplitters series, there are loads of unlocks and they are mostly easy to get with some extras for those of us who decide to go all the way (I did). You got all of the levels without unlocking them and most of the archtypes of characters so you didn't need to unlock anything, besides you could build your own levels to circumvent the whole level unlocking issue.
I feel the opposite, personally. I think it would be nice if, when I achieve Rasputin, I think "I am the strongest man alive!" instead of "Only three more."
I don't really get the need for a little merit badge, though, unless you run into someone who demands proof. If I did it, I did it. I know I did it. There are shots that I've made and games that I've played where I would kill to have the demos again, but they're gone, and I don't have anything to prove. Frankly, at my peak I would make several amazing shots a game, and even later on I could pull something out of my ass once and a while. I still have demos of a few of those games, too. Now that I don't play regularly I don't have proof of how good I used to be, though I think I could get back to my previous levels with some training. But no achievement list would help me with that.
I guess achievements help the more casual crowd, but how often do you look through someone else's achievements to see if they've hit 10 headshots in a row or whatever, and what do you think about someone who has? They still seem like a personal thing. And that's not what kept me, or anyone else, playing; we played because we loved the game and had fun competing at a high level, not because we only needed 5 more kills to get our Hiking Badge.
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Medic... The medic ones are fucking terrible. The other ones are not as bad. Personally, I don't want the achievements directly tied to the unlocks. I see how it might bring in new or retired players for a while because they want to try out the new weapons, but I simply find it annoying. The way Valve is releasing these updates also makes it an issue. If the weapons were instantly available people would only try out the class for a little bit then things would even out again. Right now there are scouts everywhere. In Call of Duty 4 it works because things are easy to unlock and the weapons are all very similar. Since every player has the same weapons to chose from they can make the unlocking process more rewarding. The TF2 achievements takes a lot longer and it can create an imbalance. Then there are things like the medic achievements, which are just fucking stupid.
Why did you have to bring up Halo at all to make your case? Just say what you said.
If I missed the point it was only because there was a shit argument in the way.
Nothing about Halo has anything to do with the situation you are describing.
Amount of playtime, I would imagine. Even getting bodies into the servers to check out the new stuff works to their advantage (if maybe not for the length of time or the reasons they'd like). But like I said, Valve doesn't have much control over other peoples' servers or how individuals play the game. They only have control over what's being done to their code.
Believe me, I understand that a bunch of people are going to do things to their game despite what anyone has to say about it. But they do so with a totally imagined sense of ownership.
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And the process of trying to get as many achievements as possible quickly is a bit of a metagame. I often partner up with a friend of mine and bounce between empty servers trying to "beat the system" through critical thinking and creativity.
I know there's a very thin line between what I just described and the universally despised "achievement servers," but the way I distinguish the two is that my way is fun. I tend to complete only the easiest or most bizarre challenges this way, then just play the class in real combat to get the last one or two items.
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...really?
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