On the other hand, you have no record of being "soft on terror", while still knowing the information would get out.
The people who will call him "soft on terror" will do so regardless. Because he's a Democrat Socialist Liberal.
I think, for the purposes of handling this issue, the perceptions of those outside the US are more important than the perceptions of those inside. And the perceptions of those outside the US are now pretty compromised.
End of the world? No. But this could've been handled better.
ElJeffe on
I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
On the other hand, you have no record of being "soft on terror", while still knowing the information would get out.
The people who will call him "soft on terror" will do so regardless. Because he's a Democrat Socialist Liberal.
I think, for the purposes of handling this issue, the perceptions of those outside the US are more important than the perceptions of those inside. And the perceptions of those outside the US are now pretty compromised.
End of the world? No. But this could've been handled better.
I don't agree. His ability to play to the locals is what will get him the political gains he wants.
Shryke, I guess the whole situation sucks no matter how the info got out, huh?
Pretty much. "Punishing criminals" and "Progress" are going to be at odds for a long time with this administration.
If there is information, it will eventually leak. Someone in the chain of custody will crack. Doing so on your own terms is preferable to "here's the big secret everyone involved has to live with." In terms of how this leaked, it far worse than us just releasing them per normal channels and running with it.
That said: what unbelievable moron PHOTOGRAPHS all this? Like, seriously, has myspace/facebook so murdered our common sense that we've decided to document everything illegal we do on a lark and just act like only people we like will ever see the information? Seriously people. If there's one thing that annoys me more than massive global coverups of human rights violations, it's INCOMPETENT massive global coverups of human rights violations.
If there is information, it will eventually leak. Someone in the chain of custody will crack. Doing so on your own terms is preferable to "here's the big secret everyone involved has to live with." In terms of how this leaked, it far worse than us just releasing them per normal channels and running with it.
That said: what unbelievable moron PHOTOGRAPHS all this? Like, seriously, has myspace/facebook so murdered our common sense that we've decided to document everything illegal we do on a lark and just act like only people we like will ever see the information? Seriously people. If there's one thing that annoys me more than massive global coverups of human rights violations, it's INCOMPETENT massive global coverups of human rights violations.
As far as I'd heard, the CIA types were photographing it to use as proof that they were only going as far as the White House told them they could, in order to cover their own asses.
That said: what unbelievable moron PHOTOGRAPHS all this? Like, seriously, has myspace/facebook so murdered our common sense that we've decided to document everything illegal we do on a lark and just act like only people we like will ever see the information? Seriously people. If there's one thing that annoys me more than massive global coverups of human rights violations, it's INCOMPETENT massive global coverups of human rights violations.
Shhhhh. I'd rather crimes be done incompetently.
joshofalltrades on
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DrakeEdgelord TrashBelow the ecliptic plane.Registered Userregular
If there is information, it will eventually leak. Someone in the chain of custody will crack. Doing so on your own terms is preferable to "here's the big secret everyone involved has to live with." In terms of how this leaked, it far worse than us just releasing them per normal channels and running with it.
That said: what unbelievable moron PHOTOGRAPHS all this? Like, seriously, has myspace/facebook so murdered our common sense that we've decided to document everything illegal we do on a lark and just act like only people we like will ever see the information? Seriously people. If there's one thing that annoys me more than massive global coverups of human rights violations, it's INCOMPETENT massive global coverups of human rights violations.
This stuff was never meant to go beyond Cheney's personal scat/snuff/torture porn collection. It's what he likes to do after shooting friends in the face or eating babies or something. JESUS! GrRRaarrHUURRGAAAaarrrrRRRAAAArrrR doesn't even come fucking close.
If there is information, it will eventually leak. Someone in the chain of custody will crack. Doing so on your own terms is preferable to "here's the big secret everyone involved has to live with." In terms of how this leaked, it far worse than us just releasing them per normal channels and running with it.
That said: what unbelievable moron PHOTOGRAPHS all this? Like, seriously, has myspace/facebook so murdered our common sense that we've decided to document everything illegal we do on a lark and just act like only people we like will ever see the information? Seriously people. If there's one thing that annoys me more than massive global coverups of human rights violations, it's INCOMPETENT massive global coverups of human rights violations.
As far as I'd heard, the CIA types were photographing it to use as proof that they were only going as far as the White House told them they could, in order to cover their own asses.
The WH told them they could hang detainees upside down and smear them with shit?
