I'm so far 2 for 2 on "OH SHIT TANK DIED I WILL TANK SAPPHIRON YOU CAN THANK ME LATER" as a DPS warrior. Lived both times for most of a phase until a legitimate offtank managed to outthreat me.
more like 2 for 2 on the "I will tank sapph you can thank the healers later because they healed through it" scale.
Eh, it's mostly RNG. I got the shield wall off both times, and sapphiron decided not to crit me after SW fell. I dunno if the healers really deserve all that much credit for letting the MT die in the first place... twice in two seperate nights.
I'm so far 2 for 2 on "OH SHIT TANK DIED I WILL TANK SAPPHIRON YOU CAN THANK ME LATER" as a DPS warrior. Lived both times for most of a phase until a legitimate offtank managed to outthreat me.
more like 2 for 2 on the "I will tank sapph you can thank the healers later because they healed through it" scale.
Eh, it's mostly RNG. I got the shield wall off both times, and sapphiron decided not to crit me after SW fell. I dunno if the healers really deserve all that much credit for letting the MT die in the first place... twice in two seperate nights.
depends on how he died, I suppose. Did he die due to frost blast? standing in a blizzard? slow decursing? a particularly spirited game of "how low can the tank go"? My record is 40 or so, in the MC days.
And yet there's roughly 15 fast offhands there. I find this utterly perplexing. Why are there so many fast nondagger/fist weapon offhands, yet so few slow nondagger/fist weapon mainhands?
I get that many of these are tanking/spelldamage weapons, but there's still far more offhand-appropriate weapons than there are mainhand-appropriate weapons.
I count 5 fast weapons that actually have dps stats and we haven't seen all the items yet. It's also not that different than the current itemization I believe either.
I'm so far 2 for 2 on "OH SHIT TANK DIED I WILL TANK SAPPHIRON YOU CAN THANK ME LATER" as a DPS warrior. Lived both times for most of a phase until a legitimate offtank managed to outthreat me.
more like 2 for 2 on the "I will tank sapph you can thank the healers later because they healed through it" scale.
Eh, it's mostly RNG. I got the shield wall off both times, and sapphiron decided not to crit me after SW fell. I dunno if the healers really deserve all that much credit for letting the MT die in the first place... twice in two seperate nights.
depends on how he died, I suppose. Did he die due to frost blast? standing in a blizzard? slow decursing? a particularly spirited game of "how low can the tank go"? My record is 40 or so, in the MC days.
First ten seconds of the fight. He died because nobody healed him.
I just looked through the log. He lasted 11 seconds into the fight. He got one holy light that topped him off six seconds in, and then for the next five seconds the only healing he got was an Earth Shield charge. Someone or something must have managed to parry Sapphiron, though, because right before he died he got meleed twice instantly (like 1/10th of a second apart) for about 17k and there wasn't any parry in the log from the tank that would have caused it.
I'm so far 2 for 2 on "OH SHIT TANK DIED I WILL TANK SAPPHIRON YOU CAN THANK ME LATER" as a DPS warrior. Lived both times for most of a phase until a legitimate offtank managed to outthreat me.
more like 2 for 2 on the "I will tank sapph you can thank the healers later because they healed through it" scale.
Eh, it's mostly RNG. I got the shield wall off both times, and sapphiron decided not to crit me after SW fell. I dunno if the healers really deserve all that much credit for letting the MT die in the first place... twice in two seperate nights.
Yeah you beat me to saying this. Healers get no glory for a "save" like that when they are the ones who fucked it up in the first place.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
1 point per 2 hours of attendance
1 point to exceptional raider
1 point for attending all raids in a week
Resets at first of each month
1 point to bid normal epic
3 points to bid tier
5 points for best in slot
You send bid to your class officer, loot council of three determines who gets what.
To bid 25-man the item you upgrade must be at least 80 blue
To bid 10-man the item you upgrade much be at least 78 blue
I completely dislike this idea. For one thing I have a green trinket I guess will never get upgraded along with a blue ring. All my other gear is heroic/10/25 epic. I am NOT going to run heroics to try to upgrade the ring and trinket to an 80 blue so I can get that slot filled with naxx gear. We'll see, we have a naxx run tonight and I'm sure it will be discussed.
edit: I mostly dislike the item requirement to get loot. I am probably in the top 3 geared of our raiders and even I don't meet that requirement for every slot.
The loophole for trinkets and rings would be that you only have to have one that meets the asinine requirement.
