Pelosi getting hammered is hilarious and sad. I see it in the "Right-Wing" posters I talk to on other boards too. They seem to have decided that a game of "Gotcha" makes their guys no longer culpable. If Pelosi did it, we weren't wrong, you were!
The saddest thing is that this is probably the only way we'll get bipartisan support for a truth commission. Because premeditated torture programs are only reprehensible and worthy of investigation when you can blame it on people you already hate.
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
I came into this thread late in the game completely expecting to see everyone defending Pelosi and calling it all sexism. Glad to see I got what I came for.
Pelosi is leading the charge to continue demonizing the Bush Administration, even when Obama and others might rather just take the election that was so handily won and get to work. She is a poster child for polarization, already criticized for taking completely unnecessary jabs and finger-pointing at Republicans. So when it comes out that she was right there along with them, privvy to the same information... I don't think anyone is claiming that this means Republicans are suddenly off the hook. It just means that maybe Pelosi is making herself the prime example of someone doing more harm than good, and throwing too many stones in a glass house.
Pelosi wasn't leading the charge for anything. She was trying to get Obama's shit run through and passed. The the torture thing came out and everything got fucked. This game of gotcha is fucking ridiculous, and I want it to go away. And the Bush administration deserves to be demonized and how the fuck is Pelosi in a glass house?
It's not that Pelosi is necessarily innocent. It's that the pubs are pretending the Pelosi being in some way culpable washes their hands of the whole mess, which is obviously wrong.
And if you don't think sexism has something to do with the way a lot of the pubs view and treat women like Pelosi and Hillary I don't know what planet you're on. When I was a kid in a strongly pub area during the Clinton years you wouldn't believe the vitriol I heard and saw directed toward Hillary. They hated her like you don't even know. Her sexuality, womanhood, decency as a human being, even status as a human being was constantly being called into question, insulted and derided.
That's just the shit I noticed when I was a kid. I'm sure if I'd been old enough to actually know what the fuck I would have noticed a lot more.
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DrakeEdgelord TrashBelow the ecliptic plane.Registered Userregular
Republicans hate Pelosi. I don't get that at all. Is it latent misogyny, or what?
Well, I've been angry at Pelosi for taking Impeachment off the table while these assholes were still in office. What the hell was up with that?
It was never politically viable until it would've been pointless anyway?
Geez, there's that politics word again. I think I hate politics. Too bad it's kind of necessary for the discourse required in a free society, I guess.
Are you being this obtuse on purpose, or do you just like shitting on political threads? "kind of necessary"? Without politics and diplomacy, we would be nowhere, and your refusal to recognize that pragmatism is required to temper idealism into something workable is now beyond irritating.
Over react much? I'm actually agreeing here, but also trying to show how reluctant I am in coming to these conclusions. Yeah, I love me some idealism, it's hard for me to let go of it or temper it. It's a personal defect after a certain point, and I admit it. Fuck man, I'm working at it.
I came into this thread late in the game completely expecting to see everyone defending Pelosi and calling it all sexism. Glad to see I got what I came for.
I didn't think there was much Pelosi defense. She does get a lot of hate for being Pelosi (she was getting mauled when she became speaker, and ever since)
But if she's actually in the know and lying about it? I hope she goes down. If she's telling the truth and the CIA briefings were less than forthcoming? They should go down. I'm pretty equal opportunity here: anyone involved in this program should be fair game. No forming ranks around political parties and trying to make this an us versus them shitfest. It's a pro vs anti torture thing. If you advocated, approved, assisted or commited torture, you should be involved in the investigation.
I came into this thread late in the game completely expecting to see everyone defending Pelosi and calling it all sexism. Glad to see I got what I came for.