ElJeffe on
I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
If there is information, it will eventually leak. Someone in the chain of custody will crack. Doing so on your own terms is preferable to "here's the big secret everyone involved has to live with." In terms of how this leaked, it far worse than us just releasing them per normal channels and running with it.
That said: what unbelievable moron PHOTOGRAPHS all this? Like, seriously, has myspace/facebook so murdered our common sense that we've decided to document everything illegal we do on a lark and just act like only people we like will ever see the information? Seriously people. If there's one thing that annoys me more than massive global coverups of human rights violations, it's INCOMPETENT massive global coverups of human rights violations.
As far as I'd heard, the CIA types were photographing it to use as proof that they were only going as far as the White House told them they could, in order to cover their own asses.
That doesn't hold with what some of the photos are. Like, I can see that in a lot of instances, but some are the wardens/interrogators/whatever POSING with their victim. It's sick, and gives the impression it's a vanity photo. Look ma, I can commit war crimes! Documenting things to cover your ass is totally understandable. Documenting horrible things because they're totally bitching? That should be extra jailtime for stupid.
If there is information, it will eventually leak. Someone in the chain of custody will crack. Doing so on your own terms is preferable to "here's the big secret everyone involved has to live with." In terms of how this leaked, it far worse than us just releasing them per normal channels and running with it.
That said: what unbelievable moron PHOTOGRAPHS all this? Like, seriously, has myspace/facebook so murdered our common sense that we've decided to document everything illegal we do on a lark and just act like only people we like will ever see the information? Seriously people. If there's one thing that annoys me more than massive global coverups of human rights violations, it's INCOMPETENT massive global coverups of human rights violations.
As far as I'd heard, the CIA types were photographing it to use as proof that they were only going as far as the White House told them they could, in order to cover their own asses.
That doesn't hold with what some of the photos are. Like, I can see that in a lot of instances, but some are the wardens/interrogators/whatever POSING with their victim. It's sick, and gives the impression it's a vanity photo. Look ma, I can commit war crimes! Documenting things to cover your ass is totally understandable. Documenting horrible things because they're totally bitching? That should be extra jailtime for stupid.
I was under the impression that the CIA taking the photos was primarily in relation to interrogation practices in Gitmo, and these current photos are related to prisoner abuses in Afghanistan and Iraq.
I was under the impression that the CIA taking the photos was primarily in relation to interrogation practices in Gitmo, and these current photos are related to prisoner abuses in Afghanistan and Iraq.
Am I mistaken?
You might be right. It's hard to keep track of which instance of torture we're talking about these days.
shryke on
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ElJeffeRoaming the streets, waving his mod gun around.Moderator, ClubPAMod Emeritus
edited May 2009
Hey hey.
That was not torture.
It was just Enhanced Hazing Techniques.
ElJeffe on
I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
I was under the impression that the CIA taking the photos was primarily in relation to interrogation practices in Gitmo, and these current photos are related to prisoner abuses in Afghanistan and Iraq.
Am I mistaken?
You might be right. It's hard to keep track of which instance of torture we're talking about these days.
Right. Just because there are some photos of US service people abusing prisoners does not mean they are the photos of US service people abusing prisoners the president is attempting to suppress.
I'm proud to be an American where at least I know I'm free. :whistle:
If there is information, it will eventually leak. Someone in the chain of custody will crack. Doing so on your own terms is preferable to "here's the big secret everyone involved has to live with." In terms of how this leaked, it far worse than us just releasing them per normal channels and running with it.
That said: what unbelievable moron PHOTOGRAPHS all this? Like, seriously, has myspace/facebook so murdered our common sense that we've decided to document everything illegal we do on a lark and just act like only people we like will ever see the information? Seriously people. If there's one thing that annoys me more than massive global coverups of human rights violations, it's INCOMPETENT massive global coverups of human rights violations.
As far as I'd heard, the CIA types were photographing it to use as proof that they were only going as far as the White House told them they could, in order to cover their own asses.
The WH told them they could hang detainees upside down and smear them with shit?
Honestly, would you be surprised?
EDIT: moniker's is better.
enlightenedbum on
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
If there is information, it will eventually leak. Someone in the chain of custody will crack. Doing so on your own terms is preferable to "here's the big secret everyone involved has to live with." In terms of how this leaked, it far worse than us just releasing them per normal channels and running with it.