I don't think there should be such strict rules on the exact item level of the items, but particularly for slots with crafted epics available, if you don't have it, and didn't just hit 80 a couple days ago, thats bad.
1 point per 2 hours of attendance
1 point to exceptional raider
1 point for attending all raids in a week
Resets at first of each month
1 point to bid normal epic
3 points to bid tier
5 points for best in slot
You send bid to your class officer, loot council of three determines who gets what.
To bid 25-man the item you upgrade must be at least 80 blue
To bid 10-man the item you upgrade much be at least 78 blue
I completely dislike this idea. For one thing I have a green trinket I guess will never get upgraded along with a blue ring. All my other gear is heroic/10/25 epic. I am NOT going to run heroics to try to upgrade the ring and trinket to an 80 blue so I can get that slot filled with naxx gear. We'll see, we have a naxx run tonight and I'm sure it will be discussed.
edit: I mostly dislike the item requirement to get loot. I am probably in the top 3 geared of our raiders and even I don't meet that requirement for every slot.
The loophole for trinkets and rings would be that you only have to have one that meets the asinine requirement.
I don't think there should be such strict rules on the exact item level of the items, but particularly for slots with crafted epics available, if you don't have it, and didn't just hit 80 a couple days ago, thats bad.
After logging on and having a chance to look at my gear the only thing that doesn't meet the requirements are my leggings. I guess I'll start running halls of stone praying for those to drop. Everything else except my rings are level 80 epics and my rings are lvl 80 blues.
Anub'rekhan last night... 11% of damage at 4.5k dps for the fight. A winner is me lol. I was happy.
edit:
Oh yeah, the rules were put there because an officer got upset that he wasn't getting loot due to a new guy in quest blues joining the raid. Of course never mind we need warm bodies right now since we are struggling to fill the raid. Start implementing stuff like the item rule once we can reliably fill out 25 man plus a couple of bench warmers.
Back in BC we actually used to have a side rule that said if you have something shitty like a blue, you HAVE to roll on an upgrade in that slot. Because we actually had people (well, one guy specifically but occasionally others) who would pass on obvious but minor upgrades because they wanted to save their roll for big ticket items. So this guy got Vashj's healing mace but only because he had blue boots and didn't roll on some epic boots that had dropped earlier and no one really noticed. I hate how we have to monitor people.
Back in BC we actually used to have a side rule that said if you have something shitty like a blue, you HAVE to roll on an upgrade in that slot. Because we actually had people (well, one guy specifically but occasionally others) who would pass on obvious but minor upgrades because they wanted to save their roll for big ticket items. So this guy got Vashj's healing mace but only because he had blue boots and didn't roll on some epic boots that had dropped earlier and no one really noticed. I hate how we have to monitor people.
But doesn't that just become loot assignment aka loot council?
The only issue I can see is if someone hoards points or whatever and then doesn't pull their weight. In which case they just... don't get invited as much. Can't get that drop you want if you aren't there lulz
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
edited March 2009
This is part of the reason why I prefer rolling with a smaller, tightnit group. It's easier to know people, it's easier to monitor if a person is selfish/self-serving or if they are altruistic.
I prefer my "Munkus Law" system because the only person it can corrupt is me. I just need to remain stalwart and the guild will benefit as a result. It's not that I like that responsibility or that I can't trust other people, but it removes the chances of things like what riz said.
Also, I have been burned by people I have put my utmost trust in in the past. So to protect myself from my own cynical beliefs, I stick by my "Munkus Law" system. A monarchy is the best form of internet government as long as the king is uncorrupted.
Munkus Beaver on
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
I do think my guild suffers from ruling-by-committee but there is no one we would trust with absolute/final authority. Our ex-GM was a good leader but even he let the officers sort of come to a collective decision on things.
Oh yeah, the rules were put there because an officer got upset that he wasn't getting loot due to a new guy in quest blues joining the raid. Of course never mind we need warm bodies right now since we are struggling to fill the raid. Start implementing stuff like the item rule once we can reliably fill out 25 man plus a couple of bench warmers.
True, but it can be frustrating to be almost completely geared out, and to have been putting together raids and being there every night, only to give out that one or two pieces you need to someone new. There has to be a balance, or else the people who have been contributing grow resentful.
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
edited March 2009
Ironically, I think that the only reason why people trust me with absolute/final authority is because I was in that position to begin with. We used to have a sort of committee, but I just took over once one leader got disinvolved with the guild and the other became disinvolved with raiding/politics.
