Hahahaha, that's incredibly naive. The GOP is going to do what the GOP does no matter what. And they're going to fail at it, unless there's another 9/11 level attack, regardless of anything else that happens.
Of course their going to attack. The question is, are you gonna help them by giving them ammunition against you?
Hahahaha, that's incredibly naive. The GOP is going to do what the GOP does no matter what. And they're going to fail at it, unless there's another 9/11 level attack, regardless of anything else that happens.
Of course their going to attack. The question is, are you gonna help them by giving them ammunition against you?
No one cares, is my point, unless there's another attack. It's a party without credibility with the American people. Thus, intentionally punching your base in the mouth and making another attack more likely is not a good policy decision.
enlightenedbum on
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
0
Options
No-QuarterNothing To FearBut Fear ItselfRegistered Userregular
edited May 2009
But the point I was trying to make still stands. Obama had to have known how this would look. Yet he did it anyway. Obama is not a fool. Therefore there must be a reason that is hidden from us.
Also: Thanks for hacking through that verbiage Shryke.
And I'm sick of the Obama is always pure and good meme. He's covering shit up because the guy he just appointed to oversee Afghanistan is effective, but a gigantic fucking war criminal.
enlightenedbum on
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
Hahahaha, that's incredibly naive. The GOP is going to do what the GOP does no matter what. And they're going to fail at it, unless there's another 9/11 level attack, regardless of anything else that happens.
Of course their going to attack. The question is, are you gonna help them by giving them ammunition against you?
They already have ammunition, and it was just bolstered by his decision not to release the photographs; not weakened. He basically validated their bullshit claim that declassifying torture related documentation 'hurts the troops' and now they can point to it for any subsequent decision that they don't like.
Their are GOP supporters vehemently defending torture right now.
It's sad. And scary. But true.
Torture is, unfortunately, not seen as "universally bad", despite what we'd all like to think.
So is dropping bombs. EIT is a lesser evil against those who are extremely evil.
Point the first: it's torture.
Point the second: we tortured innocents too.
Point the third: we weren't torturing to prevent attacks, we were torturing to justify the invasion of Iraq.
enlightenedbum on
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
Their are GOP supporters vehemently defending torture right now.
It's sad. And scary. But true.
Torture is, unfortunately, not seen as "universally bad", despite what we'd all like to think.
So is dropping bombs. EIT is a lesser evil against those who are extremely evil.
Except that dropping bombs isn't universally bad, while torture is. Particularly given the requirements you have to meet in order to even be capable of torturing someone in the first place.
Their are GOP supporters vehemently defending torture right now.
It's sad. And scary. But true.
Torture is, unfortunately, not seen as "universally bad", despite what we'd all like to think.
So is dropping bombs. EIT is a lesser evil against those who are extremely evil.
Point the first: it's torture.
Point the second: we tortured innocents too.
Point the third: we weren't torturing to prevent attacks, we were torturing to justify the invasion of Iraq.
Citation on the second point please, official is preferred.
And I'm sick of the Obama is always pure and good meme. He's covering shit up because the guy he just appointed to oversee Afghanistan is effective, but a gigantic fucking war criminal.
Didn't he announce the two at almost the same time? I seriously doubt he changed his mind on the photos in that short a time.
Their are GOP supporters vehemently defending torture right now.
It's sad. And scary. But true.
Torture is, unfortunately, not seen as "universally bad", despite what we'd all like to think.
So is dropping bombs. EIT is a lesser evil against those who are extremely evil.
Point the first: it's torture.
Point the second: we tortured innocents too.
Point the third: we weren't torturing to prevent attacks, we were torturing to justify the invasion of Iraq.
Citation on the second point please, official is preferred.
Here's the most famous one. Or at least we sure as hell can't prove he did anything illegal as he was transferred to British custody and released. And now he's suing the fuck out of everyone.
enlightenedbum on
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
Their are GOP supporters vehemently defending torture right now.
It's sad. And scary. But true.