Pelosi is leading the charge to continue demonizing the Bush Administration, even when Obama and others might rather just take the election that was so handily won and get to work. She is a poster child for polarization, already criticized for taking completely unnecessary jabs and finger-pointing at Republicans. So when it comes out that she was right there along with them, privvy to the same information... I don't think anyone is claiming that this means Republicans are suddenly off the hook. It just means that maybe Pelosi is making herself the prime example of someone doing more harm than good, and throwing too many stones in a glass house.
I just find it interesting that Harry Reid isn't getting attacked by the right with the same vigor considering he was also part of the Gang of 8. The narrative shift just seems rather odd. Particularly with a few of the bombshells that have been coming out on the topic.
I came into this thread late in the game completely expecting to see everyone defending Pelosi and calling it all sexism. Glad to see I got what I came for.
Pelosi is leading the charge to continue demonizing the Bush Administration, even when Obama and others might rather just take the election that was so handily won and get to work. She is a poster child for polarization, already criticized for taking completely unnecessary jabs and finger-pointing at Republicans. So when it comes out that she was right there along with them, privvy to the same information... I don't think anyone is claiming that this means Republicans are suddenly off the hook. It just means that maybe Pelosi is making herself the prime example of someone doing more harm than good, and throwing too many stones in a glass house.
I just find it interesting that Harry Reid isn't getting attacked by the right with the same vigor considering he was also part of the Gang of 8. The narrative shift just seems rather odd. Particularly with a few of the bombshells that have been coming out on the topic.
Why on earth would the Republicans want anything to happen to Harry Reid? He's their best man in the Senate.
Also, if you'll note, she's calling for a damn Truth Commission, which means she's pretty confident she's right or is willing to go down with the ship to get the rest of the Bush Administration. Which is more likely?
enlightenedbum on
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
I came into this thread late in the game completely expecting to see everyone defending Pelosi and calling it all sexism. Glad to see I got what I came for.
I didn't think there was much Pelosi defense. She does get a lot of hate for being Pelosi (she was getting mauled when she became speaker, and ever since)
But if she's actually in the know and lying about it? I hope she goes down. If she's telling the truth and the CIA briefings were less than forthcoming? They should go down. I'm pretty equal opportunity here: anyone involved in this program should be fair game. No forming ranks around political parties and trying to make this an us versus them shitfest. It's a pro vs anti torture thing. If you advocated, approved, assisted or commited torture, you should be involved in the investigation.
Your so cute when your naive.
The lines are already being drawn.
Shit, you can't even avoid it by making it "Pro-torture vs Anti-Torture" because there's right-wing types coming down PRO-TORTURE because it "saves American Lives" or some shit. I'm not kidding.
No matter what happens, any prosecution of this is gonna turn into one huge gigantic partisan shitstorm.
It's going to be a partisan shitstorm, I'm just saying from my comfort level? I don't care if your name has D or R next to it. If you come down on the pro-torture side, you come down on the anti-law side and the law should come down on you for it.
If Pelosi was involved in this shit? Bye Pelosi. I'm not going to defend her because her party ID happens to match mine this year.
Also, if you'll note, she's calling for a damn Truth Commission, which means she's pretty confident she's right or is willing to go down with the ship to get the rest of the Bush Administration. Which is more likely?
She's also calling or the actual briefings to be released by the CIA.
Absolute worst case scenario: Pelosi knew the whole time, was legally prohibited from revealing this information, either condoned it or didn't stop it and then worked hard to remove the Bush Administration while speaking against such practices that had been revealed to the public.
The entire sin of the above is intrinsically linked to the malfeasance of the previous Administration. For every X of bad that is, there is a much bigger Y of bad the Bush Administration did. If it wasn't torture, she played politics. If it was torture, then she didn't commit a felony in order to try to stop it and played politics.
If on the other hand the much better supported idea that she was told they might torture but hadn't actually yet, had no legal power to stop or reveal these actions and honestly did oppose the practices, then the CIA lied again to Congress.
Either way, Pelosi's actions are minuscule compared to the previous Administration's!