That said: what unbelievable moron PHOTOGRAPHS all this? Like, seriously, has myspace/facebook so murdered our common sense that we've decided to document everything illegal we do on a lark and just act like only people we like will ever see the information? Seriously people. If there's one thing that annoys me more than massive global coverups of human rights violations, it's INCOMPETENT massive global coverups of human rights violations.
As far as I'd heard, the CIA types were photographing it to use as proof that they were only going as far as the White House told them they could, in order to cover their own asses.
The WH told them they could hang detainees upside down and smear them with shit?
Terrorists, Jeffe, they could hang terrorists upside down and smear them with shit.
The Obama whitehouse really should have seen this coming.
Fucking Super Lime.
edit: Ok, I've been SUPERPISSED about all this torture shit for a very long time. Anyone following this thread has probably come to the conclusion that I've even passed the point of reason on this issue. I don't have a problem with that. I'm a super artsy fartsy social liberal type who can get stereotypically unreasonable at times, I guess. But I just had a disconcerting thought; Could this be some kind of Karl Rove political chessgame bullshit? Paint Obama into a corner, where no move is the right move kind of crap, then beat your chest and howl like a goddamn monkey at the fucking liberal pansies? Is this the new version of the Republican game of "Feeding the Beast"?
I was listening to NPR today and they were discussing the topic of US torture, and they mentioned a third entity directly involved with these interrogations. The FBI, the CIA, and a group of independent contractors, employees of a company formed by former SERE program participants. They mentioned the name of this company, but it now escapes me. Anyone familiar?
The Obama whitehouse really should have seen this coming.
Fucking Super Lime.
edit: Ok, I've been SUPERPISSED about all this torture shit for a very long time. Anyone following this thread has probably come to the conclusion that I've even passed the point of reason on this issue. I don't have a problem with that. I'm a super artsy fartsy social liberal type who can get stereotypically unreasonable at times, I guess. But I just had a disconcerting thought; Could this be some kind of Karl Rove political chessgame bullshit? Paint Obama into a corner, where no move is the right move kind of crap, then beat your chest and howl like a goddamn monkey at the fucking liberal pansies? Is this the new version of the Republican game of "Feeding the Beast"?
That rope-a-dope stuff really doesn't happen as often as some people think. Mostly the Republicans seem to just pick and choose a reaction from a very short list and repeat over and over again as circumstances dictate. Their strategy lies in dumbing down the populace by killing safety net and educational systems, so that those limited reactions (the chest-beating and stuff like that) will always get a rise out of the majority of the country.
So no, probably no chessmaster stuff, but that doesn't mean they can't work with this mess anyway.
The amazing thing to me is the extent to which when Republicans kick the soccer ball (to borrow Jon Stewart's analogy and quoting Atrios) the press always followed. The debate inside the Beltway is all about Pelosi now. Which is fucking amazing.
By the way, I'm going to spoil it because you know, torture, but I tracked down one of the photos (the naked guy hung upside down) mentioned in that article:
It's not too surprising to me, because nearly all the corporate media in this country is owned by the same few entities and all of them profit most from Republican leadership.
The Obama whitehouse really should have seen this coming.
Fucking Super Lime.
edit: Ok, I've been SUPERPISSED about all this torture shit for a very long time. Anyone following this thread has probably come to the conclusion that I've even passed the point of reason on this issue. I don't have a problem with that. I'm a super artsy fartsy social liberal type who can get stereotypically unreasonable at times, I guess. But I just had a disconcerting thought; Could this be some kind of Karl Rove political chessgame bullshit? Paint Obama into a corner, where no move is the right move kind of crap, then beat your chest and howl like a goddamn monkey at the fucking liberal pansies? Is this the new version of the Republican game of "Feeding the Beast"?
That rope-a-dope stuff really doesn't happen as often as some people think. Mostly the Republicans seem to just pick and choose a reaction from a very short list and repeat over and over again as circumstances dictate. Their strategy lies in dumbing down the populace by killing safety net and educational systems, so that those limited reactions (the chest-beating and stuff like that) will always get a rise out of the majority of the country.
So no, probably no chessmaster stuff, but that doesn't mean they can't work with this mess anyway.
I guess so. Still the fact that the fucking chuckletards that currently call themselves Republicans are going to play this for political gains one way or another leaves me a quivering mass of Rage Flavored Jello.
What's weird is how the Republicans are jumping on Pelosi. Yeah, potentially she did some screwed up stuff too, but you guys might want to pull that plank out of your eye before you launch the all-out offensive towards everybody who knew about torture.