Torture is, unfortunately, not seen as "universally bad", despite what we'd all like to think.
So is dropping bombs. EIT is a lesser evil against those who are extremely evil.
Point the first: it's torture.
Point the second: we tortured innocents too.
Point the third: we weren't torturing to prevent attacks, we were torturing to justify the invasion of Iraq.
Citation on the second point please, official is preferred.
Have you proven them guilty? You see, in places that respect the rule of law and basic human rights, the legal system is one of innocent until proven guilty. Besides that, there are at least ten or so people currently suing the government for having them tortured (mainly through extraordinary rendition) and then releasing them without so much as an apology.
And I'm sick of the Obama is always pure and good meme. He's covering shit up because the guy he just appointed to oversee Afghanistan is effective, but a gigantic fucking war criminal.
Didn't he announce the two at almost the same time? I seriously doubt he changed his mind on the photos in that short a time.
He had previously been committed to releasing them. And replacing the commander of the war that is at the forefront of your foreign policy was presumably not a snap decision either.
enlightenedbum on
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
0
Options
TL DRNot at all confident in his reflexive opinions of thingsRegistered Userregular
edited May 2009
So wait, were the pictures that Obama was withholding just leaked, or are these the ones from a few years ago...? I can't find diddly online. If linking to the pictures themselves is verboten, a PM is fine.
TL DR on
0
Options
DrakeEdgelord TrashBelow the ecliptic plane.Registered Userregular
Their are GOP supporters vehemently defending torture right now.
It's sad. And scary. But true.
Torture is, unfortunately, not seen as "universally bad", despite what we'd all like to think.
So is dropping bombs. EIT is a lesser evil against those who are extremely evil.
International law and national law concedes that warfare is a legitimate last resort when all other policy measures between two nations fail. It's the final contest of wills between irreconcilable viewpoints.
Torture is an abuse of human dignity, perpetrated by the powerful against the helpless, denounced both in our nation and in international law. As has been pointed out several times in this thread, it was Reagan who officially made it part of our legal framework. Are we a nation of laws or are we not?
So wait, were the pictures that Obama was withholding just leaked, or are these the ones from a few years ago...? I can't find diddly online. If linking to the pictures themselves is verboten, a PM is fine.
There were 21 pictures of torture from Iraq and maybe Afghanistan that the ACLU had sued to get released under FOIA. An Australian news service acquired a group of pictures of torture from Iraq and Afghanistan in the same time period. It is unconfirmed whether or not any of them are the same pictures the President has blocked the release of. The only one I've seen is a guy stripped naked and hung upside down from a bunk bed. You can find that here, along with description of other photos, but not the photos themselves.
enlightenedbum on
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
Their are GOP supporters vehemently defending torture right now.
It's sad. And scary. But true.
Torture is, unfortunately, not seen as "universally bad", despite what we'd all like to think.
So is dropping bombs. EIT is a lesser evil against those who are extremely evil.
Point the first: it's torture.
Point the second: we tortured innocents too.
Point the third: we weren't torturing to prevent attacks, we were torturing to justify the invasion of Iraq.
Citation on the second point please, official is preferred.
I don't suppose you consider the New York Times to be very official.
Hahahaha, that's incredibly naive. The GOP is going to do what the GOP does no matter what. And they're going to fail at it, unless there's another 9/11 level attack, regardless of anything else that happens.
Of course their going to attack. The question is, are you gonna help them by giving them ammunition against you?
No one cares, is my point, unless there's another attack. It's a party without credibility with the American people. Thus, intentionally punching your base in the mouth and making another attack more likely is not a good policy decision.
Now THAT'S naive.
shryke on
0
Options
No-QuarterNothing To FearBut Fear ItselfRegistered Userregular
Their are GOP supporters vehemently defending torture right now.
It's sad. And scary. But true.
Torture is, unfortunately, not seen as "universally bad", despite what we'd all like to think.
So is dropping bombs. EIT is a lesser evil against those who are extremely evil.