But if she's actually in the know and lying about it? I hope she goes down. If she's telling the truth and the CIA briefings were less than forthcoming? They should go down. I'm pretty equal opportunity here: anyone involved in this program should be fair game. No forming ranks around political parties and trying to make this an us versus them shitfest. It's a pro vs anti torture thing. If you advocated, approved, assisted or commited torture, you should be involved in the investigation.
But 1) she's one strongly promoting this issue, particularly from a political/grandstanding angle. So there's a little room for specialized criticism here, and 2) the CIA people you're talking about are some of Obama's top people. Obama's CIA Director is one of the ones calling Pelosi a liar. Again, my point being that she is working her own political angle here that has sproven to be at odds with key figures in both parties. I don't think it's because they are all misogynists.
It's going to be a partisan shitstorm, I'm just saying from my comfort level? I don't care if your name has D or R next to it. If you come down on the pro-torture side, you come down on the anti-law side and the law should come down on you for it.
If Pelosi was involved in this shit? Bye Pelosi. I'm not going to defend her because her party ID happens to match mine this year.
Agreed on that. But I have little faith anything will come of this.
Yar:
You have a very weird idea of what people are complaining about.
People aren't saying "These criticisms of Pelosi are sexist".
They are saying "The GOP has always had a major Hate-on for Pelosi and they are using this opportunity to push it into full gear."
But if she's actually in the know and lying about it? I hope she goes down. If she's telling the truth and the CIA briefings were less than forthcoming? They should go down. I'm pretty equal opportunity here: anyone involved in this program should be fair game. No forming ranks around political parties and trying to make this an us versus them shitfest. It's a pro vs anti torture thing. If you advocated, approved, assisted or commited torture, you should be involved in the investigation.
But 1) she's one strongly promoting this issue, particularly from a political/grandstanding angle. So there's a little room for specialized criticism here, and 2) the CIA people you're talking about are some of Obama's top people. Obama's CIA Director is one of the ones calling Pelosi a liar. Again, my point being that she is working her own political angle here that has sproven to be at odds with key figures in both parties. I don't think it's because they are all misogynists.
Leon Panetta is now a key Democrat? I'm pretty sure he's not even a Democrat. He also wasn't even with the CIA in 2002 and despite his letter today the CIA isn't even willing to stand by their own report ("best recollection" and "Ultimately, it is up to Congress to evaluate all the evidence and reach its own conclusions about what happened"). Lying to Congress is a federal felony, so defending some of the people that he needs now in the agency doesn't make him a neutral observer. Its not like the CIA is renowned for their honesty.
ed
Also former Intelligence Committee Chair Graham backs Pelosi's story.
People aren't saying "These criticisms of Pelosi are sexist".
They are saying "The GOP has always had a major Hate-on for Pelosi and they are using this opportunity to push it into full gear."
This.
My personal opinions on her guilt or innocence aside, it's pretty obvious that the GOP has hated Pelosi for years, and will jump on anything to try and take her out. If she's guilty, she needs to go. But this shitstorm right now? Partially fueled by her position, partially fueled by any GOP member being more than happy to go "... but PELOSI!" any time they're asked a question. And it's not because they're sexist, they just really really fucking hate everything about Pelosi.
I didn't say he was a Democrat, I don't think that position has a party affiliation.
Anyway, the CIA is still controlled from within by GHWBush and Cheney. They could be orchestrating this whole thing just to take her down a peg.
It's dealing with a federal offense accusation from Pelosi. Even if it's NOT Bush/Cheney loyalists trying to take her out, if someone didn't tell her the entire truth of the matter, they're damned sure going to claim they did until it goes to court. Pelosi's damned well going to claim nobody told her and use those silly memos to prove it (the ones that can't entirely keep track of who was at what meeting)
It's a mess and until people actually investigate, it's just going to be he said/she said over who was at a damned meeting and told what about the topic.
I didn't say he was a Democrat, I don't think that position has a party affiliation.
