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I gotta do WHAT? [Unlockables in multiplayer games]
mcdermott
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Registered User regular
Are unlockables in multiplayer competitive games a good idea? Bad idea? Annoying as fuck?
From the TF2 thread, a few posts to get us started:
So, what do we think?
From the TF2 thread, a few posts to get us started:
mcdermott wrote:SithDrummer wrote: »Do we really want to go to town on this unlocker debate? Because anyone familiar with me knows I have no love for Valve and will gladly take them down in the process of showing some people here just how dumb they are, and how dumb this idea of "earning" weapons from achievements is.
i'm trying to understand how only sith and i have taken this stance.
They're trying to get people to play the class more. They can do that by giving goals to work towards and rewards for those goals.
I don't know what's hard to understand about that system.
Don't see the grief either.
None of the weapons are unbalanced as far as I can see, and the old weapons are still readily available. They want people who haven't played the game in a while to come back and get people who have never really played the Scout (like me) to invest some time in the class.
Depending on the situation many of the weapons are unbalanced. If you're on defense on Dustbowl or Gravel Pit, and the other team is running lots of scouts and pyros, you're at a disadvantage without Natascha. If you're short a medic (or he's defending another point) you're at a disadvantage without the Sandvich. And a Kritz+Uber combo or just a Kritz against a rush of light units is definitely better than an Uber.
And that's before you get into the Blutslauger, which I can't remember the last time I saw anybody wielding the Needlegun. EDIT: Check that, yeah I can...last time the unlockables were down and nobody had them. And I was all "why the fuck am I not getting health back when I shoot these fuckers?"
The Pyro I'll agree with, though depending on playstyle the Backburner might benefit a lot of people, to the point that I'd say they're at a disadvantage without it. Oh, and the Axetinguisher, which I can't even imagine bothering to equip the regular Axe ever again.
And the people who have put at least some time into Scout (not that I'm that great at it, but I've got over twenty hours in the class) might be just a little annoyed at having to put more time in doing shit and going out of our way to do shit that we've already done. How many buildings have I destroyed before they were fully built in the past? A lot more than three. I'm sure I've run 25K in that 20+ hours too. And double-jumped a thousand times. And killed 20 enemies while double-jumping. And so on (I can't remember many of them right now). I've probably already "achieved" 16 or so of these before they were achievements.
So, in a week or two when the Scoutsterbation has died down, my team needs one, and I switch to Scout why exactly should I not have the Sandman and FoN already available to me?
mcdermott wrote:you are constraining your argument to elements that fall in your favor - which masks how debased your argument is.
Why are you limiting your definition of the absurdity of unlocks just to FPS? why not to all games?
your "argument" is purely opinion driven, and is one that doesn't matter in the face of a system designed to have you earn diversity in your character options.
FPSs are a genre where multiplayer gameplay is primarily limited to direct competition with other players, and in the case of TF2 it is entirely limited to direct competition with other players. And they are a genre where, in the past, the playing field was level aside from player skill.
So in this way I'd say they are unique, or at least different from most other games (unlockable cars in multiplayer racing games were annoying as well).
I'll accept that TF2 is not the only game ever to go this route, but it is the first that I've played. If CoD4 uses unlockables I'd hate that too.
I'll also point out that when I purchased this game this was not the case. And it's not like I can sell it if I decide I don't like it.
So, what do we think?
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I would not be looking forward to replaying SSE or hundreds of multiplayer matches if my Brawl data is ever erased for one reason or another.
I see it the same as I do loot in MMOs. If you do the quest and earn the weapon, you deserve to use it.
You have to define "unlevel". As mentioned in OP, the fella responding to me stated that a Heavy having the sandvich works well when a medic is gone. But you have to make a sacrifice with the shotgun, thus limiting your ammo. You'll have to make frequent trips back to resupply if all you have is the minigun, so I don't see why making that trip to resupply for health would be any different.
bullshit, wrong.
this "i deserve" mentality in my generation is beyond retarded, and I don't like it.
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That's a good point you make about the better players getting better weapons. It could quickly become imbalanced. And I haven't played TF2 much, so I don't have that frame of reference. But in Lost Planet, you earn new costumes as you gain rank online. The costume doesn't give you any advantage, but it does serve as a visual indicator of rank. It's about as safe as you can get when it comes to unlockables like this.
I'm hoping that the unlockables in Killzone 2 don't throw the balance all out of whack.
I love that.
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Of course, but having a bad or incompetent team doesn't mean that unlockables are inherently a bad idea.
Its your choice. Either be good at the class or farm them. You can get them both ways.
Now I had to redo Melee four times because of lost/stolen/damaged memory cards, and that game is freaking hard to unlock stuff in compared to brawl.
In Brawl you can literally make 5 second matches or do SSE on ridiculously easy and have it done in a few hours. In Melee the quickest you can unlock everyone is what, 7 or 8 hours?
Also Perfect Dark. A great multiplayer game with great unlockables.
But lots of the weapons you unlock in TF2 are very situational, as you have pointed out
They do provide the upper hand in these situations, but are not only in the hands of the people are good, just the people who consistently play that class.
Valve originally intended these weapons as rewards for people who play certain classes consistently. People with the mentality of "Oh well I'll unlock the weapons then never play the class again" are...ahm..."doing it wrong."