International law and national law concedes that warfare is a legitimate last resort when all other policy measures between two nations fail. It's the final contest of wills between irreconcilable viewpoints.
Torture is an abuse of human dignity, perpetrated by the powerful against the helpless, denounced both in our nation and in international law. As has been pointed out several times in this thread, it was Reagan who officially made it part of our legal framework. Are we a nation of laws or are we not?
Cite? I believe you but I want a bookmark to throw at people.
Their are GOP supporters vehemently defending torture right now.
It's sad. And scary. But true.
Torture is, unfortunately, not seen as "universally bad", despite what we'd all like to think.
So is dropping bombs. EIT is a lesser evil against those who are extremely evil.
But we declared a war on evil, didn't we?
I thought that ruled out ALL evil.
We tried executed Japanese men who had waterboarded our soldiers during WWII. There is NO justification, whatsoever, for us to turn around and waterboard.
And I'm sick of the Obama is always pure and good meme. He's covering shit up because the guy he just appointed to oversee Afghanistan is effective, but a gigantic fucking war criminal.
Didn't he announce the two at almost the same time? I seriously doubt he changed his mind on the photos in that short a time.
He had previously been committed to releasing them. And replacing the commander of the war that is at the forefront of your foreign policy was presumably not a snap decision either.
The general could probably have been switched with another former spec ops commander with nobody noticing the difference (old white guys with military haircuts all look alike, so you could just switch the name tags).
I'm still going under the assumption that Obama simply respects Gates enough to defer to him on this matter, or at least give him the benefit of the doubt when he has every other commander backing him up.
Their are GOP supporters vehemently defending torture right now.
It's sad. And scary. But true.
Torture is, unfortunately, not seen as "universally bad", despite what we'd all like to think.
So is dropping bombs. EIT is a lesser evil against those who are extremely evil.
Point the first: it's torture.
Point the second: we tortured innocents too.
Point the third: we weren't torturing to prevent attacks, we were torturing to justify the invasion of Iraq.
Citation on the second point please, official is preferred.
Here's the most famous one. Or at least we sure as hell can't prove he did anything illegal as he was transferred to British custody and released. And now he's suing the fuck out of everyone.
Plus those Canadians. And like Scalfin said, we haven't proved anyone guilty in Gitmo as of yet in the first place. So...
Hahahaha, that's incredibly naive. The GOP is going to do what the GOP does no matter what. And they're going to fail at it, unless there's another 9/11 level attack, regardless of anything else that happens.
Of course their going to attack. The question is, are you gonna help them by giving them ammunition against you?
No one cares, is my point, unless there's another attack. It's a party without credibility with the American people. Thus, intentionally punching your base in the mouth and making another attack more likely is not a good policy decision.
Now THAT'S naive.
The Republican Party scores at 20% favorable. Congressional Republicans score 13. Boehner gets 15. McConnell leads with a whopping 22.
enlightenedbum on
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
Their are GOP supporters vehemently defending torture right now.
It's sad. And scary. But true.
Torture is, unfortunately, not seen as "universally bad", despite what we'd all like to think.
So is dropping bombs. EIT is a lesser evil against those who are extremely evil.
International law and national law concedes that warfare is a legitimate last resort when all other policy measures between two nations fail. It's the final contest of wills between irreconcilable viewpoints.
Torture is an abuse of human dignity, perpetrated by the powerful against the helpless, denounced both in our nation and in international law. As has been pointed out several times in this thread, it was Reagan who officially made it part of our legal framework. Are we a nation of laws or are we not?
Cite? I believe you but I want a bookmark to throw at people.
The United States participated actively and effectively in the negotiation of the Convention . It marks a significant step in the development during this century of international measures against torture and other inhuman treatment or punishment. Ratification of the Convention by the United States will clearly express United States opposition to torture, an abhorrent practice unfortunately still prevalent in the world today.