Anyway, the CIA is still controlled from within by GHWBush and Cheney. They could be orchestrating this whole thing just to take her down a peg.
It's dealing with a federal offense accusation from Pelosi. Even if it's NOT Bush/Cheney loyalists trying to take her out, if someone didn't tell her the entire truth of the matter, they're damned sure going to claim they did until it goes to court. Pelosi's damned well going to claim nobody told her and use those silly memos to prove it (the ones that can't entirely keep track of who was at what meeting)
It's a mess and until people actually investigate, it's just going to be he said/she said over who was at a damned meeting and told what about the topic.
Which of course, obscures the larger point, which is what the Republicans (and the media, really) wants. Huzzah!
enlightenedbum on
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
People aren't saying "These criticisms of Pelosi are sexist".
They are saying "The GOP has always had a major Hate-on for Pelosi and they are using this opportunity to push it into full gear."
This.
My personal opinions on her guilt or innocence aside, it's pretty obvious that the GOP has hated Pelosi for years, and will jump on anything to try and take her out. If she's guilty, she needs to go. But this shitstorm right now? Partially fueled by her position, partially fueled by any GOP member being more than happy to go "... but PELOSI!" any time they're asked a question. And it's not because they're sexist, they just really really fucking hate everything about Pelosi.
Exactly what do people think she is guilty of? Knowing about techniques that were used? Because she sure as hell didn't order/orchestrate anything...
You have a very weird idea of what people are complaining about.
People aren't saying "These criticisms of Pelosi are sexist".
They are saying "The GOP has always had a major Hate-on for Pelosi and they are using this opportunity to push it into full gear."
Oh, yeah, they have a major issue with the lady who has made it a big part of her poltiical persona, especially recently, to be unabashedly partisan and divisive and aggressive towards them. But it's not that. It's not that she purposefully derailed the stimulus vote by stepping up to make a speech about how the entire financial crisis was caused by Republicans, right before the vote, which is widely acknowledged as why the Republicans decided not to push forward with it at that time. No, it must be misogyny. They hate wimminz 'specially when they ain't in the kichin whar they blong.
I have no weird ideas on this. What's weird is that we have an admittedly inconclusive but quite questionable situation here, where Pelosi, leading the charge against Bush and his defeated ex-administration and all Republicans for their knowledge or approval of EIT/torture, when it turns out that she was like the first person in Congress who was also briefed on the matter and possibly even supported it herself. And we've got Obama CIA people backing it up and calling her a liar, and I decided (against my better judgment) to finally check out this thread, and sure as hell enough, I find a bunch of posts about Republicans being mysogynists, and it's all because she's Californian and a woman and gosh imagine if she was black, they'd probably lynch her! olol. Except they probably don't like her because she makes it her career to attack them, above and beyond the usual partisan politics, not because she's a woman. And when she gets called out (by the press first of all) for her very important complicit role in EIT/torture, again, I really don't think we're being unfair to make that an issue, given her recent comments. I don't think it does any good to try to chalk it up to some irrational Republican bigotry.
Your still completely 100% missing the point. They've hated Pelosi for years. With a passion. A terrifying, inexplicable fucking passion. They've hated this women since before most Americans even knew who the fuck she was.
Some people speculated it was sexism. I've got no idea, it's never made any sense to me.
Yeah, truly, the Republicans were totally on board with the bailout (get your derailed votes right) until mean, nasty, Nancy Pelosi hurt their feelings. What a bunch of pussies the Republicans seem to be.
enlightenedbum on
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
I was listening to NPR today and they were discussing the topic of US torture, and they mentioned a third entity directly involved with these interrogations. The FBI, the CIA, and a group of independent contractors, employees of a company formed by former SERE program participants. They mentioned the name of this company, but it now escapes me. Anyone familiar?