I am just kind of dumbfounded by their angle. Pelosi knew about torture, so that excuses you from knowing about it? Huh?
And in response to the chessmaster stuff, I somehow doubt that all of this was a Rovian Xanatos Gambit. It would have to be closer to Xanatos Roulette.
It's not too surprising to me, because nearly all the corporate media in this country is owned by the same few entities and all of them profit most from Republican leadership.
I didn't say it was surprising, I said it was amazing.
enlightenedbum on
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
Republicans hate Pelosi. I don't get that at all. Is it latent misogyny, or what?
A lot of the hate for her can be attributed to latent sexism, yes. (See also: 'Hillary Clinton') I mean, out of all of the Gang of 8 from the last congress, isn't she the only woman? I'm pretty sure she is.
tsmvengy on
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DrakeEdgelord TrashBelow the ecliptic plane.Registered Userregular
I guess it was inevitable this would end up being some kind of clusterfuck. There really was no good solution here.
And yeah, republicans pretty much hate Pelosi both because she's a woman and she's from San Francisco. There's nothing they like better than a female liberal they can project all their misogynistic bullshit onto ("BALL CUTTING BITCH! FEMINAZI LESBIAN!"). Hillary is a better example.
Duffel on
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DrakeEdgelord TrashBelow the ecliptic plane.Registered Userregular
I guess it was inevitable this would end up being some kind of clusterfuck. There really was no good solution here.
And yeah, republicans pretty much hate Pelosi both because she's a woman and she's from San Francisco. There's nothing they like better than a female liberal they can project all their misogynistic bullshit onto ("BALL CUTTING BITCH! FEMINAZI LESBIAN!"). Hillary is a better example.
Pelosi getting hammered is hilarious and sad. I see it in the "Right-Wing" posters I talk to on other boards too. They seem to have decided that a game of "Gotcha" makes their guys no longer culpable. If Pelosi did it, we weren't wrong, you were!
shryke on
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
Republicans hate Pelosi. I don't get that at all. Is it latent misogyny, or what?
Well, I've been angry at Pelosi for taking Impeachment off the table while these assholes were still in office. What the hell was up with that?
It was never politically viable until it would've been pointless anyway?
Geez, there's that politics word again. I think I hate politics. Too bad it's kind of necessary for the discourse required in a free society, I guess.
Are you being this obtuse on purpose, or do you just like shitting on political threads? "kind of necessary"? Without politics and diplomacy, we would be nowhere, and your refusal to recognize that pragmatism is required to temper idealism into something workable is now beyond irritating.
I came into this thread late in the game completely expecting to see everyone defending Pelosi and calling it all sexism. Glad to see I got what I came for.
Pelosi is leading the charge to continue demonizing the Bush Administration, even when Obama and others might rather just take the election that was so handily won and get to work. She is a poster child for polarization, already criticized for taking completely unnecessary jabs and finger-pointing at Republicans. So when it comes out that she was right there along with them, privvy to the same information... I don't think anyone is claiming that this means Republicans are suddenly off the hook. It just means that maybe Pelosi is making herself the prime example of someone doing more harm than good, and throwing too many stones in a glass house.
Posts
The people who will call him "soft on terror" will do so regardless. Because he's a Democrat Socialist Liberal.
I think, for the purposes of handling this issue, the perceptions of those outside the US are more important than the perceptions of those inside. And the perceptions of those outside the US are now pretty compromised.
End of the world? No. But this could've been handled better.
I don't agree. His ability to play to the locals is what will get him the political gains he wants.
Pretty much. "Punishing criminals" and "Progress" are going to be at odds for a long time with this administration.
That said: what unbelievable moron PHOTOGRAPHS all this? Like, seriously, has myspace/facebook so murdered our common sense that we've decided to document everything illegal we do on a lark and just act like only people we like will ever see the information? Seriously people. If there's one thing that annoys me more than massive global coverups of human rights violations, it's INCOMPETENT massive global coverups of human rights violations.
As far as I'd heard, the CIA types were photographing it to use as proof that they were only going as far as the White House told them they could, in order to cover their own asses.
Shhhhh. I'd rather crimes be done incompetently.
This stuff was never meant to go beyond Cheney's personal scat/snuff/torture porn collection. It's what he likes to do after shooting friends in the face or eating babies or something. JESUS! GrRRaarrHUURRGAAAaarrrrRRRAAAArrrR doesn't even come fucking close.