The core provisions of the Convention establish a regime for international cooperation in the criminal prosecution of torturers relying on so-called "universal jurisdiction." Each State Party is required either to prosecute torturers who are found in its territory or to extradite them to other countries for prosecution.
enlightenedbum on
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
So wait, were the pictures that Obama was withholding just leaked, or are these the ones from a few years ago...? I can't find diddly online. If linking to the pictures themselves is verboten, a PM is fine.
There were 21 pictures of torture from Iraq and maybe Afghanistan that the ACLU had sued to get released under FOIA. An Australian news service acquired a group of pictures of torture from Iraq and Afghanistan in the same time period. It is unconfirmed whether or not any of them are the same pictures the President has blocked the release of. The only one I've seen is a guy stripped naked and hung upside down from a bunk bed. You can find that here, along with description of other photos, but not the photos themselves.
Wow. If that bar is any indication, he really was hung.
Their are GOP supporters vehemently defending torture right now.
It's sad. And scary. But true.
Torture is, unfortunately, not seen as "universally bad", despite what we'd all like to think.
So is dropping bombs. EIT is a lesser evil against those who are extremely evil.
International law and national law concedes that warfare is a legitimate last resort when all other policy measures between two nations fail. It's the final contest of wills between irreconcilable viewpoints.
Torture is an abuse of human dignity, perpetrated by the powerful against the helpless, denounced both in our nation and in international law. As has been pointed out several times in this thread, it was Reagan who officially made it part of our legal framework. Are we a nation of laws or are we not?
Cite? I believe you but I want a bookmark to throw at people.
Hahahaha, that's incredibly naive. The GOP is going to do what the GOP does no matter what. And they're going to fail at it, unless there's another 9/11 level attack, regardless of anything else that happens.
Of course their going to attack. The question is, are you gonna help them by giving them ammunition against you?
No one cares, is my point, unless there's another attack. It's a party without credibility with the American people. Thus, intentionally punching your base in the mouth and making another attack more likely is not a good policy decision.
Now THAT'S naive.
The Republican Party scores at 20% favorable. Congressional Republicans score 13. Boehner gets 15. McConnell leads with a whopping 22.
See how that goes once you start pushing to prosecute people.
shryke on
0
Options
DrakeEdgelord TrashBelow the ecliptic plane.Registered Userregular
Their are GOP supporters vehemently defending torture right now.
It's sad. And scary. But true.
Torture is, unfortunately, not seen as "universally bad", despite what we'd all like to think.
So is dropping bombs. EIT is a lesser evil against those who are extremely evil.
International law and national law concedes that warfare is a legitimate last resort when all other policy measures between two nations fail. It's the final contest of wills between irreconcilable viewpoints.
Torture is an abuse of human dignity, perpetrated by the powerful against the helpless, denounced both in our nation and in international law. As has been pointed out several times in this thread, it was Reagan who officially made it part of our legal framework. Are we a nation of laws or are we not?
Cite? I believe you but I want a bookmark to throw at people.
"The United States participated actively and effectively in the negotiation of the Convention. It marks a significant step in the development during this century of international measures against torture and other inhuman treatment or punishment. Ratification of the Convention by the United States will clearly express United States opposition to torture, an abhorrent practice unfortunately still prevalent in the world today.
The core provisions of the Convention establish a regime for international cooperation in the criminal prosecution of torturers relying on so-called 'universal jurisdiction.' Each State Party is required either to prosecute torturers who are found in its territory or to extradite them to other countries for prosecution."
And here is Article 1 and 2 from the Convention against torture;
Article 1.
1. For the purposes of this Convention, torture means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.
2. This article is without prejudice to any international instrument or national legislation which does or may contain provisions of wider application.
Article 2.
1. Each State Party shall take effective legislative, administrative, judicial or other measures to prevent acts of torture in any territory under its jurisdiction.
2. No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat or war, internal political instability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture.