Soufan's written testimony said contractors used nudity, sleep deprivation, loud noise and temperature manipulation against Zubaydah, even before the Justice Department provided legal permission in writing.
Soufan said the contractors did not have any experience in interrogations. They reportedly came from a school where the Army trained American personnel to resist torture.
Trainers from the military school created a private company called Mitchell Jessen & Associates. No one from the company has spoken publicly in the past few years, and they could not be reached for this story.
Yeah, truly, the Republicans were totally on board with the bailout (get your derailed votes right) until mean, nasty, Nancy Pelosi hurt their feelings. What a bunch of pussies the Republicans seem to be.
Call them what you want, they were pretty clear that they were set to vote for it until Pelosi got up there and was like "ok, let's undo the damage Republicans caused," which set them up to be voting on the record for something even more damning than they wanted. I don't think I have any intentions whatsoever of debating Republicans as pussies or not. I think the question was "why the hate for Pelosi? Misogyny?" And I'm saying, "no, maybe crap like that speech, and her campaign to villify, and so on." She's built a career on it, and it's part of why she rose to the top when they were at their most disgraced. So yeah, she isn't their favorite.
I've never had any illusions about Pelosi being a particularly scrupulous politician, but the frothing that's been going on in the right wing media over the last few days is just an opportunistic way of changing the story to one of their favorite topics. We're supposed to be more concerned about her lies than about the fact that our government tortured human beings.
Your still completely 100% missing the point. They've hated Pelosi for years. With a passion. A terrifying, inexplicable fucking passion. They've hated this women since before most Americans even knew who the fuck she was.
Some people speculated it was sexism. I've got no idea, it's never made any sense to me.
Oh yeah, I remember Pubbies spewing vitriol at her years before she was speaker of the house.
You have a very weird idea of what people are complaining about.
People aren't saying "These criticisms of Pelosi are sexist".
They are saying "The GOP has always had a major Hate-on for Pelosi and they are using this opportunity to push it into full gear."
Oh, yeah, they have a major issue with the lady who has made it a big part of her poltiical persona, especially recently, to be unabashedly partisan and divisive and aggressive towards them. But it's not that. It's not that she purposefully derailed the stimulus vote by stepping up to make a speech about how the entire financial crisis was caused by Republicans, right before the vote, which is widely acknowledged as why the Republicans decided not to push forward with it at that time. No, it must be misogyny. They hate wimminz 'specially when they ain't in the kichin whar they blong.
So your defense of the GOP in this case is "BUT SHE STARTED IT"?
I've never had any illusions about Pelosi being a particularly scrupulous politician, but the frothing that's been going on in the right wing media over the last few days is just an opportunistic way of changing the story to one of their favorite topics. We're supposed to be more concerned about her lies than about the fact that our government tortured human beings.
Yep, and given the reactions of certain people in this thread, it's working.
Also, Yar, it was torture. Let's treat the English language with some dignity here.
Sorry, I'm being ever as indecisive on the terminology as the media and government are.
The President refers to it as torture. Hell, the NYT only fails to refer to it as torture in cases where we did it. When it was Americans being treated the same way, it was torture.
Alternately: was John McCain subjected to "enhanced interrogation techniques?"
enlightenedbum on
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
Call them what you want, they were pretty clear that they were set to vote for it until Pelosi got up there and was like "ok, let's undo the damage Republicans caused,"
You have a very weird idea of what people are complaining about.
People aren't saying "These criticisms of Pelosi are sexist".
They are saying "The GOP has always had a major Hate-on for Pelosi and they are using this opportunity to push it into full gear."
Oh, yeah, they have a major issue with the lady who has made it a big part of her poltiical persona, especially recently, to be unabashedly partisan and divisive and aggressive towards them. But it's not that. It's not that she purposefully derailed the stimulus vote by stepping up to make a speech about how the entire financial crisis was caused by Republicans, right before the vote, which is widely acknowledged as why the Republicans decided not to push forward with it at that time. No, it must be misogyny. They hate wimminz 'specially when they ain't in the kichin whar they blong.