Thus I am King because I have been King, even though I am certain I would never have had the chance to be King unless I was already King.
Munkus Beaver on
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
Barring the six months or so that you stopped playing, that is
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
edited March 2009
I wasn't in charge during that time frame! I took over when others left!
Munkus Beaver on
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
I do think my guild suffers from ruling-by-committee but there is no one we would trust with absolute/final authority. Our ex-GM was a good leader but even he let the officers sort of come to a collective decision on things.
Consensus can work if someone is guiding the discussion so that consensus can actually be reached. That requires someone who has some degree of leadership skills.
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AngryThe glory I had witnessedwas just a sleight of handRegistered Userregular
edited March 2009
a bunch of us just transferred to a new server to join a pretty successful raiding guild. they use a wish list system, and it' seems pretty good so far. i think at max you can have 5 items on the wish list with no slots needed to be chosen.
also, passed their dps test on patch with 5.8k, even though i mismanaged my timings and forgot to have my DRW glyph in.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited March 2009
While I previously championed loot council, I've since changed my mind. Any loot system where people do not gain anything by being the ones who have to sit out that night is a bad system.
Any sort of system where people gain something towards their next piece of loot while sitting out (DKP point gains, Raid Attendance Points, Riz's guilds Cooldown system, whatever) will always do better than any other, because while sitting out of a raid does mean you don't get any loot that particular night, it increases the chances of you getting more, because you gain points towards it.
Loot Council and people not gaining anything by sitting out don't go hand in hand. If the loot council doesn't take into account that people had to sit out then that's equivalent to not gaining DKP, etc while sitting out.
khain on
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited March 2009
Yes, but while the loot council might take sitting out into account, people don't see that happen right away. Even if sitting out does build goodwill with the loot council, there is no quantifiable benefit to sitting out, only missing out on the loot that dropped that night.
Yes, but while the loot council might take sitting out into account, people don't see that happen right away. Even if sitting out does build goodwill with the loot council, there is no quantifiable benefit to sitting out, only missing out on the loot that dropped that night.
And people need quantifiable benefits.
YellowGreened for "Eeehhhh, sometimes sorta, I guess, but not really". While this is sometimes true, the kind of people that you need to give a cookie to every raid in order to keep them content are not your best members. Now obviously not everybody has the luxury of telling these people to get bent if its such a big deal, but if your guild can pull that off you're going to be in better shape for it.
If anybody in your guild has the leadership clout to pull off a loot council, its always worth doing. DKP sucks, and it has since EverQuest. It causes way more problems than it solves.
Yes, but while the loot council might take sitting out into account, people don't see that happen right away. Even if sitting out does build goodwill with the loot council, there is no quantifiable benefit to sitting out, only missing out on the loot that dropped that night.
And people need quantifiable benefits.
YellowGreened for "Eeehhhh, sometimes sorta, I guess, but not really". While this is sometimes true, the kind of people that you need to give a cookie to every raid in order to keep them content are not your best members. Now obviously not everybody has the luxury of telling these people to get bent if its such a big deal, but if your guild can pull that off you're going to be in better shape for it.
If anybody in your guild has the leadership clout to pull off a loot council, its always worth doing. DKP sucks, and it has since EverQuest. It causes way more problems than it solves.
No, dhalphir is right. It would be wonderful to have a raid full of altruistic people who trust eachother implicitly, but most raids don't have that, and if your raid does, any loot system will work just fine for you anyway.
Structure is good because it prevents impropriety (or the appearance of impropriety, which can be just as bad.) The challenge is implementing structure in a way that incentivizes the things you want to incentivize.
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Also, I'm currently destroying my brain trying to figure out if I think using heroism/bloodlust in execute range is really as big a benefit as everyone thinks it is.
uuuuuuggggghhhhhhhh curse my sloth in undergrad calculus
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
I think it depends on how many people you have with talents that give you a passive damage boost if the mob is under a certain percent hp. My gut instinct is that those classes would get a much bigger boost if heroism is used inside those percentages. If it's just paladins with Hammer of Wrath/Warriors with Execute/etc, then probably not really.
Could be wrong, though; this is all off the top of my head.