3. An order from a superior officer or a public authority may not be invoked as a justification of torture.
That would make Republicans more popular...how? I can buy it making Obama (and the Dems) less popular. But suddenly everyone forgets the clustefuck that was 2001-2008 because...we're prosecuting the people responsible for the clusterfuck for hanging people upside down naked and smearing shit all over them and then making them think they're going to drown?
I don't see it.
enlightenedbum on
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
Hahahaha, that's incredibly naive. The GOP is going to do what the GOP does no matter what. And they're going to fail at it, unless there's another 9/11 level attack, regardless of anything else that happens.
Of course their going to attack. The question is, are you gonna help them by giving them ammunition against you?
No one cares, is my point, unless there's another attack. It's a party without credibility with the American people. Thus, intentionally punching your base in the mouth and making another attack more likely is not a good policy decision.
Now THAT'S naive.
The Republican Party scores at 20% favorable. Congressional Republicans score 13. Boehner gets 15. McConnell leads with a whopping 22.
See how that goes once you start pushing to prosecute people.
A plurality wants some sort of investigation, so provided they go truth commission and not prosecution it would be a political boon. If the latter, they'd probably still have close to majority support provided Patrick 'Elliot Fucking Ness' Fitzgerald is appointed independent prosecutor.
That would make Republicans more popular...how? I can buy it making Obama (and the Dems) less popular. But suddenly everyone forgets the clustefuck that was 2001-2008 because...we're prosecuting the people responsible for the clusterfuck for hanging people upside down naked and smearing shit all over them and then making them think they're going to drown?
I don't see it.
The GOP will grind the government to a halt and blame it on Obama's "Witch Hunt".
We've already spent like 20 pages on this in this thread a week or so ago.
Any opening Obama gives them will lead to the situation you see right now with Pelosi. So when the question becomes "Who do I care about more, the International Community or my own Countrymen?" he's gonna go with his own countryman because those are the guys who will make his life hell while he tries to do his thing.
Does anybody remember which one of the memos it was that outright said we were criticizing other nations for using the same exact methods described in the memos?
That would make Republicans more popular...how? I can buy it making Obama (and the Dems) less popular. But suddenly everyone forgets the clustefuck that was 2001-2008 because...we're prosecuting the people responsible for the clusterfuck for hanging people upside down naked and smearing shit all over them and then making them think they're going to drown?
I don't see it.
The GOP will grind the government to a halt and blame it on Obama's "Witch Hunt".
We've already spent like 20 pages on this in this thread a week or so ago.
They've already started that when he was elected, dropped all pretense when the memos were released, and are threatening to do it if any Democrat points out that sessions is a racist or sneezes. This is as close to a halt as they can get.
That would make Republicans more popular...how? I can buy it making Obama (and the Dems) less popular. But suddenly everyone forgets the clustefuck that was 2001-2008 because...we're prosecuting the people responsible for the clusterfuck for hanging people upside down naked and smearing shit all over them and then making them think they're going to drown?
I don't see it.
The GOP will grind the government to a halt and blame it on Obama's "Witch Hunt".
We've already spent like 20 pages on this in this thread a week or so ago.
Any opening Obama gives them will lead to the situation you see right now with Pelosi. So when the question becomes "Who do I care about more, the International Community or my own Countrymen?" he's gonna go with his own countryman because those are the guys who will make his life hell while he tries to do his thing.
The situation right now where major environmental/energy legislation is making its way to the floor with a very good likelihood of passing? That situation?
Posts
Of course their going to attack. The question is, are you gonna help them by giving them ammunition against you?
No one cares, is my point, unless there's another attack. It's a party without credibility with the American people. Thus, intentionally punching your base in the mouth and making another attack more likely is not a good policy decision.
Also: Thanks for hacking through that verbiage Shryke.
They already have ammunition, and it was just bolstered by his decision not to release the photographs; not weakened. He basically validated their bullshit claim that declassifying torture related documentation 'hurts the troops' and now they can point to it for any subsequent decision that they don't like.
So is dropping bombs. EIT is a lesser evil against those who are extremely evil.