I have no weird ideas on this. What's weird is that we have an admittedly inconclusive but quite questionable situation here, where Pelosi, leading the charge against Bush and his defeated ex-administration and all Republicans for their knowledge or approval of EIT/torture, when it turns out that she was like the first person in Congress who was also briefed on the matter and possibly even supported it herself. And we've got Obama CIA people backing it up and calling her a liar, and I decided (against my better judgment) to finally check out this thread, and sure as hell enough, I find a bunch of posts about Republicans being mysogynists, and it's all because she's Californian and a woman and gosh imagine if she was black, they'd probably lynch her! olol. Except they probably don't like her because she makes it her career to attack them, above and beyond the usual partisan politics, not because she's a woman. And when she gets called out (by the press first of all) for her very important complicit role in EIT/torture, again, I really don't think we're being unfair to make that an issue, given her recent comments. I don't think it does any good to try to chalk it up to some irrational Republican bigotry.
Wow, you sure like your persecution complex, don't you? Can you at least acknowledge that Pelosi's role in this whole affair is a small turd on the giant pile of shit that was the torture program? And that pointing out this particular little turd in order to excuse the existence of said shit pile is essentially a huge campaign to deflect attention and pawn off responsibility to a person who had just about the least power to do anything about it? If you were a firefighter, you'd be the dumbass blasting the hose at the smoldering shrub next to the house instead of the raging fire that's consuming the house.
Also, Yar, it was torture. Let's treat the English language with some dignity here.
Sorry, I'm being ever as indecisive on the terminology as the media and government are.
The President refers to it as torture. Hell, the NYT only fails to refer to it as torture in cases where we did it. When it was Americans being treated the same way, it was torture.
Alternately: was John McCain subjected to "enhanced interrogation techniques?"
It's only torture when people do it to our soldiers. I guess none of the pro-torture retards realize that by cheerleading the use of torture against our enemies, they're really just providing cover for our enemies to torture our soldiers. "But they do it to us, too" goes both ways.
You have a very weird idea of what people are complaining about.
People aren't saying "These criticisms of Pelosi are sexist".
They are saying "The GOP has always had a major Hate-on for Pelosi and they are using this opportunity to push it into full gear."
Oh, yeah, they have a major issue with the lady who has made it a big part of her poltiical persona, especially recently, to be unabashedly partisan and divisive and aggressive towards them. But it's not that. It's not that she purposefully derailed the stimulus vote by stepping up to make a speech about how the entire financial crisis was caused by Republicans, right before the vote, which is widely acknowledged as why the Republicans decided not to push forward with it at that time. No, it must be misogyny. They hate wimminz 'specially when they ain't in the kichin whar they blong.
So your defense of the GOP in this case is "BUT SHE STARTED IT"?
If you're still crying about it, Barney Frank's offer to talk talk nice to you still stands.
Well SBS (Australia) went and released some of the photos, so here it begins again.
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MrMisterJesus dying on the cross in pain? Morally better than us. One has to go "all in".Registered Userregular
edited May 2009
Is there anything that Pelosi could have done?
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AegisFear My DanceOvershot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered Userregular
edited May 2009
I don't believe she was in a position at the time to do anything, not just because of her own position but also the composition of the houses not being as yet fully Democratic.
MrMisterJesus dying on the cross in pain? Morally better than us. One has to go "all in".Registered Userregular
edited May 2009
If she wasn't at liberty to disclose the information, if the information was misleading, or if there was no legislative avenue by which she could interact with the issue, then whether she knew torture was going on seems rather aside from the point.
That's pretty far removed from any serious culpability.
Posts
The saddest thing is that this is probably the only way we'll get bipartisan support for a truth commission. Because premeditated torture programs are only reprehensible and worthy of investigation when you can blame it on people you already hate.