And none of the achievements in TF2 are hard to get. You can go through the milestones pretty easily, even if you're not trying, if you just play that class a lot
But that doesn't make it imbalanced, because you have counters to that disadvantage, which evens it out
Not to mention TF2 is a team game, so it's balanced for the team, not 1v1 encounters. Scout vs heavy, you'll ALWAYS be at a disadvantage in terms of damage, health, etc.
Using starcraft as an example, just because the zealot is better than the zergling does not put you at a disadvantage
On the subject of unlockables I think CoD4 handled it well. It was all governed by an exp system which any player, regardless of skill will eventually earn. Yes, you earn specific "achievements" but those in turn give an exp bonus, and had no bearing on what was unlocked ( unless you count the golden weapons ).
TF2 as you know unlocks everything from specific achievements. This system is fine but the specific nature can lead to frustration for people who have no experience with the class. I'm sure the rebuttal will be " they can learn to play that class ". That is true, but it is still an oxymoron ( in my mind ) to offer TF2 at a discount price / updates to attract newcomers and then bombard them with some pretty specific achievements ( some requiring a good knowledge of the class ) for them to earn.
In the case of multiplayer only unlockables, it's fine unless what you unlock is significantly more powerful than what you started out with. Because I think that might discourage new players if they're constantly getting whomped by people who have already unlocked things that make them more powerful. This not only makes the game less fun for the newbie, but it makes it harder for him to unlock said items just to get on par with those other players. Using TF2 as a specific example, none of the new weapons are really over powered, so I think it's a good thing.
It was single-handedly what made me realize I should quit playing WoW.
Well-balanced awards for accomplishments are one thing. Handing out magical pixie dust that gives you a clear advantage over other players based almost entirely on how many hours per week you play is quite another.
That said, my sense of accomplishment for having earned my M14 isn't harmed one bit by your having cheated to get yours.
This isn't the case at all, the milestones are setup so people can get the needed achievements for the unlock without having to worry about some of the tougher ones
I've played the scout for about 3 hours total in the past 3 days and have already gained 11 achievements without aiming for any of them
But meh I don't like the direction they took TF2 in and while I still enjoy playing it and it was definitely worth the pric,. I think it could of been better.
Regardless of whether the game is single or multiplayer, I like unlockables as they award you for doing certain things in the games.
I see your point. I still think it can be a little overwhelming for new people though.
Art galleries and other superfluous extras are neat rewards in fighters, but not hidden characters. In what universe is it sensible to withhold core content from the player and force him through hours of un-fun nonsense and calling this replay value?
lol at the earlier "generation" talk. The most I remember having to go through to play as secret characters in the old days were a few button codes or a quick romp through arcade mode.
The main problem, to me, is that you bought the game, so you shouldn't have to go through hoops and loops to view the content on the disc. Metroid Prime 3, for instance, used that abhorrent friend gift system. That sort of thing should not be encouraged, and neither should the unlocking of elements that are crucial to the experience.
A large amount of the Street Fighter 4 userbase will probably never get to play as Gouken. It's a completely arbitrary decision, and only detracts from the game's online community. Unlocking entire characters in fighting games is a forced sense of progression that doesn't need to be there. SF 4 and Smash Bros. are particularly bad about it.
The first part isn't so much a failure on Valve's part, just everyone scrambling to try out something new in the game because they've tried everything else. I've only jumped over to scout because of the achievements and now find myself rather hooked on it, so I'll probably be playing it more in the future
And in terms of playing a wide variety of classes, you're not opted out of the achievements, you'll still get them, just not as fast as others.
No, because it's well within your ability to gain that "shit" that you can't do in Tf2.
If you want cases of imbalance, see various versions of Company of Heroes as it went through the patching stages. From overpowered infantry to 1 second artillery that the other side does not have the ability to get themselves
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Much hate was poured from me to that system. I never did get my fucking Mii bobblehead.
Well, I fucking love SSE, so this is a moot point on my part anyways. I play it on Intense or whatever that difficulty is for kicks.
If it's overpowered/underpowered will it be buffed/nerfed? In the case of TF2 for the most part, yes.
Then i suppose it's down to wether or not you like the method of unlocking, Achievements or XP/levels/ranks.
Achievements: are they ridiculous? are you going to be able to get them in an hour? is it going to take weeks to get anywhere near an unlock?
XP: Are the times between levels ridiculously long? How long are you going to have to play to get that super duper magic wand?
Valve seem to have found a decent balance for the achievements, you can get 10 relatively easily, the next 5 or so you get will be noticebly hard than the 1st 10 and the last 6 or so will be even harder, but no so hard it would take you months
Some of the point you raise in the OP:
Some weapons are situational, it's up the persons playing to decide wether or not this situation calls for that weapon, because someone chose correctly in that situation does not make it overpowered, it makes it the right weapon for that situation.
It's pretty obvious that with the release style Valve have used, 1 class at a time, that class will be swarmed with players, people want to try the new stuff.
You wait until the Scoutfest dies down, you play Scout, you're without the FAN or the Sandman, you did well enough without them before, why are you entitled to them? because they are there?
You may well have jumped around 1000 times or ran 25 kilometres, but giving retroactive achievements is nigh on impossible, they can't track every little thing you do in order to give you achievements they haven't even thought of yet.
That's only for unlocking all the characters, you still need to do some other things to unlock the rest of the stages, and that's not even getting into the games crazy amount of stickers, trophies, songs and achievements.