The WH told them they could hang detainees upside down and smear them with shit?
That doesn't hold with what some of the photos are. Like, I can see that in a lot of instances, but some are the wardens/interrogators/whatever POSING with their victim. It's sick, and gives the impression it's a vanity photo. Look ma, I can commit war crimes! Documenting things to cover your ass is totally understandable. Documenting horrible things because they're totally bitching? That should be extra jailtime for stupid.
Well, a little of both I guess.
Am I mistaken?
You might be right. It's hard to keep track of which instance of torture we're talking about these days.
That was not torture.
It was just Enhanced Hazing Techniques.
Right. Just because there are some photos of US service people abusing prisoners does not mean they are the photos of US service people abusing prisoners the president is attempting to suppress.
I'm proud to be an American where at least I know I'm free. :whistle:
The Obama whitehouse really should have seen this coming.
Honestly, would you be surprised?
EDIT: moniker's is better.
Terrorists, Jeffe, they could hang terrorists upside down and smear them with shit.
QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
Fucking Super Lime.
edit: Ok, I've been SUPERPISSED about all this torture shit for a very long time. Anyone following this thread has probably come to the conclusion that I've even passed the point of reason on this issue. I don't have a problem with that. I'm a super artsy fartsy social liberal type who can get stereotypically unreasonable at times, I guess. But I just had a disconcerting thought; Could this be some kind of Karl Rove political chessgame bullshit? Paint Obama into a corner, where no move is the right move kind of crap, then beat your chest and howl like a goddamn monkey at the fucking liberal pansies? Is this the new version of the Republican game of "Feeding the Beast"?
Gold. I don't think it will really hurt him inside the USA, but it will hurt the USA's image.
NintendoID: Nailbunny 3DS: 3909-8796-4685
That rope-a-dope stuff really doesn't happen as often as some people think. Mostly the Republicans seem to just pick and choose a reaction from a very short list and repeat over and over again as circumstances dictate. Their strategy lies in dumbing down the populace by killing safety net and educational systems, so that those limited reactions (the chest-beating and stuff like that) will always get a rise out of the majority of the country.
So no, probably no chessmaster stuff, but that doesn't mean they can't work with this mess anyway.
By the way, I'm going to spoil it because you know, torture, but I tracked down one of the photos (the naked guy hung upside down) mentioned in that article:
I'm so fucking proud to be an American.
mod edit: Spoilered images still cache, doofus.
I guess so. Still the fact that the fucking chuckletards that currently call themselves Republicans are going to play this for political gains one way or another leaves me a quivering mass of Rage Flavored Jello.
I am just kind of dumbfounded by their angle. Pelosi knew about torture, so that excuses you from knowing about it? Huh?
And in response to the chessmaster stuff, I somehow doubt that all of this was a Rovian Xanatos Gambit. It would have to be closer to Xanatos Roulette.
Cheney's the one who scares me the man is a force of pure malevolence
They've spent 20 years demonizing San Francisco so when the Speaker is a liberal from San Francisco, they believe their own hype.
I didn't say it was surprising, I said it was amazing.
A lot of the hate for her can be attributed to latent sexism, yes. (See also: 'Hillary Clinton') I mean, out of all of the Gang of 8 from the last congress, isn't she the only woman? I'm pretty sure she is.
Well, I've been angry at Pelosi for taking Impeachment off the table while these assholes were still in office. What the hell was up with that?
Also, in before the "that's not torture, that's friday night in a dorm!" posts.
It was never politically viable until it would've been pointless anyway?
Geez, there's that politics word again. I think I hate politics. Too bad it's kind of necessary for the discourse required in a free society, I guess.
And yeah, republicans pretty much hate Pelosi both because she's a woman and she's from San Francisco. There's nothing they like better than a female liberal they can project all their misogynistic bullshit onto ("BALL CUTTING BITCH! FEMINAZI LESBIAN!"). Hillary is a better example.
Don't forget baby killer.
Pelosi is leading the charge to continue demonizing the Bush Administration, even when Obama and others might rather just take the election that was so handily won and get to work. She is a poster child for polarization, already criticized for taking completely unnecessary jabs and finger-pointing at Republicans. So when it comes out that she was right there along with them, privvy to the same information... I don't think anyone is claiming that this means Republicans are suddenly off the hook. It just means that maybe Pelosi is making herself the prime example of someone doing more harm than good, and throwing too many stones in a glass house.