And if you don't think sexism has something to do with the way a lot of the pubs view and treat women like Pelosi and Hillary I don't know what planet you're on. When I was a kid in a strongly pub area during the Clinton years you wouldn't believe the vitriol I heard and saw directed toward Hillary. They hated her like you don't even know. Her sexuality, womanhood, decency as a human being, even status as a human being was constantly being called into question, insulted and derided.
That's just the shit I noticed when I was a kid. I'm sure if I'd been old enough to actually know what the fuck I would have noticed a lot more.
Over react much? I'm actually agreeing here, but also trying to show how reluctant I am in coming to these conclusions. Yeah, I love me some idealism, it's hard for me to let go of it or temper it. It's a personal defect after a certain point, and I admit it. Fuck man, I'm working at it.
I didn't think there was much Pelosi defense. She does get a lot of hate for being Pelosi (she was getting mauled when she became speaker, and ever since)
But if she's actually in the know and lying about it? I hope she goes down. If she's telling the truth and the CIA briefings were less than forthcoming? They should go down. I'm pretty equal opportunity here: anyone involved in this program should be fair game. No forming ranks around political parties and trying to make this an us versus them shitfest. It's a pro vs anti torture thing. If you advocated, approved, assisted or commited torture, you should be involved in the investigation.
I just find it interesting that Harry Reid isn't getting attacked by the right with the same vigor considering he was also part of the Gang of 8. The narrative shift just seems rather odd. Particularly with a few of the bombshells that have been coming out on the topic.
Why on earth would the Republicans want anything to happen to Harry Reid? He's their best man in the Senate.
Your so cute when your naive.
The lines are already being drawn.
Shit, you can't even avoid it by making it "Pro-torture vs Anti-Torture" because there's right-wing types coming down PRO-TORTURE because it "saves American Lives" or some shit. I'm not kidding.
No matter what happens, any prosecution of this is gonna turn into one huge gigantic partisan shitstorm.
If Pelosi was involved in this shit? Bye Pelosi. I'm not going to defend her because her party ID happens to match mine this year.
She's also calling or the actual briefings to be released by the CIA.
Absolute worst case scenario: Pelosi knew the whole time, was legally prohibited from revealing this information, either condoned it or didn't stop it and then worked hard to remove the Bush Administration while speaking against such practices that had been revealed to the public.
The entire sin of the above is intrinsically linked to the malfeasance of the previous Administration. For every X of bad that is, there is a much bigger Y of bad the Bush Administration did. If it wasn't torture, she played politics. If it was torture, then she didn't commit a felony in order to try to stop it and played politics.
If on the other hand the much better supported idea that she was told they might torture but hadn't actually yet, had no legal power to stop or reveal these actions and honestly did oppose the practices, then the CIA lied again to Congress.
Either way, Pelosi's actions are minuscule compared to the previous Administration's!
QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
Agreed on that. But I have little faith anything will come of this.
Yar:
You have a very weird idea of what people are complaining about.
People aren't saying "These criticisms of Pelosi are sexist".
They are saying "The GOP has always had a major Hate-on for Pelosi and they are using this opportunity to push it into full gear."
Leon Panetta is now a key Democrat? I'm pretty sure he's not even a Democrat. He also wasn't even with the CIA in 2002 and despite his letter today the CIA isn't even willing to stand by their own report ("best recollection" and "Ultimately, it is up to Congress to evaluate all the evidence and reach its own conclusions about what happened"). Lying to Congress is a federal felony, so defending some of the people that he needs now in the agency doesn't make him a neutral observer. Its not like the CIA is renowned for their honesty.
ed
Also former Intelligence Committee Chair Graham backs Pelosi's story.
QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
Anyway, the CIA is still controlled from within by GHWBush and Cheney. They could be orchestrating this whole thing just to take her down a peg.
This.