Also, I'm currently destroying my brain trying to figure out if I think using heroism/bloodlust in execute range is really as big a benefit as everyone thinks it is.
uuuuuuggggghhhhhhhh curse my sloth in undergrad calculus
The EJ maths has been done, its on the website somewhere. Its blocked at work, so I can't source it.
there is a summary over at Blessing of Kings, here
I'm not sure I can agree with that summary on BoK. At least for a warrior the amount of rage you have determines how often you can execute so attacking 30% faster will allow you to execute more often and fill up all available GCDs where as you can't do that without BL. This isn't true if you BL at 90% as you have very few ways to dump rage and HS alone doesn't cut it. What I think this means is that BL isn't a straight increase in damage for warriors which throws off the calculations they use.
I'm not sure I can agree with that summary on BoK. At least for a warrior the amount of rage you have determines how often you can execute so attacking 30% faster will allow you to execute more often and fill up all available GCDs where as you can't do that without BL. This isn't true if you BL at 90% as you have very few ways to dump rage and HS alone doesn't cut it. What I think this means is that BL isn't a straight increase in damage for warriors which throws off the calculations they use.
This is basically where it gets hard. Warriors, mages, and maybe other classes have mechanics that scale multiplicatively with haste within execute range. Execute range also causes some classes' rotations to change, which means you can't even compare their >35% numbers straight across.
The answer is probably that it's still best to use it in execute range, but not by as much as everyone thinks and maybe not by enough to outweigh the risk of people dying when considered vs. just blowing it at 95%.
edit: also, depends on raid comp.
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited March 2009
Another advantage to blowing it early is that everyone can blow all their cooldowns early, and depending on the length of the fight, may be able to use them again at 35%, whereas blowing cooldowns at the start of a fight without a bloodlust is generally not encouraged unless you KNOW that the fight will take more than 3mins (the length of most talented cooldowns)
yeah, but if they can do that they should be doing it regardless of how you time bloodlust
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
edited March 2009
I get the shamans to use it at the start of the fight so that everyone can burn their cooldowns at the same time as bloodlust.
Munkus Beaver on
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
Another advantage to blowing it early is that everyone can blow all their cooldowns early, and depending on the length of the fight, may be able to use them again at 35%, whereas blowing cooldowns at the start of a fight without a bloodlust is generally not encouraged unless you KNOW that the fight will take more than 3mins (the length of most talented cooldowns)
We usually blow Bloodlust when the boss is around 35% since many classes have abilities which grant them bonus damage when a boss is below 30%.
I hate when people tell me when to blow Heroism. It's usually at the most asinine times. 35% is too low for most bosses now. I can never time my wolves for when someone else does it, either.
I hate when people tell me when to blow Heroism. It's usually at the most asinine times. 35% is too low for most bosses now. I can never time my wolves for when someone else does it, either.
Yeah, this can be a problem. :P
I think on fights where we'd rather blow bloodlust later we just do it at 50%, but most fights where I really care when we blow it have special circumstances beyond when its a simple dps increase.
End on
I wish that someway, somehow, that I could save every one of us
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
Another advantage to blowing it early is that everyone can blow all their cooldowns early, and depending on the length of the fight, may be able to use them again at 35%, whereas blowing cooldowns at the start of a fight without a bloodlust is generally not encouraged unless you KNOW that the fight will take more than 3mins (the length of most talented cooldowns)
We usually blow Bloodlust when the boss is around 35% since many classes have abilities which grant them bonus damage when a boss is below 30%.
this is the discussion we were just having, and there is significant physical evidence to prove that it does not make a difference when you blow lust.
Posts
Eh, it's mostly RNG. I got the shield wall off both times, and sapphiron decided not to crit me after SW fell. I dunno if the healers really deserve all that much credit for letting the MT die in the first place... twice in two seperate nights.
depends on how he died, I suppose. Did he die due to frost blast? standing in a blizzard? slow decursing? a particularly spirited game of "how low can the tank go"? My record is 40 or so, in the MC days.
I count 5 fast weapons that actually have dps stats and we haven't seen all the items yet. It's also not that different than the current itemization I believe either.
First ten seconds of the fight. He died because nobody healed him.
I just looked through the log. He lasted 11 seconds into the fight. He got one holy light that topped him off six seconds in, and then for the next five seconds the only healing he got was an Earth Shield charge. Someone or something must have managed to parry Sapphiron, though, because right before he died he got meleed twice instantly (like 1/10th of a second apart) for about 17k and there wasn't any parry in the log from the tank that would have caused it.
Yeah you beat me to saying this. Healers get no glory for a "save" like that when they are the ones who fucked it up in the first place.
I don't think there should be such strict rules on the exact item level of the items, but particularly for slots with crafted epics available, if you don't have it, and didn't just hit 80 a couple days ago, thats bad.