Point the first: it's torture.
Point the second: we tortured innocents too.
Point the third: we weren't torturing to prevent attacks, we were torturing to justify the invasion of Iraq.
Except that dropping bombs isn't universally bad, while torture is. Particularly given the requirements you have to meet in order to even be capable of torturing someone in the first place.
Citation on the second point please, official is preferred.
Didn't he announce the two at almost the same time? I seriously doubt he changed his mind on the photos in that short a time.
Obvious war crimes are never a lesser evil.
Here's the most famous one. Or at least we sure as hell can't prove he did anything illegal as he was transferred to British custody and released. And now he's suing the fuck out of everyone.
Have you proven them guilty? You see, in places that respect the rule of law and basic human rights, the legal system is one of innocent until proven guilty. Besides that, there are at least ten or so people currently suing the government for having them tortured (mainly through extraordinary rendition) and then releasing them without so much as an apology.
He had previously been committed to releasing them. And replacing the commander of the war that is at the forefront of your foreign policy was presumably not a snap decision either.
International law and national law concedes that warfare is a legitimate last resort when all other policy measures between two nations fail. It's the final contest of wills between irreconcilable viewpoints.
Torture is an abuse of human dignity, perpetrated by the powerful against the helpless, denounced both in our nation and in international law. As has been pointed out several times in this thread, it was Reagan who officially made it part of our legal framework. Are we a nation of laws or are we not?
There were 21 pictures of torture from Iraq and maybe Afghanistan that the ACLU had sued to get released under FOIA. An Australian news service acquired a group of pictures of torture from Iraq and Afghanistan in the same time period. It is unconfirmed whether or not any of them are the same pictures the President has blocked the release of. The only one I've seen is a guy stripped naked and hung upside down from a bunk bed. You can find that here, along with description of other photos, but not the photos themselves.
I don't suppose you consider the New York Times to be very official.
Now THAT'S naive.
Cite? I believe you but I want a bookmark to throw at people.
But we declared a war on evil, didn't we?
I thought that ruled out ALL evil.
We tried executed Japanese men who had waterboarded our soldiers during WWII. There is NO justification, whatsoever, for us to turn around and waterboard.
The general could probably have been switched with another former spec ops commander with nobody noticing the difference (old white guys with military haircuts all look alike, so you could just switch the name tags).
I'm still going under the assumption that Obama simply respects Gates enough to defer to him on this matter, or at least give him the benefit of the doubt when he has every other commander backing him up.
Plus those Canadians. And like Scalfin said, we haven't proved anyone guilty in Gitmo as of yet in the first place. So...
The Republican Party scores at 20% favorable. Congressional Republicans score 13. Boehner gets 15. McConnell leads with a whopping 22.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1079/is_n2137_v88/ai_6742034/
Wow. If that bar is any indication, he really was hung.
Ba-dum chi.
1988
See how that goes once you start pushing to prosecute people.
Here you go.
And here is Article 1 and 2 from the Convention against torture;
Pretty cut and dried stuff, there.
I don't see it.
A plurality wants some sort of investigation, so provided they go truth commission and not prosecution it would be a political boon. If the latter, they'd probably still have close to majority support provided Patrick 'Elliot Fucking Ness' Fitzgerald is appointed independent prosecutor.
The GOP will grind the government to a halt and blame it on Obama's "Witch Hunt".
We've already spent like 20 pages on this in this thread a week or so ago.
Any opening Obama gives them will lead to the situation you see right now with Pelosi. So when the question becomes "Who do I care about more, the International Community or my own Countrymen?" he's gonna go with his own countryman because those are the guys who will make his life hell while he tries to do his thing.
Also:
The message war will change those percentages.
They've already started that when he was elected, dropped all pretense when the memos were released, and are threatening to do it if any Democrat points out that sessions is a racist or sneezes. This is as close to a halt as they can get.
The situation right now where major environmental/energy legislation is making its way to the floor with a very good likelihood of passing? That situation?