My personal opinions on her guilt or innocence aside, it's pretty obvious that the GOP has hated Pelosi for years, and will jump on anything to try and take her out. If she's guilty, she needs to go. But this shitstorm right now? Partially fueled by her position, partially fueled by any GOP member being more than happy to go "... but PELOSI!" any time they're asked a question. And it's not because they're sexist, they just really really fucking hate everything about Pelosi.
It's dealing with a federal offense accusation from Pelosi. Even if it's NOT Bush/Cheney loyalists trying to take her out, if someone didn't tell her the entire truth of the matter, they're damned sure going to claim they did until it goes to court. Pelosi's damned well going to claim nobody told her and use those silly memos to prove it (the ones that can't entirely keep track of who was at what meeting)
It's a mess and until people actually investigate, it's just going to be he said/she said over who was at a damned meeting and told what about the topic.
o_O
*slowly dons tinfoil hat*
Which of course, obscures the larger point, which is what the Republicans (and the media, really) wants. Huzzah!
Exactly what do people think she is guilty of? Knowing about techniques that were used? Because she sure as hell didn't order/orchestrate anything...
I have no weird ideas on this. What's weird is that we have an admittedly inconclusive but quite questionable situation here, where Pelosi, leading the charge against Bush and his defeated ex-administration and all Republicans for their knowledge or approval of EIT/torture, when it turns out that she was like the first person in Congress who was also briefed on the matter and possibly even supported it herself. And we've got Obama CIA people backing it up and calling her a liar, and I decided (against my better judgment) to finally check out this thread, and sure as hell enough, I find a bunch of posts about Republicans being mysogynists, and it's all because she's Californian and a woman and gosh imagine if she was black, they'd probably lynch her! olol. Except they probably don't like her because she makes it her career to attack them, above and beyond the usual partisan politics, not because she's a woman. And when she gets called out (by the press first of all) for her very important complicit role in EIT/torture, again, I really don't think we're being unfair to make that an issue, given her recent comments. I don't think it does any good to try to chalk it up to some irrational Republican bigotry.
Some people speculated it was sexism. I've got no idea, it's never made any sense to me.
I found an article on it: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=104160006&sc=fb&cc=fp
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Call them what you want, they were pretty clear that they were set to vote for it until Pelosi got up there and was like "ok, let's undo the damage Republicans caused," which set them up to be voting on the record for something even more damning than they wanted. I don't think I have any intentions whatsoever of debating Republicans as pussies or not. I think the question was "why the hate for Pelosi? Misogyny?" And I'm saying, "no, maybe crap like that speech, and her campaign to villify, and so on." She's built a career on it, and it's part of why she rose to the top when they were at their most disgraced. So yeah, she isn't their favorite.
And yeah, bailout, I know.
Oh yeah, I remember Pubbies spewing vitriol at her years before she was speaker of the house.
Yep, and given the reactions of certain people in this thread, it's working.
The President refers to it as torture. Hell, the NYT only fails to refer to it as torture in cases where we did it. When it was Americans being treated the same way, it was torture.
Alternately: was John McCain subjected to "enhanced interrogation techniques?"
False and transparently so.
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Wow, you sure like your persecution complex, don't you? Can you at least acknowledge that Pelosi's role in this whole affair is a small turd on the giant pile of shit that was the torture program? And that pointing out this particular little turd in order to excuse the existence of said shit pile is essentially a huge campaign to deflect attention and pawn off responsibility to a person who had just about the least power to do anything about it? If you were a firefighter, you'd be the dumbass blasting the hose at the smoldering shrub next to the house instead of the raging fire that's consuming the house.
It's only torture when people do it to our soldiers. I guess none of the pro-torture retards realize that by cheerleading the use of torture against our enemies, they're really just providing cover for our enemies to torture our soldiers. "But they do it to us, too" goes both ways.
If you're still crying about it, Barney Frank's offer to talk talk nice to you still stands.
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That's pretty far removed from any serious culpability.