After logging on and having a chance to look at my gear the only thing that doesn't meet the requirements are my leggings. I guess I'll start running halls of stone praying for those to drop. Everything else except my rings are level 80 epics and my rings are lvl 80 blues.
Anub'rekhan last night... 11% of damage at 4.5k dps for the fight. A winner is me lol. I was happy.
edit:
Oh yeah, the rules were put there because an officer got upset that he wasn't getting loot due to a new guy in quest blues joining the raid. Of course never mind we need warm bodies right now since we are struggling to fill the raid. Start implementing stuff like the item rule once we can reliably fill out 25 man plus a couple of bench warmers.
But doesn't that just become loot assignment aka loot council?
The only issue I can see is if someone hoards points or whatever and then doesn't pull their weight. In which case they just... don't get invited as much. Can't get that drop you want if you aren't there lulz
I prefer my "Munkus Law" system because the only person it can corrupt is me. I just need to remain stalwart and the guild will benefit as a result. It's not that I like that responsibility or that I can't trust other people, but it removes the chances of things like what riz said.
Also, I have been burned by people I have put my utmost trust in in the past. So to protect myself from my own cynical beliefs, I stick by my "Munkus Law" system. A monarchy is the best form of internet government as long as the king is uncorrupted.
True, but it can be frustrating to be almost completely geared out, and to have been putting together raids and being there every night, only to give out that one or two pieces you need to someone new. There has to be a balance, or else the people who have been contributing grow resentful.
Thus I am King because I have been King, even though I am certain I would never have had the chance to be King unless I was already King.
Consensus can work if someone is guiding the discussion so that consensus can actually be reached. That requires someone who has some degree of leadership skills.
also, passed their dps test on patch with 5.8k, even though i mismanaged my timings and forgot to have my DRW glyph in.
Any sort of system where people gain something towards their next piece of loot while sitting out (DKP point gains, Raid Attendance Points, Riz's guilds Cooldown system, whatever) will always do better than any other, because while sitting out of a raid does mean you don't get any loot that particular night, it increases the chances of you getting more, because you gain points towards it.
And people need quantifiable benefits.
YellowGreened for "Eeehhhh, sometimes sorta, I guess, but not really". While this is sometimes true, the kind of people that you need to give a cookie to every raid in order to keep them content are not your best members. Now obviously not everybody has the luxury of telling these people to get bent if its such a big deal, but if your guild can pull that off you're going to be in better shape for it.
If anybody in your guild has the leadership clout to pull off a loot council, its always worth doing. DKP sucks, and it has since EverQuest. It causes way more problems than it solves.
No, dhalphir is right. It would be wonderful to have a raid full of altruistic people who trust eachother implicitly, but most raids don't have that, and if your raid does, any loot system will work just fine for you anyway.
Structure is good because it prevents impropriety (or the appearance of impropriety, which can be just as bad.) The challenge is implementing structure in a way that incentivizes the things you want to incentivize.
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
uuuuuuggggghhhhhhhh curse my sloth in undergrad calculus
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Could be wrong, though; this is all off the top of my head.
http://elitistjerks.com/blogs/binkenstein/234-bloodlust_execute_talents.html
I think I disagree with some of their assumptions, but I m having a really hard time showing why mathmatically.
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
The EJ maths has been done, its on the website somewhere. Its blocked at work, so I can't source it.
there is a summary over at Blessing of Kings, here
This is basically where it gets hard. Warriors, mages, and maybe other classes have mechanics that scale multiplicatively with haste within execute range. Execute range also causes some classes' rotations to change, which means you can't even compare their >35% numbers straight across.
The answer is probably that it's still best to use it in execute range, but not by as much as everyone thinks and maybe not by enough to outweigh the risk of people dying when considered vs. just blowing it at 95%.
edit: also, depends on raid comp.
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Bloodlust timing advice earlier tonight from our resident almost-always-on-something Swedish shaman.
We usually blow Bloodlust when the boss is around 35% since many classes have abilities which grant them bonus damage when a boss is below 30%.
His ideas intrigue me. I would like to subscribe to his newsletter.
Yeah, this can be a problem. :P
I think on fights where we'd rather blow bloodlust later we just do it at 50%, but most fights where I really care when we blow it have special circumstances beyond when its a simple dps increase.
this is the discussion we were just having, and there is significant physical evidence to prove that it does not make a difference when you blow lust.
In Sarth +Drakes we blow it right after the first lava wave that doesn't force the melee to run way the fuck away.